Veep Thoughts on Gun Control and the Second Amendment

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Let’s reject the false choice between the 2nd Amendment and reasonable gun safety laws.

We should do both.

– Vice President Kamala Harris via Twitter

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285 COMMENTS

  1. Notice how she fails to define both “gun violence” and “children.” Seek out your own definitions to better understand her comments. Ask yourself this: Is a 17 year old high-school drop out a child?

    • Not after he pulls the trigger. Then he’ll be charged and tried as an adult.

    • Probably can’t define what a woman is, either.
      Those lips of hers are good for only one thing. Ask Willie Brown what that is.😮

    • “Is a 17 year old high-school drop out a child?”

      No, that’s a “yoot”, who is one year shy of being a full-fledged “usual suspect”.

      • At least up to 19 and totally ignoring various auto accident related deaths in it’s entirety. Would also like to see the breakdown of gang related vs not gang related homicide for victims with and without gang affiliation. I know it is hilariously overrepresented gang related for both victim and shooter here in NY but the national numbers would be interesting.

    • They include 15-21-year-old gang bangers as kids who love to kill each other for a bigger slice of the drug pie.

  2. More leftist nonsense. They confuse simple minded people by using feelings as substitute for facts. Children under 12 it’s car accidents, suffocation and drowning, if you include 13-18 year old the stats change to congenital defects or abnormalities.

    • “if you include 13-18 year old the stats change to congenital defects or abnormalities”

      So you’re saying birth defects are the leading cause of death for “13–18 year old”?

      Fascinating, I would certainly enjoy learning more from the source you rely upon for your assertion.

        • “sweeties“

          Weird, I get more passes by guys on this forum than anywhere else.
          I think there is a more appropriate venue for y’all, I think it’s called ‘Grindr’.

        • I love how the forum Progressive insults people by insinuating they’re gay. I’ve noticed that’s a recurring theme by Miner. He’s done the same to me before.

        • I mean, I’m not surprised that you’re not finding a lot of luck in the dating world. I AM surprised that you think anyone here wants you though….

        • MINOR Miner49er, No one in their right mind would give you a “pass”. You are a fake.

      • MINOR Miner49er, Clearly you do NOT read at high school level. Did you really read what the man wrote? Or are you twisting the words to fit your anti-gun radical agenda? He did NOT say that congenital defects were a leading cause of deaths for any age. He used the words IF and INCLUDE.

      • @Miner49er: source CDC, do your own research. And yeah, kids with CF, MS, MD CCA, most likely die before adult. How many adults do you know with Cystic Fibrosis?

        • Will have to dig through that I thought that was just under 1 year with unintentional injury (largely traffic accidents) being the leading cause category up to the 45+ age groups. Then again how the data is grouped can change a lot of what shows up.

  3. Repeat that lie often enough it will morph into fact.
    Emotional reasoning, confirmation bias and the availability heuristic being manipulated by the cult of personality. Don’t look into anything yourselves, they’ll tell us what we believe, praise us for agreeing and ostracize those who don’t thereby tribalizing the believers.

  4. I would say something about limiting her free speech, but I have heard her speak and y’all would think I was for gun control.

    • “I dont know exactly what is racist”

      Just ask your local Republican officials, they are very familiar with racism:

      “Okla. Sheriff and County Officials Caught on Recording Discussing Lynching Black People and Killing Journalists

      The Oklahoma Sheriffs’ Association announced that Sheriff Kevin Clardy, Sheriff’s Investigator Alicia Manning and Trust Administrator Larry Hendrix have been suspended from the association

      By Corin Cesaric Published on April 19, 2023 03:34 PM

      “They don’t have a G– d— clue what they’re getting into,” Jennings says. “Not this day and age. I’m gonna tell you something. If it was back in the day, when Alan Marston would take a damn Black guy and whoop their ass and throw him in the cell? I’d run for f—–g sheriff.”

      “Yeah. Well, It’s not like that nomore,” Clardy responds.

      (Marston was the McCurtain County Sheriff in the 1980s, according to The Oklahoman.)

      “I know,” Jennings says. “Take them down to Mud Creek and hang them up with a damn rope. But you can’t do that anymore. They got more rights than we got.”

      https://people.com/crime/oklahoma-sheriff-county-officials-caught-recording-lynching-black-people-killing-journalists/

      And continuing Donald Trump’s statement that a free press is the “enemy of the people”, these Republican officials were also planning to kill journalists investigating their corruption.

