Former New Jersey Governor turned lawyer/lobbyist James Florio reckons the Garden State’s civilian disarmament regime is a model for the rest of the country. Cultural shift, NRA wants to sell guns, public health epidemic, yada, yada, yada. “The first thing to remember is that this is not about the Second Amendment,” he asserts at nj.com. “All of the courts have clearly stated it is reasonable to impose restrictions on gun ownership and the types of guns available. Even Antonin Scalia conceded that.”
While it’s deeply regrettable that the Supreme Court’s McDonald decision contained a loophole OK’ing “reasonable restrictions” on firearms freedom, New Jersey’s gun control laws are about as “reasonable” as summary execution. A NJ resident has a better chance of winning the lottery than receiving a “may issue” carry permit — a prima facie unconstitutional provision in the first place.
So is it unreasonable to be concerned that 40 percent of gun owners are not subject to any background check when buying a gun? I don’t think so.
Is it unreasonable to conclude that no hunter needs 30, 50, 100 round clips for their firearms?
Is it unreasonable to question why someone on a terrorist watch list can’t board a plane but can buy a gun?
Is it unreasonable to question why we buy protective vests for police, then allow for the sale of cop killer bullets?
Yes, yes, yes and yes. The forty percent stat is bogus and irrelevant. The Second Amendment is not about hunting. The government’s secret, unaccountable terrorist watch list is the slippery slope to tyranny. Hollow-point bullets are not “cop killers” any more than more powerful rifle rounds are “cop killers.”
‘Nuff said? Apparently not.
Educators explained the impact of violence on children, at a time when the city of Paterson was traumatized by the gunshot death of a child. The clergy embraced this as the critical moral issue of their communities. Public safety officials spoke out: A prosecutor in Camden County explained how police would not go into sections of Camden because the bad guys had more firepower.
We organized events, editorial board meetings, wrote op-eds, and called upon legislators — inviting broad participation, which is the way democracy is supposed to work.
And we simplified the issue like this: Is it in the best interest of New Jersey to have greater access to Uzis and AK-47s?
The answer, virtually unanimously, was, “Of course not!”
Wikipedia: “On October 29, 2012, the FBI announced Camden was ranked first in violent crime per capita of cities with over 50,000 residents, surpassing Flint, Michigan.” Specifically, 2,566 violent crimes for every 100,000 people. New Jersey’s “assault weapons” ban took effect in 1990.
Anyway, once upon a time, support for slavery was “virtually unanimous” in the southern part of the United States. Marginalizing gun owners’ opposition to government infringement on their gun rights is to ignore the law of the land, to which Mr. Florio and his fellow legislators swore an oath.
Clearly, Governor Forio views the Constitution in the same way the Democratic platform does, as “a blueprint for progress.” Progress meaning the progress of the all-powerful state. New Jersey’s template for the rest of the country. No thanks.
Wait, I thought California was the model? Competition?
Makes me think of Youtube videos where a bunch of mostly drunk rednecks try to out-dumb-ass each other doing increasingly stupid shit to see who wins the Darwin Award.
“And the winner of the category ‘Abridging Civil Rights’ goes to Cali – wait! – breaking news! there’s now competition between the coasts in the race to totalitarian rule! Looks like California has some increasing competition from NJ, CT, MD, MA and, wait for it, the perennial favorite of blue-gov-idiocy, Chicago!”
Wonder what the door prize is for the winner?
>>Wonder what the door prize is for the winner?
Potentially a revolution.
First against the wall. Gonna need a bigger wall looks like.
Find a new whipping boy Mark-I can legally carry a gun in shall-issue Chicago. Yeah plenty of GFZ’s but you guys who don’t live here are CLUELESS…keep up.
The Left and right coasts have long been America’s armpits, but as I am rather fond of saying, Chicago is America’s third eye and determined to keep it that way. Nothing personal, just the way I see it.
Yeah? How’s that FOID card working out for you? How many gun stores in Chicago? Any extra local taxes on guns or ammo in Chicago? Assault weapons legal in the city and all suburbs? How about open carry?
Your contention that Chicago is better than the other states because IL became a shall issue state is true, but does not prove that Chicago is materially different from New York, Los Angeles, or any other large, blue-gov controlled city. Sadly, IL and Chicago residents still have many more firearms restrictions that most other states.
