http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKOGfQW_LAk
Gun guys are up in arms about the Manchin-Toomey background check compromise bill. Cruising through YouTube land I found this clip of Second Amendment Foundation jefe Alan Gottlieb explaining the bill’s advantages and calling it a “Godsend.” Gottleib believes that supporting background checks is the moral position. Worryingly, he goes on to highlight people who “can hardly speak English” who buy a firearm at a gun show without a background check. “Goes on every day at every gun show . . . We can’t tolerate that. It’s not a sustainable position. We’re going to lose all our rights if we allow that to go on.” Realpolitik? Not my forte. But it is Alan’s.
Not too bad for liberal media. I would have liked to see part of that on the brilliance of the criminal safe zones, which by the way have failed so our guns are bad, Randy
Can we trust no one?
“We are all incrementalists now”
They won’t be cheering when facing catastrophic money loss through lawsuits. Think of a 50,000 person class action. Then we will hear the crying about how they were just trying to help, Randy
You cannot sue a government entity without its permission.
Yeah, you can’t trust a guy that’s done more for gun rights in this country then just about any other person…please.
than*
You forgot to subtract the things he’s done AGAINST gun rights from the total. It’s a different picture when you do that.
To review: ADD good, SUBTRACT bad…
Connor, that was a well-written piece covering your experience. Sorry to learn about what you went through and have to endure. Obama, and the others like him, couldn’t care less about how many of us get killed as long as he gets the new world order that he wants.
I have to say I agree 100% with what he is saying. The NRA was for background checks before they were against it. He makes many excellent points, particularly about de-fanging Bloomberg on this issue.
Yep. While it’s going to inconvenience me, I definitely agree that there are some clear benefits to requiring a background check (or CCL, etc.) on every transaction. Makes it much harder for guns to accidentally transition to the black market, for one thing.
“Legal” straw man makes purchase. Sells gun illegally to person not legally able to buy gun. Same as happens now.
Unless “background check” comes with “universal transfer database”, how does this slow black market anything?
The only thing universal bc will accomplish is ‘step one’ is complete and obviously ineffective. ‘Step two’ we now must register all guns and all transactions, because bloody shirt du jour.
then let Bloomberg come out with an ad that pushes universal registration, see how that flies.
Did you actually view the video? The bill has protections against a registry.
Think people, universals background checks will be unenforcable without complete registration, as you need to know who has it now to know if a background check was done on the next transfer. Why is this point escaping the pro-gun crowd?
As for accepting this now in hopes of repealing later? What planet do these people live on….
dwb, I do agree that sometimes you fall back, regroup, and attack fresh.
Here’s my quarrel, we’ve been falling back since the NFA in 1934. And GCA in 1968. And FOPA in 1986. When do we start the advance again?
Bloomberg doesn’t have to advertise the steps he, or any other grabber, wants to take – they are the same steps that happen every time a government disarms it’s people.
Yep. And your son is denied the right to inherit the Browning 9mm his grampaw left him, because… well, you know why a dog licks his balls, right?
There IS no “defanging” of Bloomberg while any gun remains in citizen’s hands. That’s a recurring (mis)belief among conservative politicians – that, “If we give them this one thing, they’ll be satisfied and leave us alone”. Wrong! They’re never satisfied.
I’ve never understood the “you need registration for background checks to work” argument. All a background check does is ensure the buyer is not a known criminal.
The scary part of it is dealers having to keep the 4473s for 20 years. That could lead to future backdoor registration. The Manchin-Toomey bill makes it a felony to misuse these records, which is not the case now.
I’m against expanded background checks, but this bill has a lot of advantages to it. Listen to what Gottlieb, one of the fiercest and most successful defenders of the 2A in history, actually says. Then go look at the bill itself. It’s not the sell out everyone thinks it is.
We’ve been there for over a decade at least. Once a dealer retires or gets out of the business the ATF gets all those 4473s. They don’t shred them, or just box them up in an underground document warehouse. They get entered into a computer…
I’m not sure what bill you read, but M-T has so many vagaries, that it’s guaranteed to be used against us in the very near future.
In order to get my handgun permit here in Westchester County, New York, I went through an 18 month, $400+ process involving scads of paperwork, fingerprints, background checks, letters from friends, training classes and so on.
The process is not designed to make you a safer shooter, but instead to make you give up and just not bother. But I didn’t. I care so deeply about my 2A rights that I went through all the BS in order to secure my permit and buy my guns.
A lot easier to be pro-2A when all you have to do is walk into a gunshop and pass a NICS check. Those of us who, for whatever reason (mine is economic and familial) remain in the deep blue states and keep fighting are just as worthy of respect as those of you who live in gun friendly states. Hell, maybe more because we have to do a lot more work and shell out a lot more dough to exercise our rights.
If it was up to me, there’d be no background checks and we’d reset the laws back to where they were before the 1968 Gun Control Act. But it isn’t up to me.
I’ve also written every senator with an NRA rating of B or higher on the issue multiple times now. I’ve been to three New York rallies and have donated every spare dime to GOA, NAGR and SAF. How about the rest of you? What have you done, besides post on TTAG and bitch about “appeasers?”
I don’t think people realize how much the “inconvenience” is. Now you can only sell/buy a gun during gun store hours. Do you think the gun stores are going to jump to serve private sellers? No, they’re not.
It takes about an hour to get a gun store clerk’s attention in my LGS. They close every day at five. I can’t sell or buy a gun during the week (lunch hour is not long enough), I have to do it on Saturday, the busiest day of the week for all gun stores.
All this to make complete morons who refuse to think feel better.
I’m not against background checks. I”m against all the stuff that comes riding along with background checks. Not just de-facto registration, but all the mechanisms that keeping background checks tied to FFLs introduces that allow the executive branch to ratchet up obstacles to lawful gun ownership without congressional oversight.
