“Too bad too many idiots here worship firearms rather than respect real humans. The reality, that more than 20,000 a year kill themselves with guns, has no direct bearing on your, or their, supposed “God given” right to own firearms. Ask any widow, especially of a veteran or soldier, whether they are reassured by the puerile notion that their loved one at least got to pray at the Altar of the Second Amendment one last time before succumbing to depression, PTSD, or other mental illness. There is a broad legitimate range of considerations regarding mental health, and the gun-at-any-cost crowd only makes the entire firearms advocacy movement look insane. You morons disgust me.” – TTAG commentator LGBTQCCW under our post Quote of the Day: Former Army Vice Chief of Staff: Take Guns Away From Vets in Crisis

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

129 COMMENTS

  1. This bit has me wishing I could find that gif file of Bugs Bunny saying “What a maroon!” It’s the perfect rejoinder to the incoherent hoplophobia of LGBTQetc!

    • His punctuation is quite good for a diatribe such as that. Absolutely above average.

      • I can respect an enemy that obeys the rules more than an ally who does not, no matter what those rules may be.

        • not sure i follow SUNSHINE SHOOTER’s line of thinking. you would respect the ENEMY because he follows the RULES, so i assume you are talking about the ROE’s, for the day. then, you would not respect your Allie, if he broke the ROE’s, for the day. in the current wold, dealing with the MOOZLIME ROE’s, which are NON EXISTENT, you and your ALLIE are already handicapped. ROE’s are written by people behind desk in WASHINGTON D C. & the ENEMY could care less one way or the other. the battle field is a fluid place & survival is the top priority, along with accomplishing the mission. if you happen to shoot an unarmed enemy, but you were in a FIRE FIGHT with many targets, that is just an OOPS. when put in the context of bombing a target building and killing both armed and unarmed personnel, no one really cares, except the ENEMY & the MEDIA. imho.

  2. Another mushy cretin, who believes that absent one tool, someone committed to accomplishing something will suddenly abandon the enterprise. Japan (and about dozen other countries) disprove the myth of causality.

    Sadly, another example of why we need to return to teaching logic, and basic stat & prob in high schools

    • Exactly. Also parenting. It’s a necessity to bring up a child with values, morals, and work ethic. A strong foundation like that can help anyone who’s going through tough times persavere through them.

    • I’m a disabled vet with PTSD. I got rid of my guns a few years back, because I have too many really bad days, and it would be tempting sometimes to give myself a 9mm haircut.

      This was a personal choice, though. I’m not against anyone carrying, and with all my skill and training, I probably should, but the risk is too great for now. Hopefully I get better in the future and can own one again.

      • Thanks for your service, brother. May your demons abandon you peacefully.

        I’m sure you know the VA has a program for you?

        Good luck!

      • Thank you for your service and sacrifice Aaron. You are smart enough to know what you need to do. I don’t know if the VA has worked with you or given you medicine but I’m retired with 40 years of fire and police work and they say my thoughts and nightmares are PTSD related…. I don’t know but one doctor who actually listens to me gives me a mild medicine called Clonazapam and it does wonders for me and I and others can’t really even tell I take anything, all I know is that I have much better days and it is definitely not one of the strong tri-cyclic anti-depressants that they give to a lot of Vets.
        Best of luck to you sir..

      • Aaron

        Thank you for your service.

        If you ever have one of those dark days and don’t know if you can keep going please reach out. If you can’t get anyone locally post here. I know I will respond and I am sure most on this blog would as well.

      • Aaron, thank you for your service and sacrifice. Thanks for also having the good judgement to know yourself, and know what you personally need to avoid, just in case you have a very bad day.

      • Thank you for your service and I appreciate your wisdom.

        A friend told me recently that another friend of his, also a vet with PTSD, recently asked him to go to his house while he was at work and take possession of his sidearm for safekeeping. I have another friend who went through a bad bout of depression about 10 years ago and, despite living in a place where gun ownership might generally be wise, chooses not to own nor carry as he admits if he had one 10 years ago he might well have been inclined to use it on himself and he has been long worried that it would come back.

        I respect each and every one for making that decision. The 1A doesn’t prevent one from just shutting up and the 2A isn’t a requirement to be armed to your own possible detriment, not to mention family and friends. Making such a difficult to admit for most evaluation and decision is commendable. I hope each and every one of them can fully heal and find themselves whole and happy.

    • It’s also very difficult to determine some as suicides. Not everyone who does it leaves a note. And without a note, guy falling off a cliff is just a guy falling off a cliff.

      • Exactly, and just how many single vehicle crashes are just written off as just that?

    • Moreover this response to veteran suicides deflects attention from where it should be placed – the problem of mental illness. Other commenters have already said it; if a person is truly committed to ending his or her life, they’re going to find away. If you’re going to try to keep them from killing themselves, take their car keys, meds, alcohol, knives, razorblades, access to heights….

      Treat the patient not the symptom.

      I’ve lost friends and relatives to mental illness. One of them used a length of rope. LGBTQCCW’s comment above is despicable; it is hyperble that does nothing to improve the situation but rather serves an unrelated goal – disarmament.

  3. Why bother feeding a troll like this? Plenty of better ways to commit suicide then using firearms,

    outlaw tall buildings, bridges or car exhausts and garden hoses why dont ya.

  4. LGBTQCCW and the alphabet community can have something to say about mental health just as soon as it acknowledges that transgenderism is a mental illness.