But you can get a really great hot dog in Chicago, and it’s a great place to visit, except in the winter.
Not even in the top 10 worst states Marky-you guys are clueless. Does it still suck? Yeah but not as much as all the ridiculous comments I see on TTAG…BTW everyone in Chiraq can just travel a few miles and get whatever. Keep up…maybe Curtis can weigh in.
Give it time. It took NJ and CA many years to become as bad as they are now. You have a Republican temporarily as governor thanks to horrific governance by the democrats; if he is reasonable and lasts 8 years, you may be ok, but once Democrats reestablish control they will push through more anti-gun legislation.
FWW – we are in agreement. Gun laws in Chicago (and IL) are NOT in the worst 10 states – not sure which of the bottom 40 you think is worse than IL/Chicago, but then I don’t know the laws in all states. So, I agree. Chicago is NOT in the top 10 worst places to own firearms. So, let’s agree that Chicago is number 11. That still means 39 states are better. Glad we agree on that. AND I warrant you are in at least the top 3 cities for tubular meats. Really was serious about that.
I don’t keep up with the laws of all different states, but there is one thing which I believe is pretty widespread and puts a state at the bottom of the list for me. That is, in order to own a gun, does the state have to have a record of your name and address? Because if so, you are still a slave, your supposed “rights” are only temporary.
It is indeed a very close contest, though until recently NJ was way ahead in the draconian Gun Control stakes. NJ is extremely restrictive of 2A rights and has been restrictive since the 1930s before other states jumped on the bandwagon. NJ currently restricts magazines to 15 rounds, but if not for Chris Christie vetoing the endless bills on guns from the legislature, it would have been 10, and if/when there is a Democrat governor, it will become 10 in a heartbeat. One’s gun rights outside the home and the range are extremely restricted, to the point that you need to show that you are going to the range in the most direct way possible, no stops in between and no pickup of a friend on the way. AWB is fully in effect and has all the wiggle room a zealous prosecutor needs to make someone’s life a living hell. Buying handguns is also restricted through an elaborate process of permits to purchase issued by the local police (90 day expiration renewable at its discretion by the same department for an additional 90) with requirements for letters from 2 people vouching for you and a letter from an employer(!!!). And even if all of that is fulfilled, it is very possible that the local department will treat you poorly and delay issuance far beyond the 30 day state limit. There is an additional criminal background check costing $20 on top of NICS to get the permits, though to use the permit you of course still have to pay and pass NICS. The Permits to purchase can only be used at the rate of 1 every 30 days. A Permit for Concealed Carry is essentially unobtainable for all but the politically connected.
Of course now CA is trying to outdo NJ, but I am sure NJ will do its best to catch up and exceed CA once the governor is a Democrat. If not for my job in Manhattan, no way would I live in NJ (NY and CT would have been better a while ago, but not anymore).
CT is way better. You can get a carry permit with no strnuous effort and you can carry, buy lots of thinggs, have a suppressor and more
That is not to say it is good but it is a world apart from nj and better than ny. jersey is basically like NYC
But how can you use a suppressor if you can’t have a threaded barrel?
You cannot thread a semiautomatic s barrel but you can a lever action
And I belive can have more than 10 rounds in it
Put a red dot on that and you have, well, a monstrosity that you cannot reload, an obamination, but you can suppress it
“which is the way democracy is supposed to work. ….. The answer, virtually unanimously, was, “Of course not!”
“Anyway, once upon a time, support for slavery was “virtually unanimous” in the southern part of the United States”
See, that’s the rub. These guys like to think it’s a democracy and that mob rule and utilitarianism should drive the laws. Well, sorry, that ain’t the case. This isn’t a democracy and our rights aren’t subject to social utility or majority rule. Heck, most of the protections are there to protect a minority from the majority.
NJ is a shithole. I really don’t want anything to do with them, and this self serving arrogance is why.
It wasn’t always a shit hole. Arrogant pricks like Kaine who refused to fight for liberty helped turned into the toxic waste dump it is today. And, to think, Washington crossed the Delaware that night to fight in New Jersey…
Same irony in MA….the birthplace of the American Revolution…the shot heard around the world….wouldn’t be a shocker if it was the first state to ban guns altogether at some point.