If a person cannot be trusted with a firearm, then they cannot be trusted with an ax or a gallon of gas. No to background checks of any kind.
That one went to 11!
“i spent hours and hours w/ Manchin and Toomey going over what’s in the bill”. Wow, did they consult him before they presented it, or was he working at the bargaining table with them?
Interesting, nonetheless.
lobbyist lawyers write bills (The Brady campaign wrote the NY SAFE bill according to Cuomo). What he is saying is that SAF lawyers helped write the bill.
“Can hardly speak English”?
Is he joking? Half of the native English speakers in this country can ‘hardly speak English’.
english? We speak American here, thanks.
Code words for those evil mooslim terrurists under every bed.
CS your posts are inflammatory insulting and you appear to be going off-topic in a way that defames this site and the reasonsble gun supporters here by association.
I suspect you are a troll. Either the individual who needs attention or the sock-puppet variety. Please prove me wrong.
I had assumed that the NRA came out against the background checks only temporarily, so as not to have the battle lines moved to the magazines or “assault weapons”. In the last few days it became unclear whether that was the case. Given that, in my personal view, the background checks issue is not only not winnable but could really hurt if mishandled, I started worrying that they could make things worse. I am glad someone is finally dealing with reality as it is.
If Biden likes it, its got to suck no?
While I am a 2nd Amendment purist, I have to take what Alan Gottlieb says very seriously.
And if the other side hasn’t “figured it out yet. they have now. The funny thing is, this bill will probably be shot down by liberals.
I am sure that they will try to amend it but they are eager to pass something with “bipartisan support.” The senate is still very pro-gun, and last time reciprocal concealed carry came up it got 58 votes. No red state democrat is going to stick their neck out for 2014. I will await to see the final bill, but this seems like a decent starting bid.
I think the libs have also backed themselves into a corner. They’ve all been screaming for common sense compromise, so here is “common sense compromise.” If they suddenly oppose it, they become the obstructionists.
You cannot deny Alan Gottlieb has pro 2A chops. His organization is responsible in part for both the Heller and McDonald victories. Decisions which may help see these stupid state AWBs overturned. Let’s not be too quick to hang him.
And if gets shot down, that is what we want because now we can say “anti-gun” crowd is against background checks. And if they vote for it, in red states that can be used against them to and beat them up for voting for it. Either way we win.
I would also like to stop using liberal and use “anti-gun” because I had dinner last night with a self described “flaming liberal” who is amazingly pro-gun and thinks many of the laws are just plain stupid and will do nothing. With some education, some liberals could actual support our cause.
I would trust a liberal libertarian over a conservative statist any day of the week.
+1. I agree. Libtard is too easy and defames those of us who consider themselves liberal thinkers in the classical meaning of the term. This is a big tent here at TTAG. Lets stick to facts and reasoned debate. Thats rare enough on the innertubes and drives the progressive elitist neo-Marxist gun-fearing bible-hating Obamanoids crazy too.
Absolutely true. Go over to Breitbart and see the level of the commentary there. A bunch of kindergartners throwing rocks. TTAG readers tend to rise above.
Tend…
@RF — I thought you would have a better read of the game being played and would be less critical.
He is not wrong and he is thinking the long term. You are not going to win on absolute terms. This is a victory because the alternatives could be much much worse. Think beyond today.
Too many people here do not think strategically. It is not an all or nothing game, we cannot win that way right now. Something will get passed because the political winds are blowing that way, you can be part of the solution, or be subjected to a much worse fate. You want to come in for the kill, there are 9 democrats that need to be voted out next year.
Go ahead and flame all you want, I know what “shall not be infringed” means but you need to understand the politics and the game that is being played. In CT we are taught the long game and you cannot win every battle.
The gun guys are being overly emotional without taking the long view or understanding how it is being played. He did not sell us out, he helped from being worse.
What you should be fighting is for the amendments that Harry Reid wants to add are voted out and we want “just” the background check bill vote. Not sure how many people have read it, but it is far more of a win than a loss and I wish people would look at the fight and see that sometimes you have to beat parry before you can attack. You cannot fight on all fronts all the time. This makes the polls and Newtown parents go away.
So, go ahead and flame away, but I understand where Alan Gottlieb is coming from and it makes a lot of sense. He is playing the cards before him and this is as good as it gets because congress will “do something” and then go away having done “something” that amounts “to nothing”.
It is a victory although it may not look like one, it removes the debate because the Obama admin gets to make believe they have done something.
something akin to “all men are created equal” and “if we want to get this Constitution thing accomplished, i guess you can have your slaves, but they only count as 3/5ths for representative counting purposes”.
Do you see the original Schumer bill? Have you seen the new bill? Please compare the two and tell me which you would rather have. Something was getting passed if you like it or not and you can spout whatever you like but it has not basis on the political reality of the situation. Dig in you heals all you want, see what you get. Spend some time testifying in from a Blue State set of legislators and tell me how far you get. This is a victory no matter what you may believe.
Well written. Also, I agree that we need to be vigilant against amendments that the opposition will try to sneak by us.
“This makes the polls and Newtown parents go away.”
They may not go away. The anti-gun groups are coalescing and getting better organized. Their demonstrations may not attract huge crowds now, but they are held in many places, and that is nothing to sneeze at. The whole issue of gun control may yet become one of those “save the whales” types of causes célèbres that just keep churning for a number of years before getting supplanted by something else, escially with the President stoking the flames. So, I wouldn’t ascribe too many healing powers to Toomey-Manchin. And yet, one has to deal with political reality and save what one can and with luck even win something back. The alternatives are even worse.
The real problem is Bloomberg. He’s almost out of office and has billions to spend on his new pet cause.
There are too many areas where other laws are cited and changed without the actual text being included in this legislation. I doubt you have read those. I can’t even find them. Passing this as is without understanding what’s being changed elsewhere is wrong.
Talk about unintended consequences.
