convenience store clerk shooting
Courtesy KHOU
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Situational awareness can save lives, and an 80-year-old store owner protected himself by being vigilant and seeing the attack coming on the store’s security cameras. “He shot my arm off!,” screamed one of the well-armed (I mean, he was well-armed until one was blown off), would-be robbers in the security camera video below:


♬ original sound – nbcnews

According to

Surveillance video shows several people arriving in a black SUV at the Norco Market & Liquor in the 800 block of Sixth Street around 2:45 a.m. Sunday.

One of the would-be robbers enters the store with a rifle drawn, but seconds later, the store owner steps behind a glass display case and fires a single shot. The suspect immediately retreats to a waiting vehicle, repeatedly shouting: “He shot my arm off!”

In an interview with Fox 11 Los Angles, Norco store owner Craig Cope says that he saw the red flags when these men approached. Cope was watching security footage and saw that the robbers “didn’t park where a normal person would park” then moving to the side of the building out of sight.

Cope then saw them get out of the car with ”gloves, masks, weapons” and knew what was about to happen. He prepared himself and didn’t hesitate explaining that if you point a gun at him he won’t wait on the police.

The would-be robbers have been arrested except for the one who was shot. He’s in the hospital receiving treatment. However, once he is released he will be under arrest too.

Shortly after the shooting, Cope suffered from a minor heart attack but recovered a few days later, saying he plans to continue to run the store and if any robbers are out, “this isn’t a good place to pick.”


NORCO, Calif. (AP) — A man armed with a rifle was shot by a quick-acting convenience store owner who pulled a shotgun out from behind the counter and opened fire during an attempted robbery in Southern California.

The faceoff was recorded by surveillance cameras at the convenience store around 2:45 a.m. Sunday in Norco, a city that bills itself as “Horsetown USA.”

Four suspects, their faces covered, pulled up to the business in a BMW SUV and walked inside the store with their rifles pointed, according to the Riverside County Sheriff’s Department.

The owner grabbed a shotgun and fired one round from behind the counter, according to video aired by KCBS-TV. An employee identified the owner as an 80-year-old man to the TV station.

The suspects fled as one screamed, “He shot my arm off, he shot my arm off!”

The sheriff’s department commended the employee’s actions.

“In this case, a lawfully armed member of our community prevented a violent crime and ensured their own safety, while being confronted with multiple armed suspects,” according to a statement.

Authorities found the injured suspect in a hospital, suffering from a gunshot wound that appeared to be from a shotgun blast. The other three suspects were found at the hospital in the BMW, which had been previously reported as stolen. Law enforcement found stolen guns in the SUV.

Three suspects were arrested and booked on suspicion of robbery and conspiracy. They are being held on $500,000 bail.

The main suspect remained in the hospital in critical but stable condition. He will be booked into jail after he is released from the hospital.


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    • Or was it .9mm? I didn’t see the guy’s arm fly off, maybe I missed it, too fast. They almost left one behind, that would have been nice.

      Make the perps pay the medical bills for both the store worker and their one armed buddy.

      • Make the perps pay.
        With what?
        There going to be in prison making 35 cents a day if they’re lucky.
        And taking their property as restitution?
        Everything they own was stolen.

        • They pay it the same way people pay when there’s a judgement against them. They get a real job, and a portion gets taken out for their debts. Don’t want a real job? Back to prison then.

    • THe opening comment specificxally says a SHOTGUN and in fact you can see the guy peeping round a corner with one A ARE you blind or just stupid? I know that you s despewrately WANT it to be a 9mm because that’s probably what you have but this shopkeeper WAS prepared with gun to in hand — in the opening comment he actually tells the police so so! He did NOT shoot the guy withn the rifle he shot a guy out of sight of the security camera.
      If the robbers had intended, as a first resort, to kill that shopkeeper would have already been dead by the way. That’s not to excuse them – that’s a statement of fact. AS far as I can see they were so ineptbthat the guy with the ASSAULT rifle was not even pointing at the shopkeeper.
      So what’s the ADVICE NOW? KEEP a SHOTGUN in hand whenever you serve a customer? Because if the shopkeeper has had to go for a handgun he would have been as dead as mutton. Byn the way it’s very very unlikely that a 9mm would take any buggers ARM OFF

      • Well if it could blow a lung out, I would assume it could blow an arm off. As a general rule, the worst people never have a sense of humor.

        • You need a sense of humor if you’re going to read Al’s posts.

          He’s funnier than Benny Hill on his better days. And just as factual.

        • Benny Hill was a comedic genius; he took dry British humor to a whole new level (not quite Monty Python level), but I was amused by his ability to get so much subtle sexual innuendo past those BBC censors. On the other hand, Albert is just a pathetic moron struggling to be relevant in a world where has absolutely no clue.