Kaine? Tim Kaine is from Virginia. I think you are reading too many Trump press releases.
Ex VA gov Kaine, like Christie, looks conservative when compared to the average NJ politician.
Florio is pretty typical there.
His main source of pride is getting an AWB passed in 1990, 4 years before Clintonites did it.
He meant Gov Thomas Kean, sounds similar.
I’m really beginning to hate these people. I think I could take up seal clubbing, instead of sport shooting, and hear less grief about it in the media, than owning a gun these days.
If violence to small critters is the way you have to go, possum puntin is a much more socially acceptable and wholesome hobby. At least it is around here.
I prefer armadillo bootin. They are even shaped like balls when you finally get them. Those possums and that snarl just unnerve me.
Possum got a mouth like an alligator. Long and lined with teeth. Thankfully he ain’t too bright.
Way way back when I lived in the Ozarks and had my first street bike (Yamaha FZ-1) I ran over a possum at o’dark thirty on the way home one night. New nickname: Possum Killa.
Fast forward about 7 or 8 years, not quite so late at night but close enough, exiting a curve just outside town, ran over an armadillo. New nickname: Dilla Killa.
In case some of you folks are wondering, a ‘dillo is just a crunchier version of a possum at 85 mph.
Now I’m in Georgia, where both critters are even more plentiful. Lately though, I’ve had more close encounters with loose calves in the road than small critters. Car or bike, you don’t want to hit a calf. Ruin your day, ruin your car, probably worse on the bike.
I’ll never forget asking the officer at the desk in the Cranford PD about paperwork for a FOID card and his immediate response being “what do YOU need a gun for?” (in as snidely an condescending a voice as you can imagine)
nj blows. its beaches are vastly overrated, the weather is horrible, the taxes are horrible….about its only high point are the plethora of diners to choose from.
The armpit of America.
Tony Soprano always had a gun.
Ditto for NYC. Last time I went back, I could feel the increasing oppression as we started our final approach into JFK.
“what do YOU need a gun for?” (in as snidely an condescending a voice as you can imagine)
“‘Cause I sure can’t count on the likes of you corrupt, doughnut-scarfing, bloviating jerks for protection!”
And that right there is one of the biggest reasons why people who talk like Florio are always missing the mark by miles.
They can wax poetic all you want about “how great and secure” things look, but at the end of the day it’s all too fluid.
Reasonable deviation? Justifiable need? Any of that make sense? Not to me. Technically it’s illegal to stop for gas on the way to the range? I can’t pick up my buddy to drive together? Fuck outta here. None of that is “common sense gun safety”.
It’s all subjective and NONE of it is standardized across the state. You get a slapnuts behind the desk like the person you spoke to in Cranford and meanwhile out in Warren county they tell residents to file and keep a gun in the house for security. You can get an FID in days in some places and months in others. Some PDs will notify your employer, others will not.
One of the many problems with NJ law is that it is unclear, so that an obnoxious jerk like the officer you encountered, can make you life difficult, and you have to restrain yourself if you want to ever get those permits. While in Westfield, the next town over, so far, permits have always been handled quickly and professionally. Still a pain to have to go through the pointless extra process, but at least I have thus far been dealing with reasonable people. Maybe the difference is because Mayor and every member of Westfield town council are Republican…
Leon, do you by any chance use the Union County range?
The degradation of our 2nd Amendment rights is the canary in the coal mine. Next comes the 2nd, 4th, 5th you name it. Progs only think of the constitution as a piece of paper written by dead white guys. Progs know how you should live.
Hate to break this to you, but Patriot has made The Constitution and Bill of Rights, toilet paper, found in a tree.
Fedzilla has a secret group, that goes before a secret court, with a secret judge, in secret, presenting secret evidence, and voila! The entirety of your rights just vanish with no oversight, other than their own of course….
John, hate to be the one to break this to you, but much of the Bill of Rights has already been shredded. There were many canaries in the coalmine along the way, recall the government scrapping due process in War on Drugs? The War on Terror has put some final touches on our liberty loss, with gun PRIVILEGES under steady, constant duress from the powers that be.
We’re the model! We’ve got the plan! This is how you do gun control!
And apparently not a single one of these (FLAME DELETED) have ever read the Constitution or the Second Amendment.
