The senseless murder of 19 children and two teachers at the Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas is leading to calls for more gun control. To some, “red flag” laws, also known as Extreme Risk Protection Orders, seem like the obvious solution. These laws allow judges to seize a person’s guns without a trial, based solely on a written complaint that the person might be a danger to themselves or others. All a judge needs is “reasonable suspicion.” …
It has always been possible to take a dangerous person’s guns away. All 50 states and the federal government have involuntary commitment laws that go by various names: the Baker Act in Florida, for example, or the 5150 code in California. They all require a mental health expert to testify before a judge, but hearings can occur quickly in urgent cases. If those facing a hearing can’t afford a lawyer, the judge provides them with one.
Judges have a lot of flexibility when ruling. For instance, if the person on trial does not agree to voluntary psychiatric treatment, they may be committed involuntarily or have their guns confiscated.
But red flag laws remove all these due process protections. Based only on a written complaint, which could come from a relative, friend, neighbor, or police officer, a judge decides whether to take away a person’s guns. There is no ability to challenge claims or to offer testimony from a mental health care expert.
Gun control advocates argue that the person should not even know that the judge may be deciding to take his or her guns. When a hearing finally takes place up to a month later, if the person in question cannot afford an attorney, they will not be provided with one. …
We worry that red flag laws could actually increase instances of suicide. …
Simply talking to other people about your depression can be important in overcoming it. But with red flag laws in place, people may have been reluctant to discuss their mental state with others. Police officers also often experience work-related depression. They may bottle up their feelings for fear of losing their guns, and thus their jobs.
We don’t want a world where police make unannounced predawn raids or people lose their fundamental right to self-defense without a judicial hearing. For some, it’s a matter of life and death.
Helloooooo……….They’re NOT unintended!!
That’s right when a mentally ill teenager goes bananas and murders defenseless children and adults everyone in a 3000 mile radius should surrender their Constitutional Rights to the political party that owns the legacy of slavery, segregation, Jim Crow, the kkk, lynching, Eugenics, Gun Control and other race based atrocities. Perhaps the democRat Party should stfu and make Monetary Reparations for their race based atrocities that occurred in the North, South, East and West.
Break it down…
1) The Second Amendment is one thing.
2) The criminal misuse of firearms, bricks, bats, knives, vehicles, etc. is another thing.
3) History Confirms Gun Control in any shape, matter or form is a racist and nazi based Thing.
Red flag laws do not pass constitutional muster. Violates the 4th amendment. I know many L.E. Officers/Deputies that refuse to even participate in Red Flag training. They have said that they took an oath to support the constitution, and this clearly violates it. The admin does nothing about it because they are afraid of court decision that may rule it unconstitutional. Red flag laws clearly violate 2nd amendment and fourth amendment. What are judges thinking?. So you can lose your right to possesses a firearm, without having committed or been convicted of any crime?. How is this legal?
My sentiments exactly. There’s this little thing called The Constitution… this needs to be the real line in the sand.
“Unintended Consequences” my ass.
What they want is to make as many of us legally prohibited persons, denying us our right to keep and bear arms.
First will come a federal ‘red flag’ law passed into law that sounds perfectly reasonable. Say, family members, for example.
What will happen later is that they will expand the categories of people who can initiate the process. As just a few examples, people you work with, or your neighbors.
They will weaponize it in as many ways as they possibly can, and never stop adding to who can make the reports.
Like this, for example – Get charged with reckless driving? Someone that reckless should never be allowed to own a gun. Or even a traffic speeder. Someone who cannot follow safety rules like speed limits can’t be trusted to own dangerous things like guns.
That is how they will kill the 2A, via the Leftist Scum ™ tactic of ‘nudge’. Keep taking tiny bites until the right doesn’t exist anymore.
A question I have for the TTAG legal chimps is this –
There are some pending state-level AWB challenges soon to hit the SCotUS in-basket. If the High Court rules semi-auto magazine-fed weapons are expressly protected by the 2A, would that instantly ‘nuke’ any federal AWB that may get passed in the near future?
No it will just reset the clock on the appeals process.
Not only prohibited persons, but felons in possession of a firearm. Surrender your guns and the right to vote.
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“The Constitution, the Second Amendment was never absolute. You couldn’t buy a cannon when the Second Amendment was passed,” Biden said.
The pathetic useless braindead SOB. Yes, you could own a cannon. In fact, TODAY you can own a cannon identical to what he yaps about.