    I mean we need to make sure crazy people don’t get guns.

    • Everything on that list is an illness, by definition. But hey, they lobbied hard enough to get their illness off the list. (Tell me again how someone who voluntarily walks down a public street in just leather chaps with his dick hanging out is sane.)

    • LGBTQCCW and the alphabet community can have something to say about mental health just as soon as it acknowledges that transgenderism is a mental illness.

      You mean there is something not right with me if I proclaim (vociferously) that I am something which I am not?

      If I get an implant in my forehead, take the right hormones, limit my vocalizations to grunts and loud non-verbal screams, climb trees, run around beating my chest, and eat tons of bananas, can I claim to be a chimpanzee? If I thin my hair, use some process to wrinkle my skin, let myself get weak and frail, and wear old polyester clothes, can I claim to be a senior citizen?

      Neither can I be born a female and claim to be a male or vice versa, no matter what processes and procedures I take upon myself, no matter how vociferous I am, no matter how intense my feelings may be.

    • Last I checked, within the self-proclaimed “trans” demographic, the suicide rate stands at roughly 41%. This statistic stays pretty consistent both before and after any surgical mutilation the subject elects to have done – clearly indicating that their desire to harm themselves has little or nothing to do with their biological gender. In other words, it’s all in their heads. So, yeah – that pretty much sums up the definition of a mental illness.
      Question is then: do they still use a gun to end themselves?

      • Yes, the biggest factor seems to be accepting an accepting community .

        So if you really care about transpeoples lives, treat them with Dignity and respect.

        • [citation needed] Accepting mental illness does not help people with mental illness.

        • Really??!! How did you come to arrive at that conclusion? To clarify MY understanding of YOUR assessment, All (??!!) “non-heteral” people that are committing suicide is because they are not ” being accepting in accepting community”. BTW, Dignity and Respect is due to all individuals.

        • Sure, but How is it dignified or respectful to accept that they have an untreated mental illness that has rapidly been turned into something desirable by certain segments of society?

          Letting the mentally ill mutilate themselves in the name of diversity isn’t dignified and isn’t respectful, it’s outrageous and a lot of people actively encourage it, in fact lot of people think it ought to be paid for by the tax payers.

        • Wow Chris, you’re addorable. It’s almost like you think that’s a credible source rather than a left wing propaganda rag.

          As for “treatment”… how about something that is shown to have a measurable impact on patient outcomes? (There’s a reason why there is no measurable difference in sucide rates for any of the current gaystapo approved “treatments” for gender dysphoria.)

          How about we start treating aberrant anti-evolutionary sexual behaviors as a disease rather than a “lifestyle choice”?

  5. Freewill is a terrible burden. Imagine choosing to to have a different point of view than someone else. The absolute horror of recognizing that burden in another person and coming to terms with the decision, right or wrong, that person makes. Just terrible.

    If we can eliminate a persons ability to make choices we can save the human race from itself.

    • Sure, G-D gave us the free will to follow the laws of the universe as he has set, or to violate them. And so just as a person can choose to deny the laws of gravity as he steps off the edge of a tall building, he can feel free of such an arbitrary, bigoted and unjust law, until the sudden stop at the end proves his choice as …..Unwise.

      So the laws as he has set as to human relationship. A person can choose to violate the laws of nature as set by G-d as to gender and traditional marriage by supporting “alternative relationships” and moral relativism, until the sudden stop at the end, historically speaking. as the society that embraces such beliefs and behaviors shows these choices as being…..unwise.

      As the Bible says, when what was once right is now wrong, and what was once wrong is now right, and perversions and abominations are the accepted norm, we know the time is near for the end of such a culture, and collapse and the tyranny that follows is near.

      You see, I don’t believe in laws that determine “moral behavior” or a government that legalizes marriage. G-d gives us the free will to follow his laws, or not. And then he allows the person to pay the price of their choice. So the same with man’s laws forcing individual “moral” behavior. They violate free will. But I also believe in the freedom to associate with those that freely choose to follow G-ds laws, and also the freedom to call a spade a spade, and to call a pervert and a degenerate a pervert and a degenerate.

      Oh, wait, that’s called “hate speech”. And I can’t tell a man that feels like a woman to not use the woman’s bathroom and a woman can murder the unborn as a “right”.

      Yeah, we are about time for another dark age, if not the actual apocalypse.

      • + 1 million.

        Dag gum it ThomasR … I am going to have to make a special trip to New Mexico now just to visit you and buy you your favorite beverage of choice!

        • I’d be happy to tip said beverage, a good local micro-brew is a good choice. After all, B. Franklin did say that beer is one of the proofs that G-d loves us. 🙂

      • 100% true. Good post. To bad that to many today can’t learn the most important lessons of history.

        • Isn’t it? Six thousand years of history showing these laws to be true, and still people deny reality. Human beings are such a “stiff necked” people.

          What is really weird is that the same people that worship at the foot of moral relativism and alternative life styles also romanticise the “noble savage” and the “purity” of Hunter gather societies. Yet, if they were to go live among those same tribal people’s , and try to act by those same relativistic beliefs like free love and sex outside of marriage with those same tribal members, they would be at very least be beaten and driven out of the tribe, if not killed outright. Those “Noble Savage” types are VERY unforgiving if you violate one of their taboos and codes of behavior.

  6. Because no liberal, anti-gun, alphabet entitlement group member ever killed themselves????

    • In my experience it’s actually almost strictly liberals that kill themselves at a young age. Conservatives typically do towards the end of life, when they have health complications and terminal illnesses, and they’d rather go out on their own terms.