No means no. Not one step more. We haven’t done anything wrong. The choice of tools is being maligned. Not the monster who chose the targets.
This isn’t about politics, it’s about rights. Rights need to survive regimes.
I used to tell my salesmen that its better to get 100% of a crap deal then 0% of a fantastic deal. We are playing 3D chess. I am willing to read the final bill and see what is in it. Gottster has been true to the cause for 20 years. I aint running from him now.
Unfortunately, I think too many of us see this as the black/white issue as it is – shall not infringe. But, this is not an issue about guns or constitutional interpretation. It is a political fight pure and simple. Our normal personal philosophies – stand and fight, come and take it, not one step back – do not mesh well with the realities that the people voting in the Senate are politicians who thing only in terms of compromise. The problem is that most people think in terms of compromise. While we may be comforted by the fact that most people here think as we do, most people I know – of whom almost are gun owners – are not opposed to background checks. They are not in favor of them, but it is a concession they can live with rather than have this debate continue on until some other tragedy that will only put more at risk.
But, the political reality is that Obama needs something to come out of the Senate with regards to gun control otherwise his anti-gun hawking highlights that the Senate is not always in step with the Dear Leader. Until he gets “something” to put on his resume relative to Sandy Hook, he will continue to focus on it. Background checks are not the way to go – and they will be abused – but, politically, doing nothing will only keep this is a hot political issue.
And I will say, Alan Gottlieb, is a first-rate guy who has done more for guns rights in this country than anyone. So, I have to believe he knows of what he is talking when he says the bill is worthy of consideration. I don’t agree, mind you, but Alan knows more about big picture, gun issues than I.
Well, I am off to the range to shoot…while I still can.
The other thing we have to consider is we need something to pass to get this off the front pages and the minds of Americans. There will be another high-profile mass shooting, they seem to happen about 6 months to a year apart. If that occurs while we’re in the middle of this debate, we’re screwed.
I say pass this and move on. I’ve read the damned thing, the whole huge mess of it, and my gut says it’s a good deal. We get a lot out of it.
Concur. As important as 2A is for many this is a fringe issue and We The People need to put the pressure on this admin and Congress to address jobs Obamacare and the budget. All massive fails by the dems and this admin and part of the reason they exploited the Newtown tragedy and the State Run Propaganda organs to take the eyes of the public off the ball…
It would be nice to get something for giving in on universal, like elimination of waiting periods imposed by the states; protection of privacy of CCW’s or ???
We get a lot out of it. Such as being able to use a permit in place of a background check, buying handguns out of state, and making misuse of filed 4473s a felony.
So they get the chocolates, and we get the foil wrappers! Thanks, man, I never saw it that way before…
You do realize all those “filed” 4473s from dead, retired, or bankrupt dealers are now “archived” on an ATF computer,
right?
You think that when they push the “collate and alphabetize” button on that machine they will give two good flyin’s what the “law” is? Really?
Emotion is the absolute worst thing about humanity. It has enabled the worst atrocities this world has ever seen. Human emotion is the proof that the creator has a dark sense of humor.
We, the citizens who stand up for our unalienable right to keep and bear arms, have a few advantages of our own.
First and foremost, I have talked to countless armed citizens who outright reject the notion that government will come and take their guns. Of course it is discouraging that people refuse to consider the possibility. That said, I can guarantee you that most of those armed citizens will not roll over if government does come to confiscate. They simply have to see it to believe it. But once they believe it, it will be a really bad day for the people going door-to-door to confiscate.
Second, we have the Internet. When Waco happened, the only source of information and actual video of the event was the mainstream media. This enabled the power brokers to portray the event as a righteous law enforcement action against two-bit criminals. Today, practically everyone has cell phones with video recorders. And citizens will be able to share their videos via the Internet. This will provide hard evidence for the masses. That means those people in the, “I have to see it to believe it.” crowd will activate.
The Internet provides another key factor: the ability to organize and operate in grand scale. Let’s consider an unconstitutional government confiscation scenario. Twenty years ago, an armed citizen who had the will to resist the confiscation might yield because they recognized that their singular action would be in vain — for no one would know about it. Today, armed citizens who have the will to resist can organize and resist in unison. This has much more potential impact and, hence, incentive for resistance minded armed citizens to actually resist.
Finally, thanks yet again to the Internet, basic research on civic matters is easy. If someone had told me about a liberty concept in the Federalist Papers 20 years ago, I quite honestly would not have gone to the trouble to go to a large library and look for the source. Today, it takes less than one minute to find such sources in your own home or office. This is a big deal. We can confidently inform people who operate on logic and facts rather than emotion. That means we can easily win over people that we would have required much more effort to win over two decades ago.
The status quo has worked to the advantage of the power brokers of yesteryear. The status quo will actually work against them now — they just don’t realize it yet.
By the way, if you don’t believe what I typed above, just look at the recent push in the state of Illinois to ban everything under the sun. The Illinois legislature operated under the old paradigm that they could quickly and quietly enact bans. Within a day or two, tens of thousands of people learned of the ban via the Internet, organized via the Internet, and responded via the Internet (with e-mails) and promptly squashed the legislation. Twenty years ago, that legislation would already be law. This was just a preview of what is yet to come.
Sounds like a good deal to me. I’m inclined to trust one of the best gun rights advocates of the past 2 decades. There where a lot of things in there that benefit me, and I think the legal protections on existing background check data is an important foundation to start laying this day and age.
Agreed, this is a man that has fought tooth and nail for gun rights for 20+ years… I have to at the minimum give him the benefit of doubt. I travel interstate all the time, we still have family behind enemy lines in IL. This would protect me and mine in our travels.
Just sent this to the SAF:
Did I hear right? Gottlieb is in favor of the Manchin-Toomey background check compromise bill??
If that’s the case, you can cancel my lifetime membership in the SAF.
Are you ****ing kidding me?? I feel like a fool for joining as a lifetime member.
My thoughts exactly.
