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And if the popcorn thrower had left his cell phone in the car we wouldn’t be here today. Or learned enough manners to not use a cell phone in a public theater. Or learned to not challenge an old dog….. Oh Wait. He did learn all those things. Some lessons are forever.
Fortunately, in America, it is not one’s place to teach strangers lessons, especially fatal ones.
IMO, you should run as fast as possible from this one. There’s no way to spin it in our favor. Hothead ex-cop kills young father over popcorn being thrown at him? Yeah, run Forest, run.
Maybe the spin should be no special carve-outs for cops everytime the politicians pass another insane gun law.
In agreement with Steve in MD….
The “spin” would be HOTHEAD + ex-COP = they’re not any more enlightened than the rest of us peons.
Yep, not a defensive gun use at all. Old man is witnessed by an off duty cop no less to have said, “I’ll teach you!” before shooting the man. And then when his wife said, you didn’t need to do that, he told her to, “Shut the F up!”
This is not a self defense case, but a murder.
That just may be why bail was denied.
Agreed, Scott.
There are lessons to be learned from this about courtesy, consideration of others and self-restraint, but no clear good guy as far as I can see.
Just two jerks who both should have known better, with a tragic ending in the Shakespearean sense.
“If he had just moved to a different seat, we wouldn’t be here today. This would have never happened.”
“If he had just left, we wouldn’t be here today. This would have never happened.”
“If he had not shot the guy. This would have never happened.”
Leaving your weapon in “the car” defeats the whole purpose of being able to protect oneself. Unfortunately, in today’s world, people think you can pretty much say and/or do whatever you want to somebody and get away with it. You know, because we have LAWS. Unfortunately, this young father found out the hard way that one should always be polite and civil.
and yes, I agree with the others, this is a murder, pure and simple that should not have happened.
If shannon watts were there, she would have talked to the old guy to the point he used the gun on himself to stop the voices
“Hi, my name is Shannon Watts….” -BANG-
Don’t defend this murderer.
1
I agree. Both parties share the blame in this case. One paid with his life, and the other will be spending the rest of his days in jail. If anything, it should serve as a lesson on how not to escalate a confrontation. End of story.
That flare launcher looks familiar…
http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/c/c2/BobaFett-StarWars2.jpg/600px-BobaFett-StarWars2.jpg
Ahhhh yes.
Agreed, public awareness of the number of douchebag cops can’t come soon enough.
As for the quote, he’s obviously never heard “Bubba Shot the Jukebox”. It’s entirely possible to retrieve a weapon from your vehicle and then commit a crime.
The retired praetorian may have done just that. Wasn’t it reported that he left the theater briefly?
well I wonder how the theaters are going to spin this one…you know..trailers (and commercials) just ended…sitting there waiting for the move to start and they run that clip where it tells you to stop talking and shut your cell phone off…i wonder if they are going to add in there “or it could mean your life” …wow…Too soon?
Nathanredbeard got it right. Old EX COP should be executed.
Sorry, TTAGers, but this old thing popped into my mind unbidden. From an old marine I used to play cards with a long time ago…
“When ifs and buts are candy and nuts, oh what a merry f&cking Christmas we’ll have.”
The shooter is guilty of homicide, period. The shootee is guilty of a “crime” known in LE as “contempt of cop” which may result in anything from additional charges or an ass-whoopin’ to becoming a PNB (pulseless non-breather) even if it is a retired cop. Old fart was used to “listen and obey” and jumped a few steps in force escalation. Generally, you can go one above your adversary. Gun is way above popcorn throwing or a fist, and “you pick your battles” was something I guess he forgot.
I always thought McGruff was shifty, can’t trust someone who wears a trench coat around kids.
This is what happens when society as a whole loses its manners. One dead, one canned for life. Not surprisingly – The first words out of most peoples mouths these days is F You!
It sounds like if he had only known there was a law against murdering people this never would have happened. Maybe we need signs at GFZs that say “No Murdering” or “Murder Free Zone”?
So is it the state attorney’s position that he wouldn’t have prosecuted the ex-cop if he’d left his firearm in the car and instead stabbed the guy to death, or perhaps fallen back on his cop training and beaten him to death while shouting “stop resisting”?
