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Click here to read the Public Safety and Second Amendment Rights Protection Act, the background check bill looking for Senate approval on the Hill. If you don’t have the time, inclination, patience or expertise needed to parse the parcel, know this: the NSSF, NRA, GOA, Virginia Citizens Defense LeagueVolkh Conspiracy and other gun rights types point to serious flaws in the compromise—and reject it wholesale. On the other side, the Second Amendment Foundation and its sister org the Citizens Right to Keep and Bear Arms have rubber-stamped the bill (as it was originally written, with jefe Gottleib’s help). As reports, this one’s going to be a real nail-biter; the Dems promise to wheel in Frank Lautenberg from death’s door for the vote. What’s your opinion: yay or nay?

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    • No thanks.

      Tell me again what’s wrong with our current system? No national reciprocity? Boo-hoo to all of you who live in Blue States (or at least purple ones) who cry for reciprocity from the because you can’t get it from your state. I can go to every state I want to go to and legally carry. We don’t need ATF involvement in our CCW laws.

    • Same here.

      Throw in a 15 year prison sentence for the ATF / AG regarding F&F and I’m all in!

        • Bingo! Buy that man a beer! It is just useless wording. Nobody will ever be prosecuted for starting to register guns. NAY or in layman’s terms…NO Pucking way!

    • I’ll drink to that.
      Also, it would be damn decent if we could either get suppressors of the NFA list, or at least bring it up to 1990’s tech with an online process.

  1. I think pretty highly of Alan Gottlieb, but I have to agree with Dave Kopel on this one. No. Of course, my senators (CO) will vote for anything that smells like gun control.

  2. As important as the Gottlieb/Kopel debate is, I saw something today that over-rides it.

    CTD is for the bill. Therefore, I oppose it to by dying breath. Nay.

  3. Will Toomey suffer for this if he runs for president? Or are memories too short? Romney got away with all sorts of liberal nonsense in his record during the primaries, but I have a feeling the GOP base might be a little less understanding in 2015-16.

    (I think Toomey will not suffer in the next PA senate primary, because he’s already conservative enough on the other questions to satisfy PA Republicans. So his senate seat is his, so long as he can defeat the Democrat.)

    • He is worried about the LT. Gov{dem/female} running against him next time. He is trying to become the re-incarnation of Arlen Specter.

      • He’s completely wrong here, but he’s about a million miles away from Specter. Have you looked at Toomey’s other positions?

        • No, I have not kept up with him, but did read an article this morning in the American Spectator about how Pa. conservatives have been disappointed in his move to the middle to block Attny Gen Kane..I recommend it to you. He seems to follow a pattern I have become more and more familiar with, running to the right in the primary and then to the middle after elected…my two Senators from Georgia are text book examples.

        • Thanks, I’ll take a look at that on the AmSpec’s website. I hope he doesn’t move any further to the left, and you can bet I’ll be watching. But the man has a very solid record in support of cutting back government, protecting the unborn, etc.

        • I was happy he won, just discouraged when I see he is following {perhaps} the same pattern as too many before him…I hope not, for Pennsylvania and our Country, I hope that there will be a few who will stand on principle.

          p.s. I read the article on the internet, so it must be true.

  4. Thanks for posting the text. This confirms all the badness, and I’m STUNNED that a lawyer didn’t notice how poorly written this is. I’m a bloody college dropout and I noticed:

    Transportation is illegal if possession of a firearm illegally constitutes an offense for which you can be imprisoned for up to a year. Also specifies you may only transport by motor vehicle.

    Only bans the AG from creating a registry. There are TONS of other departments more than happy to compile one.

    Uses the dreaded “affects interstate commerce” gotcha in an attempt to reach all firearms sales, and if either the buyer or the seller advertises the sale or their intent to buy in any way it requires a 4473, so if I post in these comments that I want to buy an AR15, and then buy an AR15 in private sale God help me.

    I’m not seeing any positives to this bill. The things being touted as positives are in fact negatives, plus the negatives built into it by intention means this bill is a total debacle and needs to die a swift death. The only “positive” I see is that a CHP/CCW/FOID/whatever acronym your state uses exempts you from the check, but that’s not really a huge deal as at least in VA the check takes 30 minutes typically.

  5. No. There are too many unresolved issues. Kudos to SAF for trying. But YAY on Lautenberg being at death’s door. Somebody, please, open it wide.

    • Ralph, lol, you’ve been on fire recently, you gotta start a 2A comedy hour or something, haha!

    • DiFi is up there in age, too. I so look forward to visiting N.Cal, going to the cemetery with a 40 oz of Malt Liquor, pounding the beer and then pissing on her grave. twice.

      • I’m very impressed with your ability to retain fluids, DD. If you had my prostate, a 40 oz would be good for at least a half dozen whizzes.