      • It’s. A. JOKE! See, President* Pudding Cup said that a 9mm would blow…oh forget it. It’s over your head.

      • THe opening comment specificxally says a SHOTGUN

        (specificxally?) And as EVERYONE else is fully AWARE the video also SHOWS the “SHOTGUN” the 9mm aspect is a RUNNING JOKE among AMERICANS making fun of our BRAINDEAD Presidents referral to a “9mm blowing a lung clean out of a person’s body”. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT and KNOWLEDGE of the subject are absolutely a prime requisite before attempting to correct a fucking JOKE. I implore you to PLEASE STOP putting YOUR ignorance on display and EMBARRASSING yourself and ALL Brits and learn how to spell.

      • Ya’ll are wasting your breath trying to answer Al’s questions. He doesn’t ask because he wants to learn something new or come to an understanding of another person’s point of view. His questions are disingenuous. They’re designed purely to hold his imagined moral superiority over everyone else.

        He won’t ever come back to look at answers.

        • Yeah, that’s ALL true but something about a slimy “alleged” Limey that just pushes that button… I know he doesn’t respond and probably doesn’t come back to read responses to him (that would require some degree of intellect that he/she/it/them/they/ugghhh seems to be bereft of) but what the hell it’s kind of a 1776 thing. Besides he doesn’t “ASK” questions he lectures like he’s talking to a bunch of grade school children, and I just hate being lectured.

  1. Huh. I saw that posted as a meme image. Didn’t realize it was based off of an actual incident.

    Also: time to buy a shotgun I guess. :O <3

    • Careful … if AR-15s are evil mass-killing machines, and a guy holding one can be readily defeated by a shotgun, clearly shotguns need to be banned. For the ARs, I guess…?

  2. Well, so much for AR-15s turning the average churchgoing choir boy into unstoppable killing machines.

  3. I’ve seen countless of these videos. 3-4 well armed bad guys storm a store or residence and when that first shot is fired they run over each other to get away.

    Carry what suits you and fight back. Even if the odds look bad. Fight.

    • Pretty much, the situations where a shotgun/pistol isn’t enough would be dire even with a fully decked out rifle w/body armor. Not to say you shouldn’t get the fully decked out rifle but generally any effective resistance is enough and when it isn’t keep shooting till it is or it doesn’t matter.

      • I load my 12ga pump with (1) 00 buck (2) slug (3) 00 (4) slug (5) 00 (6) slug (7) 00 (8) slug (9) 00 (10) slug… W/4 round magazine extension and one in the chamber. That should hold them til I can get to an AR or AK if it’s that dire..

      • Lol 50 feet or less in my case so it seems our choices are well selected for over penetration concerns. Didn’t stop me from having a 45-70 on hand for the upper floor but fewer options back then.

    • According to Kleck’s “Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America” – the leading authority on the subject of compliance:

      1. Any form of resistance, except with firearm, carries with it an injury rate of 52%.

      2. Resistance with a firearm carried with it the risk of injury of 17%, but use of a firearm early in an encounter carries with it a risk of injury of 6%.

      Overall, in Kleck, you have a minimum of a 25% chance of being injured if you comply, but you are 4 time less likely to be injured if you have your firearm and are prepared to use it.

      Take away here summary: compliance may still result in injury (which includes death), resistance without a firearm carries a 52% chance of injury (which includes death), resistance with a firearm lowers chance of injury (which includes death) to 17%, resistance with a firearm early in the encounter further lowers risk of injury (which includes death) to 6%

      If you are armed are you willing to gamble that you are not in the 25%?
      if you are not armed are you willing to gamble that you are not in the 52%?

      Compliance or not, resistance or not – is not a decision one needs to make. The answer is already provided, non-compliance via firearms resistance offers the best chance of less injury. But if you want, you can roll the dice and take the chance of being a good-n-dead witness.

      • Relying on the benevolence of criminals is not a good idea. They may decide to eliminate witnesses or just boost their street cred. And often on drugs will not be rational or logical.

        • Eh, wat the ‘ell’s going on in the QLD? We’ve received definitive assurances if we adopt AU style gun control law this is impossible!

          I have empathy for the victims, but also love when reality shines a spotlight on the lies. Take heed Minor, Darcyian, NTEXAS, FakeLimey, and all the rest of the delusional trolls.

    • Ever true, regardless of the situation.

      Refuse to be a victim. Refuse to be a subject. Take up arms and enforce it should it not be respected.

  4. Question:

    Does the flight of pellets from a shotgun barrel immediately spread out into a cone shaped pattern, or is the “wad” of pellets contained to, say, a softball sized grouping for several feet before spreading?