      • Do you have to take a moron pill every morning in order to sustain your level of idiot? OR is just cashing a Soros troll check sufficient?

      • minor49iq…Why are you complaining? Everything they spewed came from your party the democRat Party. The party that owns the legacy of slavery, segregation, Jim Crow, lynching, the kkk, Eugenics, Gun Control and other race based atrocities.
        Looking at the whole picture what you present equates to a gnat fart in a football stadium.
        Cease with lame attempts to rewrite history…Man up and hold your Rat party liable for Monetary Reparations.

        • “Everything they spewed came from your party the democRat Party. The party that owns the legacy of slavery”

          I understand that you folks have difficulty understanding that as the years go by things change and political parties values and core beliefs morph over time.

          You might want to learn more about Richard Nixon and the Republican’s ‘Southern Strategy’ of the ‘60s, a careful study of the historical text might prove enlightning.

          And the fact is, these racists are Republicans, no attempt at appealing to past labels will change the fact that current elected Republican officials discussed hiring hitmen to kill journalists who were exposing their corruption and lamented the fact that they could no longer Lynch Negroes with impunity.

          That is the very definition of ‘systemic racism’.

          Perhaps if you folks had some of those ‘critical race theory’ classes in college, you would learn a little bit about how racist officials in the system abuse minority citizens without any consequence.

        • LOL no they didn’t miner gun grabbing jim crow vs gun grabbing democrats with rino lackeys. Any morphing of the party structure is cosmetic. Now constituents changed a bit but hey who would have thought democrats would support elite big business that relied on slave labor over domestic citizen workers………..oh wait.

        • “Perhaps if you folks had some of those ‘critical race theory’ classes…”

          I didn’t see any evidence of abusing “minority citizens without any consequence.” I saw a recorded conversation that sounded racist, but it wouldn’t be “systemic” racism by definition since the entire commission wasn’t behind it. That was one commissioner talking who got busted by another commissioner. Also, no abuse took place, and it looks like they’re already facing consequences.

          Systemic and institutional racism gets thrown around way too much because they’re political talking points for the Left. Like most propaganda, there is a sliver of truth to it. It’s funny how people don’t see the irony of the institutional racism talking point when Democrats control most of our institutions (and have done so for decades).

      • Unlike democrats protecting their own I’m pretty sure most here think that those racist idiots should be held accountable and fired from their positions in law enforcement.

    • “support of repealing the 19th“

      Why do so many Republicans stand on the street corners preaching their support of the Constitution, when they actually detest the Constitution and wish it did not get in the way of their authoritarian rule.

  5. Wrong the number one killer of children in the United States of America is Democrats through abortion.

    • The irony is the fools have murdered millions of their core constituency. Nieve/idiot blacks have been the core misguided voters of the demtard party since LBJ purchased them in the 1960s.

  6. My Vega was the fastest vehicle in the High School Parking Lot*

    * if you include bicycles and dis-qualify anything over 4 cylinders and with a working transmission.

    • That’s pretty good, unicorn, pretty good indeed. Definitely shines light on the stuff we are hearing from gun control folks.

    • Had a 71 Vega fastback, 500HP big block, four speed, narrowed 9 inch Ford rear end w/4:33 gears, ran low 10s high 9s @ high 120s/low 130s mph 1/4 mile… Pure terror on the streets of Southern CA in the late 70s… It was pretty much THE fastest vehicle in ANY parking lot…

      • One of my high school buddies who lived on my street had a Vega. Not fully souped up like yours was, but cool enough for me to remember it all these decades later.

        Yup, SoCal back in the day (’80s for me) was a great place to be.

        • I had a 66 Mustang with a 302. Loved being able to get green gas at the Shell station in Canoga Park. Racing fuel at a loca gas station for 85 cents a gallon. Pricy stuff! 😁 Fun Times. Wednesday night’s in Van Nuys cruising the blvd and street racing blocks away. Everyone got along with surfers an low rider’s all showing off their cars and bikes.