      • San Francisco isn’t in “northern California.” North California starts at about Ukiah or Sacramento and goes up past Medford.

        • Funny stuff right there. Reminds me of 4 months ago around here. Too much dagger, not enough joke has been necessary lately, which is a shame.

  6. Back to back postings on this same subject? Is it a slow day? When I get back from work today will there be a further dozen on this Manchin-Toomey thing?

  7. We don’t have what we want now, this doesn’t really give it to us, plus it has problems of its own. So, no. Or I suppose to keep with the theme here, Nay. (Shouldn’t it be Nea?)

    • There is no way reciprocity will pass on its own. There may be enough votes to barely defeat this bill, but there are no where enough votes to affirmatively pass anything.

  8. If there was some actual compromise in there… Maybe. Sadly it looks like “compromise” now means giving the other side 90% of what they want with nothin in exchange. Compromise, they keep using that word. I don’t think it meanst what they think it does.

  9. Not just No.

    But, F#@K NO!

    “Shall Not Be Infringed”




  10. SAF member, love Gottlieb, but NAY. (I was a YEA on Saturday. Kopel talked me off the ledge.) Too much room for mischief.

    We don’t need more gun laws, we need more people with guns.

  11. NAY! Unless national carry reciprocity was a 100% A-ok. And even then, this bill SUCKS!

  12. If the drafting is cleaned up, and the criticisms Dave Kopel @ Volokh makes are addressed, maybe.

    As is, hell no.

  13. NAY and HELL NAY!!! I ain’t sittin’ with my back to the door, and I ain’t backin’ up any more.

  14. Nay. Good thing SAF is self funded through lawsuit wins. I don’t see donations increasing with this stance.

  15. The word of the day is “Nay”. I will work to defeat anyone who votes other than nay on any legislation restricting any of my rights from now on.

    Not one inch more of “compromise.” I don’t trust anybody in the Senate (except maybe, cautiously Ted Cruz and Rand Paul) .

    Definition of NAY

    : denial, refusal
    a : a negative reply or vote
    b : one who votes no

  16. Given it’s just the senate version, and the house would have a chance to add more liberty, tentative yay.

  17. Per the 2nd and 10th amendments, the Federal government can make no laws regarding the purchase or possession of firearms.


    Repealing the garbage on the books is the way to go.

  18. Yay, IF they fix the language to address Kopel’s concerns AND we get something else, like national right to carry. Otherwise, nay.

  19. NAY

    I read the bill and feel like I have lost IQ points in the process. Did anyone else notice that “Instant” now means variably between 24 hours to 180 days if you get mistakenly prohibited while you run through the appeals process? In addition, the “Secretary” can arbitrarily change what constitutes “mentally incompetent” without restriction.

    Since the other side likes “compromise” I suggest that we ask for the repeal on silencers, SBRs/SBSs and AOWs in addition to national reciprocity.

  20. Nay, but I think you could turn something like this into a net positive with the right modifications, additions, and subtractions.

    • Waffling. For Californians, it would mean the death of the hated Safe Handgun Roster (for Massachusetts too) since it allows handgun purchases outside one’s state of residence. That alone would be HUGE.
      It would also eliminate the residency requirements imposed for purchases, and may mean the end of the Handgun Safety Certificate (which isn’t terribly onerous, but is a pain in the ass–although it is true that our Legislature is trying to “fix” that too). Other than that, the bill offers nothing except maybe for vets. California has its own version of FOPA. And we have universal registration already that is more inclusive than that in this bill.
      The future of this bill is clouded. DiFi will move to attach her AR ban. Toomey will move to add reciprocity. DiFi’s amendment will likely be voted down, reciprocity unknown. But without reciprocity, I think this bill is a non-starter in the House.

  21. No, a thousand times, NO!

    If I get off work Saturday morning and come to find that this morass of legislation came to pass in the middle of the night I’ll see to it to my dying day that my Senator never finds gainful employment again, and is never welcome in my State again. He (and she) can go live in NY with the Clintons and all the rest of their kind for all I care. It may be terribly unfair for him because he wasn’t one of the 16 turncoats, but without liberty and freedom, democracy just doesn’t mean a damn thing.

      • Holy God! If you are willing to give up liberty for a little perceived security, you deserve neither. -Ben Franklin. I can’t believe so many gun owners are willing to give up their liberty. I guess there could just be a bunch of HuffPo progressives here pretending to be gun owners.

  22. I’ve been of the opinion that without some kind of background checks bill passing this year, 2014 and 2016 will be nothing but trouble. But then, no-compromise has worked for many years, so one has to be careful any time one feels that maybe now is the time when it has become counterproductive.

    So, I remain hopelessly confused. One thing for sure, if some bill does pass, those who know how to scour bills for unintended consequences better be satisfied with it first.