      • “In my experience it’s actually almost strictly liberals that kill themselves at a young age.”

        I’d love to see if there are any hard numbers on that, but I doubt they exist.

        I can easily believe ‘Progressives’ suicide at a higher rate than Conservatives, since self-loathing is considered a virtue by the left.

        It really is a sick mentality they have. The really weird thing is, they get a major rush when they focus on just how much they hate themselves and this country. They feel *good* about feeling *loathsome*. The whole “recognize your privilege” crap they go on about.

        Is there an official psychiatric term for that condition?

  7. The sad thing is another 20,000 people commit suicide every year without firearms. Internationally, suicide rate is independent of firearm ownership. Suicide doesn’t get rid of problems or make your pain go away, it only gives problems and pain to other people. I have known a half dozen people who have killed themselves, I’ve thought about it myself at times. It doesn’t make it any more or less painful to the people around you if you shoot yourself or walk out in front of a freight train. Families should be there for their loved ones. Yeah take their guns away until they get help, but offer to help them get the help they need. Support them, simply taking somebodies guns won’t stop them from killing themselves. That’s the lazy “look we did something” way that won’t do anything. Be there, don’t make them feel attacked, persecuted, less than human, unworthy, stupid, or anything that adds to the stigma of mental illness. This rant was probably not well worded, but I hope I got my point across. The simple act of taking a persons guns won’t stop them from killing themselves. People experiencing mental illness or going through a hard time need a support system that offers support and helps them get help, not government mandates, not the mandatory confiscation of property.

    • I didn’t think your post was a rant. I didn’t think it was poorly worded, either.

      Instead, I think it was meaningful and carried an important message.

  8. I hate that even any single death by suicide is firearm related, but taking away one method of suicide fixes nothing.

  9. A close relative told me she might be depressed, but she doesn’t want talk to a professional because it might hurt her employment chances. The government has turned mental health practitioners into State snitches. If diagnosed with a mental health condition she immediately becomes a second class citizen in many ways and losing her gun rights are least of her concerns. She doesn’t own a gun or care about guns.
    If we want more people to seek help, then get the government out of medicine. Mental health should be about helping sick people not trying to control the entire population.

    • We’ve reached a point in medicine in this country where any privacy is illusory. Look at EHR (electronic health records) they are required now by law is almost every practice through a series of rules promulgated mostly by HHS or HRSA. You can bet your health records have been scanned and uploaded, unless your Doctor retired or died more than 5 years ago and or you haven’t seen a Dr in that long. Even the old paper records are being uploaded. Almost everything is now available for sharing across the various EHR platforms, meaning the info is stored on a mix of commercial private and government servers. You can’t really know what has been said about you in these systems, and they are accessible, albeit in an unauthorized manner, to 10s of thousands of people from clerks and techs to providers insure an email employees and of course other providers.

      Again, any privacy in health care is long gone at this point. Proceed accordingly.

      • You hit the nail on the head my friend. Most of the population aren’t even aware that their medical records are accessible in a similar manner as their credit score AND is being you to justify life/medical insurance coverage/ and cost. “Mental illness”, once diagnosed and recorded will stay with you forever. If it happens when you’re in your twenties, forget about having any security type jobs. Not to mention there’s no ‘benefit of the doubt” should anyone lodge a complaint against you – right or wrong.

        • Worse yet, you may be denied or charged more, or whatever else without knowing why, since the providers notes in EHR aren’t accessible to the patient in behavioral health practices. Someone with the right credentials can put in your record that you’re…nuts, and there it us, and you don’t know it, and if you find out, there is very little you can do about it.

          Anytime they want to take guns from ‘mentally ill people’ remember that there are literally 1000s of people who maliciously or by accident or by mistaken diagnosis can put in your health record that you are mentally ill, without telling you, and you would likely need to sue to get it removed, and that’s not a guaranteed solution.

          These laws are meant only to allow more government control over those it is concerned about, not to improve anyone’s safety, unless maybe it’s the government’s safety.

  10. Some troll’s comment is irrelevant.
    The real point is that the VA, and much of the brass, would choose to take away a veteran’s means of self-protection, all the while putting as many pills as they can in their hands and in their heads, and walk away.

  12. Let me see if I have this straight – because in a given year 0.000625% of Americans with serious emotional issues decide to use a firearm to end their own lives the other 320 MILLION Americans should give up their natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms?

    In what universe (not populated by unicorns and cuddly Smurfs) does that make any sense whatsoever?

  13. I find it ironic that this comment is coming from someone who is clearly mentally ill.

    • Amazing ability to derive a medical diagnosis from only one’s choice of a pseudonym and their poorly thought out opinion on a particular issue.

  14. The arguments are mutually exclusive and this is the sad thing, that so many are willing to trample the Constitution and project their neurotic nonsense on to the rest. THEY do need to be called out for the idiots that they are.

  15. It could be more platable to have your firearms taken away with a judges signature and the signatures of say, 4 responsable family members for a period of no more than a month. The firearms would be locked up in a special gun safe (paid for my the family), kind of like a time out. This would also mean the the relatives that did this are now responsable for you while your weapons are having a time out.

    This is an issue that forces the family to put up or shut up. The safe gets opened in 30 days and you get your firearms back.

    The gungrabbers won’t go for that, they want to take all guns and your rights to them.