    • In a small space, like your house or a small liquor store the pellets will not spread a great deal. In my own experience the spread inside of ten yards isn’t much bigger than your fist, if that. In spite of hollywood action hero’s a shotguns needs to be aimed.

      What a shotgun brings to the table as a defensive weapon is the massive impact of 1+ ounce of shot. At close range the entire load hits the perp and chews him up.

      I don’t know where I read this but the accepted wisdom was that with a handgun you got a one shot fatality in about 5% of the times. With a rifle it was about 50% of the time and with a shotgun it was 95% of the time.

      I have 2 shotguns, one upstairs and one down as house guns.

      • While I focused on loadings below this is the more relevant overall factor especially for home and small footprint businesses.

      • jwm, you’re right about a shotgun being a decisive weapon. With in its range. That 90% fatalitay rate might even be a bit low. In my experience anyway. That 50% fatality rate for rifles is very low. In my experience. Thing is I never kept studies (sorry, duncian) but I remember centerfire rifle cartridges with soft point ammunition to be just as deadly as a close range shotgun blast. Except, you can do it from farther away.

        • I live in CA and I’m not a cop. Trying long range here and claiming self defense is going to be an uphill battle.

        • “Except, you can do it from farther away.”

          Speaking of….

          “Before you criticize someone, first walk a mile in their shoes. Then, when you criticize, you are a mile away…and you have their shoes.”

        • When a bad guy, a ‘perp’, in the act of doing his ‘bad guy’ thing, hears the cocking of a shotgun, it is an awesome sound all by itself, that bad guy, unless he is whacked out of his head for some reason, will poop his panties and run like hell.

      • jwm, I understand. I spend a bit of time outside on large acreage. Any bad guy I bump into may have a centerfire rifle. I want one too. I just use the same thing at home. It’s simpler.

      • jwm,

        I have 2 shotguns, one upstairs and one down as house guns.

        Me too. Mine are 20 gauge and loaded with slugs. What gauge are yours? What load?

        For reference: a .62 caliber, 273-grain slug with a muzzle velocity of 1,600 feet-per-second is a decisive fight stopper.

      • “In my own experience the spread inside of ten yards isn’t much bigger than your fist, if that.”

        A duckbill director tube can flatten the spread a bit…

      • “In my own experience the spread inside of ten yards isn’t much bigger than your fist, if that. ”


        One more question, do you know if the spread is smaller or wider with a short barrel shotgun?

        Asking because I can’t afford a shotgun, but I do have some yard hose with 1in diameter, a board, some nails, and a bicycle tire I can cut for a hammer spring. I don’t want to run afoul of NFA. Oh, yeah, I have a soldering iron for burning a serial number into the hose sections, and the clothespin fire control system. Might even be able to safely brand the trigger strap without weakening it too much.

        I have no metal tubes, washers, or scrub pads in the house that might be considered constructive possession of an unregistered silencer.

        Do shotguns have silencers?

        • The shot spread is more to do with choke than length of barrel. As for silencers on a shotgun? I don’t know. I’m really not well versed on cans, living in CA and all.

        • Sam:
          “Asking because I can’t afford a shotgun…”
          My suggestion is that you get a jar and start throwing all of your loose change into it. Then… you will eventually be able to afford a shotgun.

        • IIRC integrally suppressed shotguns are a thing. I expect attached cans, if they exist, would be slug-only. Baffles wouldn’t survive the first shell of shot.

        • IIRC integrally suppressed shotguns are a thing. I expect attached cans, if they exist, would be slug-only. Baffles wouldn’t survive the first shell of shot.

          Nah, shotty suppressors can handle pretty much anything if they’re built right. The contradicted ammo is steel shot.

    • Will depend on the distance. I once shot a 20 gauge shot gun with #4 shot at about 7 to 10 yards as I actually don’t remember exactly but it blew a perfect 4 inch diameter circle in the paper target. So at that range the shot is still fairly compacted. It made me wonder what a person would look like after taking a blast like that in the chest even with #4 shot. I am sure it wouldn’t be pretty.

      • In the long ago past, I knew a man who survived a load of birdshot to his chest, shoulder, arm and face. If you really want to know what it looks like, just look up burn victims and burn survivors. I’m talking about the serious burns, not sunburns and common stove top accidents – it looks a lot like the skin was melted down, swirled around, then cooled off. Nasty, ugly stuff.

