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“The York County deputy, Terrence Knox, pulled over Bobby Canipe of Lincolnton, N.C., for an expired license tag about 7:30 p.m. north of Clover, S.C.,” washingtonpost.com reports. “After stopping, Canipe got out of his pickup truck and reached into the bed, pulling out what Knox thought was a long-barreled rifle, Clover, S.C., York County sheriff’s spokesman Trent Faris said. It was Canipe’s walking cane. The officer fired several times, hitting Canipe once, Faris said. Faris refused to say where on his body Canipe was hit, but said he was expected to survive.” Even without knowing the totality of the circumstances, I don’t necessarily blame officer Knox for the shoot (although his marksmanship is a little suspect). Truth be told . . .

cops don’t want to get shot any more than you do. And unlike most armed civilians, they don’t have a clear idea of who the bad guy is. As the lottery folks liked to say, it could be you! For good or ill, their survival depends on the default supposition that everyone is a potential perp. An armed citizen – well all citizens – must keep this mindset in mind before, during and after any encounter with law enforcement.

In some states you have a duty to inform the officer if you’re carrying a gun. Despite the [perfectly justified] assertion that a concealed carry permit holder is less dangerous than the average schmo (as well as someone open carrying), telling a cop you’re packing heat does not put the officer at ease. All he hears is “I’m armed.” So if you communicate the fact that you’re exercising your natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms DON’T MOVE.

As with all police encounters, avoid ANY sudden movements. I know open carry advocates and other patriots will heartily disagree, but I reckon you should do whatever the cop or cops say and DO IT SLOWLY. By the same token, ask permission to do anything. Is it OK if I get my cane? Is it OK if I take out my phone and write down your badge number? Obsequious it may be but this strategy tells the cops what movement you are about to make before you make it.

This is especially true after a defensive gun use. Unfortunately, that’s also a time when your bloodstream will be suffused with adrenalin, which distorts your time perception. You may think you’re moving slowly when, say, putting down your gun, but you might be moving very quickly indeed. Your best bet when the cops arrive: freeze. Don’t do ANYTHING. And then move very, very, very slowly.

I’m known in these parts for being extremely distrustful if not antagonistic towards police. True story. But in all of my encounters with the constabulary – yes, I got a speeding ticket the other day – I am as polite, deferential and slow-moving as possible. Who cares if cops appreciate my attitude and behavior. I just don’t want to be that guy: the guy the police spokesman’s talking to the press about. [h/t webpawn]

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213 COMMENTS

  1. Be respectful, and treat others as you would like to be treated. Makes sense. The ability to be able to view a situation from more than just your own viewpoint is valuable one, indeed.

  2. I have a better idea , LETS ban and disarm ALL and mean ALL POLICE NOW, I’ll take care of me….that’s why we were given 2A also ,,, I say BAN all police NOW! and give us a real tax break too…

    • First of all, you won’t get a tax break. Save a trillion dollars a year by doing away with cops and they’ll just spend the money elsewhere. You know, like the savings we were supposed to see after they made seatbelts and motorcycle helmets mandatory.

      Secondly, flag down one of those nice people in the white outfits and tell them your meds aren’t working.

      • I am med free/drug free and is there such a thing as good cops anymore?????????? and we don’t need a POLICE STATE to be safe … give up your freedoms and be not free or safe …….another term for SLAVE ..

      • Spoken like a true cop, we actually could do better than the current system, way better. If I received actual and customer service from a company like I do from most jurisdictions, cops would be out of business as someone would move in with a better model and take over. To convince me to pay them they (cops) would need to massively improve their customer service skills (99% of contacts are with law abiding citizens) and they would have to improve their record (60% of homicides and 80% of property crimes go unsolved). Cops, as a whole nation wide are so poor at their job that offering law enforcement would have failed long ago as a business model. No private company could have both a terrible resolve rate and shitty customer service and stay in business. It’s something only government could even conceive of; a product that has a terrible track record of accomplishing its purpose, is rude and may kill you unjustly, yet it’s still around.

        I’m actually a supporter of law enforcement personnel, though I support better alignment and more training. I will say this though; if you assault me with a deadly effort I will respond in kind, regardless of how you are dressed. I wear a suit most working days, you wear a uniform and neither entitles us to anything. I also tend to wear armor and I tend to be about a million times a better shot that the average cop. When some ignorant, ought not to be a garbage man, useless and oppressive cop finally tries this shit with someone like me he’s going to die and he will deserve it, even if I go to prison and he goes to a state funeral. Being sworn as an officer gives immediate opportunity for respect from me and almost every one else, still. However that is on the decline, there are so many thugs and criminals about in uniform that one has to take them as they come. It’s every citizens right to resist unlawful coercion, and some cops are going to die because of this. The fact is, where there was actual unlawful coercion this is a good thing, and I support it. I could site a bad cop for every bad citizen you sight on a one to one basis for years to come. Look inward and figure out how to make all cops altruistic enforcers of the law. This would legitimately keep more of them alive. As it is there are quite a few (though still a tiny minority) that some citizen ought to take out.

        On a personal note, I’ve seen cops featured on COPS that I would have to debate surrendering to. Their behavior is so suspect that I’d tend to run or resist and me an upstanding citizen and CCW permit holder. I don’t think the larger society would tolerate the behavior of big city cops, in fact when they transfer to smaller departments they are a liability.