    • This doesn’t sound so bad, until you recognize how open to abuse such a situation is, and how misguided. As we always say, lock up the people, not the weapons. If you take away guns, you still leave a person with a near infinity of ways to die. We are frail little things, if our geometry, chemistry, temperature, water concentration or anything else leave a very narrow range, we die. I can’t see the point in a special rule for guns other than a camels nose in the tent and an empty ‘feel good for doing…something gesture’.

      What makes more sense is, if a person is determined to be too much of a risk to possess guns, is to remove the person to a safe place. This applies to both suicidal and homicidal people.

  16. ok mr r farago, remember guns do not kill people, people kill people. people with cars, trucks, knives, boats, bats, ropes, sticks, stones, hands, etc, etc. you get the picture. i am not an expert, but i think the deaths by cars far exceed the deaths by guns every year, for a very long time. so to follow your logic, WE THE PEOPLE need to take away ALL the CARS from ALL the people, even though we have a LOVE for our CARS. we have to SAVE OURSELVES FROM OUR SELVES, because WE are ALL MORONS, if we do not do it. is that your message???

    • Bruh. Those aren’t Farago’s views or comments. He posted a comment made by a TTAG reader for our destruction pleasure.

    • Dave, re-read the post. No, go ahead, I’ll wait… Now, did you notice this time around that RF was quoting some OTHER PERSON’S opinion? If not… well, then you might just be an idio… no, I won’t go ad-hominem

      • ok timmy boy. this story was posted twice on the net. the one i read did not make it clear WHO the quote was from. since my post, i found the source:

        “Quote of the Day: Former Army Vice Chief of Staff: Take Guns Away From Vets in Crisis”

        your obvious hostility is a perfect example of the many TROLLS, who ruin a good discussion, WITH DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW, on the NET. i hope your mother lets you out of her basement soon. the world is really a great place to become educated and GROW UP. good luck timmy boy.

        • Dear god dave, you fucked this up again. It is a quote from a TTAG commentor in reference to the individual that you have now attributed it to.

        • Oh Dave, Dave, Dave… bless your heart. Three of us have pointed out that you misread the original post here on TTAG. It’s cute how you get so butthurt over being called out on it. Have a nice life. Oh, my mom says “Hi!” by the way.

          • yep, your just another TROLL, that was pointed out to me by the other readers. you ARE part of what is WRONG with the NET, but you are not alone. you remind me of a NET TROLL named NATE QUAGMIRE. he was able to anger lots of people & attacked them, where ever he was. he was left of common sense & good manners, on practically every topic. look him up. he is every where. you two have a lot in common. good luck with your anger management drugs. have a nice life, after you grow up.

  17. Of course this person more than likely voted for Hillary, who never saw a war she didn’t want to get us involved in, resulting in more of the PTSD, mental health problems, and suicide that it is railing about.

  18. So the logic goes, to prevent someone from committing suicide we need to remove a single means by which it can be accomplished, ignoring the rest, regardless of the cost?

    Using that same logic if I wanted to prevent my kids from getting sick we should outlaw school? I mean, seriously my kids are always coming down with something while they are in school. If I didn’t give them the opportunity to learn and interact with others they would be healthier, right? See what I did there snowflakes?

    Flawed logic like this only makes sense in the mind of a gun-grabber. If you really want to prevent suicide, especially those from our veteran community, fund organizations that are researching and treating the mental aspect.

    Of course, the left-leaning/gun-grabbing snowflakes know this. This is yet another attempt at deflection and misdirection. Page 3 in the globalist/leftist/progressive/liberal/democrat playbook: Put the opposition on the defensive and force them to waste time and effort justifying that which needs no justification.

    Congrats LBGQTLMNOP your lifetime membership in the snowflake hall of fame has been secured.

    • If trampling enumerated rights in the pursuit of suicide prevention is ok, can we outlaw antiwar protests? Those things are upsetting and could lead someone to commit suicide. If the 2nd Amendment is fair game, why not the first?

      For that matter, suicide by cop is a thing, should we get rid of cops, or just their lethal means?

      Proportionality, cause and effect, risk-reward judgements, are the antis literally devoid of critical thinking skills?

  19. Oh, boy, I own guns, and I live near railroad tracks. I also have some good kitchen knives, a car, and pain medication in the house. Don’t forget the highway, I could just toss myself in front of a semi.

    So, if I lived in a Nanny State, would getting a script for minor depression mean the Government would pack me up and move me away from highways, train tracks, the person who takes the pain meds, take my car keys, and make sure I only have plastic eating utensils?

    I’m not trying to make light of suicide. I lost my mother in December at the age of 87, due to natural causes. At times, it has been depressing, but not so much that I’ve tried to cure my depression with my .45. I do believe that, should I need it, I should be able to ask my physician to put me on a mild anti-depressant, and not fear that the Government is going to confiscate all the guns in the house. Some don’t belong to just me.

    If I was seriously depressed, and a gun owner, I could see how mandatory gun confiscation could keep people from getting the help they need.

  21. While I can’t imagine the horrors these soldiers with PTSD have seen, the truth is that this is not a new problem. We must learn how to get these men and women back into society.

    Getting thrown into an extremely antagonistic situation, where you have no control is a horrible thing. Throwing a kid into a penitentury or a country boy into the hood of a big city is also stressful. Felons have parole that is structured so they can live in the society they were taken from(or a better one). I think that a 3 month de-stress period ought to be a minimum for any soldier that has been in a warzone, with help available 24 hours.