        • Used to do S. LA twice a week took on Big Willie a couple of times when he ran the 65 GTO with the big block Chevy, Left in 82, stuff was just starting to get stupid around then, cops were cranking hard on street racing, fun times were coming to an end… Gulf “race gas” and Sunoco “260” for go juice, Av Gas 115/145 for race nites…

        • Yeah MADDMAXX I was talking about the same time period. 1977 to 1982. Cops started being jerks and the cruise was on it’s way to being shut down. I still am fond of the days Mexicans and surfers enjoyed each other’s pride and joy being on display. Buddy of mine used to have a Suzuki GS1100. He would give anyone an eighth of a mile head start in a quarter mile race. Those days were so much fun! He was about 50/50 in all the races I saw.

        • 😜Meanwhile, back at the ranch…

          My younger brother had a souped up Omni Shelby. He would stop at the local station to get half a tank of Turbo Blue (something like that) at ~$3 per gallon, then meet his buddies at the local strip to burn it up. I swear he used some of that stuff in the 3-wheeler races at the county fair, but he denies it. This was midwestern farm country. We did the best we could to keep up.

        • I learned to drive on my parents’ Mustang with performance 302 block and a (get this) 4-speed manual transmission. Monster power and tall gears made it easy for me as a teenager (borrowing Mom Haz’s Mustang for a, uh, trip to the store and definitely not to a friend’s house along the way) to race Corvettes and Panteras off the stoplight.

          Again, SoCal suburbia in the ’80s was great. Makes today’s Democrat takeover and transformation into Crapafornia all the more sad.

        • Got my “education” on farm equipment, first (around age 10/11) on an old Ford tractor then at 14 got my shot in a 48 Studebaker pick up with a three-speed column shift… Took my road test (including parallel parking) in 61 Ford Galaxy “Starliner”… Drove a 55 Chevy w/265 power pac to school first “muscle car” was a 65 tri-power 4-speed GTO…

        • “Got my “education” on farm equipment,…”

          Got mine from the lady 3 doors down who’s hubby spent a lot of time on the west coast for work… 🙂

        • That “education” came from the proverbial “Farmers Daughter” lived down the road, two years older, I was 15… We had been “practicing” for a couple of years prior and helped with the cows during breeding season before that… (1600 pound steer around a female in heat was a bitch to control)…

    • My sister had a Vega, I feared for my life every time I rode in that bucket. Another had a Nova, another failed attempt at an economy car. Now people refer to that as a “classic car” Pulleeze.

      • Nobody cared about economy cars in the 60s early 70s… 68 Nova w/375 hp (under rated) 396 was bad ass…

  7. Ralph Yarl
    Kaylin Gillis
    Payton Washington & Heather Roth
    Kinsley White, Ashley Hilderbrand, &William White

    All shot by scared or angry guys “defending” their car or property. Because the guy with the gun gets to determine when their emotions say it’s time to shoot.

    That’s the truth

    That’s the truth

    • Hilarious how a gal who put a multitude of black men in prison for pot believes “she” has moral authority! Any of you long term TTAG vets remember Robert Farago wax poetic about Kamaltoe being “the best looking attorney general in America”??? 🙄🙃😀

      • “a gal who put a multitude of black men in prison for pot“

        So let me get this straight, you’re complaining because as a prosecutor she did her duty and followed the law, prosecuting offenders?

        And you would rather have had her ignore the law as it was written and passed?

        Still beating that “law and order” horse are you?

        • She’s a soulless hypocrite who stands for nothing other than moving up the ladder. She bragged about being the law and order AG when she thought that was popular. The moment the mood changed, she was very pro-criminal.

        • The same “prosecutor” who admitted on a national radio show that SHE broke the law by smoking pot in college?

          And you would rather have had her ignore the law as it was written and passed?

          Why not? Soros funded “prosecutors” across the country are ignoring violent crimes daily and I don’t see YOU complaining about that…

        • “So let me get this straight, you’re complaining because as a prosecutor she did her duty and followed the law, prosecuting offenders?”

          Considering the bitch admitted to smoking weed around the same time period yes all while listening to a rapper that hadn’t hadn’t yet appeared on the scene. She’s a fucking liar you know it we know it.

        • “So let me get this straight…”

          We’re waiting for this, but no ‘bated breath on our side…

    • All shot by scared or angry guys “defending” their car or property

      And a jury will make the final decision on their stupidity…

      • “And a jury will make the final decision on their stupidity… “

        And indeed a jury did make the final decision, and Sergeant Perry is going to prison in Texas.