        I expect police to be polite and to be my servants right up to the point where they have to deal with me as a criminal. Anything less is unacceptable and will be met with all means of resistance. That badge isn’t worth what it used to mean, and these days too often means ‘I’m a misfit loser who can’t get a job doing anything else’. I do not believe that any government employee local state or federal has any right to join a union and I don’t believe that the conduct of police should be any thing but open to the public.

        Police exist because we welcome and tolerate them, officers ought to remember that. Treating everyone as a suspect will rapidly result in a situation in which we, the people, and police are at odds.

        Finally, while I pay cops to be cops they ought to be able to figure out the difference between me and the bad guy as well as I can figure out the difference between them and the bad guy in a DGU. Anything less suggests that they lack the training I have (true in the case of 99% of cops) and that they have some superior right to life that lets them shoot when I cannot. Screw that latter, I’d welcome cops shot rather than citizens shot any day. . . we tolerate your like only because your a smidge better than doing your function ourselves, and I’d rather the likes of a police officer shot for over reaching than a citizen shot for exercising their rights any day.

        • It appears that your long and bombastic diatribe was aimed at me, Ardent. If I’m wrong, so be it. But I’m not and have never been a cop.

          As for a better system, yes we need one. But we’re a first world country, simply doing away with all cops is not a way to go.

        • Jeez, get to the point. I’m not gonna read a long diatribe. Reader’s digest version, please.

          • The way I see it now days ,if you have a CCW permit , WE should be given all legal police powers, and return our current system to REMOVE NOW all paid police and have a jail and jailer system that we the people take the bad guy to, and JAIL is only for holding , crimes need to be paid for , you rob someone of $1000. you work your ass off to pay back that $1000. that is the time you serve only … no more of the jail time of stake and TV… the old system worked for hundreds of years,, OUR current system started in the state of PA. put a guy in jail and make him think about the bad he did and he would repent …our current law enforcement is not working and never has… why has Amerika have everything up side down ….and no one has a CLUE what to do … thank your commie education and commie news media ,,,YES we have answers to our problems ,, but you never hear them thanks to the Communist running Amerika..

        • Police exist because we welcome and tolerate them, officers ought to remember that.

          No, civilians exist because the police tolerate them.

        • “99% of contacts are with law abiding citizens”

          BS. Last time I checked, cops aren’t pulling folks to wish them a happy day.

    • To Last Marine Out:

      The interesting thing about the Internet is you can run the gamut of responses to a post. From well thought out to just plain silly. But here with your post I may have run in to the most stupid response that I have seen in a long period of time.

      I can argue. I can’t lower my brain to the point where I think you could even comprehend what I would be trying to say.

      As some have said “What is the color of the sun on your planet?”.

      ps I also doubt the moniker Last Marine Out

    • The majority of cops are good cops. They do their best to enforce the law as they understand it. The problem is WAY too many laws that shouldn’t be. Fire the government, and let people hire all the police they want to, on their own dime.

      • If they ever giver “professional courtesy” then they are not good cops. If they ever arrest someone on a firearms offense then they are not good cops. If they ever lie to a citizen, then they are not good cops. If they support the blue wall of silence, then they are not good cops. Any good cops would spend all of their time arresting the bad cops, so there are no good cops.

        Disarm cops for a safer America.

      • I agree Rich, even if my above doesn’t sound like it. (I just re read it on the big screen and it’s a little harsh.) Most cops are just trying to do the right thing and without doubt we ask them to do all sorts of things that are problematic (Point in fact; my personal belief in the meaning of the BoR would make me a terrible cop but a good oath keeper).

        JWM: have to reply way down here because we’re out of replies above. My diatribe wasn’t addressed at you but rather at cops and I suppose society. For both you and Rich, consider this;

        Cops and soldiers have to handle rough people and it’s not a damn soccer team- Everyone shouldn’t get to play. No one who is going to shoot first and ask questions later has any business being a cop. Cops are a necessary evil and most are decent folks, I support them. However a standing police force is an evil to liberty and I’m wary of it at best. The very idea that some will over step and go unpunished is horrifying and I’m all for holding cops to a higher (instead of the current lower) standard than others are held to. More training and more power come with more responsibility. If that results in more cops letting people/situations go rather than plowing ahead full steam where they ought not of, then that’s a good thing. I cherish the rights enshrined in the BoR more than life itself. If hesitation on the part of police means they will never infringe on these but might not be there to ‘rescue’ me when I need it then so be it, I’ll take my chances.

        In that long diatribe above I failed to mention that without cops and prosecutors, thieves and violent criminals wouldn’t last long, they would mostly have been killed off long ago by armed citizens. Not only does the current situation endanger citizens and liberty, but it protects criminals.

        • so can you provide any evidence to support your assertion that without cops and prosecutors, law abiding citizens would kill of all the thugs and criminals?

          because history is replete examples of just the opposite: lawless, anarchic states ruled by petty warlords in which “justice” depends on how much power your family and tribe possess.

    • yeah, because lawlessness, anarchy, lack of effective courts and no police work so well in Waziristan and Somalia.

  3. When I get pulled over(rare, but not unheard of) I shut the car off, roll down my window and put both hands on the steering wheel and keep them there until told otherwise. The side of the road isn’t the place to fight a cop. That’s the lawyers job.

    • So that’s why there is a lawyer in the trunk of my car…to fight cops on the side of the road.

      I thought he was there to chock my tire when I get a flat.

    • Both wise and an indication of how lightly the chains rest upon you. I do the same thing, but it shame me every time. We’re citizens, proud and free and the police serve us, whatever their risk.