    Look at the boy soldiers and the boy asassins of the cartels, the shootcallers from MS13. They all have seen terror, they all were raised to know it was wrong, and thier strength comes from one another. Given time to de-stress with the ones they were in combat with should be a given. Only thier buddies that saw what they did understand.

    These soldiers can be home in 6 hours. In the wars of last century, they were on a slow boat, maybe getting de-stress time, there was still plenty of shellshocked soldiers even when they got home.

    The VA needs to have halfway houses that will take any soldier that saw action(without paperwork) in the last few years?

    • “These soldiers can be home in 6 hours. In the wars of last century, they were on a slow boat, maybe getting de-stress time, there was still plenty of shellshocked soldiers even when they got home.”

      Does the VA or DOD have any hard data on the average time a veteran suicides since returning from combat?

      I imagine it’s at least a few months after they return, when they’ve had time to reflect on their experiences and stew on it…

  22. Most commenters’ (even mild) ad hominem gets censored. Why is it that the ad hominem of trolls and antis not only is allowed to remain, but frequently gets promoted to QOTD/post status?

    The quoted commenter followed up ad hominem with such obvious psychological projection (“worship at the altar of the second amendment”), that the entire comment is worth nothing more than outright dismissal.

    • Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Not saying anything about your mind. (That would be a flame.) General point.

      • Doesn’t the existence of, and enforcement methods for, commenting rules imply an expectation of consistency, foolish or otherwise?

        But, hey, I’ve always understood and acknowledged: your sandbox, your rules. Also a general point .

    • The rules are different, changing, and now we have more and more “should we give ground to the anti’s” posts. Look around my friend, something weird is going on. How many posts are there going to be about “can we forgive Rock River and SA?”

  23. I had a cousin hang himself in jail with his underwear. Explain to me how gun control will stop someone who wants to go through with it. I’m waiting.

  24. Ahhh yes, the old “But if we take away their guns, they’ll no longer want to kill themselves” canard. That’s right up there with transgender people thinking “If I have this surgery, all of my stress, depression, and suicidal thoughts will be cured for good.” Both are wishful thinking, and concentrate on an easy-to-blame targets unrelated to the much larger frame of mental health. “If he didn’t have a gun” sounds a lot like “if the doctor did a better job in the operating room.”

    Look at Japan. No guns there, and people still climb over train track fences their govt keeps building up. Look at John’s Hopkins. They pioneered surgery for transgenders, then stopped because a frighteningly high number of people they operated on killed themselves afterwards.

  25. Another troll regurgitating a leftist talking point who is too lazy to find out the facts.

    My sister committed suicide with a hose attached to an exhaust pipe. Did we sue the manufacturer of the hose or the truck for creating the tools for her death? Did we demand that the government ban hoses and automobiles? No, we are smarter than that.

    Years ago, while working for a small company, I went to a friends office to ask for Tylenol. He pulled out on of those 500 pill bottles and gave me two. A visitor from Britain sitting in his office bragged about how they outlawed large bottles of Tylenol in the UK because people were using it to commit suicide. I asked him what do suicidal people in the UK use now to commit suicide. He got my point. Outlawing Tylenol had no affect on the rate of suicides in the UK. It merely punished all of society for the acts of a few people.

    • That’s brilliant actually Bob. Questions for nanny states: With guns banned, what do your criminals use to rob terrify and murder in your country?

      Since just like suicide, crime continues apace in gun restricted nations, it’s a very interesting Avenue.

      With guns outlawed, how do people defend themselves against violent criminals in your country? Bonus question, are victims more or less successful in thier defense now that guns are uncommon?

      It makes the point, there is still crime and murder and suicide after guns, and these issues still have to be dealt with. Don’t let them make it out as if banning guns is and good thing in its own right, force the debate to the reality that crime, violence and ND suicide predated guns and continues in a post gun society, and the merits of gun control have to be decided on things like victim survival rates and such facts. Not that our right to keep and bear arms here is subject to argument to of social utility or greater good analysis, but then we tend to win on those points, and in comparison with nations lacking our steadfast statutory rights, fair game to force the analysis to be fact based.

  26. When I was in the service during the Vietnam conflict drug use was very common among the troops and not entirely uncommon among the officers either. It was mostly weed but also opiates, all obtained on the black market and all illegal.

    However, it is my understanding that troops in today’s military have legal access to and are, in fact, encouraged to take medications dispensed by the military to enhance their ability to fight, stay awake, concentrate and be aggressive. I’ve often wondered if these drugs weren’t responsible for some of the veteran suicides we hear of.

    Are any of you recent veterans and if so, would you care to comment about this, verify this, refute this, or, weigh in on the possibility that the rash of veteran suicides might be tied to these drugs?

  27. I’m going to operate under the precedence this isn’t just some troll with a post-baccalaureate (read: uninspiring) command of the English language. While any person can dig up non-substantiating evidence in the way of a few half-baked studies to swing the “do guns obstruct or enhance suicidality” pendulum to either side, the terrifying and irrevocable reality is that guns, like everything else used to commit suicide, are just tools. It can’t be argued that guns don’t make it easier to do in the sense of actually committing the act once it is decided upon (though by what margin is greatly arguable). However, the simplicity of engaging in the behavior isn’t markedly related with the compulsion and desire to commit said act in the first place. At best, by prohibiting access or completely removing all guns from the “bad people” (i.e. everyone), we may microscopically lower the recurrence rates of failed suicides (as it often comes in the way as a bullet to a vital region and that’s tough to survive) but that’s just a postulation based on anecdotal evidence. Sadly, if one wants to kill themselves, they’re going to find a way. Perhaps we should be focusing more on the sequence of events/our societal failure that leads to the person becoming this broken and less the tool? I don’t blame a hammer for hammering nails.