        • For the crime of removing a fascist storm trooper from the ranks of the fascist left.

          We see what side you are on, miner.

        • That isn’t over til it’s over, he was found guilty by the very same people he was defending himself from in Austin Tx (aka: LA East)… Pretty much like Trump trying to get a fair jury in Manhattan..

    • The truth is that crime happens. Punishing me by curtailing my civil rights because of what another individual did that I had no part in is the very definition of fascism.

    • There will be more mistakes as clueless gun owners, convinced they need big bore fire power by violent marketing from the firearms industry, will shoot first ask questions later.

      And now the gun nut incels are just shooting the pretty girls out of hand.

      In my world, if an attractive cheerleader sits down in my passenger seat, we’ll be having dinner later that evening.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=__tDRRJGDbg

      • @Miner49er

        “In my world, if an attractive cheerleader sits down in my passenger seat, we’ll be having dinner later that evening.”

        🤣

        If an attractive cheerleader sits down in your passenger seat they will be about 10 years old.

        Just because the charges got reduced last time doesn’t mean you will be as lucky next time.

      • “convinced they need big bore fire power by violent marketing from the firearms industry,”

        I used to think that you at least weren’t dacian. Now I think you ghost write for each other.

      • MajorLiar,

        “In my world, if an attractive cheerleader sits down in my passenger seat, we’ll be having dinner later that evening.”

        In your effing dreams, toad-face. You haven’t known the touch of a woman in your life. You talking about “incels” is comedy gold, you trashbag. Don’t own a mirror, do you???

        Yes, some people sometimes do stupid things with firearms . . . and with cars, and with many other things. What you don’t seem to grasp is that the rational people in the world would rather deal with that (very remote) risk than have drooling morons like you, dacian the demented, Senile Joe, Kamal-Toe the Kneepad Queen, Malig-Nancy, or Eric Swallowswell telling us what/how/when we are allowed to be armed or defend ourselves.

        Haven’t managed to suck-start that shotgun, yet, have you MajorLiar????

    • And they should be dealt with for their actions. Now tell me what that has to do with me and my weapons. Not a fucking thing so piss off!

    • Great! We get to take away your 1st Amendment rights because commie antifa say they want to destroy the country.

      See how that works??

    • And the hits just keep coming!

      “A North Carolina man allegedly shot a 6-year-old girl, her parents and an additional neighbor after a basketball rolled into his yard.

      Local and federal law are still searching for the suspect, who was also charged with assaulting his girlfriend with a sledgehammer in December.“

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qwzW486AUhw

      • And? If anything it says more about letting violent people out of jail early being a bad idea.

        • For sure, SAFE.

          “Singletary is wanted on four counts of attempted first-degree murder, one count of possession of a firearm by a felon and two counts of assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill or inflicting serious injury.”

          Now let’s find out how a convicted felon procured a firearm. I’ve heard that it’s against the law.

        • I think you have to much faith in jail and rehabilitation.
          A truly violent person will always be violent no matter how many years they have spent behind bars.

        • LOL rehabilitation? LOL early release? Smooth you must have me confused with someone who thinks leopards change their spots. There is a small minority of offenders that can turn things around and if they don’t fuck up bad enough to justify 20-life or execution good for them. Otherwise fuck them if they are murdering, raping, arsoning or otherwise severely impacting the lives of innocent victims. Ultimately if they cannot be put down keeping them locked up until they either age out (35-45 for most) or geriatric out (so old they are a threat to the most unaware) is about the best that we can do.

        • Smooth Criminal, I have NO faith in prison to rehabilitate anyone. If you want to rehabilitate, you have to do it yourself. Prison offers the programs, the convict has to do the work.