      • “and the police serve us”
        No, they don’t. The Police Forces all serve the State. They may, coincidentally, provide a service to you, but only because your interests match the interests of the State in that instant. Woe betide you when your interests and the State’s interests are in conflict. They call them Police Forces for a reason

        • An extremely cogent and well articulated point. The police are, indeed, the enforcers of the state. They do it’s bidding, not the citizenry’s . The important question here, though, is who does THEIR bidding? The police have become the untouchable and unpunishable fascistic cretins they are because they have a very powerful, well connected and well financed UNION. A union that keeps an army of legal talent sitting on go, ready to relate to a gullible jury just why officer friendly had to tase your granny into a coma, and then fill her head with a pound and a half of lead while she lay on the pavement quivering like a mass of lukewarm, blood soaked jello.
          The “protect and serve” “peace officer” is a thing of the past, it went out with shark skin suits, tail fins, silver dollars and anonymity. What we have today are soldiers of a standing army in the midst of the people, an army that is being co opted and militarized at a rapid rate by our very own uncle sam, using our tax dollars, no less. This is a situation that grows more intense and dangerous with each passing day, and if we, the people don’t figure out a solution pretty damn ricky tic, what passes for freedom right now will become nothing more than a fading memory.

        • I didn’t mean that the way I think you took it MacBeth51. I was stating it the way it should be, that the police serve us, I didn’t mean that was the actual reality of things. You’re right, police exist to serve the state and serve us only when our ends match those of the state. This is not how it should be but too often how it is. If only the ends of the state accurately matched the ends of the citizens who ought by right to be the state then this would be an acceptable condition.

          I’m not a cop hater per se, generally I think of police as useful and well meaning and I generally welcome their presence and consider them a benefit to me and society as a whole. Then again, I find them a little fearsome because they may act violently, with the belief that they are within their rights, when I may not. Too often the courts back them up in this and so one has to consider whether winning a just fight against an officer is worth the legal fall out or if submitting to having ones rights and person violated isn’t the better way to go.

          Anyone but a police officer who arrested my travel, questioned me in a manner not conducive to polite conversation, attempted to categorize the objects in my possession and insisted on disarming me while they were themselves armed would be met with resistance up to lethal force if necessary. Police are truly a thing apart but it was not always this way. It used to be that a citizen would regard an officer who stopped their travel, questioned them and searched them as a low thing to be dealt with much as one used to deal with a thief going into their pockets; evade them, beat them or shoot them.

          I don’t advocate shooting police, but I do advocate a return to the position that the citizen is generally inviolate in his travels, person and possessions and that the police had ought to have a very, very good, articulable and compelling reason for arresting the travel of, questioning and searching a citizen. Better that nosey cops go to jail and drug dealers walk free than the contents of a citizens pockets be open for inspection by the police. One is a necessary evil while the other constitutes tyranny. Anyone who can’t decide which is which doesn’t deserve or belong in a free society.

          It’s the basic question of security versus liberty and if you choose the former over the latter you’re already lost. As it is the police abuse the latter in favor of the former to a degree that would have the founders up in arms, literally.

          I sometimes imagine the founding fathers, resurrected, taught to use Google and turned loose for a few hours. I can only reach one conclusion, whomever’s home they were in they would smack their host repeatedly, call them a sissy and tell them to prepare their rifle and follow them to the next house where they would repeat the same and the long walk ends in Washington where they would put us to violent revolution.

          Is the situation so intolerable? I think it very nearly is. I don’t advocate violent revolution while the ballot box and the jury box are open to us, but it’s long past time these were used to more effect in the cause of liberty, for we are surely oppressed.

      • Just point in fact… Chimpanzees are APES, not monkeys. Baboons are apes also, as a high conversation with my daughter’s friend once established.

        He looked at me as if I were a meddling idiot. Apes and monkeys are very different creatures.

    • When I get pulled over, I always say, ” Does Marcellus Wallace look like a bitch to you!?”

    • As I sat in my late model truck with my hands on the wheel, engine off, the CHP officer came up to the passenger side of the car and then looking disgusted and exasperated -tapped on the window. At that point I leaned over to manually crank the passenger side window down. He immediately laughed saying ‘Holy crap, crank windows!’ “Yeah, I figured if I went diving sideways to crank it down as you walked up, it would go kind of badly for us.” He let me go with a warning.

  4. Cops are skeptical, some are dicks. But is not a bad suggestion to assume, most cops are trigger happy. Move slowly don’t give them a reason and things will be ok. Write down his info and follow the law. Deal with it later in court. UNLESS of course he is at your house telling you to give up your firearms then…well as DR. King once suggested. There are times for civil disobedience to remind the community what you are, Rosa Parks reminded us of such.

    • A 90-year old granny is slow, but I shudder to think of what might happen if one got out of her car at a cop stop, with a walker in her feeble little hands!

      The cop will ventilate her and claim he thought she was getting out with an M-60 on a tripod!

    • I agree. As a LEO *ducks*, I and most of my co workers have been in situations where we could have shot and killed someone and technically been legally justified, but did the right thing and gave the situation that extra quarter of a second to assess it and let it play out. There are plenty of dirtbag cops, but I can honestly say that the department I work for has a ruthless internal affairs office (as it should) that crucifies officers for misconduct. If an officer is being a prick to you, by all means record him and turn him in. If he’s treating you with respect, as I do with everyone that doesn’t give me a reason not to, just move slowly and be courteous back.