Thanks for the review of the PT738…haven’t taken mine to the range yet, but will look forward to it.
If the dead man was carrying, he might be alive.
“…the trend towards gun rights inclusivity (a.k.a., diversity).” I’ll believe that when I can go to the range a single time and not hear racist comments. Latest gem: the guy wondering loudly to himself how those slant eyes can hit anything at all in reference to a group of younger asian men at the other end of the range.
It doesn’t make much to let you know you are not welcome to be part of the club.
So the NRA wants to distance itself from its image as a repository for OFWGs. I can certainly agree that the NRA should broaden its appeal to a wider spectrum of America’s citizens.
So what’s wrong with that? It’s the apparent acquiescence to the ‘politically correct’ liberal propagandistas’ portrayal of old (not necessarily fat) white guys as being somehow less than honorable or worthy of respect and deference. That’s horseshit. OFWGs (Old Fu*kin White Guys) have *earned* and maintained their place of respect and honor in the history of America, *way beyond* anything the anti’s and progressives have accomplished or are advocating for the betterment of this country.
Simple minded narcissistic self-centered liberal socialist progressive antis and Democrats forget who it was that built, fought for and advanced this country to the powerhouse it is today; they are anti-American apologists who are doing everything they can to tear those achievements down – all in the name of “progressivism’ which is actually “communism”. Sixty years ago, they’d have all been blacklisted! The NRA best not distance itself from its OFWG base just to appease and appeal to this bunch of leftists.
The NRA *should* offer a wider more current image by modernizing its organization to appeal to a broader range of mainstream citizen customers; go for it, it’s long overdue. It’s called inclusion; but don’t even *think* of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
It’s not a race that built this country; it was an idea. Anyone that believes in individual freedom; that government will neither help no hinder the practice of ones spiritual beliefs; neither helps nor hinders creating ones dreams; that support and defends the constitution and all the enumerated and un-enumerated rights which restricts government power; especially the second amendment.
Then your sexual orientation, your race, your ethnicity nor what you believe as to the existence of a higher power is not the issue; if you are fellow traveler in being a free man or woman, then I call you brother and sister.
Just bought my first Glock, a Gen4 19 on Friday. Living in a slave state I have to wait a week or so before I can pick it up, but have enjoyed the review and comments while I wait.
Clown shoes. Did the guy on the left even try to pull the trigger or is that not part of the game?
OODA loop applies, action beats reaction. They teach police (at least around here) not to get close enough to have their weapon grabbed, they cover the suspect and order them to the ground from a distance, not up close and personal. The local force does a drill very similar to this where the trainee has the ‘suspect’ covered and is told to shoot if the ‘suspect’ goes for his own weapon. Suspect is routinely able to ‘shoot’ the trainee before he can pull the trigger. For an idea of reaction times relative to suspect motion, here’s a pretty good website:
http://www.forcescience.org/demos.html
However, understand the demos are kind of an oranges to apples kind of thing. Even though the police reactions are slower than the perps in the demos, they are actually skewed favorably towards the police. In the real world, they will be even worse for the LEO. This is because the reaction times for perps are based on students who were unfamiliar with firearms going through directed motions- so real perps should be faster. The reaction times for the police were very simple go/no go reactions to lights or buzzers vice a complex assessment of a suspect’s motions- so real LEO reactions should be slower.
But, once you have been doing it for awhile,
you will find that you have most of what you need, and
that you need to pick up the occasional item or two. Although I am focusing on
parents as teachers in this article, all can benefit from reading through this.
Does the machine shift mild and hefty fabric evenly.
In many years of martial arts, I learned disarming techniques and also that no one is faster than a bullet. In the dojo, you get to practice over and over. In real life, there are no do overs. If I had no other way out, sure, I would use them but if someone got the jump on me and was armed, well ….my wallet isn’t worth my life. This isn’t some Jackie Chan movie. If you want to make it out of this situation alive 100% then don’t get into it in the first place ( if it’s possible). Situational awareness is the most important thing in my opinion
You are correct in that no one is faster than a bullet, but done properly, a disarm can be faster than a trigger pull. Disarm is a last ditch technique when there are no other options and you think you are going to get shot.
