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“We don’t judge whether the police are doing a good job by the numbers of criminals they kill each year, but rather by how well they stop crime. The same should be true in judging the effectiveness of civilian DGUs.” – Paul Hsieh in Any Study Of ‘Gun Violence’ Should Include How Guns Save Lives [via]


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  1. Agreed. So of the 300K to 2 million+ successful DGUs per year, only a few hundred are homicides. Soooo…….civilian DGUs are running at 99.99% succese rate? Sweet.

    P.S. Police are civilians, too.

    • For the folks in the middle, yes. But anti-gunners I cite this to refuse to believe there are this many DGUs. It’s a point of faith with them.

      • Same here. Some will stick to the justified homicide number and not budge.

        The human mind is a crazy, amazing thing. There are a great many built-in cognitive biases. Some, maybe most, had value from an evolutionary psychology standpoint, but many have outlived their usefulness. Sticking to a first opinion, regardless of subsequent evidence to the contrary, is one of them.

        Part of the problem is that people don’t even know that they have these biases. So it’s difficult to overcome them, even if the motivation were there. It isn’t as easy as pointing to a despised constitutional amendment and automatically declaring it outdated.

        • especially when they come back and say that their bias is actually GOOD. at that point, there is no point in talking to them. they are willfully stupid.

        • Or maybe God made their cognitive processes wonderful in the beginning but Adam sinned and we all have that same fallen nature. The selfish self-centered nature that wants things to be the way we want them to be versus how they actually are. So I agree there is cognitive dissonance but I don’t agree on the cause, i.e. evolution. A theory that has yet to be proven and requires more faith than believing in a Triune God. Full disclosure: I used to call myself an atheist and I believed in evolution. Since I’ve gotten better info I changed my mind.

  2. Sometimes I think Chiraq’s finest have a bounty on bodies when I see how quickly they shoot “suspects”. I don’t have that luxury. I can be arrested for merely showing a bad guy my gat. And I’m positive a lot of kerfuffles are ended that way. Is that a DGU? I think so but I’ll never hear THAT. Oh the lowlife Austin bomber blew his azz up😄

  3. There are five guys walking around still today who decided that discretion was the better part of valor when they saw the big stainless 45 on my right hip. My wife and I continued on unmolested, and they continued on their way without the burden of a 45 Auto hollow point in their chest. This occurred while we were out hiking in a remote area back before cell phones were a thing. So while everybody involved knew that it was a real defensive gun use, how on Earth can we collect reliable statistics on this sort of thing. Given my experience it is easy for me to see the value of a defensive firearm preventing loss of life even on the side of the bad guys.

    The anti-gunners refuse to see the logic, but they have a history of being illogical and hysterical, and you can’t educate someone who closes his eyes, sticks his fingers in his ears, and shouts lalalalala. Frankly in the end I don’t care whether the anti-gunners understand the logic or not, personally carried firearms clearly save lives everyday, year-in and year-out. We don’t have to convince the Shannon Watts’s of the world we only need to continue to persuade those that will listen, and educate our politicians on what we expect.

  4. Yep. The whole idea is that a gun is a deterrent first and a deadly defensive weapon second.

    If the bad guy retreats once he is challenged at point of gun, no further force is necessary and it is a successful defensive gun use.

    • Maryland has not yet done all it can by way of deterrence .

      Make Md. a constitutional carry state any place , there’s not metal detectors and armed security in place , if you legally own a gun in the state, you can carry for legal self defence . THAT will be serious , butt puckering , deturance. Crime will drop fast or run out of bad guys.
      Let that 10,000 a year be bad guys for a change. Harsh ? Sure it is. IT Focus’s on whom needs deterrence .

  5. Yesterday’s Left fought for equal rights and the protection of American jobs. Today’s progressives are governed only by the suppression of women and minorities. You need only look at Hillary Clinton’s or Joy Behar’s recent remarks to see the naked bigotry of classifying millions of people as sub-human for belief in Christianity, or voting against a particular candidate, or owning a gun. Why should I have to know a person’s color or gender to decide if something they say is meaningful? Joy Behar calls Christians insane for their beliefs while supporting Muslim’s in theirs. She denies science in believing that people can be one of hundreds of genders, or none at all, or switch genders every 10 minutes if they so choose. They incite violence against women who do not agree with their political agenda. They say every woman who alleges rape or abuse should be listened to, unless its against one of their own leaders. They are simply, insane.

