Question of the Day: Was That Last Shot Really Necessary? Crime and Punishment by Robert Farago | Apr 07, 2012 | 47 comments facebook twitter linkedin email [h/t Bryan] comments traye says: April 7, 2012 at 08:09 When you start a chain of events you are responsible for everything in that chain. Rob somebody, then when they (or the police in this case) shoot you a lot = yo fault. The officer is obviously freaked out, the perp scared him and he got what he got. Reply Boschiero says: April 7, 2012 at 08:10 Here in Brazil that’s the situation. Unstable frustrated policemen and inefficient and soft justice. There are two hypothesis for why he acted this way: 1- By stress 2- He’s one of the thousands of policemen who prefer to see a dead criminal to see one more free criminal. Reply Tom says: April 7, 2012 at 08:15 If I was the cop, I might have shot the BG at about 0:51 to :58 when the BG was going back to the hostage. I am assuming this happened in Sao Paulo Brazil and these people are speaking Portugese. I think the necessity of the last couple of shots by the cop gets iffy. I really do not have much empathy towards the BG. The news reporter is hot. Reply cz82mak says: April 7, 2012 at 08:18 I don’t see a problem here. Reply TTACer says: April 7, 2012 at 08:24 A little hard to follow the way the video was cut. If anyone speaks Portuguese I would be curious to know what they were saying. From what I could tell though, the perp was still moving and I didn’t see where his gun went. That would be a perfectly legitimate reason to keep shooting. Reply Van says: April 7, 2012 at 08:42 Agreed. From that officer’s perspective the perp had fallen behind the counter and he probably could not see if he still had the gun. Reply Corkis says: April 7, 2012 at 11:24 The report said the hotel manager told the officer that the robber still had the revolver. He seemed to have had it out after the manager was able to run away. It looks like he dropped it between the third and fourth shot. Reply Michael says: April 7, 2012 at 09:36 Bad Guy’s wearing a hoodie… I’m just saying. 🙂 Reply mp says: April 7, 2012 at 10:11 Bah! beat me to it. Reply IdahoPete says: April 7, 2012 at 12:18 Oh sure, blame the hoodie …. And you have to wonder – what caliber was that? 9mm FMJs? Sure seemed to take a lot of shots to “stop” the BG. (“Stop” in this context meaning “stop him from twitching”.) Reply Don says: April 7, 2012 at 10:09 The policeman had the counter in his line of sight blocking a good view. I don’t fault him for not sticking his head farther over to see better while the perp still had a gun and his hands were moving around. If the perp was still functioning he could have shot the cop through the counter, so the threat was still real from the cop’s point of view. The only way to know would be to have a camera looking from his perspective in front of the counter. Reply Matt in FL says: April 7, 2012 at 10:50 I had to watch it several times to figure out how many times he pulled the trigger, because he was flinching so badly. Counting was also made more difficult due to how the frame rate of the camera hid the flash from some of the shots. I’m curious about two things, and if anyone else saw them: First, it looked to me an awful lot like his first trigger pull, at 05:34:38, was with the safety on. It looks like he thrusts the gun forward and attempts to pull the trigger, then sweeps the safety off with his left thumb. Second, it looked like after he finally loosed the first round, at 34:39, that there was an involuntary, flinch driven second shot. There was no muzzle flash, due to the aforementioned frame rate issue, but it sure looked to me like the gun recoiled twice in quick succession. After that it was shot (flash, :41), shot (no flash, :43), shot (flash, :46), shot (no flash, :48). That makes five rounds for sure, six if I’m right about the flinch second shot. I don’t see any room for criticism on any of them, really. Reply Jeff Stevens says: April 7, 2012 at 11:01 Was That Last Shot Really Necessary? Yes. Reply Jamie in ND says: April 7, 2012 at 11:03 If the bastard is still moving keep shooting till he isn’t. Reply KWAL says: April 7, 2012 at 11:50 Yes Reply Joseph says: April 7, 2012 at 11:57 If he still had ammo, why not keep shooting? One less turd to put innocents lives in danger. If you commit an armed robbery and break out in holes…who cares how many holes it is? Reply jkp says: April 7, 2012 at 12:42 It’s funny how newscasters SOUND the same, regardless of which language they’re using. Reply ST says: April 7, 2012 at 13:03 Yes. From this angle , with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight and media playback, its clear to me the shot scumbag looked as if he was about to pull a COD “Last Stand” tactic with a holdout piece. Reply JOE MATAFOME says: April 7, 2012 at 13:03 TTAC makes an excellent point because the perp never stops moving(well he eventually stopped) even after being shot several times. There’s no way the officer can see if he’s still holding the gun and he keeps shooting until the threat stops being a threat. No one should keep shooting after the BG has been stopped, but that’s not the case in this video. The cops also lucky the BG didn’t just shoot him during the standoff. Reply "Dr."Dave says: April 7, 2012 at 13:07 There is no