Well… we used to have a rule in flying, if the aircraft broke three times ( or you had three break in succession trying to get out on a mission), call it a day and hit the bar because the powers that be are telling you it ain’t your day.
The point of training is to improve. Therefore it should be directed towards that goal, yes there is a benefit to learning to power through the bad days, but if you’re in such a place that the training just ain’t giving you any benefits- it’s better to pack it up. You may find yourself actually reinforcing negative habit patterns instead of good ones that you’re striving for.
If you strive to always be consistent, to always be precise and always push your student/partner to be consistent and precise it becomes very easy to figure out that you’re or they’re tired. Because you find yourself/them ‘settling’ for performance that normally wouldn’t be acceptable, being sloppy- fatigue makes one care less and figure- that’s good enough. Now- when you are at that point you do need to decide- can I continue to train or attempt to train to the acceptable precision or not. If I push, will I be training myself (or worse a student) to accept sub-par performance? And in shooting, as in other high risk activities, there are certain procedures which do have to be adhered to every time, where we can’t get sloppy, where we can’t lower the standard.
The advantage to training is that we can in fact control the conditions we can’t in real life. Training when you are tired can be beneficial in teaching you to deal with it. But, it can be dangerous as well. I do agree with the author that you do have to be willing to cancel training when the conditions aren’t supportive of achieving the training objective.
First time out to the range, not one complete cycle. Factory ammo in the three supplied mags, no success.
Different piston settings, no success. A friend who bought his from the same LGS reports the same problems with different types of factory ammo. The forums are swamped with similar complaints. People are being told by Ruger that it’s the mags, “timing”, and a host of other possibilities. Some are getting barrels replaced by Ruger.
Suggest anyone getting ready to buy one, hold off and see how this plays out.
A good book on this subject is the just-published “Negroes and the Gun: The Black Tradition of Arms”, by Dr. Nicholas Johnson. It’s an excellent history.
So Farago what’s the plan here; is the NRA going too tour college campuses tacking up flyers that read “all gay, lesbian, Latino, Asian, visible minority female and otherwise protected and favored people with a readily recognizable ethnic skin tones or easily identifiable homosexual orientation are eligible for a job as an NRA commentator. Debate skills, public speaking ability and stage presence will factor into the hiring decaion unless you bring three or more pre-qualifying factors too the table e.g (white Mexican transsexual Jew) in which case your competancy will not factor inn at all.
Ohhh! So that’s what a mall ninja tacticool playground looks like and how operators operating operate.
look at Canada’s ‘gun control’ bullshit
In fact go here.. bulletin.rightsandfreedoms.org/download/
Get issues 116 and 117 read the two part article by Todd Brown.
Do NOT let this BS happen south of the border!
I love how in all of these videos the ‘attacker’ never has a clue about weapon retention.
There is one factor most people here seem to not take into account. Most small-time crooks don’t really want to pull the trigger and just want the money, car, item. There have been multiple videos posted here of small-time crooks robbing gas stations or small shops that get so close they could whisper sweet nothings into the cashier’s ear while robbing them. In a few videos the defenders would reach for the gun, even touch it or bat it away, and the perp would not fire. As I recall from one of the videos a clerk swatted the pistol multiple times before chasing and tackling the fleeing robber. In the case of rape they definitely would get that close. So yes, a gun at this range does happen and has been caught on tape innumerable times, having a technique to take the gun would help, even if you have no intention to use it you at least take away that leverage they have on you (even if they have no intention to use it either).
Whether the attacker in this scenario was interested in the least about retention I don’t know, but with that kind of speed it might be effective at a time when the guard isn’t so high. I would like to see a few examples of this where there isn’t a 100% success rate, unless this is a magical technique that is 100% effective.
Regarding the trigger reset or lack thereof: J frames don’t have them either and I don’t have any problem with the trigger myself. Is it simply a matter of Foghorn being so used to the short resets of the Glocks? Would he have the same experience if he picked up a tried and true 642 to review?
Grip safeties. How shall I put this? Hmmmm…. I hate the damn things! It was the first feature I learned to hate on a 1911 (others came with experience) and it’s a feature I do not want on a handgun. When I first read about the new R51, it looked good enough for me to think I might grit my teeth and bear the damn thing. Now I see the first issue out of the chute in this review has to do with the grip safety. The gun is no longer a consideration for me.