    • Depends on loading, I found the loose packed buckshot (ace tactical is the only one I remember seeing lately) I have seen a fair amount of spread at 5-7 yards sometimes bigger than a dinner plate. For buffered buckshot (federal, estate, fiocchi) do not even notice spread until 5 yards and not to the size of the loose packed until about 12-15 yards. Mind you this is all out of a open cylinder remmingtion 870 with 18.5 barrel so differences in equipment will probably change numbers a bit.

      • SAFEupstateFML,

        I remember hearing something about expecting a 1-inch spread of your shot for every three feet beyond the barrel, although I have no idea if that was an 18.5-inch barrel with open (cylinder) choke or a longer barrel with some kind of choke.

        If that rule-of-thumb is true, then your shot pattern at the following distances would be:

        distance, shot pattern
        ——— , ————
        6-feet, 2-inches wide
        9-feet, 3-inches wide
        12-feet, 4-inches wide
        15 feet, 5-inches wide
        18 feet, 6-inches wide
        21 feet, 7-inches wide
        24 feet, 8-inches wide
        27 feet, 9-inches wide
        30 feet, 10-inches wide

        The above distances and spread patterns seem plausible, maybe a tiny bit on the large side although not necessarily if coming out of an 18.5-inch barrel with no choke.

        • Sam I Am,

          Many (all?) home-defense type shotguns with 18.5-inch barrels do not have any choke on their barrels. In other words their barrels are more-or-less just a straight tube with an opening at the muzzle.

          The last inch (or so) of shotgun barrels designed for bird or small-game hunting have threads which accept chokes. Chokes are short cylinders approximately 1.5-inches long (of varying thicknesses) which slightly constrict the last 1.5-inches of the shotgun barrel. That constriction tightens the shot leaving the barrel and hence tightens the shot pattern. How much a given choke tightens the shot pattern is a function of how much the choke reduces the inner diameter of the barrel.

          Chokes which simply protect those threads at the end of the barrel without reducing the inner diameter of the barrel at the muzzle are “cylinder” chokes. That name reflects the fact that such a choke does nothing and merely ensures that the barrel is simply a cylinder without any constriction at the muzzle. Thus, we refer to “home defense” shotguns with 18.5-inch barrels which do not have threads for chokes as having a “cylinder choke”. In reality they do not have any choke at all and we refer to them as having a cylinder choke so that people know those barrels will not tighten the shot pattern.

          Other chokes reduce the inner diameter of the barrel to varying degrees and therefore compress the shot pattern to varying degrees.

    • A load of shot out of a shotgun travels through the air in the form of an enlarging, roughly spherical cloud, that will both spread and elongate over distance. The smaller bores like 28 gauge or .410 usually have a more elongated cloud, more like a column, especially with heavier loads. The trajectory of the cloud will be like a cone, with base diameters as noted above. A cloud of pellets can be quite destructive at close range, but not necessarily so. It will seldom act as a single mass (think a monolithic slug), especially with the smaller shot sizes. Consider repeatedly shooting a BB gun into the same spot 200 times against a close dirt bank, and then shoot a nearby spot with a single slug. Granted, there is some interaction between the pellets and target medium that can increase the damage when shot as a small cloud rather then as 200 repeated individual shots, but it won’t consistently have the same effect as a single large slug.

      • Thanx. My curiosity is about why the shotgun used in the robbery defense didn’t tear up everything in the store, forward of the shotgun barrel.

        • Anecdotally, it stays together better than some might think it would. For instance, I shot low on a turkey last year that blew past the decoy and was just running in to my call, I usually hit ’em in the head but this one I hit in the left breast at about 25 yards with #5 buckshot. It took a fist-sized chunk out and ruined half the breast on a big bird, 24-25 pounds.
          I own 8 shotguns, including two Mossy 12 ga. turkey guns (semi and a pump), a Remington 16 ga. semi-auto, a Remington 870, a 10 ga. single shot, a 12 ga. Shockwave for the truck, and the house gun, a Mossy 12 ga. Retro Persuader. I own a whole lot of .00, but i really like #4 for HD.

      • Interesting video. The crayon load had a more powerful impact on the gel block, than the “slug”. Any takeaway from that?

        • The crayon didn’t leave the gel block after impact. Meaning, the gel block absorbed ALL of the kinetic energy of the crayon load. In real life, if a bullet or pellet load passes through the softer portions of the body, there will likely be less apparent damage that when the projectiles are stopped inside the body by bone, or whatever.

    • Ok folks, class is in sesh.

      The general rule with shot is 1″ spread per yd. traversed for well made plated shot. Can be significantly less for a given distance (10yd. typical), only if using specialized wads like Flitecontrol or Titewad, which are Federal’s & Hornady’s respectively branding for the exact same wad. FC & TW do act as a monolithic slug inside of that first ~10yd range, by the way, making them not ideal for defense against unarmored targets in an short range home defense environment. Spread is helpful there, but big ragged singular holes work just fine splattering major organs too.