Stop supporting SAF, NRA and GAO and that solves what? Are you going to go court for us? Are you going in front of SCOTUS? Typing here on the forums will not move the forward.
I do not see how you action helps in the fight in anyway.
HOW ARE YOU going to make a difference in this fight?
You call me names all day long, but tell me how what you have done will help the fight?
I’ve called you names, Pascal???? Ummmm… where?
That said… you have no idea what I’ve done (or not) to make a difference in this fight. I’ll just say this: I AM ACTIVE. I will not say more than that, as I prefer to remain anonymous on these forums.
But, I am VERY disappointed with Gottlieb at this point.
SAF has done more than ANY OF US to fight for gun rights. Please don’t throw them under the bus so quickly. After all, they helped give us Heller and McDonald, the two most important 2A victories of the modern era.
Congratulations, racer88. You’re a fool no longer. Excellent. Those who are okay with negotiating rights can have this country; let us start another one. Stay away from it; it appears this compromise crap is highly communicable.
Actually you idiot, Barack Obama is to blame for rising gun and ammunition prices. The reason it is so high is because he is trying to stop us from owning guns. Im actually doing a project on this right now. But this will not pass, because less than half of the Senate disagrees with this act, so it is a failure anyway. Im only in the 10th grade and know more than you, and yes I’m white.
Isn’t Maine nothing more than another libtard blue state?
All it takes is one election and any state can go full libtard.
Y’know, Medicare and 2A arent mutually exclusive.
The people of Main take their liberties seriously, and don’t elect fools. Should someone have a change of heart while in office, they depose the fellow.
So go wear a “ban women from the professions!” brown shirt, contard.
Contard? Still jerking off to that signed Obama pic bixby?
NO.
Maine and New Hampshire (along with much of Vermont) may not fit the description you are looking for in a “Red State”, but they’re about as gun-friendly as you’ll find.
Let’s put it this way- Vermont is a constitutional carry state, and both Maine and New Hampshire are open carry states with shall issue carry permitting. NFA firearms are legal in all 3.
Folks in these states generally have a very strong urge to stay the hell out of the business of others, and expect the same in return.
Conservative Governor, Independent Senator King (historically works with Democrats, supported by Bloomberg in election), Republican Senator Collins (crosses aisle regularly, NRA C+ rating), Democrat Representatives Pingree (Southern district gun-grabber) and Michaud (Northern district, endorsed by NRA & NRA-PVF). Southern district is where most of the population is, and gave the President his win in the state. Northern district is overwhelmingly conservative.
At a minimum, the Governor and Michaud get it. He is good at his word, for as long as he’s there, gun rights are safe, which is definitely better than a goodly number of states can say today. King and Collins are on the wrong side of universal checks, but on the right side of opposing the second coming of the AWB. Both have been wishy-washy about magazine capacity restrictions.
does it keep you up at night that there are Liberals who are gun owners, hunters, pro-2nd amendment, military veterns and all around decent people?
We need to stop using the inaccurate term “background checks.” This is not about a “background check requirement.” If I go down to the local sherrif and pay for a background check on someone I’m thinking of selling a gun to, that wouldn’t be good enough for these gun control people. They want there to be an official government form that gets filled out memorializing the transaction and making clear that it is a firearms transaction.
So-called “background checks” are about every single person who wants a gun having to get permission ex ante from the government.
If a pro-gun legislator wanted to push this, he could file an amendment to this bill that authorizes private background checks as a substitute for an FBI NICS check. It would die a firey death, precisely because this is about government control of guns and gun owners, not about making people safe through background checks that are actually effective.
[And for what it is worth, I am a state bureaucrat who works on draft legislation and draft regulations every single day at my job. I don’t care what excuses people want to give to their favorite compromisers, it is pure stuff and nonsense. People who are willing to compromise on other people’s liberty because they don’t want to harm their relationships with other legislators or other lobbyists should all be seen for exactly what they are: people who are putting dollars in their pockets at the expense of their constituent’s or client’s principles. This is about them preserving their stations in life, not about their having some kind of special wisdom about the process.]
If a pro-gun legislator wanted to push this, he could file an amendment to this bill that authorizes private background checks as a substitute for an FBI NICS check.
Yes, exactly. NICS was designed as an open system that would permit private sellers to check their buyers. In the end this was not permitted because private sellers could not be forced to retain records.
It was never about the checks. It was and still is about the records.
There ya go! Bingo!
It IS about the records.
So checks (will be able to-) take place but there will never ever be a registry?
States will never hand CCW records to DHS. Ever. Right-
This is the first step to de-facto registration and you’ll be a felon if the Gov’t decides chain-of-custody for a weapon makes you ultimately liable (several transactions back-) for somebody elses actions.
Exactly. The scary part is how many records ATF already has…
By their own admission they have around 4 million 3310s (multiple sales to individual). About half a million in the stolen database, and at least 300 million 4473s since all this “dealer” nonsense got started with another ‘reasonable compromise for the children” in 1968.
Sometimes I ask myself what kind of gun laws this country will have in 25 years. No one knows, of course, but with the decline of many rural counties and the growth of suburbs and cities it would seem that they will likely be more stringent than they are today. It wouldn’t surprise me if there is a requirement by then for all States to require an FOID of some kind to buy and own guns and ammunition. In some sense, the current bills giving preferential treatment to CCW permit holders for some transactions is a step in that direction, except for it being a choice rather than a requrement right now. Whether all guns, or certain types of guns, will be registered by then is less clear, but at last some types of firearms may well be all registered by then (or at least required to be registered).
It sounds most unappealing, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Would that be a disaster? Well, yes, but how big a disaster? The disaster scale one might use is this: (a) are the permits of whatever kind one would need to buy, to own, to carry, etc., of the “shall issue” kind or “may issue” kind, (b) are the bureaucratic procedures convoluted enough and the cost high enough to make getting a permit impractical for many people.