  23. No thank you, I’ll pass on it. I think we’ve compromised enough with them (too much, even). Obviously, they want to make the entire country resemble Chicago and their laws don’t even work in that horrible city so I say we resist them at every turn. I see no reason to let the camel’s nose into the tent.

    The SAF.may honestly believe that this compromise will be the end of it, “if we give them this then surely Schumer and Feinstein will be satisfied, right?” But it doesn’t work like that and they won’t be satisfied because it is not in their nature. The Schumers and Feinsteins of the world will ask for something more, “we must close the family-exemption loophole.” Because that’ll prevent junior from accidentally shooting his sister or the neighbor’s kid. They’ll demand handguns with only the capacity to hold five rounds because who needs six? They’ll demand that HOAs pass by-laws banning firearms in order to keep their LEO patrols (for officer safety). There will always be something more, one more law or compromise, for them to crusade for.

    Give them nothing because they’ll want everything!

  24. There should NEVER be a compromise! If we start expect to compromise on every other right we have.

  25. Absolutely not. No compromise. I will only accept the status quo or less restrictions, never any compromise.

    • Exactly right. This is a must read for all those thinking that this compromise is a good deal for gun owners.

  26. Nay. “Compromise” implies we get something in return, but Manchin-Toomey gives us nothing.

  27. Nay.

    If they absolutely MUST have something akin to universal background checks then they should put forward a purchase permit system like Minnesota has for handguns.

    No registration, no record-keeping, and no trying to force all firearm sales to go thru FFL dealers that must answer to the ATF.

  28. I’ll take the risk of going against “Common Sense” and vote:
    don’t know how many more ways to say it…………….

  29. From the Heritage Foundation article @ The Foundry: ” The Schumer-Toomey-Manchin (STM) bill facilitates undercover sting operations at gun shows to arrest people for conduct they have no reason to believe is against the law. The STM bill lets the Justice Department send people at gun shows to jail for up to five years for a crime they did not even know was a crime…..Congress has made gun laws so complex that even the well-meaning, law-abiding citizen who owns firearms will have a hard time learning about and complying with every firearms law and regulation on the books…..Prosecutors love this kind of statute, because it makes their lives easy. They don’t have to prove you knew you were breaking the law.”

    Ahhh, I vote no.

    • What’s so hard to understand about “no background check, no sale.” An ffl will run the checks, not the hoi polio.

  30. Before jumping completely on the Nay Wagon remember that what we got now is not so good either. This gives us a chance to gain both the Travel and Ban on a Registry items among some others BUT – as I’ve said previously – the bill is only acceptable with some changes and thanks to Kopel for pointing them out. If it doesn’t get these changes than it’s definitely no. Take care of it in the House? – I dunno.

    It may fail anyway if the Reciprocal Rider is tacked on. As desirable as it would be, there is simply no way that’s gonna pass a Democrat Senate at this time and even if it somehow gets through Obama will veto it.

  31. Nay. The one change to firearms law which could effect situations like Newtown isn’t even being considered: repeal of the GFSZA.

    I am also tired of all this ‘gang’ activity in our Senate rushing error-filled bills to the floor. We used to have a nice, painfully slow system of hearings at multiple committee and sub-committee levels.

  32. Remember, citizen disarmament is their ultimate goal. Their strategy is to drive a wedge between different pro-gun interests to enable further laws, bans, restrictions. I say no, I’m not going to drink their koolaid no matter how much sugar you put in it or what color it is.

  33. tentative yay. while i am generally opposed to further erosion, I am even more opposed to giving Bloomberg an issue to exploit in 2014. He will campaign on universal background checks (and its hard to defend unfettered access to guns by the felons and mentally ill) and then use that victory to claim a mandate and push for even further, more onerous provisions. let him campaign on the far less popular stuff like rifle bans. Complete obstruction is a losers game, the dems may pick up some anti-gun seats as a result, which is an even worse outcome.

    While Kopel raises some good points, the protections in the M-T amendment do not exist now. Sure, there are some potential loopholes, but those issues exist now even without the bill. Kopel’s complaint comes down to allowing the perfect be the enemy of the good. Perhaps with some wordsmithing and some additional clarification, the draft can be tightened up. And – we always have the house which will amend this further.

    • I too think that some form of universal background check is pretty much inevitable. Yes the House can probably block it, but legislative obstructionism will not go over very well. I think that the Republican leadership in the Senate has already determined that a bill will have to get an up or down vote, which is why they crushed the Paul insurrectionist filibuster movement.

    • “and its hard to defend unfettered access to guns by the felons and mentally ill”

      You find it hard to defend free markets to free people? Do you find it hard to defend unfettered access to knives and clubs to felons and mentally ill? Shit, we might as well give up now! Everyday I see the further erosion of our country by those who’ve attended the public education system.