      • And I appreciate this greatly. I have dealt with decent American cops in the past, and it’s obvious that some still exist.

        I believe the main issue is inculcating recent Iraq/Afghanistan vets to be street officers. How unlikely is it that they do NOT see the American public as “enemy combatants”?

        This is BAD policy, and it’s led to the morass we now find ourselves in. Hiring officers who ALREADY have PTSD is terrible policy; they will only get worse on the streets of America!

        • William, my first thought in response to your BS about returning vets would have garnered a FLAME DELETED. So I will tone it down a little: why don’t you stfu about stuff you appear to know nothing about. War vets have served honorably after all of our wars, and the vast majority of them are responsible and can be counted on when the shtf.

          • FINALLY! I heard from the ULTIMATE EXPERT! As for STFU… I will if you will.

            You do NOT control my right of free speech, and you’re on the wrong side of history. Where would you care to take this to? I stand by my statement.

            I don’t see as where you have refuted a word I wrote. When you do that, I can address that.

            • how about you back up you inane assertions that OIF and OEF vets are creating a trigger happy police force. got any stats to back that up? if not, then stfu.

              and then back up your assertion that I am in the wrong side of history. and then stfu again.

              • “Were you a combat vet?”
                “Are you permanently stressed out?”
                “Do I look like an enemy combatant”?
                “You do realize I’m an American citizen, right?”
                “Why are you pointing a gun at me, when I’m only trying to cross the street?”
                “Why the f*uck did you shoot my little dog?”

                I admit the figures of returning vets who become stressed-out cops are scarce, but that doesn’t men it’s not true. WTF do you think they accept jobs as when they come home, VETERINARIANS?

                Police forces throughout the nation have been conditioned to accept “veterans”, regardless of their psychological circumstances… and they do.

                How about you refute THAT?

              • yeah, I already knew you didn’t have any stats to support your stupid and phony assertion that OEF and OIF vets were creating a trigger happy police force.

                that’s why I said you should stfu.

                so now that you have admitted that you don’t actually have any data to support your asinine assertions, STFU!

              • So your position is that combat vets are NOT being hired as police officers? AT ALL?

                Who needs to STFU here? You are clearly a combative ignoramus.

              • How about you let ME state my position and you don’t make up straw man arguments. I never said vets were not being hired as cops.

                Reading comprehension – try it some time.

              • Then stop playing games and tell us what you WERE saying! And stop acting like a spoiled child.

              • William, I said you have no evidence that war vets being hired as LEOs are creating a trigger happy police force. Because there is no evidence supporting that assertion. Speaking of acting like a spoiled child, you take the cake on this one with your prejudging an entire class of people without any evidence.

                I never disputed that law enforcement agencies are hiring vets. personally, I disagree with veterans preference because for the same reasons I agree with any type of affirmative action, although I would benefit from veterans preference. If a candidate’s past jobs help prepare them for a future job, then they don’t need an additional preference because they have experience. But that is a separate and distinct issue.

              • William, are you a troll? you do realize that article contains no statistics that show that war vets are making police forces more dangerous, only hypotheticals and possibilities, don’t you?

                police cadets usually go through PTSD screening.

                so stfu, again, and stop bashing combat vets.

              • I’m going to put this so even you can understand it: NOWHERE did I “trash” combat vets. Is that why you’re taking it so personally?

              • you wrote (paraphrasing) that the main problem is police forces hiring vets, who are dangerous because they have PTSD and see the world differently.

                That’s bullshit. The main problem is that (some) police forces are hiring (some) assholes and not enforcing strict standards. There is no evidence that vets are involved in assholery any more than non-vets; IMO they are LESS likely to be assholes.

              • oh, I’m cut off. Does that mean you will STFU with your unsubstantiated assertions about how vets are responsible for making police agencies violent?

        • Hey William, I didn’t catch the part in that article about the shooting in NC that said the cop was a combat vet. Or the part in the article where a cop threatened to kick someone’s door in where the cop was a combat vet. I also haven’t seen any stats where cops who are combat vets are more likely to engage in unjustified violence than other cops.

          So until you can show those stats, STFU about vets.

  5. Just like a guard dog that bites a person without justification should be put down; A cop, a sheep dog; that shoots an innocent citizen; even under these circumstances, should be ……..; wait for it; ………..be fired from his job, if not go to jail for involuntary manslaughter.

    Because in the end; they should have enough discernment; wait for even that split second, before filling that citizen with hot lead; even at the risk of their own lives before they kill a citizen they have sworn to protect.

    “With great power, comes great responsibility.” And when they F-up, the price they pay should be equally great.

    • Every cop, like every citizen should fire only when there is a legitimate fear of serious bodily harm or death. It is the law for both ostensibly but enforced only for non-cops. Given that cops can kill you without the same stringent legal cause as anyone else, I’d argue that cops are more dangerous than anyone else and ought not to meet the same rules for lethal force that everyone else does. That is, since a cop is quicker to kill you, the rules regarding killing them ought to be relaxed.

      A good alternative would be to actually hold cops accountable for bad shoots, but that does not and is not going to happen. Be aware, a sworn officer can (and knows he can) shoot you to death for a variety of reasons it would be illegal for you to shoot someone over. Also, it’s illegal to shoot him even in the event he is robbing you, denying you of your civil rights or murdering you, at least according to most juries most of the time. Cops are a necessary evil, however it’s not necessary that they be as evil as they are.