such thing as over kill when your life is in danger. Theres just open fire, and reload. Reply Josh says: April 7, 2012 at 13:16 His grip on the pistol didn’t look quite right… Reply Ralph says: April 7, 2012 at 13:33 Is this an actual video, or a Taurus commercial? Reply CarlosT says: April 7, 2012 at 13:33 Note: Military police do a lot of what we think of regular policing here. Also note: It’s been a long while since I’ve been back, so my Portuguese is a little rusty, so if anyone wants to improve this, please feel free. This starts at around 13 seconds in. ANCHOR: Security cameras capture the moment in which a military policeman kills an assailant in a hotel in the middle of São Paulo. REPORTER: In the lobby of this hotel in the Praça da Sé in the central region of São Paulo, only one worker is taking care of reception. Now look, the man who comes up the stairs is an assailant. He was [can’t make this out] but you can see the bandit’s face. He intimidates the worker and shows a weapon. He demands that the victim go behind the counter and open the register. In moments, the criminal takes all the money and makes threats, only as he descends the stairs to leave the hotel, he’s surpised by the arrival military policeman. The assailant then goes back to the worker while the MP announces his arrest. The bandit tries to control the receptionist, only ends up trapped by the hostage. The concern of the victim and the policeman is to prevent the man from getting the revolver. Suddenly, the worker is able to get out of the policeman’s line of fire. It’s in this moment that the bandit is hit with at least four shots. The criminal falls and dies right there in the hotel reception. Grazed in the arm, the victim goes running. See again the moment in which the policemen shoots the criminal to secure the freedom of the hostage. Reply Michael B. says: April 7, 2012 at 13:46 Yeah, the perp still had his weapon in his hand and continued to remain a threat. Reply Lingo Johnson says: April 7, 2012 at 13:57 Yeah, it was. This website seems to be taking a hard bank left in the commentary lately? Reply BlinkyPete says: April 7, 2012 at 14:24 That was a very well thought out and coherent argument against the authors position. Well done. Reply Ralph says: April 7, 2012 at 14:59 Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Like you, Blinky Pete, I didn’t notice the OP taking any position, just asking a question. Reply BlinkyPete says: April 7, 2012 at 14:23 I’m not quite sure I understand what happened here, but I feel that hired security/cops should only shoot until the threat has passed. Based on my potentially erroneous understanding of what happened here, the bad guy was on the floor, the hostage was safe and the guard had a superior vantage point. I dunno… seemed like maybe a little much. Also seemed like the hits didn’t have the immediate and desired effect, perhaps the DGU’r should have acquired some of those evil JHP ‘cop killers’. Reply racer88 says: April 7, 2012 at 14:55 perhaps the DGU’r should have acquired some of those evil JHP ‘cop killers’. It’s NOTORIOUS hollow point cop killers. Let’s keep our terminology straight! 😉 Reply liquidflorian says: April 8, 2012 at 00:24 Was that a rent-a-cop? I thought the newscaster said “Carabinieri”, so I thought it was an Italian LEO. Reply CarlosT says: April 8, 2012 at 00:53 No, he’s military police. They do a lot of the policing in Brazil. Reply CarlosT says: April 7, 2012 at 15:17 By the way, if anyone out there didn’t know, this is yet another demonstration of the failure of gun control. Brazilians had their gun rights pretty much legislated out of existence in 2003, leaving the civilian population with no right to carry firearms in public and a severely restricted right to have firearms in the home. Gun crimes are more of a problem than ever, of course, and this kind of event is newsworthy because most of the time the criminal gets away and a lot of the time the clerk would get shot even though the criminal got the money. I just recently stumbled upon the Facebook page of the movement that’s trying to restore gun rights in Brazil, because my uncle likes their stuff so it comes through to me. I have no idea how they’re doing in terms of political or public support, but it was interesting to see. Reply Ricardo Campos says: April 7, 2012 at 16:40 Yes, maybe not in the USA but in Brazil it was. I’m from Sao Paulo-Brazil and here bad guys do not have recuperation. We have a prison system failed. Reply CarlosT says: April 7, 2012 at 17:03 Ricardo, have you heard of the Campanha do Armamento? If so, what kind of support do they have with the people? Reply Ricardo Campos says: April 8, 2012 at 18:44 Yes I heard. But unfortunately in Brazil groups that support gun owners, are very small and with no political power. Here it is very difficult to have weapons, but it is not impossible. Now we can consider it funny, because the only caliber allowed for civilians is .380 or .38 Special. I subscribe to the MVB – Moviento Viva Brasil (http://www.mvb.org.br/) What does a great job here. Reply ceray says: April 7, 2012 at 16:58 That it. I knew he was a BG as soon as I saw his hoodie. Reply Johnny says: April 7, 2012 at 18:00 Personally, I feel it was a bit much. The guy was already shot 2-3 times and on the floor and