“Stupid Democrat Swine” or Why AR-15’s Are Less Dangerous Than a 12 Gauge Shotgun

(courtesy thetruthaboutguns.com)

TTAG Commentator Fred Friendly left this underneath our DeSantis Gunhide Question of the Day: What’s the Dumbest Thing You’ve Heard A Politician Say About Guns Recently?

Stupid Democrat swine. They can’t even do basic math, they are stuck with Obama Math. Biden and the average Dumbocrat will say AR15s must be banned because they “hold too many bullets” and that shotguns are all anyone needs for protection. Lets do some actual math, not Dumbocrat Math.

The average magazine used in the average AR15 is a 30 rounder. The Batman Colorado movie shooter used a Betamag, but that is an exception in these mass shootings, and his jammed after 20 rds. Most shootings using an AR15 used a standard 30 rd mag which means 30 .22cal rounds can be put on target before reloading.

The average pump shotgun holds 5 shot shells in the feeding tube, Double 00 buck has 9 pellets per shell. 9×5 = 45 .32 cal pellets that can be put on target before reloading. Some shotguns have 9 rd tubes, meaning 9×9= 81 .32 cal pellets on target before reload.

45 vs. 30 or 81 vs. 30. Either way, Crazy Joe’s shotgun puts alot more lead on target at close ranges than the AR15. Of course this example doesnt take long range accuracy, different mags, etc etc….into account, but it does display the complete ignorance of the leftist stooges who obsess over what’s really a nominally destructive platform. If this is all about capacity, the AR15 is underwhelming compared to a 9 rd shotgun.

Just a little regular math to use when some idiot leftist stooge is spouting Obama Math.


  1. American gun owners are far more likely to injure themselves or someone else with their firearm than to stop a criminal. The study, by the Violence Policy Center, found there were 258 justifiable homicides involving civilians using firearms in 2012, compared with 8,342 murders by gun.

    Even if a criminal isn?t shot down, the study found that civilians rarely use guns to protect themselves. ?Intended victims of property crimes engaged in self-protective behavior with a firearm? only 0.1 percent of the times they were targeted by a #$%$.

    The report, titled ?Firearm Justifiable Homicides and Non-Fatal Self-Defense Gun Use? relied on FBI and Bureau of Justice data. The Violence Policy Center said the report disproves the premise of arguments by the National Rifle Association that more guns in the hands of regular people will reduce crime.

    1. avatar notalima says:

      Ah, puppy, quoting an article from the VPC…how charming.

      1. avatar Eric in Oregon says:

        Not even quoted, literally just cut and pasted (the question marks are usually placeholders for fancy quote glyphs that didn’t translate from the source).

    2. avatar Sunshine_Shooter says:

      Trying not to feed the troll, but…

      Armed victims of attack have death rates an order of magnitude lower than unarmed victims.

    3. avatar Bob says:

      Might as well quote an article from the KKK about minority rights

    4. avatar DaveW says:

      And, of course, the group you quote has no agenda what so ever. BS. They have already stated their position and will twist the data to meet that agenda. (The same propaganda techniques used by the USSR, Germany, and many other governments, including our own.)

      The CDC doesn’t list guns among the top 15 causes of death in the USA. Further, they separate out suicides, justified shootings (self defense)al shootings (law enforcement) according to the FBI, Bunch and others combine the data in order to pump up the figures they quote. The FBI has, on more than one occasion, publicly repudiated the statistics anti-gun groups quote the FBI as having in their data files. According to both the FBI and CDC, more people are killed by blunt objects (rocks, clubs, fists, etc) than by guns.

    5. This is a common misconception. The key problem here is the term “gun owner”. Only a small number of “gun owners” are at risk around guns, the rest – and there are millions – have made themselves safer with guns, because they don’t live in homes where suicide and/or homicide are real possibilities.