  6. In the last sentence, “I just want…” I suspect you left out the word “don’t”.

  7. BAN ALL CANES!

    Stay in the car/truck and wait for the cop. Hands on the steering wheel. Simple really.

    • I started to write they’ll get those canes when they pry them from their cold dead fingers; but then I got thinking, isn’t that pretty much how they already usually get someone’s cane without them even being illegal?

    • Defer to all authority. . . no matter how petty or ridiculous. Banning cops would make more sense, and I’m frankly not sure it’s not a better idea.

      • How is the guy supposed to believe the cop is really a cop? Lots of fakes these days. From now on, nobody should ever pull over for any “cop”. If they want to talk to you, let them bust your door in at 3 am without a warrant like the rest of the cops do it.

        Cops get paid to take calculated risks, I don’t.

        • When one is adequately (not by most standards but by realistic ones to go about enforcing the law) trained to carry a firearm one is able to delay shooting someone until it is apparent whether they have a cane or a rifle.

          I know I can draw and fire so fast at conversational ranges that I’m at no threat if you’re attempting to retrieve and use a rifle from your truck: it will never come to bear on me fast enough to use it as a weapon before I draw and fire effectively.

          Thus the only possible explanations are that this officer is poorly trained (a civil suit) or that he committed murder (a criminal suit). I lean on the latter and whish that more police officers who behave in such a way faced prison. There is intelligence and there is idiocy, and too often police rely on the latter at the expense of the former and get away with it.

        • +1

          The police are unnecessary. We need detectives who can investigate crimes and find who the criminal is. Cops are so far beyond the spectrum of what is good for a free people, and too many people don’t even realize it any more. They exist to collect revenue and to control the people. And not only do they generate revenue from speeding tickets, they also can seize money and property just by declaring them to be used in drug trafficking, due process be damned.

          Cops are supposed to be respected because they take risks. I don’t see that they take many risks when they shoot dogs at will and a 78 year old man with a cane.

          They are no longer worthy of respect in our society and have become an occupying force.

      • Suppose you see a guy reaching for something that might be a rifle (IT’S LONG!), but ends up being a cane, and shoot him (assuming you’re not a cop). Should you get away with it, too? If not, then why should the cop be any different?

        Yes, there’s always a danger that someone pulls out a weapon and starts shooting. The chances of that actually happening are extremely small for all of us, and only marginally higher for cops. Most of the time, the cane is just a cane. Since the cop’s duty is to serve and protect, it is not unreasonable to expect him to defer judgment until he is able to clearly identify whether it is a threat or not, even if that potentially puts him at greater risk – for one thing, because it’s the standard to which all of the rest of us are held to, and for another, because we pay cops for higher risk, not for shooting people with canes.

        • So YOU’RE willing to wait until he pulls a possible weapon from the BED of the truck and take a few shots to make your call? NOT ME. Someone who needs a cane needs it to walk or steady themselves. They would need it to help them stand or steady themselves to get out of the truck/car as well. I’m NOT a cop lover per se but come on man, you can’t blame the cop.

        • If you treat every person taking something out of the trunk of their car as a “potential weapon”, you’re paranoid. If you’re seriously suggesting that drawing your weapon, much less firing it, is a viable course of action, then you’re dangerously mentally unstable.

      • How is the cop supposed to know it was a CANE he was going for?

        Maybe by using his eyes instead of his fvcking gun.

        • You’ve called it again Ralph. You or I would be off to prison for this shoot and this cop ought to be too, draw? Sure, point, sure, shoot until you are sure that it’s a weapon and you’re a murderer just like this cop is. Send him off to prison where he belongs and let it be a lesson to other would be murderers; think first, shoot second.

        • @JWM in response to your saying the cop isn’t a murderer. Well, he’s currently alive, but suppose that his injuries and the treatment required to forestall his death exact a toll on his body that in the end cause him to die a day or two earlier than he would’ve otherwise died had he not been shot. Couldn’t we at least then say that the cop shortened his life? Of course we could. And what is murder? Murder is the man caused shortening of another human’s life, is it not? Now, we can never prove beyond a reasonable doubt whether or not the injuries caused by this shooting contributed to a minor shortening of this man’s life, but I think we should at least indulge the idea that this shooting, if not IMMEDIATELY fatal will at least be a contributing factor in some small way to a hastening of this man’s death, and accordingly we should call this cop a murderer. Anyone else got a problem with that?

      • not too difficult, guy gets out of truck, he is old and moves slowly, you tell him to stop, he maybe deaf, yr weapon is to hand and you evaluate the risk, he moves slowly and bends into the back of his truck, you consider whether he is putting his hands on the truck or reaching for a weapon, you draw weapon and aim, (or just shoot him 3 times) tell him to stop as you still have plenty of time to shoot/not shoot until he raises weapon turns and aquires you as a target, that is unless you are a half trained idiot with poor rules of engagement, who cannot control his fear. Where you a soldier in the British Army in NI or Afghanistan you would appear before a Courts Martial for that, dismissed the service and serve time in a Civvy prison and deservedly so. Laughably if you were a serving UK Police officer it would be a Health and Safety Offence and you would still be in a job.

      • It is called identifying your target. Something very few cops do. There is no excuse for any mistaken shoot, none. If the government thugs don’t want the risk, then we need to cut pay, reduce benefits and make sure they don’t touch one dime of pension money until they hit 67.