wasn’t a threat to anyone. The hostage was safe and the cop was watching him like a hawk. I think he was correct to shoot him in the first place, I think that was justified. the guy probably was on an adrenaline rush and just kept firing. Reply Steve says: April 7, 2012 at 20:18 Hard to say exactly what happened in the video. My general rule of thumb. If the gun comes out, Its ON. I will shoot until the bad guy is no longer a threat. But getting back to the video. I dunno. I guess the perp could have been fumbling for a weapon…but it looked a lot more like he was trying to plug the holes in his perforated chest. But, I say that from the safety of the Internets. Reply Dyspeptic Gunsmith says: April 7, 2012 at 20:52 1. This happened in Brazil, not the US. You’ve been showing recently that you’re not fully aware of the laws and policies concerning lethal force in the US, and now you’ve decided to start commenting about shootings outside the US… based on what? 2. From my reading of the situation in Brazil, they have a prison system that is teetering on complete failure and collapse. It is vastly over-crowded, gangs behind bars effect kidnappings, murders and extortion rackets on people outside the prisons with near impunity, and the prison population keeps going up. These conditions could very well precipitate an attitude of “if you catch them in the act, don’t let them get as far as prison,” as we see here in this video. I have read that the Brazilian prisons have turned their criminal justice system “inside out.” Instead of being a place where criminals are sent for punishment and reform, prisons in Brazil have become post-graduate schools for criminals to further their skills and effect. In a situation like that, yes, I can absolutely understand a bias towards making sure a criminal caught in the act is shot dead. 3. None of us safely ensconced here in the US have any notion of who the perp was, whether he was notorious, a known killer, had done this before, etc. There have been situations in the US where criminals were killed with malice of forethought. Bonnie and Clyde come to mind. When they were taken down, the armament Hamer & crew used against them makes it abundantly clear that there was never any intention of “apprehending” the two criminals. It was a straight out killin’ because they needed killin’. Reply CarlosT says: April 7, 2012 at 21:27 Actually, another report I saw about this said that the perp had had run ins with the police before, but they weren’t specific about the details. Reply Mark N. says: April 7, 2012 at 22:47 I am not so sure that last shot hit anything. This rent-a-cop seemed afraid of his own gun AND the BG–did you see him jump every time he pulled the trigger? Reply CarlosT says: April 7, 2012 at 22:54 Not a rent-a-cop. He’s an actual, real police officer. Actually military police, which does a lot of regular day to day policing in Brazil. Sadly, he’s one of the few legally permitted to carry a gun in public. Reply JGlanton says: April 8, 2012 at 01:47 The cop acted like he had too much gun for his little arms. He seem scared of his gun every time it went off, and acted like he didn’t want to pull the trigger every time he did. Reply Alex says: April 8, 2012 at 20:09 It really looks to me like he pulls the trigger, THEN disengages the safety, then fires for the first time. Doesn’t seem like this guy is comfortable with his weapon in the slightest. Reply JR says: April 8, 2012 at 21:16 +1 Reply Leo says: April 9, 2012 at 18:56 The training the police gets in Brazil is much less efficient than you can imagine , they do not know even how to hold their guns properly, Ive seen members of the BOPE witch are the equivalent of a SWAT team in Rio de Janeiro shooting an AR15 without supporting the stock on his shoulder, take a look at this video im posting the link below, forward to minute 2:08 and check out this slow motion footage, the policeman is shooting with one hand and the round goes way low in the ground, these people sometimes manage to shoot each other but “lord” it never goes where they wanted to! http://youtu.be/bXm5Ue5G4E4 Another thought about the video originally posted is that since the corruption is so out of control the cop better make sure the BG is dead because the criminals over there are know for coming back to retaliate against the cop and the clerk if the robbery is not successful. Basically Brazil is a sh1t show, I can say that specially because I am Brazilian… Reply Volkho Mashchenko says: April 21, 2012 at 21:56 in the video that you posted I can see at least 10 errors! and I don’t know how the hostage survived! And from the video of the post, the last shot was necessary, because you can see that after 4 shots the robber still shooting the revolver. The policeman pistol appears to be a Taurus 24/7 in .45, so this guy had lucky to survive after so much shots, and the policeman the lucky to don’t shot accidentally the hostage or being shot by the robber! The video that Leo posted is almost surreal, how can a SWAT team be so unprepared as they? who here want to watch a FIFA World Cup in a place that you can be hijacked and the cops may kill you before the bandits? common… Reply Write a Comment Cancel replyYour email address will not be published. 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