I hope things are better than that by then, but you never know. There is certainly much that will happen in the next 25 years.
The real question is what kind of country will we have in 25 years. My personal point of view is that the country will suck.
Oh, that. We won’t have to wait 25 years for that. We are pretty much there already – gun laws lag behind the rest only because of how ingrained they have been in American culture.
We can discuss the why and the what ever but the bottom line is that Fedzilla wants to take our gun.
“actually did a good job”
I’m not here to make offensive attacks, but how in the world does this not support civilian disarmament?
There was one fact presented as though it is real: most Americans want more “gun control”. The rest of the dialogue was jokes about how, in the name of increasing disarmament, the bureaucrats just do a bunch of meaningless things, write meaningless legislation.
SNL is trying to convince viewers that the nation wants more gun control, but those selfish and stupid “pro gun” politicians are avoiding it.
Masshole refugees are slowly turning Maine and New Hampshire blue. LePage’s election was an anomoly. We sent RINO Collins to the Senate and she supports gun control. New senator Angus King is a liberal disguised as an “independent” and he will do the same.
King talks about his position on current gun control topics:
http://bangordailynews.com/2013/04/11/opinion/angus-king-presents-his-position-on-gun-control/
He’s wrong on universal background checks and wrong on magazine capacity restrictions and wrong on who calls AR-15 style rifles “assault weapons”.
He’s right about his positions being irritating.
Collins positions found here:
http://bangordailynews.com/2013/04/09/politics/susan-collins-says-gun-control-groups-gun-rights-groups-both-have-her-position-wrong/
Y’know, back before AWB version 1 – long, long ago – AR15s, AKs, neutered UZIs et cetera were marketed as assault weapons.
Something about marketers wanting to more effectively attract the 22-25 year old, testosterone-poisoned demographic.
The name stuck. Deal.
@LKB
This is kind of what I am thinking… I have read the bill, there is nothing in there that to me looks bad… I am not a big fan of background checks, however if we get some rights in return for going along with this… I could see this being a pretty big win for us.
The 2A tide turned in our favor with Ruby Ridge and Waco, when even the dumbest of low-information voters were able to see with their own eyes that the government had no qualms about murdering American citizens, including children.
The left was praying for their own Ruby Ridge, and they got it in Newtown. Soon, swollen with power and hubris, the left will launch another Ruby Ridge. They would rather murder Americans “under the radar,” but they just can’t help themselves. Power corrupts.
Just pray that the next Ruby Ridge doesn’t happen at your home, and that the resulting mountain of bodies is comprised of federal Gestapo.
But what about this?
http://www.ammoland.com/2013/04/maine-to-hold-a-week-of-hearings-on-anti-gun-legislation-starting-april-8/#axzz2QSHBlsro
Illiterate mooks shop at gun stores too, short stuff, and they make purchases with background checks. Those checks don’t look for stupidity but a record of criminality.
He is 100% wrong about supporting this or losing all our rights. I explained to my liberal mother what universal background checks really meant yesterday and she was shocked. Shocked that you could have to background check someone you have known for years, that you couldn’t inherit guns, etc. Nobody really knows this stuff, they just know it sounds “safe.”
Is this what Democracy is really all about? The tyranny of ignorance? I am seriously questioning what side Alan is really on. His position does not make sense, we are negotiating from a position of constitutional strength while the enemy is relying on yellow propaganda and trying to intimidate us with loaded opinion polls. It seems this leftist strategy is working on some.
We need to throw the guy overboard. He’s SINKING THE BOAT.
The bill only applies to sales at gun shows or of weapons advertised on the Internet or in a publication. You can still sell a gun to a friend without a check. You can still pass a gun down to a family member without a check.
There does need to be clarification on what a “publication” is. Does an email to friends count? What about a posting on a gun club bulletin board? or a Facebook post?
Difference? Mass media all over the South applauded Wallace and his ilk.
We’re going to “lose our rights” if we let pricks like Gottlieb speak “for” us. He DOES NOT speak for us, and the media should understand that these turncoats they feature as pro-2A “spokespersons” DO. NOT. SPEAK. FOR. US.
PERIOD. Who’s got tar? I’ll bring feathers. Also we need a fire guy.
ben allen, as far as I’m concerned being able, willing and prepared to defend your family, friends and nation is a duty of every able bodied citizen. If you can’t, you get a pass, but if you won’t, you have no right to be here, you’re a parasite.
Dependence on government for personal defense is the ultimate surrender of self to the state. It is an invitation to tyranny that few governments will resist, and if you cannot see the onset of tyranny at this moment and not be alarmed you are a fool.
Regardless of your taste in comedy, the fact that SNL even touched gun control shows that Obama waiving the bloody shirt to get sympathy will not work anymore as gun control has been treated as a joke by even the most biased of writers.
Sandy Hook parents have a special moral standing: http://guardamerican.com/index.php/blog/35-politics/537-sandy-hook-a-special-moral-standing
It doesn’t mean they should control policy. But they should certainly inform it.
Based on this article, this bill might truly be a net win. We who believe in the RKBA have been lobbying for nationwide concealed carry license reciprocity for quite some time and this bill appears to offer that. I think universal background checks, with protections against it turning into a registry, are insignificant if reciprocity comes along with it.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/13/manchin-toomey-deal-could-allow-gun-owners-seller-to-carry-sell-across-state/?test=latestnews
It’s not reciprocity, it’s peaceable journey. We were supposed to get that in FOPA, but that law has proven to be a death trap for the unwary.
Who would sell this guy a gun? He could pass every background check they could ever dream up, and I wouldn’t. You can just look at him and tell he ain’t right.
Consider that the bill (as stated, even by Gottlieb) would regulate any private transaction that ORIGINATES from the internet… as in Buy / Sell / Trade forums online. So, that would be the end of that.
I’ve watched the video. He makes it sound like we win a lot of concessions. Put simply… I don’t believe him…. or them.