Shaneen Allen can attest to that.
And the value of any legal issue, to a lawyer, does not exist until it has been written down and codified. Only at that point can a lawyer begin earning his keep by figuring out how to parse the codified language or find the semantic loopholes that allow him/her to circumvent the intent of the law.
Good guys see a good law and do everything they can to abide by it. Good guys see a bad law and do everything they can to not comply without going to jail. Lawyers see laws, and contracts (the Constitution is a social contract) and ask, “How can I get someone to pay me to find a way to use this to their advantage, find a logic loophole, or subvert it with a reasonable legal defense should they be indicted?”
Blah, blah, blah…..
Just bring on the constitutional convention and let’s settle this peacefully and decisively. The stale, socialist, slave states can go their way, disarm their people, and beat the living crap out of the welfare dependent imbeciles who choose to stay, for all I care.
The vibrant, freedom-loving, wealth-generating, capitalist states can leave, form New America, and be armed to our harmonious teeth. What’s the problem?
America is slouching towards Gomorrah. It has become an ungovernable empire, a house divided against itself which cannot and should not stand.
Sodom and Gomorrah was a story of hospitality. Gun owners get none of that in the garden state.
Hospitality? So if you have two angels in your home as guest, and a homosexual mob shows up demanding you turn them iver so they can be raped, you consider that “hospitality?”
Sodom and Gomorrah was a cautionary tale about depravity. Gun owners get plenty of that in the garden state. America’s depravity extends far beyond the topic of firearms, though, and is a nation overripe for disunion.
That’s the way I’ve treated every angel who ever showed up at my house. Is that wrong? What have you done all those times? /sarc
There is no such thing.
Yes hospitality. The traveling Angels had guest rights which were supposed to be inviolate, to the point that the more moral act was to offer up his Daughters to be raped instead. Had the Angels been eta gets without guest rights there is no suggestion that raping them was out of the norm
Little tough on the women tho
Ah yes the morality of ancient times. But not these times.
“Model”? I guess that is why New Jersey’s crime rate is so low!
Is it unreasonable to question why someone on a terrorist watch list can’t board a plane but can buy a gun?
Yes, it’s reasonable to question that, but the part it’s reasonable to question is that if the person on the watch list has committed no indictable crime, how does the government justify depriving them without due process of their ability to fly commercially?
Freedom of movement is a fundamental right, and while other travel methods are available, commercial air travel is among the most common and effective ways of exercising that right.
“Freedom of movement is a fundamental right, and while other travel methods are available, commercial air travel is among the most common and effective ways of exercising that right.”
Self defense is a fundamental (natural,civil and Constitutionally protected) right, and while other means of defense are available, firearms are the most common and effective way to exercise that right.
Yep, the logic works.
While a clearly fundamental right, freedom of movement is not covered by the Constitution in any of its amendments; the right to bear arms is, probably because no one envisioned the possibility of a no fly list in 1789 and pretty much since. It is clearly wrong to allow bureaucrats who are incentivized to err on the side of caution to suddenly deprive someone of the ability to board an airplane without due process, but it is in the hands of the political process, unless some judge figures out a way to determine it to be unconstitutional.
“The government’s secret, unaccountable terrorist watch list is the slippery slope to tyranny. ”
Also, the millions on the terrorist watch list *can* board planes, unless they are among the much smaller “no fly list”. Neither of which should exist.
“all gun sales/transfers in New Jersey require a background check” – misleading. Private sales of rifles and shotguns require that the buyer possess an FID card and that the buyer and seller complete a Certificate of Eligibility SP33 which can be downloaded from the internet. It is not necessary to go trough FFL if both parties are NJ residents and optional to mail the form to the state.
Handgun transfers require that both parties fill out the buyer’s handgun purchaser permit and mail to NJ state police and the buyer’s municipal police. Again, no requirement to go through FFL if both parties are NJ residents.
Please do your research before leading readers to believe private sales in NJ are subject to NICS.
Sorry it’s form S.P. 634 NOT S.P. 33 for transfer of Rifles and Shotguns.
The possibility that RF got the details of the transfer wrong are immaterial in the face of all the procedures being prima facie UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
I do have a habit of missing the forest for the trees.
Point taken. Text amended.
Thanks. Overall a great article. You hit the nail on the head with Florio.