Yes, you can own cannon. I have a 6 pounder, and a 12 pounder, as well as a WWII era pack Howitzer. Only restriction is no explosive shells. Solid shot only.
IT shopuld not be a question of MAYBE but CERTAINLY and the complainent shpould have to prove suitabu ility no the other way roiund. The fact that a BOY OF EIGHTEEN could legally purchase TWO assault type rifles and acquire enough ammo to start a minor war days after he was eighteen and a day ‘without let or hinder’ but cannot be trusted to have a couple of beers or apparently have LEGAL SEX in some States, is verging on the ludicrous. What is even more ludicrous is that given the vote a good proportion of America’s mothers would rather vote for their kids to get firearms before they were 18 than that they could indulge in LEGAL SEX. In WW” America’s mother voted against issuing GI’s with condoms. The result?? Almost bthe worlds entire supply of PENICILLIN was required to treat SYPHYLUS in ITALY alone or the America Army in Italy was in danger of collapse. Not even unique actually, The JAPANESE ARMY that invaded the Soviet Union had a 90% STD mainly syphylus. The French Authorities sent trainloads of poxxed up women and wine to German LInes as the Germans were advancing of PARIS in WW1. With the help of the BRITISH REGULAR INFANTRY [The Old Contempibles -research WIKI] they did indeed stop the German advance, and by the way so did the Russians stop the Japanese on Paris.
Now that’s EFFECIVE bacteriological Warfare
WTF is an “assault type rifle?”
Whatever politics decides.
Assault type rifle? Ok, so just what is that?
Semi Automatic rifles have been on the civilian market for around a century. Most in more potent calibers than the .223 round every disarmament freak is so terrified of.
The scary AR15 has been available since the mid 1960″s. Bought my first in “72.
Take a serious look at the history of what has been popular in the civilian market over time in the US. Generally rifles similar to those used by the military. Up through the US Civil War, most firearms were muzzle loading rifles and muskets. After the war, anyone who could get them purchased repeating rifles and revolvers. After the Spanish American war, many purchased Bolt action rifles like the 30-40 Kraig-Jorgensen or the Mauser rifles. Same thing after WWI. After WWII many like my father bought surplus Garand rifles. Some of which were modified to use detachable magazines. A popular conversion in the 1950’s
After the M16 became the standard service rifle, many who served and many others as well purchased the type of rifle they were familiar with. Something like the rifles they were trained to maintain and use.
The only thing that makes an AR any more dangerous than any other rifle is the perception and media hype associated with a rifle cosmetically similar to duty issued firearms.
albert hall the sneaky slimy limey knows the concocted derogatory label Assault Weapon is bogus and won’t sell on this forum. He’s using “type” to say, Assault Weapon.
Rest assured…If the Gun Control red coat saw his neighbor with an AR-15 he would pee his pants and call the police and drop the “type” and say he sees someone with an Assault Weapon.
slimy limey switches from wanting everyone to follow him and surrender to a deranged teenager to running his piehole about STDs, penicillin, etc. I do believe such a level of STDs would infect nazis occupying Italy first before the US arrived. IMO…sir albert hall of shame has all the attributes of a perverted control freak you don’t want in the vicinity of children.
Albert Hall, that was the most disjointed post ever put on the Blog. Were you drunk when you wrote it?
So Congress MIGHT have a burning desire to “do sumpin”. What useful idea
1. Require all government schools to have, at all times, a minimum of 20% staff on campus be armed (on body) with a (loaded) 9mm, .40 or .45 handgun. Fed govt to issue thru the local PD, 50rd per school employee for annual live fire.
2. Fed gov to fund (from current DOJ budget) construction of a publicly accessible (10/7/365) handgun range within 1mi of any government school. Priority for use by school employees/then the general public.
How can you make so many spelling mistakes, in just one long paragraph? Were you a high school dropout, or a junior high school dropout? No shame in that, if you grew up in an Asian ghetto.
The primary purpose of red flag laws to to insure the law abiding are murdered by criminals. So the goverment doesnt have to do it.
The government simply uses the mentally ill to murder people. And have them murder is many people in a random way as fashion. The government is not interested in enforcing the 5150 law. In California Elliot Rodgers planned to murder people for months. He bought guns, knives, ammunition, and the correct size 10rd magazines. He always waiting for the correct “one gun a month” purchase law in the Not so Golden State.
When his parents called the police they did not enforce the 5150 law.
California has a history of writing the “Twinkies Defense” type laws. Which basically allows people who are suspected of being mentally ill to avoid getting treatment. And avoid being held accountable for any crimes they commit.
