“Law enforcement personnel, including campus security, are allowed to carry firearms, and they are highly trained in their use,” Montana’s missoulian.com asserts, carving out cops from their opposition to campus carry. “But when responding to a call for help, how are they to tell the difference between the bad guy and the victim when both are pointing guns at each other?” It’s the same old question that comes up any time . . .
a gun control advocate advocates against Americans exercising their natural, civil and Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. To be fair, there’ve been a number of high-profile “blue-on-blue” shootings proving that some cops can’t even tell who the cops are, never mind “a good guy with a gun.” Does the prospect of being shot by a cop worry you as much as it worries the antis?
I’m not worried, because cops are so highly trained in the use of force.
Mwahahahahahahahahah! Damn, that was funny.
Sounds like Ralph is asking for a demonstration?
Seriously though, some cops scare me when I’m in uniform. They scare me more when I’m not.
With that being said, I’m pretty stoked that I can call a miss a “warning shot.” It might be tough to explain 15-20 warning shots, but I’m sure it’s nothing that a little creative writing couldn’t fix.
Just talk to your union, I’m sure they have something on file for that.
Police your brass and STFU.
I’m not real worried because I don’t do things that would put me crossways with a cop. However, in the event I do have an encounter and one or more cops are pointing their weapons at me, you bet I would be worried about being shot. They may be highly trained in the use of their weapons, but I have to ask myself, (1) did they pay attention in their training, (2) do they practice often good weapon control, (3) are they themselves under control of themselves? Lets face it, anyone with a weapon on me would make me very nervous, just a nervous as a cop who has a weapon drawn on him. Anything can go wrong, and some cops are known to have itchy trigger fingers judging from the stories I read on TheTruthAboutGuns.
Has this scenario happened ever?
Anyway, I’d rather be in a hypothetical Mexican standoff with a perp than be without my gun because I would’ve presumably been dead by then. Regardless, if a guy is pointing a gun at me and I decide to clear leather, I’m not doing it to just point it at him. What they’re describing is movie logic.
In a real world attack there won’t be a good guy and a bad guy standing there pointing guns at each other when police arrive. Why? Because the good guy would have been firing and the bad guy would have run away … and the good guy might very well have extricated themselves from the scene as well.
(Pro-tip: do NOT stand around an unsecured location where a bad guy just compelled you to use deadly force — the bad guy could be regrouping or getting reinforcements.)
They’re only talking about campus carry, they used the same argument (in every state) when CC itself was being discussed. It didn’t happen, was a false flag question and now they KNOW it is. Now they should have the local police train them to not shoot good guys, since they are not having a problem.
Yes, but I’d rather take that risk and not be helpless. From a broader standpoint, I actually fear cops more than I fear criminals. If a criminal kills me, at least I can count on him being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And yes, I would absolutely open fire on a cop who was wrongly trying to hurt me.
Thats the issue at least with a criminal you know what you got. The police are a different story sometimes they just criminals with a badge and a get out of jail free card.
I was having trouble finding the words to say it and you did it for me.
And that ladies and gentlemen is the truth. At least the bad guy will be prosecuted. The officer will find some way to be justified. No matter what.
Aren’t you dead either way? To me it doesn’t matter what happens to my killer because the damage will already have been done. I would rather face a criminal than a cop because most criminals aren’t wearing body armor.
That is true . I used to catch hell on the range in the army because all i would shoot is head and neck shots when i practice now same thing. Once you pull it out it is You or them. Like the other guy says the police will justify anything they could kill baby seals with baseball bats studded with nails and get away with it because “they were afraid for their lives” i think if i hear that line again i will vomit. I also see that their new gag is accusing people of trying to grab their gun that an easy way to get o shoot people and since the other police will lie for them it is an easy call
Officer safety. Cops shoot both guys with guns and the dog when it barks at the cop. + Instant paid vacation 😉
Win Win Win
To Anti’s cops are highly trained individuals that don’t make mistakes and are there to help you.
In New York City, you only have to be worried about being shot by a cop if you’re a bystander.