I still can’t bring myself to forgive my parents for voting for him.
Hmmm, if people there are supposed to wade through all that bullshit (and I’m sure many DON’T), the NICS would be rather redundant… just fine with the gun prohibitionists, of course. The more redundant the “laws,” the better they like it.
Just curious if you think any of that nonsense is acceptable…
It’s absolute nonsense the way it is – I agree. But NICS in NJ adds insult to injury. It routinely takes me at least an hour. In 2013, the average wait time for NICS (Yes NICS for crying out loud) was two weeks.
My biggest grievance in regards to transfers is the one handgun per month law combined with the fact that the handgun purchaser permits are worthless after 180 days.
Acceptable? No. But in a state that always has an overwhelming Democrat majority, where the Democrat party believes that Constitutional rights are whatever they say they are, draconian gun control, no matter how unrelated to data is inevitable. The most ironic, and pretty standard result, is that those who vote for this nonsense are from the urban areas of NJ where crime is highest and legal ownership of guns lowest.
Well, Leon, that’s a good part of why I left California ten years ago and moved to Wyoming. None of that BS here. 🙂
Not exactly true, in a F-T-F pistol sale in NJ, the buyer still needs a Purchase Permit which serves as a background check since one is done to obtain the permit.
The only goal of NICS is to keep records of who owns guns. You are required to report it to the state, mission accomplished. Arguing about the nits is silly. The end result is, they know where you are.
Is it unreasonable to question why we buy protective vests for police, then allow for the sale of cop killer bullets?
Ironically, solid and FMJ bullets, the only kind allowed in New Jersey, are better at penetrating vests than hollowpoints. But everyone here knew that.
I’ll bet anything that NJ cops carry hollowpoints. They’re good enough when the government wants to shoot citizens….
Double 00 or #4 Buck in 12 gauge rounds are “cop killer” bullets. Being that there is a higher than average probability that one or more of the pellets will strike the target outside of the coverage provided by the average law enforcement vest.
And that is ignoring the fact that just as there is no such thing as ‘Gun violence” or “gun crime” since only people commit violence or crime, there is no such thing as a “cop killer” bullet, only a cop killer.
Yes, NJ cops carry hollow-points.
You can buy and own hollow points in NJ as long as you don’t carry them. Even retired cops couldn’t carry them until a recent change in regs.
You mean ordinary citizens without public responsibility or arrest power, who used to have arrest power, are allowed to carry deadly killer expanding ammo and the serf class is not?
Sounds like an equal protection suit in the making…
It does sound like one though such distinctions (off duty cops too) seem common
Has anyone ever tried a suit? Is there any possible legal justification for the different “rights” possessed by ex law
Bunch of old white people found a way to suppress civil rights without having to publicly wear white robes.
Ain’t new jersey the state that dresses it’s state cops in hugo boss?
I used to think that Chicago would be where the next Civil War started.
Gotta-turn-right-to-go-left, piss ant, stupid little state of NJ, rife with POS (D) can STFU and go to hell.
When we want advice out of NJ, we’ll just stick a flare gun in our mouths and pull the trigger.
I know I’m kind of missing the point here, but I do want to say how increasingly irritated I’m getting with the whole “clip” thing. Aside from just being wrong, every time a gun-control advocate uses the term, when they actually mean magazine, it puts an image in my head of someone trying to sound “cool” with a certain demographic even though they have no idea what they’re talking about. Kind of like when the hip, young teacher tries to use slang with the black kids or something.
It leaves POTG flabbergasted and falsely implies to gun-controllers that whoever said it is an authority on guns. Frickin’ clips.
So to fix Camden they went in, arrested the bad guys, put them in jail for many years, and everybody there lived happily ever after, right?
No? Why not? You mean that they don’t actually want to fix the problem because the politicians then would have nothing to run on? Are they really that cynical?
Lol, there’s plenty of states that have much lower crime rates and far less firearms restrictions.
This putz was a failure as Governor, why the hell would I listen to his opinions?
Meanwhile, across the river from New Jersey in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, some 11.9% of the citizens (age 21 or over) possess Licenses to Carry Firearms (based on 2015 license stats and population data). That’s not permission to own (New Jersey?), but permission to carry concealed.