      In a hostage situ, I am completely confident with those wads in getting off a head shot without worrying for the hostage’s safety within that specified range. Something I would never do with a shotgun otherwise.

      Neither Federal or Hornady makes them, but they do have semi-exclusivity contracts with the company who does.. They don’t sell those to the public either, so if you reload, you’re screwed into finding your fired wads that are in acceptable condition or buying equipped models & breaking them down, should you want custom loads.

      But why disassemble and rebuild? Because these “tungsten” rounds are actually pretty poor low quality alloys. Plus pure tungsten, or tungsten carbide ball bearings are far stronger and denser (read, more effective at penetration values, relevance later). Not all that expensive if you buy slightly out of spec defects either, and in the bearing industry, out of tolerance can mean as little as hundred’s of thousands of a inch of difference. Also why, b/c fck your armor more. That’s why.

      Switching gears. Something most do not know is what Fed & Hornady explicitly state’s is wrong. They say you cannot use Flitecontrol & Titewad’s through a choke, and that’s not strictly true. I find better grouping with Improved Cylinder to Light Mod, but a falloff exists around Light Mod dependent on whether using hard plated shot, un-plated, steel, or tungsten. Non plated tends to have a fair amount of fliers that the plated, or better still harder composition shot does not.

      Never use a heavier choke than Light Modified. IC for those lacking plating with those wads (Hornady only).

      On another note, good luck finding Tungsten Flitecontrol. I kinda wiped out the supply, I bought 10 more cases (2500rd) right before the WuFlu run commenced, and they’d been long discontinued by that point. Not for quality reasons, but because Federal bought out Hevi which specializes in tungsten shot (and is higher profit margin, though frankly lesser quality shells overall).

      PHD159 00 is the Federal part number, and they’re kinda spicy, forewarned and all, should you find some. 1 1/4oz @ 1600fps is heavy slug/nearing 3″ turkey load power and recoil, except in 00 buck. 9 pellet, but tungsten doesn’t dent so fliers aren’t an issue.

      Great for CQB and room clearing especially where armor may be in play, if you don’t care what’s on the other side of the walls. Or in stack up and get jacked up scenarios on the defender side of the equation. No AP? Next best thing to the custom loads I outlined above.

      For HD Sam, #4 Buck is king for less over-penetration and unfortunately, Federal quit making those in FC too. Plated shot as minimum for home defense. And for a novice, make sure and damned certain to pattern your gun at various ranges with whatever you choose as your defensive round, that is of critical importance.

      Remember, there is a lawyer attached to every round you send downrange. Act and prepare accordingly.

      Additional advice. Save your pennies and get a proper shotgun like a Maverick 88, and shit can that idea about a pipe shotgun. It’s a low cost alternative that punches well above it’s price class, although it’s never going to garner any design awards or oooh’s & aaaaah’s at the range. It does the most important of things well, which is it’s reliability, and plain out works.

  5. For once it is nice to see Grace Stevens just report what happened and not pontificate on how evil gun owners are and how they should accept not being able to defend themselves. This is the real world for far too many people today. Listening to this guy scream was very heart warming. I hope the anti-gunners note he was carrying an AR15 (I wonder if they will investigate if it was legal or not) and was aiming it at someone as he entered the store. Its too bad the store owner didn’t kill him on the spot with a head shot. Also, please note that one 80 year old drove off 4 of these punks with one shot. Very tough and brave guys? Cowards actually!!!!

    • (I wonder if they will investigate if it was legal or not)

      Probably was for the guy that clown stole it from…

    • Not sure if you’re trolling or not but she’s just as pro Gun as anyone else writing here. The one article I’ve seen recently that would be considered anti gun was her reproducing it as a way to show how idiotic the writer was.

      Some people need to learn how to read and recognize an article written by TTAG staff and one from a different source that they are reporting on.

    • Stated that they had a stolen BMW and stolen guns.

      Hoodrat cash is for buying pot/drugs not for buying guns or vehicles

  6. I live here in California and I’ve been following this story. According to local news reports the Robber may lose his hand from the shotgun blast. Luckily the store owner did not use a 9 millimeter because it may have removed his hand and lung completely from his body.

    • “Luckily the store owner did not use a 9 millimeter because it may have removed his hand and lung completely from his body.”

      That’s why the .9mm is so popular; effectively lethal, but not destructive.

      And the .9mm handgun is ever so easy to conceal.