“Does the prospect of being shot by a cop worry you as much as it worries the antis?” No, then again I am rural and know several State Troopers and sheriff deputies.
This is true for me as well. I have no fear of being shot by LE in my area. Hell, I have family in the local police and the sheriffs dept. I don’t know if there is any real evidence for it, but I am very wary of city cops. Not so much rural cops. Maybe it’s just because I grew up in a town of 350….
Of course, if you just behave yourself and treat officers with respect, then you likely won’t have a problem anyway
The other day I heard one police officer say to another. . .
“Why are you hasseling me pig?”
I personally would pay cash to watch a taser duel.
The odds of them being there during or right after a DGU are pretty slim, so I do not worry about a cop shooting me. I will have my pistol holstered as soon as I see it is safe enough just in case.
Yep. If it were an incident I’m involved in (assuming my jurisdiction ever achieves enlightenment and goes to shall-issue)
I’m more worried about being shot by a cop as an innocent bystander to some incident. Even that isn’t very likely and the worry doesn’t interfere with my life.
Why are they complaining about that possibility? If a cop shot a CCWer, it would in all likelihood be a conservative white male getting shot. Wouldn’t that make these folks happy? What’s the problem?
Every CCW holder I know is a conservative white male, whether in CA or WI. Trippy. I’m trying to get my wife to go to a CCW class.
Two out of three.
Not worried. Probability of being a defensive gun use is very low, and if I am, it’s highly doubtful it would be a Mexican standoff situation by time the police show up.
A similar question is , how many cops will get shot if the Police Task Force has its way and
discontinues the ( Immigrant Offender Database ) …part of the N.C.I.C ??? It is bad enough that illegals kill and maim by drunk driving . Some very bad players are coming into the country , but it is hard to sign up 5-20 million new democrat voters with free benefits if they show a problem on I.C.E. / D.H.S lookup. This may make cops MORE jumpy !!!
Story 3/3/15 @ http://www.freerepublic.com .
Thats what im thinkin… Either ill be on the ground bleeding or the other guy will be. If i hear shots and dont see the gunman ill be getting the hell out of there.
Highly trained? How high is high? I’d be willing to bet the folks at The Missoulian don’t know and are merely assuming that the uniform = “highly trained”. I do agree, tho, it will certainly be easier for the cops to sort things out when it’s just a dead unarmed victim on the scene instead of a bad guy and an armed non-victim.
Yeah, before I retired from the USAF I knew some military cops who were quite cocky about their training. Turns out that at the time I was shooting more in a month than they shot all year. (I would note, though, that I didn’t have access to a M60 or M2)
I call BS. These people use the same reasoning for punishing the victims of bully attacks in public schools when they victim refuses to be a victim and fights back. The result? The only way a good kid in school can avoid becoming a bad kid is to let himself get beat up. And that is how they train kids to be victims into adulthood.
For the record, I told a school principal (much to her shock) that if my son ever got suspended for defending himself he would being on his PS2 all day. I said I’d rather he come home with bruised knuckles than a broken jaw. (my son earned his 2nd degree black belt when he was 11. Nobody ever tried to get one over on him more than once)
In the mind of Antis the only good guy is the dead guy on the floor, or the rape victim in the hospital. There is no such thing as a good guy/girl if they refuse to be a victim for their stats book.
I told my kid if he’s ever attacked he is to defend himself. If he gets suspended for that, I’ll be taking it up with the school administration and he’ll be going to Dismal Land or some other amusement park while he’s on suspension.
PS2? Thats just mean, even the lower brazillian middle class can afford PS3s now.
Im not worried, the cops will take so long to show up the situation will be resolved long before they get there.
Unless you’re in a 15 minute firefight with a bad guy I don’t think anyone would be afraid.
You should think about what to do with your weapon after using it defensively, but in the moment your last worry should be getting shot by a cop.
I agree. And I also think it depends on where you live. So many law-abiding citizens in my area have CCWs and firearms that officers expect it. It’s probably different in the Northeast, outside of Vermont/PA.