Disassembly difficulties. I recall my first attempt at field stripping of my original Ruger Standard .22 pistol over 30 years ago. After that experience, I’ve never disassembled it again. Spray it out with brake cleaner and drizzle some oil into it. It keeps on working fine. But the problems encountered during this test is just another reason the R51 is out of consideration.
All I see is one side of an issue.
“Mothers in Charge”… sounds legit…
did you state the r51 was really painful and then two paragraphs later say +p was tame?
It’s relative.
+P is no more painful than regular ammo in this gun. It’s still painful, but not above the baseline.
And this is why I read TTAG. Keep up the great work, guys.
Also, long live the (recalled/fixed) XD(s)!!! 🙂
Great review. It seems like the negatives are mostly items that Remington can address in the next iteration, though I don’t see any way around the takedown process.
On the slide stop, though, this is not the first pistol I have seen where things can go awry during reassembly. The P238/938 and Kimber Solo all have slide stops that need to be inserted correctly in relation to a sprung wire that prevents the stop from catching when the gun cycles. I have never had a problem with it on my P938, but I did F up the reassembly on my wife’s Solo once upon a time. It’s certainly not ideal for a gun marketed to first-time shooters, but it’s also not a deal killer, IMO. As you suggest, a brightly-colored warning tag – and maybe even an engraved warning somewhere on the barrel assembly – would go a long way to address it.
Not on their calendar. Perhaps Czar Barak (Czarina Val) has not informed them yet.
http://constitutioncenter.org/calendar
Another Remington toilet handle…
Ares Armor and Snake Hound Machining, wholly owned subsidiaries of A**holes-R-Us.
Best book on shooting – or any sport really – The Inner Game of Tennis.
No kidding. It works.
Pull the trigger on a live round and the first issue rears its ugly head: the Remington R51 is painful to shoot, even with light loads. The R51′s low bore axis and lighter slide did indeed reduce felt recoil and allowed me to get on target quickly. There was another pleasant surprise: the R51 turned typically painful +P rounds into pussycats. Which is it? Painful or not? Your bruising from slide bite or the pistol smacking back into your hand?
That comparison means that a Dan Wesson ECO which is smaller than a 1911 Commander both in height and length, either in .45 or 9mm, is also smaller that the 51.
http://www.czforum.com/index.php?topic=2492.0
It’s also three times the MSRP but I’d take the ECO in .45 any day, Hard to call that Remington a compact.
Awesome.
This is why we Louden.
Props to Dan for using the TARDIS reference.. 🙂
That being said, yes we agree 1.0 of anything won’t be perfect, then again it takes people willing to buy 1.0 for them to work out the issues. Simply a sad reality of production in our world.
Is the ABA different from the state bars? The ones that handle who can practice law where?
Abbot’s got to be doing the moon walk in the street. She couldn’t sell a “I hate guns sticker” to bloomberg, Randy
I’ve got no problem with private business owners deciding what’s OK and what isn’t on their own property.
Cities and municipalities? Nope. Try again.
HK snob, nuff said, he made sure to let us all know he carries and HK normally.
She’s damn lucky. Lucky for not being prosecuted for not only having a shotgun, but, using it like this inside city limits. Second she’s damn lucky they were not armed and fired back. Because it didn’t sound like, to me, that she was ready to use it to put the robbers down.
What? You can’t come up with your own stuff, you have to steal Ghost Buster lyrics? – “dogs and cats living together, real wrath of God type stuff”.
I’ll bet you thought no one would call you on this.
I helped my wife deliver some package’s at a cops house for Fed Ex. He had two Dobermann Pinchers. I got out and these 2 dogs charged me when I got to his porch and dropped the packages off. They were snarling and showing their teeth. I told myself I wasn’t going to show any fear. I held my hands out, palm up, and kept talking to them until they started wagging their tails. I started petting them and they were ok then the dog owner came out and asked did you just pet my dogs. I said yeah, he said I paid good money for them that they are trained attack dogs and I ruin them. He pulled his gun out and killed both of them. That tells me I ,we need guns to protect me against rogue cops. The cop that I am talking about was full blown pycho. It look like this guy need his gun taken away too.