  6. The anti’s know the truth. They do not ignore it. They do not suffer from ‘cognitive bias’.

    They are straight up lying. Their cause is to create victims. They know this is their end result. They want this result.

    The people supporting gun control need to be in prison for crimes against humanity and civil rights violations.

    • My mother explained what turning the other cheek was about and what selling your cloak and buying a sword is about , with this
      example , comments and advise .
      Some one trips you on pourpose and then laughs and mocks you . What to do? Just get up walk away. Remembering the golden rule of empithy “ do unto others as you’d have them do onto you”
      HOW EVER
      If they kick you when down and hurt you continuing the attack or with threats you must recognize EVIL and get up and with any movable object or weapon proceed to knock the snot out of them by any force needed to end the attack and while that is happening in the course of justifiable defense they happen to die ,it is an unintended killing / not murder as you have done your duty to yourself and others after you.
      Mom had rules for everything like how to pick out good friends , gun safety, avoiding pit falls of life , good driving , how to deal with bullies, understanding how stories change between tellings one person to the next, when to question authority , deciding right from wrong, quotes from all over , everyone has there axe to grind , think for yourself , understanding how news just gets part of the story ,CHORES , LEARNING SKILLS, manners , empathy, ect . Think ‘Gibbs rules’ without the numbers. AND MORE
      It seemed endless. Gee i wish the play book she had was all in print . It sure has served me well. mmm … There’s a topic to be writing on .
      Here’s part of now my opinions, from her guidance , on ‘gun control’ as now typicaly known and her way.
      are anti gun laws weapons of war?
      Despotic heads of government have used them as such.
      Are we seeing that here in USA for 50 years say or since gun restrictions in 1934?
      I have bin watching this topic (GUN CONTROL ) for 50 years.
      Here is the larger picture.
      legislated ‘gun control ‘ is MAINLY to blame for what is now MOST mass shootings. Yea there were some all along before the 60’s. back when civilians could buy oh my gosh, MACHINE GUNS and they get vetted maybe more then cops.
      The cheep solution is to ; Drop all gun laws since 1960 / its fast and near cost free. start reviewing now yea NOW.
      ITS A PITY a Joe McCarthy type representative is not watching our congress and senators since he died in 1957 on look out for the anti gunners assault we have seen.
      one question is ,
      Can I get a pro-gun conservative’s sincere views on how to stop school shootings in the US? Can it really be done without introducing strict gun laws?
      Answer is;
      Firearms Guide – Identification of Firearms Within the Purview of the National Firearms Act
      above are real machine guns that are ALREADY REGULATED.
      Gun control is what has set this school up as a sitting duck for 28 years (gun free school zones ) how long must an attractive nuisance exist and be advertised before it draws tragedy?
      Statements of fact.
      ( I can substantiate them all)
      1. Guns are not the problem, gun control is not the answer.
      2, Criminals look for easy targets. Armed people , or there free ability to be , are not easy targets.
      3. Every unjust attack needs to be repelled and have the means to do so.
      4. Basics in gun safety should be returned to school teachings.
      5. The only effective ‘gun control’ is hitting the attacking target and not what is not attacking when a gun is used.
      We need to;
      1. REMOVE anti gunners from office for failure to uphold the constitution and there oaths of office.
      How to get back on track? ;
      2. Review and remove every gun law that is not effective, when or where, other laws have made the ‘bad action’ a crime. With very few exceptions should any stay.
      3. Look into ways to catch wind of and help distressed individuals .
      4. Find more ways to help criminals to succeed getting gainful work under the rules once freed.
      more skills;
      5. Add additional life skills in schools and jails . Balance check book , open an account , job search, many others .