That brings up the second point. As long as you’re the first one to call 911 after the threat is neutralized, the cops should understand that a defensive shooting took place.
Wow, must be a cop on every corner in Missoula.
And I’m not worried about being shot by a cop in my area. My (ahem) “background” pretty much assures I am the victim in such a situation.
Yes, because cops are government thugs who dispense violence for their politician masters.
So ideally the cops get there and it’s easy to tell who the bad guy is because the good guy has already been shot dead?? Reality has shown that, if good guys are armed when the cops get there the bad guy is dead and the guy with the gun is the good guy. Therefore this argument supports the fact that an armed good guy is preferrable to a dead one.
No, not generally. But whenever I have the unfortunate circumstance of interacting with law enforcers… then, yes… I’m very wary of being shot.
Given the general marksmanship level shown by the average cop, I’m not worried at all. The poor sumbitch 20 feet behind and 8 feet to the left of me might be at risk, though.
I might be worried about being shot *at*.
Unless you’re here in Austin, of course. How long has it been, elsewhere, since John Law killed a bad guy with a single bullet from 104 yards away, while holding the reins of 2 horses in his off hand? Don’t mess with Texas.
Last one I heard about was 20+ years ago. An Air Force SP dropped a disgruntled ex-Airman who was shooting up the base hospital with a single head shot at 95 yards. With an M9.
How to tell the difference between good and bad guys? The CCW will obey the instructions of responding police! Sure, you’ll end up in cuffs for a short period while they sort it out, but cops will focus their guns on the guy not following instructions. I suggest there is blue on blue because the plains clothes officer doesn’t follow instructions from the uniformed cops, who have no way of telling if they have an imposter with a gun.
Cops could solve blue on blue like the military uses on patrols: Every day before you go on duty you get a new password that only the police and dispatchers know. You use the correct word of the day to prove you’re a fellow officer.
Not too concerned with getting shot by a cop. I’m not homeless, not a minority, not drunk or crazy in public, and when I do encounter police I keep my hands where they can see them and I don’t cuss them out for doing what is in reality a tough, thankless job. Last time I encountered a cop it was quite pleasant; my across the street neighbor’s door was open at 10pm and I knew he was on vacation, so I called the cops instead of checking it myself (Ragnar’s mother didn’t raise no fool who would get shot going into a dark house at night under uncertain circumstances). County showed up in less than five minutes and the two officers did a quick scan of the outside and then went inside. No muss, no fuss, no one in the house. (likely that the guy who was checking his mail left the door open; I would have a long talk with my friend at that point) The officers stayed about 30 minutes talking to me, mostly gun stuff. Real nice guys for jack-booted thugs. 😉
So police are the only ones trained and discerning enough to identify and catch bad guys…and at the same time are unable to distinguish good guys from bad.
Does being so stupid ever give these journos a headache? (Maybe that’s what their Com degrees are for; hardening their logic circuits against the pain of doublethink.)
No, I believe that if we are polite and calm and follow their instructions, it will go good, if I need to argue I’ll do it in court, cops win all street arguments.
Uh, no. I know the hate is strong for LE here and it’s a popular place to jump on the “f*ck the police” band wagon but honestly your odds of getting illegally gunned down by a bad cop are probably close to your odds of winning the powerball.
That doesn’t mean general caution and a healthy dose of situational awareness isn’t called for.
1) DOGS: “I’m sorry officer I have friendly, non-biting dogs that need to be locked up first, I will open the door for you in about one minute.
2) ENTRY (other than by prior call or invitation): “I’m sorry officer, unless you have a warrant or a supreme court recognized exception to the fourth amendment such as hot pursuit, you do not have my consent enter my home or curtilage. I apologize for the inconvenience but I hope you have a good day.”
3) DGU: cops already present? No DGU. That’s suicide. Cops not present? Shoot to stop threat, scan for further danger (to include arriving cops), holster weapon and hastily assume a compliance position to wait for the cops. If the opportunity arises render aid to the wounded but when in doubt assume a compliance position.