    • maybe if the VA CIVIL SERVICE MAFIA was held accountable, did not hand out Fraudulent Bonuses, Spend Millions on ART & did their JOB in general, some VETS would have a BETTER LIFE. maybe?

  28. Where there’s a will there’s a way. Taking away one of means to an end isn’t curing the problem which is the desire to die. It’s like trying to outlaw needles to prevent drug addiction, plenty of other ways to get high.

  29. The premise of an article is as stupid as many comments out there.

    Army official choosing cheapest, simplest and least effective approach to “help” traumatized soldier, and righteous chairforce proclaiming “alphabetical communities” as mentally ill have so much in common.

    Oh, the irony of the Universe.

  30. according to the CDC the WISQARS site for final death statistics……in 2014 and 2015…non gun suicide outnumbered gun suicide. And all the years before, non gun suicide was almost the same as gun suicide…..they only care about suicide if a gun was used. On top of that, Japan, China, South Korea, they have absolute gun control…only criminals and cops have guns……and they have suicide rates higher than ours..
    As does France which also has extreme gun control…and Canada beats us pretty often too….guns are not the issue in suicide…….

  32. “Talk to any veteran”.

    This veteran says “blow me.” I’m tired of vets being used as pawns in your political game to snatch away the rights of the innocent, and the rights of us veterans who returned from combat changed, but completely fine. It’s not unheard of, and I bet it is in fact the norm. I returned home, went to school, got a good job, got married, and got a house. I have zero problem with what I, and the military did over there. And until recent history, that’s what most veterans of nearly all wars of history have done. I’m quite happy with my life and if you use my status as a veteran to try and take my guns you’ll get the same treatment any tyrant would.

  33. How does “RESPECT” stop another person from utilizing their free will to kill themselves?

    What does 20,000 people deciding to end their lives have to do with the supposed “praying at the altar of the 2nd Amendment”?

    Do the words of others cause that 20,000 number to increase or decrease?

    I know service members who have lost family to suicide by gun, I know relatives who similarly decided to stop their pain, I know friends as well who’ve chosen to stop their time on Earth, and not a single one of those people did so to pray at the altar of the 2nd, and I did not pray at that altar because those people used a gun. I pray at that altar HERE, everyday, I pray to the wisdom and foresight of a group of imperfect men, who set in stone the words that would ignite the souls of countless millions in the future.

    Say what you will LGBTQCCW, but if anything, I have seen a community of people on this site and others who are different but EQUAL in their desire to see an America that respects the gravity of the 2nd Amendment.
    You sound like a gun control fanatic, and that isn’t healthy. Perhaps you should be under observation for mental health issues? perhaps just a little checkup, you seem stressed bud. Little smokey smoke might relax you some.

    • “LGBTQCCW” wonders why s.him-it can’t seem to garner a lot of people wanting to equte themselves to s.him-it. Then they post this Communist crap.

      Better dead than red (communist).

  34. The other aspect of this is who is it for ‘you’ to start this argument with ‘suicide is bad’? Suicide ranges from a selfless act of saving someone else even though it causes your death; the jumping on a grenade idea to taking one’s life to cheat a slow pain filled death such as in assisted suicide. If one really, truly feels for those between these extremes then, yes, act to stop the internal or external causes of mental anguish. Work to stop the bullying, the memories of horrors, job loss… The list goes on. Feel FOR those that reach the point of no return and accept that you and society left them to their own anguish. Do not selfishly blame them, and certainly do not blame the tool that they use, to take the final act last act that they feel the only thing that they can control. My firearm has nothing to do with this thread.

  35. It sounds like LGBT… is not a fan of due process but is too timid to come out and say as much.

  36. Gun-grab “song” different verse, same as the first “We’re F’d up, we need to fix you.”

    F that stupid sh_t, and F U in the goat a_ _. Stop saying ‘worship at the altar’. You sound bent and broken.

    Life is for people who want to live it. Guns are for people who want to defend it

    Again, FU

  37. First off, who cares what the troll says?

    Secondly, I know the troll has LGBT in their name, but WTF is with you guys jumping on the fags-r-bad bandwagon? Some of us LGBT people, who also happen to be veterans, who also happen to be more politically active on gun rights than many of you see this sort of thing and wonder why we bother.

    And then we realize that we’re doing it for ourselves, and our friends, and everybody else in the country whether we get any appreciation or internet points for it or not. We’re used to the left hating on us because guns, and we’re used to the right hating us because gay, but these arguments about “you get to talk when you acknowledge your crazy, and if you want it then that’s the definition of crazy” is EXACTLY the argument that anti-gunners use against all of us!

    Grow the hell up.

    • Reminds me of what it’s like being a right wing atheist. Hatred from both sides of the political spectrum.

    • Maybe because a whole lot of us are sick and tired of being shouted down when anything gay comes up. Just stop shouting down a different point of view. TTAG is successful because real people get to express facts that the gaystapo and other leftist progressives cant shout down. One of those is that for most of human history basically every culture country and religion recognized that being “gay” is a mental disorder.

  38. “Too bad too many idiots here worship firearms rather than respect real humans.”