        • I don’t care if felons, who have served their time, are living next to me with firearms. How would I know if they are or not? All I need to worry about is my freedom. As long as I have the freedom to defend my life, I don’t really care who has what. “If it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket, it is of no matter to me.” -Thomas Jefferson

      • why would anyone be in favor of giving felons unfettered access to guns, especially if they live in my neighborhood ?

        seems to me that the NRA is trapped by its own rhetoric here. If there are not that many private sales and the 40% number is grossly exaggerated, then UBC is but a minor inconvenience for a handful of people. Sounds like they will make an exception for people who live in remote areas. The gun-grabber comeback will be “well if people are not doing it, there is no harm in closing this exception for private sales.”

        On the other hand, if there are LOTS of private sales and the 40% number is correct, then lots of people will want to tighten this up. Very few people support felons with guns. Personally, if i see a felon with a gun i either turn them in or if they are threatening me, shoot them. The polling on this is 95+% for making sure felons dont get guns, and i am pretty sure that the 5% are, well, the felons.

  34. Just another attempt at useless harassment of the law abiding citizen and another step to limiting the rights under the 2nd Amendment.

  35. Toomey/Manchin, along with all other so-called universal background check proposals, makes it a federal felony to transfer a firearm to anyone other than a federally licensed dealer. Toomey/Manchin also specifically prohibits “any provision placing a cap on the fee licensees may charge to facilitate transfers,” which means that dealers can charge whatever their local market will bear. In areas without dense concentrations of FFLs, these fees could easily be higher than the value of the firearm transferred.

    Yes, there are some exclusions for family members and for face-to-face transfers between close friends. But the combined effects of the Toomey/Manchin amendment are clear: the secondary firearms market as we know it today will cease to exist.

    Federal gun dealer licenses are privileges granted by the ATF. As such, the President and the Attorney General can directly control the population of licensees in any particular geographical area. Also, many states and localities have successfully employed restrictive zoning regulations to prohibit gun dealers from locating anywhere in their major metropolitan areas. So few areas remain today where a true free market in licensed dealers exists.

    If Toomey/Manchin or similar passes, federally licensed gun dealers will become the only legal buyers for almost all guns. Because they will be free to charge whatever fees their local market will bear, gun dealers will obtain cartel pricing power over the secondary gun market.

    This is not what most gun owners — or most Americans — imagine when told that “90% support universal background checks.” But it is the reality that will face all of us if we do not act soon.

    • Nay – for many of the reasons already expressed. One of my senators agrees, the other (McCain) needs some direction.

  36. Will it have a measurable impact on violent crime?

    Had this law been instated sufficiently prior to Newtown, would it have stopped said tragedy?

    Since we all know the answer to these questions is an unequivocal “NO”, I default to rejecting the Manchin-Toomey compromise on logic and principle. It is a smokescreen. It is a feel-good maneuver meant to placate a gullible populace.

  37. NAY!
    SAF got an email from me today and will get a phone call demanding refund of my newly paid lifetime membership.

  38. Not as written, given the loopholes already identified,

    However, if those were fixed, and background checks waived for anyone with a current pistol or CCW permit as well as automatic CCW reciprocity, it would be a reasonable compromise.

  39. Unless the universal background checks are “voluntary” meaning private sales can be given NCIS access voluntary, alongside national CCW reciprocity, then nay.

  40. At least it’s the first time Compromise has been put on the table.

    Still Nay, but it’s a step in the right direction.

  41. “the Dems promise to wheel in Frank Lautenberg from death’s door for the vote. What’s your opinion: yay or nay?”

    That right there should tell you everything you need to know…the Dems are simply not going to support a bill that truly preserves your 2nd amendment rights…full stop. This jacked-up mess of a bill can and will be used against you.

    Big NAY!

  42. As much as I want to say yes.
    I have to say NAY!!!!!!
    Still too much gray area on private sales to make me comfortable.
    Fix it 1st not after the vote………

  43. NAY! A future COTUS could Amend/Change the Bill for the worse. We already have the Brady Bill and it’s not working. It does nothing to fix “The Mental Health Loophole”. It’s just a gateway to more onerous Legislation. Enforce existing Laws rigorously or repeal the ones the Fed does not want to bother with. Put armed guards at the Public Schools. Our children deserve to be protected more vigorously than even our Money, Court Buildings, Airports, Mayor Bloomberg, Left-tard Movie Stars and all the other people and things we use Armed Force to protect. WHAT the Hell is wrong with the Federal and State Governments that they cannot or will not mandate effective protection for our children?

  44. Major Negatory, cap’n.

    By now, you’ve seen Alan Korwin’s post on the matter…

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