      • Sam:
        “That’s why the .9mm is so popular; effectively lethal, but not destructive.”
        Please know that I do NOT mean this as a criticism of your comment, but there may be someone reading your comment who does not get the joke. For that person I would like to add the following:
        a.) Regarding firearms, .9mm is an error made by people who do not understand guns and/or the metric system of measurement. This error is sometimes made by uninformed media people. What they actually mean (but don’t understand) is 9mm (without the decimal point).
        b.) .9mm is ordinarily written as 0.9mm (in real life).
        c.) 0.9mm is the equivalent of 0.0354 inches approximately.
        d.) An air rifle BB measures 4.5mm or 0.177 inches.
        e.) So, the mythical .9mm round would be two tenths (0.2) the size of a BB or less than the diameter of the small sewing needle (1.1mm) that I measured just now for comparison.

        • Albert has probably never noticed the decimal point, he’s too busy leading Americans to the soshullist lifestyle he enjoys so much, provided you can decipher his inane messages after wading through his 1st grade level spelling and grammar. Funny how a JOKE begins to lose its humor value once you start explaining it to some idiot that just doesn’t get it.

        • “Please know that I do NOT mean this as a criticism of your comment, but there may be someone reading your comment who does not get the joke.”

          Well, rats. If my joke needs explaining, guess it wasn’t funny afterall. Gotta get some new material. Shudda watched the latest Chappelle video.

  7. Perhaps he’ll not leave any finger prints behind from that arm in his next robbery, and, that’s just fine with me.

    There’s a song somewhere I’ve heard, “Some fools never learn”.

  8. Where’s our resident troll who always spouts off on how resisting is useless and will result in your death, and how you should just hand over all your belongings? Isn’t it about time he showed up and enlightens us?

  9. What’s going to happen to these poor idiots who risk life and limb for a few hundred bucks from a register when society goes full cashless? The Build Back Better and WEF crowd doesn;t seem to think about these poor souls who are just trying to feed their families.

    • Get people desensitized to crooks getting popped so it is easier to ignore shooting people trying to feed their disenfranchised families? Worst case sci fi take but less unlikely as it used to be.


  11. According to Joe Biden on use of shotguns “just walk out on the balcony…walk out, put that double barrel shot gun and fire two blasts outside….” and you want to keep someone away…just fire the shotgun through the door.’

    Hey Joe, guess what would not have worked here.

    • “Hey Joe, guess what would not have worked here.”

      Don’t be so quick to reach conclusions.

      First, there was no balcony from which to fire two blasts. Thus we do not know if shooting from a balcony would have scared off the robbers.

      Second, the robbers were already inside, when the owner reached for the shotgun. Thus, we do not know if blasting a shot through the front door, before the robbers entered, would have scared off the robbers.

      We need more data.

      Jes’ sayin’.

  12. A couple of friends and I did some informal experimenting trying to figure out what was the best choice for shotgun ammo for short range defense such as in the home.
    We used jugs of water, melons, assorted wallboard materials and a door to try to test over-penetration. Kind of surprisingly we found the best 12 gua. load to be high-brass lead #2 shot like what you’d use for geese where lead is allowed. The devastation at 10 yards was epic, without any over-penetration concerns.
    Ever since, the coach gun I keep at the ready, is loaded with 2 3/4″ magnum “deuces”.

        • Agree.

          Unless your attacker is within a few feet, bird shot is not a very effective stopper.

      • Flannel Daddy did a lethality test not so long ago with Federal slug, 00, and #7 bird.

        #7 achieved ~lethality somewhere on the low side of between 10-5m. 15m and out of the fight with a head shot. Torso, barely scratched the surface of the liver at the same distance. Still didn’t achieve FBI specifications for guaranteed ded on a torso shot at 5m.

        Typical home ranges, #4 buck for me please and thank you.

        • Long long ago a relative woke up and a man was in his kitchen and anyway he got shot with a little .410 with small shot loaded. The robber died quickly and the ambulance man commented that the 410 has a long shot string and penetrates a great deal.

  13. This has to be fake news. It happened in California and not only is the store owner not under arrest, but was commended by the Sheriff? (JK – I know that not all of California has been infected by the idiocy of the big cities, same thing here in Washington).

  14. These “young black men” punk scumbags need to find another line of work. He runs out of the store screaming like a b*tch,..”he blew my arm off,he blew my arm off”. They head straight to the hospital so they can try to repair his blown off arm with tax payer dollars just so he commit more crime in the future. The store owner did a great job of protecting himself and his property. I just wish shot placement would be more center mass.

  15. So, did the perp actually have his arm “blown clean off,” as Inspector Callahan would say?

    Above or below the elbow?

    Is the “treatment” that he received in the hospital, an amputation of the remainder?

    Inquiring minds want to know!