Even in Philadelphia, with the lowest licensure rate in the Commonwealth, 3.0% (34,023 citizens) are licensed to carry. In other words, the City of Brotherly Love has more people licensed than the entire State of New Jersey.
Typical Statist tyrant who should be tried as a traitor to his country. If we could just saw off the eastern seaboard and send it to Europe and the west coast and send it to Japan, we could have a nice, sane country other than Chiraq.
New Jersey, where NYC sends its garbage, is America’s model for turning a garden into a Superfund site. Nothing more. Nothing less.
For criminals my borning country laws in germany work well too.
Now i m must be happy ?? LOL
When will we actually rise up and take our country back? I get sicker every day listening to these political criminals trample our rights while lying to our faces. We need to take it back by force…this is too much like Germany circa 1933.
The comments section of the article on NJ.com is interesting:
More pro-gun there than I would expect from NJ.
NY, NJ, MA and CT do not have a lot of gun owners but those that are around are active in hitting back at BS.
Watch in CT when WTNH runs an anti-gun article. Either we take down the site or they take down the article or remove the ability to comment.
Those behind the lines are vocal and active.
Ahhhh the Cop Killer Bullets.
Didn’t you hear? They’re coated in Teflon to glide right through “bulletproof vests” and then they separate into a dozen “razor-sharp blades like petals on a flower” and they cut open surgeons fingers- thus contaminating victim and surgeon with AIDS. Which of course Ronald Reagan had the CIA cook up to contaminate African American heroin-addicted gheys.
Cop Killer Bullets. Reagan CIA magic *confirmed.
Former New Jersey Governor, Former Cambodian Prime Minister, Former Ugandan President… each one has valuable pearls of wisdom for collective humanity, and we should breathlessly heed them all.
While resolving to do exactly the opposite.
It’s gotta be something in the water…
Their unconstitutional, useless and flat out retarded laws are so poorly constructed law enforcement officers are winding up getting charged like in the case of that corrections officer.
NJ Y U SO DUMB??
Having to get permission to buy a gun is the same as asking permission to vote. Unconstitutional from the second it was conceived. How any of these laws have survived a week much less a quarter of a century plus boggles my mind.
“So is it unreasonable to be concerned that 40 percent of gun owners are not subject to any background check when buying a gun?”
It is great grounds for concern that 60% of people buying a gun are subject to an invasive, flawed intrusion, which BTW, they are required to pay for, with *no* evidence of their having done anything wrong, or intending to.
“Is it unreasonable to conclude that no hunter needs 30, 50, 100 round clips for their firearms?”
Indeed, it is perfectly unreasonable to reach a conclusion for which no argument has been made. People get “large” “clips” because they want them. It’s up to you to make the case that they should not be permitted to do as they like.
BTW, conflating “hunters” with “all gun owners” is not a good start. Since we’re talking logic here, even if you could prove conclusively that no hunter ever “needed” a 30 round “clip”, that’s no proof that there aren’t other uses for magazines, or “clips” with that capacity.
“Is it unreasonable to question why someone on a terrorist watch list can’t board a plane but can buy a gun?
Indeed, it is perfectly reasonable to question this state of affairs. Preventing someone from going where they will, as they like – say, on a plane – when they haven’t been convicted or even charged with anything is appalling.
If they’re dangerous enough to be on a watch list, maybe watch them. Meanwhile the policy is correct regarding gun purchases, at least so far. Transportation administration might take note.
“Is it unreasonable to question why we buy protective vests for police, then allow for the sale of cop killer bullets?”
Indeed, the notion of law enforcement being better protected than the citizens they preserve is a bit awkward. Apparently citizens are more expendable than cops. So, who is protecting who?
In the end, this is just another big govt governator’s exercise in uniformity by un-personing. “Nobody I know has a gun just on their own. So who cares what we do to *those people* and their strange practices just doesn’t matter.”
Someone forgot to remind Flim Flam Florio about the gross human rights violations in the NJ prison system
It’s unreasonable to think Florio will say anything factual or relevant.
Now THAT image was a good reply!
I want to say thank you to the veterans of WW2 who used private guns and explosives to defeat tyranny in Athens Tennessee on 3 Aug 1946.
They put an end to the tyrants rule in McMinnville county.
The second amendment is for the citizens to defend themselves against a corrupt government.