      • I’m sort of with you. . . if a non cop did that it would be murder, a cop did it and cops are citizens, it ought to be murder. Arguably it’s not premeditated and doesn’t have special circumstances so no death penalty. I’d say it’s manslaughter though and dish out the 5-25 it deserves. As it is we’ll be lucky if this officer isn’t out to do it again next week.

        • Does anyone know if this case went before a grand jury and they failed to indict, or was it decided by a judge? What is the procedure in these cases? I just can’t see a grand jury not indicting this trigger happy cop for, at the very least, manslaughter……..

  8. Why did he have his walking cane in the pick-up bed. When I use one, I want it right away, so I keep it up front. It’s too bad this had to happen. Both are somewhat at fault. Was this in daylight, or night? If it was night, I can see why the cop would be apprehensive about the guy pulling something like that out. In any case the guy should have spoken up and I’m getting my cane!

    • I agree, but I’m left wondering: How did the guy make it back to the truck bed in one piece?

        • Rarely if ever they are just show up after the fact. Stand around and gawk and waste our hard earned tax money when they Dont have their boots on our necks trying to take away our rights , other than that there might be a couple good one’s

  9. How to respond when a police car pulls up behind you with their lights on:
    (0) Pull over as soon as possible to the safest location possible, as far off the traffic lane as possible, and turn off your car.
    (1) If it is night time, turn on your interior lights.
    (2) Put both of your hands high up on the steering wheel.
    (3) Sit still, stay in your vehicle, and wait for officer friendly.
    (4) Follow officer friendly’s instructions.
    (5) State what you are going to do before you do it.
    (6) Exercise your right to remain silent and do not volunteer anything other than pleasantries.

    Important notes:
    (a) Do NOT reach for anything or rummage for stuff in your car before officer friendly walks up to your window.
    (b) Move normally to comply with officer friendly’s requests. If you move suddenly, officer friendly might think you are trying to attack him/her. If you move too slowly, officer friendly will think that you are mentally preparing to attack him/her
    (c) Speak in a normal conversational voice.

    • Jeebus, next time I get pulled over the first words out of my mouth will be “Officer Friendly” and it’s all gonna be your fault.

    • And over thirty five years of doing exactly that my ratio of written tickets to warnings has been about 1:4. Pays to not be a dick.

    • I always pull out my license and registration and THEN put my hands on the wheel, papers in hand. If I get the registration out of the glove box with the LEO watching, three or four pistols might fall out. That’ wouldn’t be good.

      • I’m so careful that I’ve actually had my attorney and a LEO friend critique my traffic stop behavior (partially because I’m inclined to give effective return fire if someone fires on me for any reason). Hands on wheel, no movement without first announcing, all that. Did I mention that if you fire on me I’ll return it? I’ve spent more hours in formal training on CQB handgun than most police officers have spent on training for all things put together. Right, wrong or indifferent most of them would lose an engagement with me even if they initiated the shooting. I might go to prison, but I think cops ought to think more about guys like me. . . I can outshoot you standing up, laying down, jumping on one leg, hanging upside down, supine, prone or any other way you’d like to try it and a not 1/100th of cops could prevail in a shooting trial with me one on one. I’ve even spent dozens of hours and thousands of rounds learning to shoot the person standing outside or behind my drivers window. If that sounds scary, quit your damn job . . .or acknowledge that 99%+ of the people you meet are not like me. Even I am friendly and agreeable, even while armed. The problem is going to come when you want to disarm me. Unless you’re willing to die for it, kill me, or roll the dice don’t ever do it. You might intimidate the majority of people you encounter but with someone like me your training is enough to help me understand how you will react and not enough to deal with me if I resist at any level. You’re always predictable and I’ve had years of using high level training to contemplate how best to use it against you. I am a law abiding citizen with no warrants wants or convictions and I’m uncommon fare for cops, but listen cops, I’m almost certainly better with tactics and a gun than you, likely far better. It’s not an insult, it’s a wake up. My training budget used to exceed your salary and benefits times 10. I’m getting rusty but I can still clear leather and run slide lock with my 1911 on a half man target 100% accuracy in under 2 seconds and I can still shoot well over my shoulder and in many odd situations. I almost can’t miss a head shot at conversational distances (read your car to mine in a stop). I look for opportunities to help Leos, I even have a concealed carry badge to slow you down shooting me at active crime scenes but if you were in my county you’d recognize me as a good guy anyway. It’s a two way thing, give respect get respect but go tyrannical and it is only a matter of time before you meet someone who will kill you, and they have all the advantages and so they will prevail. If they end up in prison latter, it’s hardly going to matter to you or yours. Be nice whenever you can, we aren’t that far from fighting in the streets. I know you want me on your side and I know you cant win if you’re against mine.

        • Problem with that is the popo are like hyenas. Smell of blood (sound of gunfire) attracts a large pack. And they don’t leave until the donuts run out.

        • What the fcuk did you just fcuking say about me, you little b1tch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fcuk out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fcuking words. You think you can get away with saying that sh1t to me over the Internet? Think again, fcuker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fcuking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little sh1t. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fcuking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will sh1t fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fcuking dead, kiddo.

        • uh, wow. I don’t intend for this to sound like a flame, but Ardent that post of yours was 1 – narcissistic and fantastical, and 2 – a potential liability if you ever end up in court over a shooting, unless you’ve hidden your electronic tracks very, very well.