    Hey! I’m not an idiot. Anyway, can’t we do both? I mean, the two aren’t mutually exclusive.

  39. I knew what was coming when the Veteran Disarmament Act was passed (otherwise known as the NICS Improvement Act of 2007). The VA started asking if I owned any guns around 2010 during regular vital screeninings. Their “mental health” system is a joke, which consists of being patronised and having my integrity questioned.

    There’s no way I’m going back to the VA for anything, unless I’m seriously injured and unconscious.

    Additionally, in 2010 I had a close friend who was red flagged as a drug abuser without his knowledge, after needing to replace pain medications stolen in a burglary. I took him to the VA in Colorado Springs, and he brought photos of the ransacked apartment, police report, etc, to the VA… but was told that there was nothing they could do because he was still asking for refills of controlled meds weeks early. He lost his patience with the doctor, and stormed out abruptly (this also led to a psych flag).

    In 2011, and he tried to buy a rifle as a birthday gift for his father, and was denied on his BGC. Why? Because of the VA’s flag. Nevermind that he’d been off of pain meds for years, was never referred to mental-health, SATP, had multiple clean drug tests, etc.

    The last I heard from him (in 2012), he’d had a visit from the sheriff looking for his guns, even though they had also been stolen in the original burglary. The next day they returned; after being notified by the VA that he admitted to owning guns, the investigating deputy discovered the NICS denial. The last I knew was that he was charged (which were later dropped)…. because he had no idea the . gov had decided he was a mentally defective drug addict. But being locked up for a month still cost him his job, marriage, and everything else.

    • this was the direction our government was taking, under the KING OBAMA SYSTEM. we have a new sheriff in town. maybe some FAIRNESS AND SANITY will prevail. time will tell. maybe the VA could be forced to SELL some their MILLIONS OF DOLLARS of ART WORK and use the money for the BENEFIT OF THE VETS. just an idea, maybe.

    • Yes, the NICS Improvement Act, signed into law by the “conservative” George Bush, Jr.

  40. Well, glad to see he got to exercise his 1st amendment right. too bad he can’t read past the 1st amendment to the 2nd one. it wasn’t that far. he may have learned something.

  41. I’ve had two friends commit suicide. Both had a house full of guns. One cranked his car in a closed garage. The other hanged himself. I guess ropes and garages cause suicide. Band them.

  42. I think the “Former Army Chief of Staff” was stating his opinion that it is very difficult to take someone’s guns away, even if the person is suicidal. If someone is to the point mentally where their guns should be taken away, why would the person not be hospitalized. But the real issue with having laws which allow the government or whoever to take someone’s guns away when they are suicidal, is it will also deter the suicidal person from seeking help or saying something. In addition, a person can go to just about any indoor shooting range and rent a gun. In Michigan, someone did that a couple years ago. Rented a gun and committed suicide on the range with it. The real effort should be helping people to not feel suicidal, not helping them pick their method of suicide.
    My two cents.

  43. “TTAG commentator LGBTQCCW …”

    What’s the proper acronym for “Troll-y McTrollface?” I would hate to be insulting … by accident.

  44. Let’s say that you could eliminate about half the suicides-by-gun if guns magically disappeared.

    But guns only account for 50% of suicides. What about the other 30,000 suicides? Do we ban carbon monoxide, or belts, or poison, or bridges, or the oncoming lane?

    Stop attacking a secondary cause and start focusing on the root problem if you want to make a difference.

  45. So many straw – er – effigies, from Alphabet-Soup there. (I would hate to offend.) And for some reason I can’t just get a flame thrower at my LGS. AS there clings silently to the regulatory fallacy: forbidding something by regulation gets rid of that. How’d that work out for alcohol prohibition, drugs, fast cars, and, yes, literally every single time it’s been tried?

    As for the faux-concern about vets, of categories of people in extremis vets are the most likely to be able to get a gun, or find another means if they want to. What the heck does training for armed conflict entail, do you think?

    And the argument for armed citizens, again, some more, one more time, goes (with feeling):

    – Self-defense is a natural right; to own yourself you have to be able to defend yourself at need. (Otherwise your life is a privilege, at the whim of whoever happens to hold some means of thuggery. This includes elected overlords with cadres of hired enforcers — thugs in suits who will not shut up.)

    – Private, citizen, individual ownership of “arms” in the 2A is called out because the *right* to defend yourself, without the *means* to defend yourself, is hollow at best.

    – “Arms” means “guns” because that’s the current state of the art for, commonly available, in common use, personal arms. The point is parity of peaceful, responsible people who will keep themselves within the law, with thugs, predators, crazies and terrorists who will “arm” themselves with whatever evil genie is out of the bottle. Restricting citizens to broadswords when the BGs have combat rifles, you might as well disarm the citizens and stop pretending. When phased plasma rifles in the 40-watt range become common personal arms, they’ll be covered.

    – The 2A restricts *the government* from enacting laws “infringing” citizens’ arms, precisely because, in the false name of “safety”, or bog help us “security” or “good order”, the govt will restrict people it happens to disagree with. Like in, say, the Jim Crow South of the US. And people who can’t get their way any other way will look to hijack the government, to use it’s coercive powers to get their way, at last.

    – Individual rights advocates will consider dialing any of the 2A language and precedent back a bit, if people like Alphabet-Soup weren’t so dead set on capturing the levers of govt, to impose their preferences on the rest of us. The situation is your fault. If we thought you’d act reasonably, we’d be OK with less absolute language.