    6. avatar Fred Frendly says:

      Replace “gun” with “car” or “toaster” or “ladder” and you have made the case you are a Stupid Democrat Swine, because blaming inanimate objects for the actions of humans is pretty freakin stupid.

  2. avatar Bollocks Troy says:


    1. avatar Jeremy S. says:

      Well I’ll reply with something actually relevant, and mention that my 00 12ga buckshot has 12 pellets per round. The maths change again!

      1. Yes. I’m thinking about doing a video showing a Fudd approved OU shotgun with 3″ 00Buck.
        See, the antis don’t just have a fetish with capacity, they also cry about rate of fire. Well even a full auto selected M16 can’t put 30 projectiles downrange faster than I can with my 12 gauge field gun. I’m guessing around 9,000 rpm. That’s both barrels discharged in 0.2 seconds throwing 15 .30 caliber pellets each.
        The bad guys’ favorite target these days is a crowded “security” line at airports. Hard to miss that many sheep packed in a corral.

  3. avatar Bollocks Troy says:

    Making the left’s case for them? They may as well as ban shotguns along with the AR.

    1. avatar Dave says:

      Yes! Don’t forget that Biden said “double-barreled shotgun”, not pump shotgun.

      He would come after pump shotguns too if he had the chance.

      Make no mistake about it. The agenda is incremental. Scotland is cracking down on pellet rifles now!

      1. avatar Stu in AZ says:

        The DP12 is a double barrel shotgun. Also only pumps half as often as every other pump shotgun, so it’s only half as deadly. A common-sense gun that should never be grabbed!

      2. avatar Phil says:

        Based on European/French gun laws here, a smooth pump-action shotgun is heavily regulated and restricted, just as much as any semi-auto rifles and handguns and only available for sport shooters. Rifled pump-action shotguns are not restricted, but still registered and regulated for hunters and sport shooters.

        Since the end goal for gun grabbers in the US is to end like in Europe, Australia or the UK, there’s no doubt they will come for the pump-action shotguns once they got the semi-auto rifles and handguns. Don’t doubt about that.

    2. avatar california richard says:

      Agreed…. Keep the left as stupid as possible and educate the fense sitters and unwitting parrots. That way when the fense sitters and parrots hear the lefties sound like idiots talking about guns, it’ll push them over to our side.

  4. avatar Nate in the land of townships says:

    Joe did say a double barrel for two blasts into the air tho

    1. avatar Rusty Chains says:

      Yeah, but maybe crazy uncle Joe thought he would be attacked by a drone! Some folks say he lowers the average IQ of the Dem party, and none of them could be described as the sharpest tool in the drawer.

      1. avatar AndrewinVA says:

        The funny thing is that, despite disagreeing with him on the majority of his policy positions, I could see myself enjoying shooting the shit with Joe over a beer or two… or maybe a 12 pack. I pity the drone that would fly overhead.

        1. avatar neiowa says:

          I think mean “enjoy shooting Joe’s shit”.

          Pretty sure spending time with the “dumbest VP in US history” would be an interesting as hearing Hillary speak/claw a chalkboard.

  5. avatar Jim says:

    Does the shotgun come standard with the shoulder thing that goes up? How about a silencer? Can we make ghost shotguns illegal?

  6. avatar Alex waits says:

    I still opt for the AR, I fat finger and fumble loading shotshells in a mag tube when trying to go fast.

  7. avatar Bob316 says:

    I have spent too much time training, too much time reading reports and articles about the anatomy of a shooting, and I have watched too many videos on the subject to fall for the myth that magazine capacity has any significant affect on the lethality of a mass shooting. There is simply no time between reloads to run from cover and physically attack the assailant before he finishes his reload. This includes revolvers using a New York reload.

    1. avatar Ing says:

      And when the police take three hours to mount an effective response, as they did in Orlando, a single wacko with a freaking musket could shoot 100 trapped and defenseless victims.

