“You don’t understand guns, and you don’t know gun guys, yet you want to make rules for things you don’t understand for people you don’t know. And that is not how we’re going to end up safer. Where gun guys draw the line is having you make consumer decisions for them. Because what you’re saying, Joe — you, on the Upper West Side of Manhattan — you want to say to some guy in Kansas, ‘You can have this rifle. But you can’t have that one.’ And they’re saying, ‘What does Joe Nocera know about guns? What does Joe Nocera know about me?’ It is offensive.” – Dan Baum in What Gun Lovers Think [via nytimes.com]
If I remember right, this was someone Dan interviewed, not Dan’s words himself. Maybe in the next week I’ll re-read his book and write a review – I must say, I was rather appalled at the constant condescension towards gun owners that was inserted into every single chapter.
Totenglocke,
So true. Can you imagine these two enlightened solons speaking likewise about any of the popular special interest groups? They’d be instant pariahs, Oprah fodder.
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In the article Dan said, “The N.R.A. is a hideous organization. Every day I get e-mails from people who say, “I’m a gun guy, and I can’t stand the N.R.A.”
Dan, if you read this, would you please articulate what those gun guys and you “can’t stand about the N.R.A.”
honestly, i dont think that the NRA gets better until we have some more SCOTUS rulings under the belt.
The NRA in its current form exists because groups like the Violence Policy Center and the Brady Campaign exist (whose goals are to ban handguns, and have for 40+ years). Yin and Yang. Both extremes are equally bad.
Groups like the VPC and Vinny DeMarco will go right up to the line an cross it. And they are more than willing to twist, stretch, or make things up to do it. Its is phenomenally irritating and intellectually dishonest to include suicides in “gun violence” statistics as if background checks and straw purchase penalties somehow address that. Or a gun registry. These guys have a playbook, and part of the playbook says “we are not coming for your guns and the NRA is crazy.” Well, in point of fact the VPC and the brady campaign (formerly handgun control inc) are coming for guns.
And the NRA exists in its current form to beat them down.
Just another DEMOCRAT who doesn’t know what the HELL she is talking about. The movie theater was a GUN FREE ZONE that is why no one could have stop this MANIAC LIKE HER.
“I don’t mean to be facetious but the very idea of carrying a gun terrifies me. I would not feel safer with a lethal weapon on my person. I would feel scared. Scared that that gun would be used against me. Scared that it might go off accidentally. Scared that any violence might be escalated because of its presence.”
The essence of her argument right there, everything else in the article was pure, unadulterated rationalizations to justify her fears. She failed to mention her worst fear, and I know it’s there. The fear of taking another life. This is pretty normal actually. There are people that, in their minds, find taking another life so repulsive that they have to rationalize their fear to live “normal” lives. This fear extends to animals, they would never kill a chicken, but they will eat it.
I postulate this. Change the circumstances. It’s not you who is getting raped. It’s your 12-year old daughter, and it’s happening right in front of you. Would you want to have a gun with you then?
“We have turned this society upside down because 3,000 people died on 9/11. In the scheme of things, that number is also statistically insignificant. Yet we take extraordinary measures, limiting people’s personal freedoms, to prevent another act of terrorism on our soil. ”
And you use this as an example of a good thing?!
“JOE: Why do gun owners get to have this level of “respect” that no other segment of society has? I could say, “I’m a responsible driver. Why does the government get to tell me that I have to wear a seat belt?” ”
That’s a very good question. Seatbelt laws for people over 18 are stupid. (I personally always wear mine even when I’m driving for less than a minute.)
Funny that some other guy named Anonymous deconstructed the same points I was going to — especially the post 9/11 security theater. I guess anonymous minds think alike. I will, however, add that
> “JOE: Why do gun owners get to have this level of
> “respect” that no other segment of society has?
Every liberal special interest group is treated with far more respect by the mainstream media, legislators, and courts than gun owners are.
Can you imagine if gays, blacks, women, illegal Mexicans, etc. were villified the way that gun owners are? Nocera, Baum, etc. would have a conniption.
There has been an incredible double-standard at work for decades. And gun owners are well aware of the Left’s “politically correct” hypocrisy. Or what Dan Baum called a “permitted prejudice” when I saw him speak at the Boulder Book Store a few weeks ago.
As Glenn Reynolds once wrote:
Wow… Dan does NOT speak for me, or any of the gun guys I know… Universal background checks is by definition universal registration, or how else will they know when I sold that gun? And his definition of holding gun guys responsible for other people’s actions is retarded… So if someone breaks into my car, hot wires it and drives it into a crowd I should be thrown into prison?
Guns are a bad idea, president grabber will tell you this surrounded by guards with machine guns. Who will the airhead call when threatened?, not ghostbusters, you guessed it , cops with guns. I think their lunatic dream is losing steam & we will hear more desparation, Randy
> JOE: Forget about banning. What if the law said,
> “Your gun must be locked up at home. If it’s not,
> we’ll prosecute you.”
>
> DAN: I’m with you.
Liberals: Wanting to legislate what we do in our bedroom.