This way there be dragons: http://guardamerican.com/index.php/blog/47-safety/308-on-sanity-the-second-amendment-and-the-civil-society
Seriously? Heavily medicated? Those are two very, very common medications for both anxiety and depression. This is not a story. Him not being reported for having violent and psychotic impulses. That was a story.
Reported to who? the magnificent guberment? Sorry, I trust the people, Randy
Noncommercial sales are exempt. Intrafamily transfers are exempt. The “peaceable journey” provision of FOPA is extended to include overnight stays and pit stops, things that are currently illegal and get people arrested to the great glee of New York and New Jersey authorities. Recordkeeping is highly limited. Gun registries remain banned. The Senate goes on record as recognizing the RKBA.
There are a lot of good things in this proposal. We have not been sold out by the SAF, nor by the NRA A-Raters. Not yet, anyway. We’ll see if and how this bill gets through the Senate.
Yup. Thats the bottom-line. Wait until this comes out the back end of the sausage factory…
Main stream media is the propaganda wing of the government. The government is all about power and control. Control of the masses.
Guns in the hands of the masses is a direct roadblock for what the government is ultimately all about. So they will do whatever they can to suppress anything that addresses the root of the problem of mass murders, i.e., it being a human/social problem, not inanimate object problem.
Susan Collins just rolled over. No. Move deep south to Texas. Screw everyone up north
April 14-2013, time 1:30 pm, I just read the list of replys to Sen Murphy of CT. from top to bottom without skipping a beat. I needed that, I am gratefull to have found so many who write what I feel and write it so well. I found this site by accident less than an hour ago and wrote it down in my ledger,,to stay there for good. THYNX
I had been against this bill and emailed my Senators and Representatives and let them know I was against it. Now, however, I have changed my position. Knowing that the 2nd Amendment Foundation was instrumental in writing this bill gives me hope. I trust Mr. Gotlieb and if he says this is a good bill and something we should support I will do it. For this to work in our favor we have to make sure there is enough pro-gun amendments to work but I see how this could be a very good thing. Maybe this is how we get national carry reciprocity. I am writing my Reps to let them know I support this.
As they say, correlation does not mean causation.
Does anyone think that maybe, just maybe, he was taking these drugs because he already had something wrong and THAT condition was what contributed? Like trying to shore up a building that ends up collapsing and blaming the attempted fix for the failure, when the underlying problem existed all along.
Correlation does not inherently imply causation. But correlation is needed for linear causation. I read nothing exclusionary in the post.
But ian! Don’t you know that the government approves meds?! This HAS to be some kind of plot to make people go insane and commit mass shootings so that the feds can ban guns!
Massive correlation here:
http://www.ssristories.com
Published side effects of one of the drugs he was on:
****
Psychiatric
Behavioral problems have been reported in as many as 30% of treated patients.
Psychiatric side effects have been reported and include behavioral disinhibition (particularly sexual disinhibition), depression, and rarely, psychosis and mania.
Other
Other side effects have included withdrawal symptoms (similar to those which may occur after withdrawal of barbiturates and alcohol) which have been reported after abrupt cessation of clonazepam. Specifically, seizures, agitation, restlessness, anxiety, delirium, psychosis, dysphoria, insomnia, tremor, abdominal cramps, vomiting, rash, and sweating have been reported to have occurred, especially after long-term therapy.
****
Not saying it was the drugs, but certainly this needs to be investigated.
Sounds like a good training drill.
The sole reason we haven’t had confiscation already is because the government can’t locate enough guns to get it done in a very short time frame. All you guys who have no objection in principle to Manchin – Toomey because it prohibits building a registry might want to look at what recently happened in Missouri, in violation of state and federal law prohibiting the release of information. And also remember that information is like gas in a container – when it escapes your control you can’t get it back. If the data base CAN be created, it WILL be created.
And you might also ponder the fact that these ‘outrageous loopholes’ the bill is closing were, when the current legislation was enacted, agreed to by both sides as ‘reasonable compromise.’ We have always been opposed by a determined and fanatical bunch who understand incremental progress; every one of us they peel away from the fold is a step toward their total disarmament goal. The only way to preserve the Second Amendment is to defeat ANY new proposals this time around, and discourage them for a decade or, hopefully, a generation.
I had an experience with this in Iraq in 2003. We were walking down a street in Baghdad when we passed a walled compound. When we got to the driveway gate, an Iraqi was there with an AK-47 pointed at my buddy. My buddy spun, raised his M-4 and was well on the way to the second click of the trigger when the guy dropped his AK and ran. Turned out he was part of a security detail that didn’t recognize American Soldiers (duh). I think the surprise of having a rifle in his face caused him to turn tail.
“Ban Umbrellas!”
I have a much better idea. Let’s start making semi-automatic rifles that look like umbrellas. No one thinks that umbrellas look scary. So the tactic of banning them because they look scary will be off the table.
In fact people have a favorable association with umbrellas — which protect them from bad weather of course. Imagine how hard the gun grabbers would have to work to reverse that positive association!
The problem with those drugs isn’t that they made him crazy, but that they don’t actually treat the psychosis he had to begin with.
He should have been on antipsychotic drugs, not the kind of stuff your grandmother would take for anxiety.
OTOH, all sights seem to be correctly mounted, muzzles safely pointed and trigger fingers indexed.
Uh, Robert? Paging Robert Farago. I don’t believe that people get hooked on “Psychiatric Dugs“, but things might be different in Colorado since I left in the 80’s…
Maybe it was the Umbrella Man. The umbrellas are intolerable… if it saves even one child…
Gunmakers, stay out of New England and the Northeast where the infections known as New York City and Boston have spread like smallpox. If you’re already there, move to a state where POS-POTUS was trounced in the election. Regard every Obama voter as an enemy, and every Obama vote as a nail in your collective coffins.