Following those and other basic precautions, I am about as worried about a villainous or trigger happy cop gunning me down as I am about catastrophic near earth objects. If this is one of your big fears in life you’re either very paranoid (which might not necessarily be a bad thing in this case… it’ll probably make you more cautious and aware around LEOs) or a bad guy.
I don’t often break the cardinal rule of no stupid stuff, with stupid people, in stupid places. So no.
First, I train more in 2 weeks then most police train in 6 months. Second, accidental, blue-on-blue shootings happen because they assume other police will know they are the good guy. I will never assume they know who I am. Third, I would rather be alive when the police finally arrive.
I’m not worried about using my weapon in self defense and being mistaken by a cop to be the bad guy, but I am worried that my neighbor’s ex-girlfriend will rat him out about the pot plants in his basement and the cops might bust down my door with flash bangs and guns drawn by mistake.
As a gun owner and a dog owner, yes. I don’t like it when strangers approach me. I really don’t like it when cops approach me.
Not really, they’ll show up long after the fact. Cops don’t bother me so much as the ATF and other alphabet soup agencies that will soon become murder squads for Obama and Hitlery.
That’s a point. I’m afraid I must agree that ATF or IRS would scare me more than my local LE.
Of course it scares me. My goal is to die at age 110 after being shot by a jealous husband as I’m going out the window.
Depends on where I am at. My residence is is in a rural jurisdiction patrolled by the PA state police, a decently professional outfit and I have little fear of being shot because of mistaken identity or as an innocent bystander. My fear level goes up when I am in the PA cities of Easton, Allentown, Stroudsburg, Reading because these police depts. have all had more than their share of mistaken shootings. My fear level goes up to an even higher level if I am in Philly or NYC because those depts don’t really seem to care who they shoot, the typical worst thing that seems to happen in a bad shoot to the officer involved is a month off with pay, the dept. may get sued, but the officer that did the shooting has little to fear. I’ve spent time in downtown Manila, Philippines and was not afraid of the police, and that dept has its corruption problems. I did worry about the criminal element, as they have little to fear in a metro area of 27,000,000. The main reason for my fear there was I could not blend into the population on the street, I’m 6′-3″ tall and 300 lb and the avg. Filipino is about 5′-5″ and 130 lb. The “bad guys” can see my $American$ face from 3 blocks away. So far I have managed to be safe in my travels there, but I am very careful and stay on high alert as to my situation and surroundings.
I am worried about human error in whole bunch of things.
“Law enforcement personnel . . . are allowed to carry firearms, and they are highly trained in their use.”
Thanks, Missoulian, for finally clearing Officer Darren Wilson.
Nope. A lot more worried about getting a “shot” in the arm by todays version of the state priest wearing a white lab coat.
Anti-vaxxers are so amusing.
Not as amusing as people who unquestionably support the Government/Pharmaceutical cartel yet pretend to be pro individual rights.
I haven’t run into very many who ‘unquestionably support the Government/Pharmaceutical cartel’. The number I have found so far is zero actually.
@action, “anti-vaxxers” verbiage is usually a tip off.
Is he talking about being anti vaccine or the future possibility of forced chipping? Because government mandated chipping is a real threat and will be possible sooner than most of us can imagine.
The latest fear porn, measles non-epidemic vaccine agenda is very similar to the gun control movement. Both use very similar (flawed)arguments, and just as the agenda behind gun control has nothing to do with reducing crime rates, the vaccine agenda has nothing to do with making the American public healthier. Both share the goal of making the public more compliant and docile.
pg2, while I’m generally a believer in vaccines, I have to agree with your inference about the recent measles “crisis”. The media screaming panic and pandemic, ranting and raving about the horrible dangers of going unvaccinated against measles, in the face of a couple hundred cases, including nothing serious. Ebola? I’m down with the panic, with a 70% fatality rate. What is measles? Does it have ANY fatality rate? Gee, I’m uncomfortable for a couple days, big deal. What was all the fuss?