      • Then there’s the guy in Maine: A 34-year-old man shot and killed his parents and their two friends at a home in Bowdoin, Maine days after his release from the Windham Correctional Facility in Maine on April 14 after serving a sentence for aggravated assault… He went on to randomly shoot three others as they drove south on Interstate 295 in Yarmouth… Wonder how many “gun-laws” this clown ignored to ILLEGALLY acquire a firearm and then proceed to ignore several more state and federal laws in commission of those MURDERS and ASSAULTS with a deadly weapon, I’ll bet he was really concerned as he ILLEGALLY acquired that gun and as he ILLEGALLY “MURDERED” four people with it and then as he ILLEGALLY discharged that firearm into cars moving at highway speeds on the Interstate that he might get in trouble, but he DID it anyway… I know, let’s make MORE fucking laws then we can add more charges when some asshole ignores THEM…

      • MINOR Miner49er. What’s your point? Seems you Lefties refuse to do anything about the criminals or the mentally ill. You Lefties want no bail for accused criminals and refuse to admit that the HIPPA law stands in the way of preventing a mentally ill person from being able to buy a gun.
        Sir, (term used advisedly) with all due respect, you and your kind are the MAJOR part of the problem.
        What you really want is control over the population with your draconian laws to prevent people from being able to defend themselves from your criminal buddies oppression.

    • In a population of 350 million there are always going to be a few idiots. With such a large population events that have a low statistical probability of happening may happen with alarming frequency.

      You can’t legislate against stupidity or evil. Odds are it’s the former more than the latter.

      • Southern,

        “In a population of 350 million there are always going to be a few idiots.”

        True – why, right here in our little community on TTAG, we get to deal with MajorLiar and dacian the demented on a regular basis.

  8. Deep thoughts with Que Mala

    I don’t think that we should underestimate what voter ID laws could mean. Because in some people’s mind, that means you’re going to have to Xerox or photocopy your ID to send it in to prove who you are. Well, there are a whole lot of people, especially people who live in rural communities, who don’t – there’s no Kinkos, there’s no OfficeMax near them.

    We should make a picture book for Que Mala, and explain real slow like how the modern world works. It’s crazy that was the only thing holding her back from supporting voter ID. She wouldn’t be disingenuous, would she?

    Next up: picture books about gunz and violence. Then we can do systemic racism.

    • “Number one after abortions… “

      You consider an unborn fetus as “children”?

      So you oppose the free exercise of religion by observant Jews?

      How very… conservative of you.

      “Does Jewish law state that life begins at conception? No, life does not begin at conception under Jewish law. Sources in the Talmud note that the fetus is “mere water” before 40 days of gestation. Following this period, the fetus is considered a physical part of the pregnant individual’s body, not yet having life of its own or independent rights. The fetus is not viewed as separate from the parent’s body until birth begins and the first breath of oxygen into the lungs allows the soul to enter the body.
       Does Jewish law assert that it is possible to murder a fetus? No, Jewish law does not consider a fetus to be alive. The Torah, Exodus 21:22-23, recounts a story of two men who are fighting and injure a pregnant woman, resulting in her subsequent miscarriage. The verse explains that if the only harm done is the miscarriage, then the perpetrator must pay a fine. However, if the pregnant person is gravely injured, the penalty shall be a life for a life as in other homicides. The common rabbinical interpretation of this verse is that the men did not commit murder and that the fetus is not a person. The primary concern is the well-being of the person who was injured.“

      https://www.ncjw.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Judaism-and-Abortion-FINAL.pdf

      • Wait you actually care about what religious jews have to say? Since when did you value religion or is this just more pilpul from you?

        • Unlike you, I support the Constitution’s guarantee of no government interference with folks’ religious beliefs.

          “I have the right to disagree with you…”

          Yes you do, Ain’t America grand!

          “Do YOU oppose my right to the free exercise of whatever religion I choose?“

          Nope, place your faith in whatever delusion comforts you.

          Unless those beliefs infringe upon another person’s liberties, that’s why we have the judicial system in order to decide the conflicts.

        • So ……….religious beliefs allowing murder/rape/genocide are good to go? Yeah I think you are pushing a rope with this argument guy. I get you are trying to argue nuance and unlike dacian you do have the beginning of a point but ultimately it will be a state’s right issue as abortion is not covered in the bill of rights and typically illegal activities are tricky calls under religious freedom. And it looks like another poster has a deeper knowledge base on this than either of us so we shall see how you go with this one.

        • “Unlike you, I support the Constitution’s guarantee of no government interference with folks’ religious beliefs.”
          But not all of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights correct? Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Does a fetus have no life? Is a Human fetus not going to bring forth a human child? Play all the word games you like. Fetus, clump of cells in the end a human fetus is a human child that has a right to live.