It’s along the lines of your being in no way held accountable should your car be stolen and used to attack a crowd – unless you left the keys in the ignition.
Yes, it’s ones right to leave keys in an ignition, but it’s irresponsible to do so. It’s also my right to never clean a rifle and to use ridiculously hot loads, but if I hand such a grenade to a range buddy, I’m liable.
He’s not suggesting a safe law with inspections, but rather a safe law in which if your “arsenal” goes walkabout a safe better’ve been peeled.
No safe? Then don’t report the theft, receive no compensation from your underwriter and don’t get the guns back should they be recovered.
Seems reasonable. The right is to keep and bear arms, not to leave them lying about.
For progressive\socialists, the ends justify the means. Lying and distorting the facts is the least they wiil do to enforce their beliefs on everyo
Over 200 million people have been murdered in the name of progressive/ socialists/ communists fanaticism.
Most of these “elitists” look to the mass murdering psychopath Mao as an inspiration and a role model for what is possible, what these purely evil people with their “hope and change” they want to achieve in their nightmare vision for “social justice”.
“Don’t attribute malice to something that can be explained by stupidity.”
While Robin Kelly does indeed speak with a lot of malice, I attribute this remark to rank ignorance. All she knows is that Colorado is a shall issue CCW state with a lot of “gun nuts” so there must have been a lot of people packing in the theater.
I hate that quote. Just because someone said it and it sounds witty does not make it universally true. Both malice and stupidity can and often do coexist in the minds of politicians, left or right. The facts don’t matter, the stupid part is to say whatever comes to mind just because it feels right, the part that wants to use the stupid against other people is the malicious part. They reinforce one another. Bloomberg is stupid, and malicious. Obama is stupid, and malicious. Grabbers are stupid, and malicious.
Most of the meat in the Nocera-Baum debate will be picked off by everyone else, but there was a comment that seemed out of place for the NYT:
LarryFresno, California
When I read this discussion between Dan and Joe, it seems like they inhabit a different planet from my own.
I’m now in my 60’s. When I was a young boy I was taught firearm safety. I had a .22 rifle hanging on the wall in my bedroom when I was in 6th grade. So did many of my friends. We respected firearms and were careful with them.
All of my acquaintances at work have advanced degrees, and all have firearms at home. Some have several. Some have more than several. Many of us are members of the NRA. We had our children learn the Eddie Eagle jingle: “Stop. Don’t touch. Leave the area. Tell an adult.” (What to do if one finds a gun.)
We do not think of ourselves as “gun guys.” We think of ourselves as ordinary Americans. We think of gun control advocates as kooks.
And we want you to leave us alone.
robert, you do know that austin it saturated with liberals ..right? it’s the only part of texas that is blue….your not one of thoes blue guys are you?….
In L.A. In the early eighties, police chief Gates said of concealed carry that while he could not officially recommend it as it was generally illegal, he’d much rather that “we” [the police] caught you with a concealed gun than that a bad guy caught you without it.
Pretty strong words.
Welcome to Austin. I’ll concede…you’ll deal with 3 months of brutal weather, but the balance is great. We do get a series of cold snaps during January and February, but they typically last 2-3 days before before it warms up again.
As for liberals…haven’t run into many anti-gun types. Our liberals are “tree huggers”. At least their energies are spent pursuing some common good. Lots of green space and clean water, unlike Houston and Dallas who want to pave every square inch and throw up a big box store.
Oh forgot to mention, lots of anti big box and chain store sentiment down here. We like to support our local businesses.
I’m in Ohio which has a pretty passionate shooting and hunting community. Pretty sure any attempt at more gun legislation would meet with a lot of resistance. My local gun stores seem to be well stocked, actually. ARs are back in stock several places. The only thing that seems to be in short supply is 9 mm and 22.
Corpus Christi is nice, I haven’t met anyone that doesn’t own at least one gun. All the javelinas you have ammo for.
My state is doing fine; Indiana is a wonderful state for gun-owners (shall-issue permits with no training requirement that can be issued at 18 rather than 21 and that don’t expire, no ABW, etc.). The only problem is that I’m a university student. Even though we don’t have a law banning campus carry (so it’s legal by default), all of the universities in our state do so anyway (along with anything even remotely resembling a firearm; a while back I saw someone cited by campus security for an obviously plastic AK-47 with an bright orange tip.). So, I can’t own guns at all unless I want to risk getting expelled.
Beautiful Arizona…
Need anymore be said? 🙂
I find worrying about Dan not being “one of us” to be misplaced. Lots of people out there are not “one of us” anyway, and he is not a polar opposite either. On the other hand, if it is humanly possible to make Joe Nocera question any of his assumptions, Dan is the right man for the job.
No, I will not disclose how I feel since in modern America feelings are more real and dangerous than facts and truths and therefore feelings must always be hid away somewhere secret unless of course one’s feelings are part of and in support of the new Social Collective.
Kansas is still solidly the Free State. The Light of Liberty is glass-encased ’cause of the wind, but the rules here are mind your own damned business and lend a hand if asked.