There is no proof that the governemnt wants the mentally ill taken off the streets and treated. They just want your guns.
Two knives, Glock 34 handgun, Two SIG Sauer P226 handguns, BMW 328i Coupé
Deaths 7 (3 by stabbing; 4 by gunfire, including the perpetrator)
Injured 14 (7 by gunfire, 7 struck by motor vehicle)
“In California Elliot Rodgers planned to murder people for months“
Yes, you are correct, the problem with Elliot Rogers was not his access to firearms.
His problem was his toxic masculinity, his unreasoning hatred of women for objecting to his unwanted sexual advances.
I agree with you, rather than focusing on the guns, especially in this case, we should focus on the American culture’s love and support of toxic masculinity.
And as a society, we should limit bloodsports that emphasize violence and killing. The stylized violence of American football is a prime example, where children are indoctrinated from toddlerhood in the peewee football leagues, right on up to the pro bowl arena, into a culture of violent conflict without any redeeming moral or humanitarian goal.
By broadcasting the stylized violence to millions over the airwaves we are encouraging our children to utilize violence as their only tool for handling adversity.
It wasn’t too long ago the Osamabama VA formulated agency rules to confiscate firearms from veterans who are considered not competent to handle their own financial affairs. That’s how one eats an elephant: One bite at a time.
Red flag laws should go after street gangs first!
Ever notice that the authors of the Constitution wrote laws able to stand up to the test of time over 100s of years, but contemporary politicians can’t see past their fat, ugly noses?
I remember year ago that it was revealed that was not illegal to transmit child pornography over the internet because stupid politicians wrote the law so poorly that it did not allow for changing technology. Idiots, all of them.
Due process always scares a fascist. And then there is the privacy issue. UBC’s, red flag laws, and 4473’s are a violation of privacy protections.
‘If you’re doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to hide.’ Every tyrant ever.
Probably need a new Posted-Article on the TTAG about this topic. I have issues with the NY Post, but this is really bad news if this is the case.
I’m all for these red flag laws. In fact, let’s expand them to other areas of life. Let me have the ability to whisper to a judge that my neighbor drives home Thursday and Friday nights drunk and then, based only upon this allegation have the police come and haul his car away on a flatbed truck and revoke his drivers license. If he can then prove his innocence after 90 days he can have his car back but he’ll still owe the storage fees for it and may not be granted his driver’s license again.
How about doctors? Let me whisper to the medical board that doctor so and so is angry, frustrated and depressed and then, without any notice have the board take the doctor’s license to practice away and board up his office.
Ditto for the airline pilot that lives next door. A whisper to the right regulatory agency and POOF! his job is gone and his reputation ruined….no due process needed.
See where this is going?
Would people be for this abrogation of due process if their ass was up against the grinder?
You have it right that is why it is un constitutional regardless of how careful they say they will be. Pure BS
just go along
that ANY democrat
EVER wants to do
no matter how well intentioned it sounds
Consider just one type of case. The subject of a confiscation order is alleged to be suicidal. OK, perhaps he is. We don’t know. A gun confiscation order isn’t interested in his suicidal ideation; it’s interested only in confiscating his guns.
Such an event is apt to push this subject over the edge. He might just execute on his suicidal ideation. Jump off a bridge; jump in front of a car or train. Hang himself. Half of American suicides are by gun; the other half are by other means. What’s important here? Only that he NOT suicide by GUN.
If this subject is taken to a hospital for an evaluation the docs just might discover that he REALLY IS having suicidal ideation. That wouldn’t be discovered if the cops just confiscated his guns and left him otherwise at liberty to kill himself.
Now, what to do with this patient with suicidal ideation? That’s tough. The usual protocol would be to give him an SSRI drug, such as Prozac, and see if it works in 6 weeks; if not, try another SSRI or an SNRI. Rinse and repeat. Most of the time it works; it just takes 6 – 12 – 18 – 24 weeks to find the right drug.
Is there another alternative today? Why YES, there IS. The docs could ask the patient if he would like to take a trip and see if his suicidal ideation goes away? If he says ‘Yes’ then put him in a Lazy-Boy, give him a sleep mask and headphones. Play nice calming music in his ears, and hook him up to an IV with 0.5 mg/kg of ketamine.