  8. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

    I’ve always been partial to #4 buck. 41 pellets. I believe those are .25 caliber.

    1. avatar Cliff H says:

      So even a double-barrel shotgun would put 82 .25 cal shot downrange almost immediately. Hell, it would take almost two seconds for the average AR to handle that rate of fire! (/sarc)

    2. avatar ACP_arms says:

      #4 buck is .24 cal to be exact, #3 buck is .25 cal.

  9. avatar skoon says:

    Jesus don’t them that now they’re gonna want my 870 too

    1. avatar Tex300BLK says:

      Don’t worry, they wanted to take that away from you long before the math proved it.

      All the above referenced comment does is reinforce the stereotype of knuckle dragging mouth breathing rednecks with anger problems and high blood pressure. Seriously “dumbocrat” was used more times than I care to count…. did I close my eyes and wake up on a middle school playground?

      1. avatar peirsonb says:

        Worse. The internet.

      2. avatar Ing says:

        Well, the Democrats do have a very high percentage of dimwitted members, so…

        1. avatar Southern Cross says:

          In Australia we call them “The Greens” party.

          Described by some commentators as “idiots, imbeciles, and undergraduates”.

  10. avatar formerwaterwalker says:

    Ummmm..let’s not edumacate dumbfluck dumbocrats. Those with a(very) short memory forget the Navy yard shooter. Definite rumblings of banning so-called “tactical” 18″ barrel shotties. Up close and personal yeah I want a shotgun…

  11. avatar TyrannyOfEvilMen says:

    LOL… Of course the statist wants all of the guns eventually, the fact that they don’t know anything about them not withstanding.

  12. avatar Ralph says:

    I like the word Democrap.

    1. avatar Indiana Tom says:


  13. avatar cjstl says:

    Sigh… I hate when people use disingenuous arguments to try and make a point. A scattergun is more lethal against a single target at close range, but you can’t compare a shotgun shell to a semiautomatic rifle in terms of ability to take down multiple targets in a short time. That’s like saying my Glock 19 with the Advantage Arms .22 Conversion Kit and 30 round magazine is as lethal as an AR-15. Would anyone out there try and make that argument? I like being able to send 30 rounds downrange without having to reload, but that isn’t the weapon I’d take with me on a shooting spree…

    1. avatar Cliff H says:

      In a small closed space with 300+ targets and limited exits, where the shooter is only interested in getting hits, not WHO he hits, and he knows with reasonable certainty that no one will be shooting back, a shotgun with 00 buck would be devastating. I shudder to think of the result of aiming head-high into such a crowd. And that’s not to mention the available horizontal choke that gives a flat pattern instead of a round pattern.

    2. avatar Stu in AZ says:

      God help the poor, disarmed souls who are at the mercy of a Saiga-wielding Muslim extremist. Instead of needing 3-4 .223 rounds per victim, one shell for each would suffice.

    3. avatar Fred Frendly says:

      Sigh….why put a .22 conversion on your G19 when you can just insert a 31 rd mag and have 31 rds of 9MM? Talk about disingenuous…..you miss the point entirely.

  14. avatar Phil LA says:

    Obamacare and common core: proof that Democrats don’t need math.

  15. avatar Ken says:

    I’m far more afraid of my 12 gauge at normal range than a AF15. The shooter could miss me with an AR 15 but a 112 gauge with 00 buck shot will probably hit me and anyone else near me. My 12 gauge pump is not that much slower than a semi-auto rifle if you actually take aim with rifle. Aiming is not much of an issue with a shotgun as long as you point it in the general direction of your target.

    1. avatar Curtis in IL says:

      Clearly you have never patterned a shotgun.

      Before you spend more time parroting ignorant, internet-inspired misinformation, take a 12 gauge to the range, load it with 00 buck, and shoot some paper plates at 10 yards.

      (Hint – if you’re any good, you can get all nine pellets on a 10″ paper plate at that distance.)