        • “So ……….religious beliefs allowing murder/rape/genocide are good to go?“

          Perhaps you should have read the entirety of my post, then you would’ve seen this paragraph:

          “Unless those beliefs infringe upon another person’s liberties, that’s why we have the judicial system in order to decide the conflicts.“

          The fact is, almost every religion on earth has commanded the killing of innocent people, from the Canaanites, Midianites, etc. to the Jews, gypsies etc.

          If we followed our friend Debbie’s belief, the Democrats own the legacy of slavery because 150 years ago the slavers were Democrats, then the Christians here today own every death from the Inquisition, the crusades, etc.

          “The sins of the father shall be visited upon the sons, even to the seventh generation”

          That’s why the founding fathers made sure there was no religion in the constitution, and formally declared under the treaty of Tripoli that the United States is not and never has been a nation formed on Christian principles.

        • “But not all of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights correct? Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness“

          Hey Mr. constitutional scholar, neither the Constitution or the Bill of Rights contains the phrase “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness“.

          Comrade, your handler needs to school you on the American system of government in order to not compromise your cover.

          “a human fetus is a human child“

          No, a fetus is a fetus and a child is a child. And you claimed federal law made a fetus a person, and I schooled you on that one showing you the exact federal law declaring that a fetus is not a person until they are actually born.

          I understand your feelings, but feelings aren’t law.

        • Started with nuance ended with nunce. Worth a try still don’t have the articulate miner back.

        • Please you idiot, The Declaration of Independence is an extremely important document along with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

      • So now you’re a big fan of the Jewish faith? How does that affect my “non-Jewish” beliefs? You can believe anything you want to believe but this is NOT N Korea, China or Russia which means I have the right to disagree with you… Do YOU oppose my right to the free exercise of whatever religion I choose? How very “leftist” of YOU…

        In Judaism, views on abortion draw primarily upon the legal and ethical teachings of the Hebrew Bible, the Talmud, the case-by-case decisions of responsa, and other rabbinic literature. While all major Jewish religious movements allow or encourage abortion in order to save the life of a pregnant woman, authorities differ on when and whether it is permitted in other cases.

      • minor49iq…Since you care so much about Jews how can you wallow around in Gun Control, an agenda History Confirms is rooted in racism and genocide?

        I hate to rain on your long parade of demoCrap but History Confirms a Black American belonging to the democRat Party makes as much sense as a Jew belonging to the nazi party. In other words…You bozo, Have No Podium.

      • Classic straw man, and basic, ignorant arguments…

        “So you oppose the free exercise of religion by observant Jews?”

        Aborting a baby is NOT the exercise of the Jewish religion. You haven’t listing anything showing otherwise. You either don’t comprehend your own copy and paste, or you’re hoping no one will notice your lies. Which is it?

        I find it hilarious whenever a professed atheist uses religious texts to try and defend their positions. By your own account, those texts are completely meaningless. That means you’re extremely desperate. Either way, it isn’t really relevant because we don’t live under a theocracy.

        The Talmud was written 1500 years ago. That was their scientific understanding of the fetus. Are you saying we should “follow the science” from 1500 years ago? OR are you saying that we should outlaw all abortions after 40 days? Those are serious questions, btw.

        RE: Exodus 21:22-23
        “The common rabbinical interpretation is that…the fetus is not a person.”

        That is NOT the common interpretation of that verse. If there is no life, then there is no value. The fact that there’s a punishment means there is value, which means there is life. This particular verse also mentions the woman giving birth prematurely. It isn’t as cut and dry as you make it out to be. It’s a silly pro-abortion tactic pushed by atheists like you. This verse isn’t even about murder. It’s about a pregnant woman being struck while “men are fighting.” The Scripture clearly differentiates between assault, murder, and manslaughter. Special areas were even setup for people to live in safety so the victim’s family wouldn’t avenge their death (in a manslaughter case). You didn’t get the death penalty if you didn’t intend to kill someone. The punishment had to fit the crime. That’s called justice.

        • “Aborting a baby is NOT the exercise of the Jewish religion“

          I showed where the Jewish religion does not consider abortion a murder, and believes that the mother has the ultimate right of decision over the fetus until it is actually born.