  16. This is a video that can be enjoyed over and over again,just like the recent bodega incident in NY. Good guys winning is a great thing.

  17. The more criminals that get shot or killed the more ruthless they will become.
    Theres no fear when you do not care if your dead or alive.
    Death is a part of life, take what we can, role it until we shot or caught. Dont mean nothing.
    I am a little disheartened to see that the criminal used an AR. More fuel to the fire for the assault weapons ban.
    What stops a bad guy with a gunm? A cheap gunm that jams.
    They never should have stopped making Lorcins.


    And, yes, for you sensitive little cupcakes, I know how to use the CAPS key. That’s how the meme is always shown.

  19. Nice shot, but I wouldn’t want to talk to the press about the way in which I knew a robbery was coming. If anyone decides to get revenge they’ll make sure to walk in with a concealed pistol instead.

    And talking to the press is almost never a good idea.

    • Your comment is awaiting moderation
      Guy has been TV a dozen times today; gets cockier every time I see him. I wouldn’t want them to even know my name.

      • WTF is wrong with this? Somebody needs to clean that shit up what the fuck happened to the FIRST amendment? I recall this site being one of the first to bitch about facebook and twitter when they started censoring everything conservative.

        • “Somebody needs to clean that shit up what the fuck happened to the FIRST amendment?”

          The first amendment applies to government. If you come into my store, and start cursing, I can legally refuse to tolerate your speech, as your continued presence and speech is trespassing on my property.

          From what I observed over the last few years, there are two reviews for content: WorldPress and TTAG. TTAG has no influence over the WP review.

        • Maybe YOU can tell me what the hell caused the “moderation” and yeah you CAN refuse to “tolerate” my speech in YOUR store, but any attempt to control/stifle it would most likely require some physical effort. You can ask me to leave YOUR store and I would certainly comply since it is your property, but you have no right to try to control what I say, only that I can’t continue to say on Your property.

  20. All these comments and still no one has done the obligatory. *sigh* Allow me to set the universe right…

    “Now, stand aside worthy adversary!”

    “‘Tis but a scratch!”

  21. @The TTAG Shadow
    “My suggestion is that you get a jar and start throwing all of your loose change into it. Then… you will eventually be able to afford a shotgun.”

    Money in the jar is what I use for buying Ripple (which I mix with champagne to make Champipple).

    On top of your suggestion, my neighbor next door tell me that using garden hose sections for a shotgun barrel will not hold up to more than one use. He says I need to get metal tubes.

    I asked the guy at the hardware store which type of metal pipe would hold up for use as a shotgun barrel. That led to a private meeting with the store manager, who wanted a bunch of personal information. At that point I told the manager, “Forget it.” And attempted to leave. That led to a heated discussion of applicable law justifying detaining me. Which led to a permanent suspension of my ability to enter the store in the future. You can imagine what collecting pennies in a jar might ultimately lead to.

    • A heated argument? With a hardware store manager? Dude…

      Don’t argue. Make the simple declaration that you are leaving and do so in a manner that exudes boredom with the situation. Then move with confidence. If they block your path keep a calm and relaxed posture and a bored look on your face with constant eye contact. Wait until the guy plants his feet and then move at 45 degrees to him so that you can around him, force him to follow you to maintain eye contact, the person who has to move their head first has lost.

      High percentage move* to disrupt his “authority” by ignoring his perception of situational power dynamics. Throws people for a loop better than 90% of the time, unless they really do have power like they’re a cop or something. Other than that, he’s bluffing and you called it. He’ll wilt.

      If he gets in your way walk through him, hard, preferably in a way that puts him on his ass but at least forces a step back and just keep going. Not fast, just keep exuding that bored “What a waste of fuckin’ time” sorta mentality. If he puts hands on you at that point he’s the physical aggressor, respond with necessary force.

      Always act like these people bore the fuck out of you. If they persist add a slight touch of amusement that conveys you barely tolerating this obtuse behavior (bemusement if you like brevity). He’s used to bullying employees. You don’t work for him/her. Fuck him/her.

      The hardware store manager, 99% of the time, isn’t going to pick a fight and end up in jail over anything.

      *Doesn’t tend to work if the person smells like meth.

      • “Don’t argue. Make the simple declaration that you are leaving and do so in a manner that exudes boredom with the situation.”

        Good points, all.

        I do tend to get feisty when I drink too much orange juice at breakfast.

        • In case you’re wondering why this works, it hijacks the other person’s brain.

          They’ve built a model of how this interaction will go, they will say something and you’ll comply/listen.