      Sharing your knowledge;
      6. Mentor your fellow man more .
      7. Be a good parent and supportive .
      Supporting rights;
      8. Open vetted CCL licences in MD. and between states its almost like free cops. There general record is as good as cops and promotes rights.
      Other positive thoughts;
      9. Add to this list and share it.
      I value my descendants rights as much as my own . It is there for our duty to fight for and protect all rights every day. You have choices your children deserve the same .
      ‘Proper gun control ‘ defined
      The only ‘proper’ “gun control” is;
      1. what a gun owner uses and does to be sure they hit the attacking target and NOT some other thing.
      2. Its a skill to strive for then thru practice and training with a gun.
      3. It has nothing to do with regulations or laws.
      FYI I am and you are, still a member of the unorganized militia because cops have no duty to protect my family or yours.
      It is your duty and responsibility .
      So if your still un-armed , How do you protect any thing besides freeload on the benefit that all can be armed for protection?
      ( like criminals out free are forced to do)
      ( Even ex criminals out free on the street needs protection from muggings. They will just have to get it from everyone else who might be armed as a benefit . )
      The thing to avoid ;
      Once law disarms you your in a sitting duck situation WAITING for trouble to find you.
      1. THIS is the problem causing mass shootings anyplace.
      2. ( mmm … why criminals will arm up.)
      3. Any gun owner made a paper felon by anti gun laws, would do ,,who had no due process, or did no wrong , would do, from principal. . AKA ignoring illegal laws.
      Anti gun laws and States have made to many easy targets by stifling self defense by making it likely you will run afoul of a gun law that has no care whether the state can or prove your, or an, ill intent before charging you.
      This has stifled gun ownership and self defense
      In effect your screwed for being prepared for defense and no means to be vetted by the state by getting a CCL as a shall issue permit process at costs no more then drivers licences are .
      ( hint Drivers licenses have codes adding CCL is a tiny change on that form. )
      That is obviously ‘infringement’ on rights if not provided.
      Full auto’s are curtailed mostly to govt and police, not banned. (even to civilians) Nor should any lesser arm.
      So banning is not an answer when involving rights.
      Free speech is a right but can we ban or remove politicians for speaking a lie? Even if in error ?
      But they CAN be removed for failure to oath of office.
      I think gun free zones , banning guns from school zones, was a criminal act on there (anti gun politicians ) part .
      It was a set up. Many unjust gun laws are just that, a set up.
      Its inherently wrong .
      It has bin an intentional failure to up hold there oath of office.
      (maybe they thought no one was watching.)
      Its a choice every one may have to make.
      Anti gunners want to force a choice .
      Pro gunners say its your right to decide for yourself and your situation.
      If your situation changes:
      pro gunners say; YOU can fix that .
      anti gunners ; its to late to fix that.
      Most think it is best to leave options open.
      No one forces you to have a gun
      But some try to force you NOT to have one.
      The fact is:
      Non gun owners gain benefit when thugs know all COULD be armed.
      Everyone loses if there is all sitting ducks
      What is smarter freedom for all?
      Constitutional law is supposed to be the focused, non changing, law of the land that out lines and protects rights.
      It has its methods to be changed.
      State legislated law, really should reflect those constitutional values.
      No one can honestly say that state laws are doing that now. They are getting overburdening and complex.
      Our rights to guns kept the peace before there were cops, the national guard, a standing military, even even before all the state gun laws since 1960, and it still can anyplace we are at.
      All you need do is exercise them.
      Hint; Currently under existing law in MD. that’s getting very hard to do. Be careful.
      The situation is getting worse. One must ask why?