    • While I agree I feel enslaved. ‘Officer Friendly’ ought only to commit violence on me when a ‘reasonable person’ would, that is when I offer him violence. Think not in terms of Joe citizen and instead of a real citizen with real rights: that cop cant hurt you for because you dig in the glove box or anything else that isn’t an obvious threat anymore than anyone else can. Hard job? You bet, but don’t do it unless you’re willing to give everyone both the benefit of the doubt and risk you life routinely.
      Let’s change it up, you have high level handgun skills and you’re seriously breaking the law. . . you pull over and officer approaches. . . if you can’t kill/incapacitate him you don’t have high level skills with a handgun, period. If you or I had shot his man trying to get his cane it would be charged (appropriately) as murder. If this citizen (cop) doesn’t go for murder the system is broken. Being a cop means putting ones self into danger that others would avoid. It does not mean getting to kill people because they fail to comply.

      Turn in back around; If I had to, as a citizen, deal with this guy and I’m yelling at him to stop goofing around in his truck and he comes up with a gun shaped object am I going to kill him? Not if I know what is good for me. Digging in his truck is legal, picking up his cane is legal and shooting him while he holds nothing more lethal than his cane is illegal. If I’m held to this standard as an ‘ill’ trained citizen then the cop has no excuse for killing this man other than murder/manslaughter and he ought to go down for it.

      If you want to be a cop, accept that you will have to put yourself into high risk situations in which you must exercise discretion even when it is a risk you your safety. Don’t like it? Quit! Act outside the law and you deserve more punishment than the average citizen. Manslaughter ought to be upgraded to murder when a cop does it every time. They ought to know better, and it’s often up to then whether to escalate. Imagine how much better our 4th amendment rights would be if only cops were even a little afraid of arrest and imprisonment. I can almost live with 4th amendment violations being fixed at the trial level but nothing fixes death and cops ought to face the same standard and penalty as anyone else when they shoot someone unlawfully. . . and in this case the officer is almost certainly guilty of manslaughter, let him serve 5-25 and be forever a felon and denied a gun, just like anyone else would who shot this citizen under these circumstances.

      There is an argument that some portion of the LEOs in the nation need burned down. Before that concept grows they ought to support prosecutions of their own who have gone wrong, like this one. If you or I had shot this man looking for his cane we’d go to prison for murder or manslaughter and this cop ought to do the same. I see current and former LEOs trying to justify it and they can’t without surrendering their own justification for being. Screw them! Put this idiot in prison the same as any other thug or idiot who did the same.

    • You forgot one (as highlighted in the article), NC is a duty to inform state:
      (3.a) If you are in NC and a CCH licensee holder, it’s recommended to keep both hands on the wheel and your first words should be something like “Officer, I have a valid license to carry concealed, and I’m currently armed, how would you like to proceed?”

      I’m not trying to be the cops bitch, but I don’t want to get shot either, the officer is going to run my license at some point at which time he will know that I’m a CCH licensee and if I haven’t told him ahead of time(per statute), he is going to be a lot less cordial when he returns. I also avoid words like “Gun” that some cops are hypersensitive too, especial a backup officer positioned on your passenger rear corner panel at night, in the rain.

  10. Police, the only job where you carry a weapon because your fellow citizen may try to kill you for doing your job.

    • Yeah, a million cops in this country and fifty of them a year die on the job by being shot.

      You have worse odds delivering pizza, and you do more good too.

      • I’m a law abiding citizen generally and I’m more afraid of the police than I am of criminals. I carry a gun to deal with the latter but to deal with the former one has only submission or conviction. In gaining ability and reliance on myself for crime prevention I have less use of cops… I’m almost to the point where I think armed citizens are more economical, effective and just. It’s harder every day to justify police in terms of abuse, salary and effectiveness. Without them I’d just shoot thieves and such routinely and their numbers would shrink accordingly. I’m to the point where I feel cops only harass innocent people and protect criminals.

        It was said succinctly once: F**k the police.

        • “motor vehicle accident.”

          There is no such thing as a motor vehicle accident. All crashes not caused by equipment failure are caused by negligent driving.

  11. True story.

    I live in a duty to inform state. I’ve had to inform officers on two occasions that I was armed. Each encounter was very professional and I actually got out of a speeding ticket in the second. The officer seemed excited I followed the law and actually told him I was armed and let me me off with a warning.

    • You can get bonus points for informing in Texas, too, usually. Technically, there is a duty to inform if you’re licensed to carry. However, Several years ago, the legislature removed the criminal penalty for failing to inform. Normally, police do love them some loopholes in the law, but for some reason, they don’t care for this one so much. Curiously, that non-penalty duty to inform only applies to licensed carriers. If you’re just carrying inside your vehicle unlicensed, as is perfectly legal to do, there’s no duty to inform whatsoever, with or without penalty.

      So if you go ahead and inform, casually mentioning that it’s just on general principle of no misunderstandings, not because there’s any criminal penalty for not doing so, then you usually get a “thanks” out of the officer and a verbal warning not to do again whatever got you pulled over in the first place.

      • I was pulled over once(for informing the police that the speed limit was too low) & I was treated like one of the guys when they saw my CC permit. No ticket.

  12. I’ll say it.
    Bad shoot. Period.
    Yes, I know. I wasn’t there.
    I was on a few thousand other traffic stops though.
    Never shot anybody. Had plenty of folks jump out of their cars, ranting, flailing their arms and cussing blue streaks.