          To force a Jewish person to carry a fetus to full-term without their permission would be involuntary servitude, under the tenants of their religion they may do whatever they like with the fetus until it is born.

          And the Lord God himself advocates abortion in cases of adultery, you don’t know your Bible if you’re not familiar with the concept of “bitter waters”.

          “uses religious texts to try and defend their positions“

          I’m just pointing out that your religious belief about when a fetus becomes a person conflicts with the Jewish religion’s concept of when a fetus becomes a person, and you are trying to inflict your religious views upon the entire population of the United States by advocating an abortion ban.

          It is unconstitutional for Congress to pass a law that forces observant Jews to ignore the Talmud and follow the evangelical view of the conception of life.

          That’s not surprising, it’s just more conservative big government, attempting to insert government into citizens private lives in order to force particular religious views upon the population.

        • False. You only said the Tamud states a fetus is water for the first 40 days. Where does the Jewish religious text say “the mother has the ultimate right of decision over the fetus until it is actually born?” Now you’re just making things up.

          “I’m just pointing out that your religious belief about when a fetus becomes a person conflicts with the Jewish religion’s concept of when a fetus becomes a person…”

          Breaking news. I’m not Jewish. Even if I was, all you showed was some 1500 year-old Jewish text that says a fetus is water for the first 40 days. Are you advocating for no abortion after 40 days, Miner? Do you believe a fetus is water for the first 40 days, Miner? You don’t even believe that yourself, do you? Don’t you ever get tired of being a disingenuous person?

          “It is unconstitutional for Congress to pass a law that forces observant Jews to ignore the Talmud”

          LOL! Is that the best you could come up with? Does the Talmud say you should abort your child? Please show me where it says that. This should be good.

          “…big government attempting…to force particular religious views upon the population.”

          What is the number one directive of any government, Miner? It’s to protect the citizens. There isn’t a more vulnerable person in the world than an unborn baby. Is being against murder forcing my religious views on you? Do you really believe that?

        • Miner,
          We both know you don’t care for religion. We both know you aren’t out there trying to be some pro-Orthodox Judaism champion. Let’s drop the pretenses and keep it real. Being for or against abortion doesn’t have to be related to religion.

          I think you want vulnerable people to be protected. I truly believe you want what’s best for both mothers and their children. There’s a lot of misinformation out there about abortion due to the political nature of the topic. Whatever your political or religious orientations, can we agree that it’s best to be fully informed about all topics?

          Please check the below link with an open, curious mind to see what some other Progressives think about abortion. It’s a lie that only Republicans and the religious oppose abortion.

          Progressive Anti-Abortion Uprising
          https://paaunow.org/

        • “Where does the Jewish religious text say “the mother has the ultimate right of decision over the fetus until it is actually born?”

          Perhaps you missed this text I quoted in one of my posts above:

          “Sources in the Talmud note that the fetus is “mere water” before 40 days of gestation. Following this period, the fetus is considered a physical part of the pregnant individual’s body, not yet having life of its own or independent rights“

          You also might want to consider these passages from the Talmud:

          “What is the reason for Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi’s position [in the above conversation]? He holds that a fetus is considered as its mother’s thigh.”
          Talmud Gittin 23b

          “If a woman is having trouble giving birth, they cut up the child in her womb and brings it forth limb by limb, because her life comes before the life of [the baby]. But if the greater part has come out, one may not touch it, for one may not set aside one person’s life for that of another.”
          Mishnah Oholot 7:6

          “As the entire time that that it has not gone out into the air of the world, it is not [considered] a life, and [so] it is possible to kill it and to save its mother. But when its head came out, we cannot touch it to kill it, as it is like a born [baby]; and we do not push off one life for the sake of another.”
          Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki, 11th c.) on the previous Mishnah

          “God formed the human from the dust of the earth. God blew into the human’s nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being.” (Genesis 2:7)

          “This, indeed, is one of the negative mitzvot – not to take pity on the life of a rodef (murderous pursuer). On this basis, our Sages ruled that when complications arise and a pregnant woman cannot give birth, it is permitted to abort the fetus in her womb, whether with a knife or with drugs. For the fetus is considered a rodef of its mother.”
          Maimonides (12th c.) Mishneh Torah, Murderer and the Preservation of Life 1:9