    — The personal contempt, and indifference to *our* fate anti- folks relentlessly express does not inspire pro-gun folks to trust them with their lives. (You might want to try a different line of argument. As it is you are simply stirring up the deplorables who oppose your agenda … making it harder on yourself. It’s almost like the point is preserving the eternal conflict, vs. improving anything. Naaah, can’t be.)

    – The problem is, you cheat. There’s no argument, no matter how false, you won’t try; no fake facts, no matter how alternative, you won’t claim and promote; no bloody incitement you won’t invoke; no law you won’t contort beyond recognition. ‘You killed the Duke. You took his wife. You stole his castle. Now, no one trusts you.”

    – Until you are seen as honest brokers — gonna be a while on that one — you’re just going to have to live with absolutist legal language, and vigorous opposition to any attempt by legislation, regulation, or enforcement to color outside the lines. Meanwhile, you’re just going to have to depend on our responsibility and good will, to do the right thing even when the law does not compel, and enforcement is not present.

    – Fortunately, especially for you, citizens who own guns overwhelmingly behave responsibly and with good will. There’s a ton of crime and violence statistics supporting this, but it’s simpler than that. You can tell pro-gun folks are lawful, peaceful, and responsible, because you are not dead. With 300,000,000+ guns in citizens’ hands, what do you think would happen if their owners weren’t peaceful, responsible people?

    – A gun is no more dangerous in the hands of a peaceful, responsible citizen than a truck. Maybe, rather than go after “OMG,guns!” which mostly just sit there being heavy, go after the choice to use violence — a human, making a choice, it’s called “agency”, look it up — whether a predator, thug, crazy, terrorist, or simply someone at the end of their hope.

    Any questions?

    Oh, and sign me HsAS: Human Seeking Actual Solutions.

  46. Although I believe that every American citizen, regardless of if they possess of a very long list of personal characteristics and preferences, should be treated with respect and are NOT deserving of discrimination in any way…

    …I just get tired of having the LBGBT sexual deviant crap thrown in my face every time I get on the Internet. Honestly, if you log on to the Washington Post or NY Times home site and search for any number of words or acronyms which related to sexual deviancy you’ll get at least one and probably more hits every stinking morning.

    Hey, I’ll say it…sexual deviancy disgusts me…and I’m just as right feeling that way as the deviants are in feeling their way. But why do I have to read about 0.00000001% of the population’s deviant behavior or rights EVERY FREAKING DAY AS IF THEY WERE IMPORTANT OR HONORABLE OR ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY DESERVING OF MY TIME???????????????

    It makes me wonder what in the world I’ll read about tomorrow, genus change operations where a man becomes a chimp…or a fish…or even a mechanical device such as a freaking light bulb and still wants to be able to vote for president?. Sick. Sick. Sick.

    Leave me out of it.

    • Go on like that, and prohibitionists will be pleased. Nothing aids gun-control agenda better than people presenting themselves as disturbed, overtly conservative, with “I am not against Jews, but…” flag. The fact that a few people went unhinged after being presented with single episode of below-average quality trolling should please anti’s even more.

  47. Leftist trash like LGBTQCCW never say a damn thing about the hundreds of vets that die when they eat a fist full of pills that the VA will given them like candy for their various aches and pains. They apparently seem to think the military doesn’t train you how to use a knife anymore, and thus the only way a they can kill themselves is with a gun. No, in reality they only really care when they can virtue signal to other leftist trash about how much they ‘feel’ for veterans.

    • Not just handfuls of pills, but handfuls of pills that can & do interact/potentiate dangerously. I’ve pointed out one such interaction to a VA doc as was writing a new script, and received a lecture instead about layman patients second-guessing doctors with decades of experience.

      Even better, the VA treats us like ignorant problem children when we want to stop taking those pills, or try suggesting alternate therapies.

  48. sigh, showing yet once again these people simply can not control their emotions. his heart is in the right place, wanting to help troubled vets and the like, but he lets his emotions overwhelm his cognitive abilities and whats left is ineptness and a temper tantrum.

  49. Aaron, I did 22 yrs and have seen close-up the results of untreated PTSD. Lost a wonderful cousin to it. Have a son with it too, from 2 Iraq tours and being blown up by an IED. He no longer owns guns but, he is slowly getting better. I pray for all the young men and women who have seen the worst. You also have my prayers

  51. “has no direct bearing on your, or their, supposed “God given” right to own firearms.”

    So banning them from having guns because they have PTSD, depression, etc (that they do not get committed to a hospital for) does NOT affect their right to own firearms? Funny, but I was under the impression that a ban against them does affect their right, since you know, they can’t exercise their right…. because of the ban.

    Funny how these trolls (like LGBTQCCW) hide their identity instead of being a real man, or woman or whatever he/she/it identifies as.

  52. In 2014, 32,675 people were killed in 29,989 crashes, an average of 96 per day. In 2010, there were an estimated 5,419,000 crashes (30,296 fatal crashes), killing 32,999 and injuring 2,239,000, and around 2,000 kids under 16 years old die every year due to traffic collisions.

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S

    we should make cars illegal too

  54. Overdose deaths involving prescription opioids have quadrupled since 1999,1,2 and so have sales of these prescription drugs. From 1999 to 2015, more than 183,000 people have died in the U.S. from overdoses related to prescription opioids. Opioid prescribing continues to fuel the epidemic.

    https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/overdose.html

    we should make pain killers illegal too

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