Check back in with him in a couple of hours and see if he is still interested in suicide. He might not be. But, even if he still is having suicidal ideation, he will probably be in a better mood. Tell him to come back day after tomorrow and go for another trip. Then next week, twice, and the week after twice. In 3 weeks elapsed time, and a dozen hours in a Lazy-Boy, he will probably be NO LONGER interested in suicide. In treatment-resistant Major Depressive Disorder with suicidal ideation this protocol has a 70% success rate.
If it saves just one life; well, wouldn’t it be worth it? Lazy-Boys are cheap; so is ketamine. If we just HAVE to do SOMETHING!, why not consider something that WORKS? RELIABLY!!
Just a thought. But it wouldn’t get any guns off the street.
So, what’s this all about? Guns? Or, saving lives?
“Such an event is apt to push this subject over the edge. He might just execute on his suicidal ideation. Jump off a bridge; jump in front of a car or train. Hang himself.”
Or opt for “suicide by cop” when they attempt to serve the confiscation order.
Is Massie a supporter of the 2A? Or is he a FUDD?
Gun media writer Dave Cole writes for the “Black Man With A gun” web site. Congressman Massie is his congress represenitive. The congressman doesn’t want to talk to him.
“Congressman Massie has simply not been honest in disclosing his true position on the issue of concealed carry reciprocity between all 50 states”
Red Flag laws are unconstitutional. The Supreme Court not too long ago reinforced that no one in law enforcement can enter your home without a valid search or arrest warrant. It should be a violation of both your fourth and second amendment rights. You should deal with anyone trying to come into your house without a warrant with your State’s Make My Day or Castle Domain laws and do what you need to do to protect yourself, family andd property.
Those self-defense laws don’t apply to someone that’s “supposed” to be there like law enforcement or someone serving a subpoena. I imagine the red flags will end up being bringing someone before the court to make the case against allowing them to own and carry firearms. That decision can’t be made without due process. It’s still dangerous territory because people would use this against their enemies/rivals, but they’re already using the legal system for that. AGs and DAs are using the tax payer system right now to go after political rivals as they let violent criminals go with a slap on the wrist.
The only good thing that might come of a federal red flag law is that SCOTUS could overturn it thus probably making the ones at state level unconstitutuional too. Still I would rather it not happen at all.
We have such a wishy washy group of people on the U.S. Supreme Court, Grumpster. I would not trust a damned one of them to uphold the Second Amendment. Not without adding a hole big enough for the anti-gunners to drive a truck through.
This crap always begins with good intentions. I remember when I was a kid a chicken could approach a roadway without having his intentions questioned. Now the after-incident reports are a goddamn joke, gee, what was he thinking?, WHY did he cross the road ?… friggin nazis.
simple solution. Federal law that requires the agency non judicially removing property of a citizen to provide legal counsel of the citizen’s choice (i.e. if I am in Florida and the attorney I want is Nevada…bummer for the system) and if the state is not successful they pay triple damages for property, and for lost income etc.
The person who filed the claim that initiated the action then has to refund the state for the expense.
SO Deputy Flatfoot decides to carry out a red flag. He must first get a budget of OH 500,000 going in approved.
NOT GOING TO HAPPEN
In related news: I just ran across these tidbits…
GUNS AND CONTROL
Turkey established gun control in 1911. Soon after, 1.5 million Armenians unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
The Soviet Union established gun control in 1929. Soon after, about 20 million dissidents unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. Soon after, 20 million political dissidents unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938. Soon after, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. Soon after, one million people unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. Soon after, 100,000 Mayan Indians unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. Soon after, 300,000 Christians unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Australia established gun control in 1996. Right now, Australian citizens are being brutalized and terrorized by their tyrannical government.
Venezuela established Desarma La Violencia to disarm citizens in 2010. Once one of the richest countries in Latin America, Venezuela is currently free falling into violent unrest and extreme poverty.
New Zealand expanded gun control in 2019. Right now, New Zealand citizens are being brutalized and terrorized by their tyrannical government.
Canada expanded gun control in 2020. Right now, Canadian citizens are being brutalized and terrorized by their tyrannical government.
Canada is about to learn just how porous that border with us actually is. Their excuse for stealing the rights of their citizens who obey their stupid, excessive laws is that some bad guy smuggled in firearms that are illegal, or some bad guy in some other country killed some kids, or some drugged up criminal gang member killed someone with a gun they wouldn’t have allowed him to buy anyway. Time for regime change in Canada, if they have the stones for it.
Canadians elected their fascist hobbit, they get what they deserve.
Probably the Frenchies in Canada who elected Trudy, much to the dismay of all other Canadians who are not socialists.