      Notwithstanding the semantics of aiming vs. pointing a shotgun (the difference is not relevant here), if you think all you need to do to hit something with a shotgun is point it in the general direction, then you know less about shotguns than Joe Biden.

      1. avatar Taylor TX says:

        Thank you for that, I was about to let loose as well.

      2. You and Taylor are correct. When I bought my Mossberg 930 JM Pro, it only had one choke, Modified. I had to get very good at aiming to hit clays. I was able to hit more than half. At the range one day, a guy in the next lane was shooting bird shot and sometimes hitting only half of the paper of a full size silhouette. Then he hit the backing holder and knocked the entire target to the floor. I was shooting mine and was getting all pellets within the torso area from 15 yards. I thought, no wonder I couldn’t hit the fast moving clays. Have a Skeet choke now and I’m around 90% hits.
        But I think the topic is concerning mass shooters. Shooting into a crowd. I think the shotgun could be devastating in that scenario.

  16. avatar Priest of the center mass says:

    This is why we can’t have nice things.
    Eventually they are coming for my rape whistle!

  17. avatar Larry says:

    When deployed always had Mossberg 500 or 590A1 for CQB hard to beat a 12ga

  18. avatar Libertarian says:

    An suppressed sbs double stage bullpup shotgun in the fn p90 art white 30 +1 rounds is an wet dream for me.
    Closed to 18/26 + and it can traveld to mostley non communistic states after one tax infrigment accept.

  19. avatar Ed Davis says:

    This article misses the point. The Leftist politician’s focus on the AR-15 is not the result of mathematical incompetence. Nor is it about safety, crime control, or any form of “common sense.” The Leftists’ obsession with the rifles springs from their understanding that the rifles diminish the state’s preponderance of force.

    1. avatar Old Ben turning in grave says:

      That, plus the fact that they know they have no chance of convincing the public to ban handguns right now.

    2. avatar Stillwood says:

      Precisely. Leftists fear firearms for the same reasons criminals do. A parasite facing a dangerous host will squeal any nonsense to try to even the odds.

  20. avatar KenB says:

    the power of a shotgun is absolutely devastating, anyone who fears an ar has never used a shotgun (or an ar for that matter)

  21. avatar Jonathan says:

    #1 buck is 15 .30 cal pellet in a 2.75″. Yes, I am loaded up with 8 rounds in my 870 for HD. I assume its all I need for HD.

  22. avatar Kaban says:

    Giving too much space to “witty” comment that best left where it belongs (among comment) is what “AR hurt my shoulder” writer trolls love. Not good.

  23. avatar Fred Frendly says:

    Guess this made some people think, which is a good thing. Stupid Democrat swine don’t want people thinking. The basic premise that a bare bones 200.00 shotgun can put more and larger pieces of lead on short range targets is sound.

    As far as making shotguns the next cause du celeb of the Democrat swine, well, they are playing for all the marbles anyway. Don’t blame me for pointing out the mathematic idiocy of their arguments. Once they get their “assault rifle” ban they will march on to the handgun ban, the single shot 50 ban, the airgun ban, the crossbow ban, the blowpipe ban. Then Crazy Joes double barrel will be the last into the recycling grinder in their delusional utopia. Of course, the realists among us know that all these guns arent going anywhere. There are too many in too many hands, especially in the last couple years thanks to Obama. In that sense, he has done a great service to the gun community. That said, the gun grabbing leftists will never stop their attempts to completely shred the Bill of Rights, starting with the 1st Amendment, which TTAG has provided a wonderful forum to pursue.

    These stupid Democrat swine are blaming inanimate objects for the criminal actions of humans. The mere premise of their argument is completely illogical and inane. Countering them with logic and truth is all I have.

  24. avatar Chris T from KY says:

    My five shot revolver 410 tarus judge is my night stand “shotgun”. PDX Defender ammunition. Four pellets and sixteen BBs per shell.
    An invader might crawl through my window but they will be carried out the front door feet first.
    My 590 with a 20 inch barrel is harder to maneuver in a hallway than a hand gun.