    • Yeah, what happened? I listened to 45 minutes of the most godawful pantywaist moaning “all the world should be one big Starbucks” drivel waiting for RF, but noooo, no RF. It was hideous. And the Rabbi? I absolutely cannot believe that little moaner ever read the Torah, let alone relevant scrolls of the Talmud. If they’d been like him in the old days there would never have been a diaspora. No Jews would have lived long enough to diasp. Er, migrate.

      How the hell did a guy like Elliot produce an SF Q Course graduate? Must have been adopted?

    • Yeah post deleted,

      I tuned in anyway to the giant whine fest that the Rabbi and host had. Hats off to the host and the Rabbi for perpetuating the stereotype of they whiny Jew btw.

      They invited RF to be back, but I don’t think it would be wise. The whole thing was emotion and not a lot of fact. If RF does go back on, he’s going to have to play the Jewish card right up front since it might actually be the only way he gets a word in.

  13. It’s the cops job to get it right when a guy reaches for a cane and not a gun. It’s his job to asses the situation, the body language and get it right so good people don’t die.

    Imagine if cop logic was applied to concealed carry permit holders… would that mean anyone that reached for a wallet, in a purse or into their jacket in my presence is a threat and I should gun first and ask questions later?

    Up goes the blue wall on this one. At least the guys survived.

    • I will bet anyone with a cane keeps it near their person. NOT in the back of a freaking truck. Come on man, get real. If I’m that cop, I may act the same way. It makes nearly ZERO sense that a cane would be in the BED of a truck.

      • So shoot the bastard for keeping a cane in the back? You know, you’d make the perfect cop.

      • How many people carry uncased long guns in the bed of the truck?

        A lot of this hinges on how he was holding it and what his overall demeanor with it was. It is very likely that NOTHING about the situation said “gun.”

        But it is also POSSIBLE that the officer’s mistake was one any one of us would have made.

        If he had dash cam going, it should tell the tale.

      • Putting all the other issues aside, here’s what I don’t get: A cop has a bright little flashlight. She gets to pull her gun if she has doubts, and without a brandishing or assault charge. It really isn’t difficult to see things at five or ten feet, nor is it difficult to get the first accurate shot off if indeed the person is grabbing a gun. Why all the “I thought it was a gun” shoots? In other words, my local PD never does that. So why is happening all over the damned country? No good reason. Rational rebuttals welcome.

        • Why? Because all the training for cops now days is made to accommodate the most stupid, most lame, most physically incapable woman that manages to get placed onto the force by lawsuits from the ACLU or some lawsuit happy “civil rights” organization.

          To help keep those incompetents alive, the official rules of engagement are “Shoot whenever you feel that your precious snowflake life detects even the slightest hint of danger”. And of coarse, the rise of the police unions ensures they are not penalized.

          • And how many of these female cops are queers, and can not handle a gun anyhow.? it’s BIG BIG pay to hang out at the donut shops and get way over weight and way out of shape …and the tax payer keeps paying more for less.. what’s right with this picture..???. want to be a paid killer see Blackwater, no questions asked to kill all you want overseas … we do not need cops , the founders gave up 2A………

      • If you’re a cop, you night get away with it, as a concealed carrier you’d go to prison, which is where you’d belong either way. Reasonable person, imminent threat and all that. I might be something you want to study.

        • Dratted auto correct. How about ‘might’ and ‘it’ rather than night and I. . .

          I think I ended up leaving the above reply to the wrong comment anyway. Note to self, never go mobile, you’ll just screw it up.

  14. Why does the gentleman keep his cane in the bed of his truck? Who knows. That’s where he keeps it. And perhaps where he is used to keeping it, and thinks nothing of reaching in and getting it out of there each time he uses it. And I’m guessing he’s also not used to having to treat a police officer as a vicious wild animal that will try to kill him if he makes an error in judgement. I don’t agree with the shoot first and ascertain what’s really going on afterwards mentality too many of our police have.

    And before someone says “You don’t know what it’s like to be in that situation and…”. Yes, I do. Many times over. And if I had acted like this officer I would have ended the lives of many people who didn’t deserve to die.

    Am I “cop bashing”? I don’t think so. Some will. But I am not saying ALL officers are this way. Just that too many are. And it needs to stop. After all, if it saves just one life…

    • My question is why in the hell would you have a rifle in the bed of you truck? This “cop” was an idiot and a coward if your that “afraid for my life” maybe this idiot should find a different line of work you can bet if it was a you or i we would be carted off to jail not getting a taxpayer paid vacation . They need to do away with paid leave for police involved in incidents period. i don’t get paid when i screw up
      I doubt if we will ever know what really happened the police are so good at lying for each other Gang call it snitch but police it is SOP for a lot of them and the worse part is the so called good cops will sit by and do nothing. when is the last time you saw a cop critical of anything another cap has done? they can do no wrong!
      I try to respect LEO but the more you read about them the more there is to dislike. You stand more of a chance getting shot by a cop than a terrorist. to me something is wrong with that picture. We are the ones who need body amor to protect of from our so called Protectors

      • This is what happens when cops train with “react, don’t think” targets of women holding babies, homeless ladies with giant shopping bags… and elderly gentlemen with canes.

        “React, don’t think” results in too many unthinking shootings.

        • speaking of reacting and not thinking, how about telling me which one of those article you linked to above refer to combat vets, because I didn’t see where the bad cops were listed as combat vets.

          And then maybe you should see if there is any data that show that cops who are combat vets are more likely to engage in unjustified violence than other cops.

          Then when you don’t find any, you should stop being a knee-jerk reactionary about vets.