      this is one of MY original writings .

  7. Let’s look at the differences in the way police are treated after a questionable shooting:

    A citizen that uses deadly force, even justifiably, will be immediately handcuffed and arrested, until the situation is “sorted out”. He will most likely be “detained” in a holding cell at the police station until the prosecutor makes a decision whether to prosecute. Questioning by police will most certainly be forceful and immediate, with police interrogators purposely trying to “trip up” the citizen by attempting to elicit contradictory statements–standard police interrogation tactics.

    A police officer in an identical situation will NOT be handcuffed or arrested. The police officer will be afforded a union attorney and will have 72 hours in which to “get his story straight”. In addition, a police-friendly prosecutor will most likely hesitate to prefer charges, as “they are on the same team”. Most likely an extended taxpayer-paid “vacation” (administrative leave) will result.
    Not so for the ordinary citizen.
    Double standard?
    You bet…

  8. You may beat the rap but you’re not going to beat the ride and the LEO is going to take your weapon. Never to be seen again as it lingers as evidence.
    Tip of the day, never carry a handgun you can’t easily replace. I have a GP 100 with a rosewood grip with SR (Strum Ruger) with the firebird emblem.
    Modern Ruger handguns have only the R firebird grip nowadays since Strum died years ago.
    I’ve never had a DGU incident and hope never to have one. However although crime is down, crazy is up. Therefore home carry and everywhere legal. My husband doesn’t even know when I have a handgun on me. He keeps a Bowie knife under his pillow.
    I’m a believer in “never take a knife to a gun fight” but it’s his choice so I don’t say any thing.

    • After beating ‘the rap ‘ (on car carried weapons ) A written demand letter for all things ‘confiscated ‘ the state will take 30 days to reinvestigate you to get back what the FFL dealer takes 30 min to do to sell you a replacement , but you WILL get your guns back, ammo too, and other property.

      That’s how it was for me .
      The cops said they hardly ever have to return guns and they never saw ammo returned before .
      So they packed up the guns escorted to car had yea lock them in car, then returned to get ammo , also re packed, then another escort to car as watched me drive away .. maybe they followed to see if went straight home too but I did not notice.

  9. This author hits the nail right on the head. Only body’s count. He flashes a Knife, you flash a gun, he runs one way and you run the other. Nobody reports it. You go on with your life as if nothing happened. What about the other guy? Do you think he’ll never try it again, or will he learn from his scare and be more aggressive or more selective of his victims? Are you responsible for all his future victims because you didn’t put him down when you had the chance? Is saving all his future victims worth ruining you own life?
    I have no answers, but I have lots of inconvenient questions. Good luck coming up with your own answers.

  10. The police do not really stop crime. They are tasked with bringing accused law-breakers to justice by the court system.

    Police presence may have a positive impact on criminal activity or may add to the problems, as it did during obama’s regime.

  11. No way to total up all the defensive use of firearms as most of us don’t report them when we are successful and don’t need to resort to deadly force. I’ve had two occasions where just indicating that I was armed was sufficient to stop the threat. Maybe a poll would help those who calculate such statistics.

  12. “We don’t judge whether the police are doing a good job by the numbers of criminals they kill each year, but rather by how well they stop crime. The same should be true in judging the effectiveness of civilian DGUs.”

    Effective vs. ineffective armed response to school shooter, conservatively, net 14 fewer dead. (I can make an argument for 16 fewer dead, if the wounded kids survive; 17 fewer dead if we allow that School-Shooter-Guy was — er — gunning for a Darwin Award and doesn’t count. That’s excluding the Parkland wounded.)

    Yeah, armed actual response for the win.

  13. “We don’t judge whether the police are doing a good job by the numbers of criminals they kill each year, but rather by how well they stop crime.”

    Actually, by how well having police enables peaceful, responsible people going about their lives unmolested. Yeah, stop crime, but also “Don’t Taze me bro.”

  14. Police arrive in time to prevent less than 3% of violent crime. If a gun owner can prevent only 4% of criminal attempts against them is 33%more safer than just relying on police (never mind it is they can probably prevent 25% to 50% of violent attempts against them).

    By the way, even the largest estimate of civilian DGU undercounts crimes prevented. In 2009 my sister pulled her firearm on a man attempting to attack her, she was able to call 911 and he was arrested. It turns out he had two other aggravated sexual assaults. If she had not had her firearm not only would she have been a crime statistic, but there is a very good chance she prevented the guys next attack after her as well

  15. This guy totally gets it! Man do we need more of Paul Hsieh types out there!

    @TEXICAN. Good on you Brother! I grew up in a home where we believed in God but, I had a bad taste in my mouth after a few experiences with organized religion. Got back to my roots a few years ago thanks to a small wonderful congregation of people who have become family.

  16. Too bad his voice is effectively silenced.

    You think the liars at CNN or any other media group are pushing his opinion? Heck no.

    It will remain amongst us, the choir, and slowly die here to be forgotten.

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