  25. avatar KJ says:

    Do we really want this posted? All that this does in my opinion is tell the potg what we already know and give fuel to the left. Think with their logic: if shotguns are more lethal than AR’s, then ban both. They won’t see this and decide not to ban “assault weapons.” I guess it’s just for the sake of discussion but I honestly don’t see what good can come from this.

    (I hate that my first post is negative. I’ve been lurking around ttag for a year. I love this site.)

    1. avatar Hasdrubal says:

      You’re operating under the assumption that they don’t actually want to take all guns, period. They do. It’s an incremental approach, they are never satisfied until they have accumulated all power over every aspect of human life. For guns, it starts with machine guns and short barrels, then concealed carry, then open carry. They don’t want you to have a military rifle, because bolt actions are good enough for hunting. If they ever managed to get the ARs confiscated, then they would start making noise about how bolt actions are really sniper rifles, and didn’t we just have this conversation about how military rifles don’t belong in civilian hands?

      It’s not just guns, either. They don’t want you to have a big car, so they gradually ramp up the mileage requirements. They don’t want you to smoke, so they keep raising the taxes. People switch to the e-cigarettes, and they try and ban those too, but somehow marijuana is still ok- I’m sure it’s not because the kind of people who use it are already fans of big government…

      Think of any aspect of life, and I bet you can find a way the political left wants to tell you what you can do, when you can do it, and how much you need to pay them to regulate it. Unless it’s something that encourages or protects freedom. Then you’re a domestic terror risk and need to be stopped. Or at least put on a list somewhere.

      Oh, and shotguns? Those are so terribly destructive that the Germans thought they shouldn’t be allowed in civilized warfare back in WW1. How on earth can you let the great unwashed have weapons so dastardly even the Germans thought they were too much?

    2. avatar Fred Frendly says:

      Based on your leftist logic, the 1st Amendment should be struck down and the internet as well. There are umpteen million web pages how to reload ammo, how to use various weapons, how to employ military tactics etc etc….

      When you expound censorship of thoughts, and facts, you are ready for Hillary.

  26. avatar Frank Waturi says:

    I imagine that when they get around to banning shotguns that M4 is going to be at the top of the list.

    1. avatar Bob says:

      Yes, but only after the Saigas, VEPRs, MKA1919, etc..mag feed shotguns are considered double evil.

  27. avatar LHW says:

    Don’t give then any ideas.

  28. avatar James69 says:

    Ive been saying it for years. The S&W Governor puts as much or more rounds in the air as a wonder 9. Add 0 chance of a safety fumble or jam and it’s hands down the #1 home defender. Not even touching on the fact it can use full moon .45 (ACP) clips or buffalo bore .45 colt’s.

  29. avatar JR says:

    More projectiles are leaving the barrel for sure, but that doesn’t equate to more targets hit. A 9 shot round of 00 isn’t going to hit 9 targets. It will likely hit 1 target 9 times. I would say the math here isn’t incorrect, but doesn’t really make a solid point.

    1. avatar Fred Frendly says:

      It makes the point that all the furor over “high capacity” is just a myth used by the gun grabbers. In the Orlando shooting, not everyone was hit, does that mean the AR15 (MCX) is an incredibly in accurate platform? Or is it that in these shootings, its not the accuracy that matters but the TERROR that is created? Without getting into the complicated math of hit ratios in the various AR15 involved shootings, suffice to say, a shotgun would have created the same terror and casualty rates. What seems to be escaping the commentors like yourself here, but which Farago obviously understood clearly, is that the leftist argument that “high capacity” firearms are in and of themselves somehow more lethal is just a flat out lie which is deconstructed simply with comparison to other platforms which the left has considered “OK” in their byzantine approach to gun control.

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