          When you don’t, the plan’s not going well. They’ll automatically reassess the situation, IIRC this is due in a shift in control within the brain from the cortex to the hippocampus. The hardwired response is a mixture of curiosity and anxiety while more information about the unexpected situation is gathered to determine the new appropriate course of action.

          Your continued “odd” behavior means that the amount of required information grows as the situation continues. This may cause significant anxiety, curiousity or a mix. Regardless, it lengthens the amount of time the person needs to formulate a new plan and as long as that’s the case you’re “inside their OODA loop”.

          It won’t work with people who already have a plan to deal with this sort of thing, like cops, but with what you might call “fake” authority figures like a manager, they’re fucked because they have no backup plan and must gather new information on the fly to figure out what to do.

  22. @drednicolson
    “I expect attached cans, if they exist, would be slug-only. Baffles wouldn’t survive the first shell of shot.”

    Thinking liter size soft drink bottles would be cost effective. Is full, or empty, better?

    “…but you have no right to try to control what I say, only that I can’t continue to say on Your property”.

    My silencing your speech by removing you from my property is, itself, controlling speech (controlling the space where you may speak)…but not violating your 1st Amendment right to government controlled/regulated speech. WordPress and TTAG, by moderating, or removing our comments, is the same thing; not a violation of your 1st Amendment right to free (but regulated ) speech.

    As to your question about who started the “moderation” on TTAG, WordPress is not a right-wing, conservative publisher. TTAG does admit to some moderation actions, but I have not seen a detailed explanation of how TTAG’s review actually works.

    I have been “moderated” twice since 2013, both this year. I have no idea why, and cannot identify exactly which two comments were removed, or later released. It would be exceedingly instructive if both WordPress and TTAG would identify why a comment is “moderated” and/or removed.

    • y is, itself, controlling speech

      And again, I disagree you have not silenced me all you have done is exercise your right to control the activity on YOUR property, I simply walk outside and continue with whatever offended you. You are conflating control over your property to controlling what I say which by the way I will most likely have finished by the time you get around to asking me to leave, however I’m pretty sure you’ve missed my point so let’s forget about private property and move this discussion to a public space, an open forum if you will. I get “moderated” at least once a day with no explanation when it is released, I have learned that the proper spelling of soshullist is a trigger but NOT communist or fascist, va-gi-na is a trigger? and I was moderated for replying to a post about the three stooges, no profanity no attacks just a little FYI. I have been moderated as often as three times in one day only to see them reappear later in the day. A bit of guidance TTAG? What words OFFEND that algorithm? Inquiring minds want to know. OBTW: In the real world even though the wording says the Government shall pass no laws prohibiting speech the intent is obvious, that being you have the right to speak your mind wherever and whenever you deem necessary. My part in this little measuring contest is done you have your opinion and I have mine, I have no desire to get into a long drawn out back and forth I just want to know why you can spew profanity from now til then, but normal everyday words trigger moderation.

  24. “all you have done is exercise your right to control the activity on YOUR property,”

    Agree. Yet, on my property (my forum) you have been silenced. I wouldn’t care if you speak on some other property (or “the public square”)

    So it is with “moderation” at WordPress and TTAG. Both have temporarily (maybe permanently at some point) silenced you on their property (store). You can find other forums (properties), where you may write anything you like, without constraint (just as you may find a store other than mine, where you can say anything you like.

    Bottom line?

    WordPress and/or TTAG are not violating your 1st Amendment right to free speech in their stores.

    • This is one of those questions where you have to ask how they measured it and what it means to the shooter.

      No, 134 isn’t ear safe but does the shooter actually get that when the vast majority of the impulse is sent forward by an added device that channels the shockwave away from them in a way that greatly reduces the “wrap around” effect?

      I dunno. I still wear earpro when I shoot long guns suppressed. All my suppressed pistols are in .45 so I don’t bother with those. I haven’t personally used a shotty muffler I just know they exist.

      • “This is one of those questions where you have to ask how they measured it and what it means to the shooter.”

        Thanx, 9.

  25. @strych9
    “In case you’re wondering why this works, it hijacks the other person’s brain.”

    I can confirm that.

    Once upon a time, I violated a flight rule, based on the circumstance, and my personal experience regarding flight safety.

    Was invited to three re-calibration sessions with senior commanders. Each happily began the session with, “Do you know why I called you here?”. In all three cases I responded, “Yes, sir. I violated flight rules intentionally; a serious deviation. It was a decision I cannot defend.”

    Not one senior commander got to deliver his planned “ass-chewing” tirade; all the meetings were under three minutes.

    Found other occasions in the decades following; worked every time.

    • The larger the surprise the more uncomfortable it makes people.

      “It was a decision I cannot defend” is a heck of a cherry to put on top of the surprise sunday you were serving.


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