While minding ones own damned business does by definition mean socially liberal, common courtesy means that the more outré among us keep private so as not to play “freak the mundanes.”
Yeah, we do have our nuts, but they’re few and far between.
In the sticks, they don’t really care what you have or do so long as it ain’t nuclear – and if it is nuclear but under a couple kilotons they’ll usually give you the wink. 😉
Kansas is cool, but don’t tell anyone; we don’t want six million displaced Californians and New Yorkers turning it into an annex of Pacoima or Yonkers.
The Failed “War on Drugs” needs to end.
Right. FVCKING. Now.
When are we going to declare Mexico a “Failed State”? Cartel members can go on youtube, and pose for a photo-op with their guns, and a huge banner (someone had to actually pay for that banner and print it off…) in broad daylight, with 50-70 masked guys armed with fully automatic rifles, and no one seems to give a damn!
Our soldiers and Marines shouldn’t be running around the sands of Iraq or Afghanistan, they should be running around the sands of the American South-West, shooting these barbarians!
These are our modern-day Visigoths, people! Our modern-day Huns, or our modern-day Vikings! These are the enemies of Civilization! You know those scenes from history books where the barbarians are rallying together before they storm into the civilized city, killing, raping, and looting and burning to their heart’s content everyone and everything in sight? Well, look at that video, ladies and gentlemen!
Imagine those guys going down the streets of your nice comfortable suburban neighborhood! Imagine the screams of the young women they’re raping next door, oh wait, you won’t be able to, as they’ll have blown your brains out after kicking in your door before doing that!
History books of the future are going to wonder why us Americans didn’t do anything about those barbarians when we had the chance…
Its only a matter of time until they turn their sights on us. Don’t think they’ll be limited to just the South-West. Do you think the Ancient barbarians stopped when they took the outlying areas of the Roman Empire such as Britain, or parts of Gaul? No, they wanted the Heart of the Beast! They wanted “Urbs” “The City” Rome itself.
They aren’t going to stop once a city like Tucson or San Diego falls to them, no. They’re going to keep on going, Seattle, Topeka, those are on their hit-lists, or even our modern-day “City”, New York, NY.
They are coming.
Why is this Gun Guys meme still being pushed; because the antis are still acting like Lawless Communists? To push book sales?
The Radical Left is not going to purchase, or read this book but they will blog endlessly about it in an attempt to poison the minds of the non-committed as a means of furthering their agenda, just like Obama. The fly in the oinkment here is that there are very, very few non-committed people left, a few slackers, hipsters and nerds they will not buy or read the book either. The armed intelligentsia need not read it as it is a redundant tomb for them. For actual Gun Guys reading this book would be like Charlie (GRHS) reading Travels With Charlie.
So why the Big Push?
Quote: “The Truth About Guns does not encourage or condone any gun owner to shoot another human being save someone who poses a direct, credible and imminent lethal threat . . .”
You can strike “Lethal” from that statement – if someone is gonna beat my ass, I’m gonna cap his.
The laws of California rise near the level of “Right to Revolution.” When the people’s militia is weakened to the point where its’ state Medical Board SWAT team has more firepower than folks that live on your street do, and the redistricting election committee proves itself corrupt, then the story goes dead and the Dems win a super majority. Well, you’re there. I’m taking my retired teacher’s pension and moving out of state. Going to make my stand in a free state.
I live in a free state, for now. Sadly I do not see it staying free forever without another round of bloodshed. I suppose this is what they meant by refreshing the tree of freedom.
Well I bought a P-11 in January,I had to send it back to Keltec,It would not even feed factory FMJ,I had to drive out the first round in the chamber with a punch!Also the recoil spring rod would not allow me to reassemble the pistol,it kept the barrel from going fully forward to slip the assembly pin back in,also the magazine latch would not let the magazine slip in unless you depressed the catch first.The feed ramp also veered to the right where the first and only round to go in had to be reloaded into the magazine and slowly inserted into the chamber.If I had known about tese problems before hand I probably would have bought a new style 9mm revolver,I have another 9mm auto,that is pretty much a clone of the military sidearm,never a problem,after 30,000 rounds.Was planning on buying two other Keltec weapons but have decided against it,if this is any indication of their products.last thing I sent the P-11 back they recieved it in Febuary,and it is still there,they are in a 9 week backlog before they even get a chance to look at it,2 words for Keltec “quality control”!
I personally will not buy anymore Colt Firearms while they continue to support the State of Connecticut by manufacturing there. I will encourage others to do the same. If I were Colt I would seriously consider moving to more gun friendly states. I am quite sure that states would offer significant incentives to get them to come there. Sorry Colt, love your products, but it’s a matter of principle. Good Luck to your company and the crazy state you call home.
This is pathetic and he will not stop……My fear is his narrative is constantly fueling the left base while wearing down the 2A community. I personally will never give up the fight, but I do wonder if these events coupled with unprecedented ammo shortages and firearm price gouging are enough to make some surrender. Put another way, a whatever happens/happens attitude.