Maine is Obama country. Avoid it. They will sell out everything for enough free sh1t.
Ralph, As your enemy let me be the first Liberal, gun owner, pro-2nd amendment, hunter and frequent voter to tell you to FOAD. Thanks.
Florida is very Firearms friendly and our Governor is a gun owner and big supporter of new business and the unions (read Mob) do not control the job market… and the weather is great too… YOUR IDEAL move……..
You need to go back and read the rules. Half the stuff you thought about is illegal in the m16 modern matches.
You have to use a 12 inch rail or a non-railed handguard. A piston rifle would be illegal. Muzzle breaks are illegal. You must use standard A-frame sights, even on a railed gun.
They don’t specifically say you have to use a carry handle rear sight, but it looks like that is the norm.
I would just stick with the m1/m1a matches for now.
Why limit your boycott to Freedom Group? Don’t forget about Kimber. And, don’t forget about all that awesome stuff made in California. We all know Cali has been trampling on te constitution for some time.
I propose you completely boycott anything made in New York. Since you want to ride around on your ethics horse and all. Or, do you just bandwagon?
The only real crime here is the tac vest, blue cammo and…. shorts?!
Someone needs to call the Fashion police on the police!!!!
Shorts!? Accetable only when assigned to bicycle detail, he should know that!
“Brace yourselves, you who would gain temporary peace by compromising with those who despise liberty. We have been taking notes. And you have been warned.”
Are you going to start shooting people????
LOL.
What’s suddenly making everyone think that the administration defending the Mexican Guns ‘R Us program is going to police the ATF with any degree of severity because “making ubc into a registry will be a felony under this law”? This is not a “major win for us” this is an opportunity for the antis to flood us with more of their defective “compromise” and they’ll use the “failure” of this bill as an excuse to demand more.
How much will I have to pay to sell my gun? Or buy it?
Who’s to say the government won’t use this background check as a way to limit gun sales, much as they originally used a draconian tax to limit suppressors sales?
We are still going the wrong direction. The role of progressives is to move government to the left. The role of “conservatives” is to keep things from moving to the left too quickly.
Who will drive our society towards more freedom again?
I’ve gone over this proposal a dozen times, and the good outweighs the bad BY FAR. Imagine Mayor Bloombastic allowing people who are transporting arms to stay overnight in NYC? No? Well, this bill permits it and overrides any local laws to the contrary. Private sellers are immunized against lawsuits when they sell pursuant to a background check. You can sell a gun to your neighbor with no check, just as always. You can transfer a gun to a family member without a check, just as always. There’s a lot of goodies here. The biggest one — RKBA is recognized as an individual, fundamental right.
If the courts follow the lead and recognize RKBA as fundamental, it almost guarantees strict scrutiny of future “gun control” laws. Strict scrutiny, people. It’s the Holy Grail of 2A.
The fact is, I can’t imagine any true gungrabber voting for Manchin-Toomey as currently written. Look for the bill to be gutted like a fish, because it’s too good for us.
Ralp, under current California law I cannot buy or sell a gun to a friend or neighber without going to an ffl. Does this law override state law and make it legal for me to do private transactions without the ffl? That in itself would be a win in the constitution free zone of California.
It’s time the Wussy “Journalists” come to understand this one FACT… If it weren’t for the 2nd Amendment, The Bill of Rights would not Exist. The 2nd Amendment was not written to protect a Citizen’s Right to Hunt. It was written to protect Our Republic from Tyranny.
“the guarantee that people, including federal officers, will go to federal prison for up to 15 years if they attempt to use any gun sales records to set up a gun registry.”
Well golly, what’s the penalty for voter intimidation? And do the existing one in the Southwest, complete list of MO CCW holders given over for “Social Security fraud prevention”, and the 4473 binder-canvasing in Alaska count as ex post facto for enforcement?
It’s a trap!
Francine Wheeler, the Newtown mom giving Obama’s weekly radio address isn’t the impartial victim she appears to be.
Her maiden name was Francine Lobis (and as recently as two months ago was calling herself Francine Lobis-Wheeler), here is her wedding notice in the New York Times from 2001 that states she worked at that time as personal assistant to Maureen White, the finance chairwoman of the Democratic National Committee:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/07/style/weddings-francine-lobis-david-wheeler.html
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/nhregister/obituary.aspx?n=benjamin-andrew-wheeler&pid=161791434#fbLoggedOut
I would think the executive strategists with these gun manufacturers are thinking long and hard about if they will make a move, and where in fact they will go. As someone else pointed out, a state can become stupid almost overnight. I would think Maine is a bad choice for relocation, sorry. Love the place but the cancer will spread there eventually. The only sure things are Texas, Arizona, Georgia, Alabama in no particular order. I myself would be overwhelmed with joy to live in these southern states, the last bastions of true freedom and self-reliance in America. These places aren’t perfect either, but the weather, people, sane cost of living, and of course the common sense firearms rules make them nearly so. I am myself a Southerner, whom went to college and earned the wrong education now I’m stuck in a Slave State as there is no industry for my profession back home. I should have listened to my mother! Aye eye eye. Northeast=bad news period. I heart NY, love the lobstahs of Maine, VT is beautiful, etc etc. But for a manufacturer, you gotta think about the long term.
Glock, HK, and FNH will be very, very successful while our own homegrown American companies, older than dirt, will be hamstrung into insolvency unless they pull their heads out of their lower intestines and move south. They should have done this a long time ago. These foreign companies already produce the world’s most influential and trendsetting products as it is. It is my theory that the mgmt at Smith, Colt, Ruger, et al have been asleep all these years, to let these foreign companies come and outplay them at their own game, ironic as there is no civilian market or outlet for their wares in their own respective countries. I love these foreign products too, but I suppose that’s the story of all industry in the USA. Complacency will kill even the strongest juggernaut. I want our companies to be the innovators, I want foreign companies to be forced to resort to copying them, not the other way around. The oppressive atmosphere of the northeast and CEO complacency are the root reasons I’d rather have a Glock than an M&P.