          “Mental-health risk has been definitely equated with physical-health risk. This woman, in danger of losing her mental health unless the pregnancy is interrupted, would therefore accordingly qualify.”
          Rabbi Mordechai Winkler (1845-1932)

          “It is clear that abortion is not permitted without reason. That would be destructive and frustrative of the possibility of life. But for a reason, even if it is a slim reason, such as to prevent disgrace, then we have precedent and authority to permit it.”
          Rabbi Ben Zion Chai Uziel, (1880-1953)

          https://www.ncjw.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/What-Judaism-Really-Teaches-About-Abortion-.pdf

          Under Jewish law, an abortion to “preserve mental health” or avoid “disgrace” is permitted.

        • “Perhaps you missed this text I quoted in one of my posts above”

          Miner, that isn’t a direct quote from the Talmud. You’re quoting someone’s personal analysis/opinion. Show me the direct quote from the Talmud that says, “the mother has the ultimate right of decision over the fetus until it is actually born.” Give me the exact quote and where to find it. Even the other opinions you just posted said that abortion isn’t permitted without reason.

          Let’s say Orthodox Jews were permitted to abort babies at any time without reason. Aborting the baby still wouldn’t be a Jewish religious custom or practice, therefore banning abortion wouldn’t conflict with Jews practicing their religion. Something being permitted is not the same as something being required.

          Some jurisdictions will allow you to carry a gun. Sometimes you are only permitted to carry under certain circumstances. That does not mean that you have to carry. No one is forcing you to carry. No one is forcing Jews to disobey their religion.

        • @Miner49er

          “I showed where the Jewish religion does not consider abortion a murder, and believes that the mother has the ultimate right of decision over the fetus until it is actually born.”

          No, you didn’t show that and no the Jewish religion doesn’t believe the mother has the ultimate right of decision over the fetus until it is actually born.

          Ignoring your very broad and incorrect assertion of “Jewish religion” and your lack of including context and failing to understand the nuances and you including your own confirmation bias … for a moment just ignoring that…

          The “Jewish religion” (‘Jewish Law’) approach to abortion is:

          1. Under normal circumstances it is forbidden to take the life of an unborn child, and it may be akin to and possibly be considered murder (depending on the stage of pregnancy and birth – see note below).

          2. As long as the unborn remains a fetus, it does not have a status of personhood equal to its mother, and therefore may be sacrificed to save the life of the mother.

          3. In any case where abortion may be necessary, it is of paramount importance to consult halachic and medical experts as soon as possible.

          (Note for #1: After 6 months of pregnancy, when the fetus may be viable, abortion is considered “possible murder” and it is permitted to abort only when the mother’s life is endangered, as the fetus is classified as a rodef. Between 40 days and 6 months of pregnancy, the fetus is considered a “developing life” thus abortion may be considered ‘possible murder’. Before 40 days it is considered “potential life”. Aborting during these last two time periods abortion may be permitted under certain circumstances that override “developing life” and “potential life” and an expert Rabbi needs to be consulted to make the determination and if not permitted after that consultation its considered “murder” if an abortion takes place.)

          Now on the other hand, if you are speaking of the left-wing liberalism that has invaded the “Jewish religion” and chosen to ignore the Talmud teachings (‘Jewish Law’) in favor of their own self serving ‘definition’ then apparently those types are free to have abortions at will as a method of ‘birth control’ cause ‘I Feelz I have a right cause its me’ reasons.

        • Thanks for that explanation. I’m not that familiar with Judaism except where it overlaps with parts of the Old Testament. I knew they weren’t “pro-choice.” The above argument seems to be nothing more than an excuse for abortion because apparently the other excuses have now been exhausted.

      • “You consider an unborn fetus as “children”?”

        Yeah. 5000 year old “knowledge” of biology notwithstanding.

        I take it you eat grasshoppers but avoid pork? Lol, not likely!

        Your inner commie probably. waxes nostalgic over the ancient, bloodthirsty and currently 100% unenforced, even laughable Jewish laws regarding menstruation and working on Sabbath, tho…

        Have any free-abortion-on-demand “rationalists” taken note of the post-“revolution” demographic trends in Russia/China?

        Or do they ALL believe that the extinction of H sapiens is essential to “save the planet”?