If they do what’s right and make this move, it will end up being much more profitable for them in the long term no matter what the upfront cost ends up being. The states they move to will be enriched in turn. Everybody wins, nobody loses (except for the libs in the NE and in such case who cares, let them reap what they have sown). The South could possibly rise again. Perhaps eventually the renaissance could promote a market for my profession and I could move back on down to GA where I belong.
These Stupids, these liberal fools, these circus bears on tricycles, have zero understanding of economics, human nature, the laws of physics, or world history. These are the types of individuals that don’t pump their own gas, and hire brown people to cut their lawns instead of doing it themselves like normal civilized human beings of substance. My God am I tired of being up here!
And of course none of these bills will stop another Sandy Hook. It merely allows politicians, on both side of the isle, to have their cake and eat it too. Until the next shooting spree for which this will have paved the road to an all out ban. I will not support this shit, I don’t care how many cherries and sprinkles have been thrown on it.
@CJ
Agreed!
This is a huge improvement on my 700pss w the hs prec stock. My wife went from shooting 2in grps to 1/2 in simply due to being able to focus completely on trigger control and maintaining a good shooting position. Especially prone, she can now put her cheek to the comb and open her eyes and shes looking straight thru the scope -from i was amazed at the difference. Before she was always “swaying” her head .. off the comb.
Welcome to Texas, Glad to have you.
And this is different from the US Prohibition, alcohol-Mafia, Al Capone Chicago Gangster violence how…….
For one, none of the parties mentioned above chose to kill people en masse. American gangsters of the era depended upon public relations to a certain degree – many saw them as folk heroes of sorts. And one or two may have qualified. I have Pretty Boy Floyd in mind here.
The Mexican cartels apparently don’t feel the same need for PR.
So it’s ok to shoot targets with pregnant white ladies on it but not young black males in hoodies. Got it.
It was dumb to bring those to work, ‘no shoot’ target or not. Hopefully he’s not mischaracterizing his own actions. If it wasn’t done in a ‘hur hur Trayvon target hur hur let’s shoot it!’ type of manner, then he shouldn’t have lost his job over it. It’s still quite the lack of judgment though.
I guess this all goes to show that “No Shoot Targets” should be strictly limited to depictions of Boy Scouts helping little old ladies to cross the street. I am sorry Sgt. King has to learn a lesson in public prudence so harshly. Hopefully, some other PD will appreciate his skills and give him a second chance.
The Trayvon Martin situation is the straw that broke that camel’s back for me. I have been around guns my whole life but I never felt the need to get my CPL. When this mess happened I could easily imagine myself getting caught in a similar situation.
I am a young Black male that sometimes wears a hoodie due to the weather here being often wet and cold. At the time of the Trayvon incident I didn’t own a car so walking to the appropriate bus stops required me to walk through neighborhoods I “didn’t belong”.
I can easily see myself being profiled in a similar way. We all know there’s a bunch of idiots out there that will overreact to my presence the same way Zimmerman did. Who knows what really happened, I wasn’t there so I’m not going to be too harsh with Zimmerman but this woke me up and made me realize that my 1911 isn’t just a range toy or a home defense weapon. I now legally carry my 1911 cocked and locked at all times outside the boundaries of my home.
It’s a shame I felt the need to shift in that direction but now I know if someone wants to kill me for passing through their neighborhood I will rock their world with a face full of .45 ACP.
Regardless of the Travyon Martin situation, your decision to carry is a good one.
The world is cold. A white guy can get accosted in the middle of the street for no reason. A black guy can be accosted in the middle of the street for no reason. These things happen.
Whether yo’re being profiled or you are just the nearest target of opportunity, a gun might mean the difference between your life and death. People seem to forget that alternative outcome when they bitch about firearms.
Can we just ban “lockdown” Along with other moronic made up words such as homophobic, _____- American. (add your others).
Notice how they adopted Obama’s own phrasing? (“Common Sense Solutions”)
Four years ago Obama used the phrase; “Let me be clear”, and i’m still waiting.
You mean they are (were?) states where you can’t target shoot from your kitchen table? That’s BS.
Personally, I’d go to .45ACP Jacketed Hollow Points in the heaviest bullet weight I could get for in home defense…one…maybe two hits should do it. Practice those rounds fired counts and magazine changes until fast and smooth. Add a good laser sight for nighttime. Make sure the spouse or significant other gets plenty of practice, then you should be good to go.
Oh, and don’t forget to support your favorite Gun Rights Organization in their Legal challenge to this ludicrous law. The price of a box of ammo donated to their Legal Fund could be money well spent.
Any who comply are slaves.
Who am I kidding, anyone who lives in NY currently has signed themselves into slavery as is.
The only thing I can figure is either Alan knows that SOME bill will get passed by our “must do something” pols and he’s doing what he can to lessen the impact, OR he is just hoping that the Supreme Court comes in and strikes the private sale and possibly gun show sale provisions leaving the rest of the bill standing.
how much you wanna bet big brother takes this article down? i was thinking also a new ban on tannerite. sure looked like a tannerite explosion didnt it?
For those of you asking that TTAG not post articles like this because it gives ammunition or ideas to the gun grabbers:
If dozens of the Armed Intelligentsia have thought of these possibilities, so have the gun grabbers. They are not stupid. I don’t see how it hurts us to state hypotheses that the gun grabbers have already considered.
One billion dollars….muh ha ha ha ha!!!!!
So even the wetpants senate leader, dingey harry reid, bailed on his dem majority and voted no. That’s voting your convictions, eh harry? Barry’s got to be so proud, not!
No gun control bill ever introduced by liberals is a good thing for lawabidding gunowners,…ever !! UBC’s go to registation,and that goes to potential confiscation ! Don’t trust anything a liberal says unless you see it yourself !