Larry, Measles was all but eradicated in the US, but has recently made a resurgence, mainly in areas that are populated by people who have refused vaccinations for their children. Measles for the most part are not dangerous for grown adults. But for the very young (including babies that have not yet received vaccinations because they are not old enough), the elderly, and the immunity-deficient, it is very much deadly. Measles still kills thousands each year. Before 1980 and widespread vaccination, measles killed over 2.5 MILLION a year. So, yes, it is a very dangerous disease. And morons like pg2 are doing their part to bring it back because they believe a highly unscientific paper that has been widely discredited. They’re putting people at serious risk all on junk science and tinfoil conspiracies. The data is available for you to research.
@Larry, the media has no doubt manufactured the current measles epidemic, and states now are beginning to fall into line on cue to further restrict peoples ability to obtain vaccine exemptions. I might be off in the exact numbers, but there have been over 100 deaths in the last 10 years or so directly related to the measles vaccine, there have been 0 deaths from wild measles infection in that time period. Gun owners more than most should understand the dishonesty in both the government and the media when it comes to preserving our rights.
pg2, You make an interesting claim: A. no people have died of measles in the past 10 years, but B. 10 people have died of the measles shot.
Point A is false since there have been a very small number of deaths, 4, due to measles. Also, this number is tiny because of the effectiveness of the vaccine. Also, in 2000, measles was declared eliminated from the US, so we would expect there to be no deaths.
Point B is false because the supposed source of the claim that there have been 100 deaths does not actually claim that there have been any deaths — the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). This is what the VAERS states in its report:
“When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established. Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.”
good post, but it probably won’t make any difference. anti-vaxxees will ignore the overwhelming evidence and cherry pick the random nutcase who writes something that supports their nonsense.
@karlb, quoting snooes categorizes you as a troll or a dupe.
So I do not seem like either a dupe or a troll, here is the same quotation from the primary source, the VAERS website:
“Guide to Interpreting VAERS Case Report Information
When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established. Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.”
I am sorry I hurt your sensibilities by being lazy and using a secondary source. Please, now feel free to actually argue against the point, not me being a troll or a dupe.
@karl, @grind, both of your posts contain half true and untrue statements. I’ve seen a fair bit of pharmaceutical trolling, and both of you use similiar tactics. Interestingly, had a conversation with a board certified medical doctor yesterday who himself does not trust either the CDC nor the pharmaceutical companies(given the revolving door -incestuous relationship between the agency and the industry that it allegedly regulates) and he found it difficult to believe that gun owners as population segment would support the medical dictatorship that the manufactured measles hysteria is being used by the mainstream media to condition the public to accept. In my circle of gun owning acquaintances, no one speaks in the extreme statist terms that many here do when anything else outisde of gun ownership is discussed. If this forum is a real barometer of the gun owning public(which based on my own experience is it not) the 2A is already a dead man walking. Keep up the trolling fellas.
@Karl, one more thing, if you’re not hanging around snopes, a known disinformation site, you mentioned VAERS, which does deserve mention. VAERS is a self regulating database, where doctors and patients can report vaccine reactions…..IF they know the database exists. I’m in the healthcare field, and I’ll bet you that less than 1 in 100 lay people know what VAERS even is or that it exists. And logging vaccine reactions is a multistep, somewhat complicated process, not quite as easy as posting nonsense here. Now doctors have no incentive to log on and report vaccine reactions, nor do they face penalties for not doing so. Given that medicine admittedly reports 1-10% of drug reactions, VAERS has some real obstacles with reporting, or underreporting. What an honest observer will notice is the consistency of reactions to the vaccines given in the reactions that are reported. The type of reactions reported for specific vaccines are not willy nilly or random, they are very consistent. Have a nice day and enjoy hanging on snopes, where yes the laws of physics can also be suspended when it suits a statist agenda.
PG2, I promise this will be my last post. But just a couple of points–I am accused of making false statements, but you do not tell me what they are, so I cannot respond to the accusation. You back that up with an ad hominem attack that compares me to some group that you perceive as evil. Finally, the crowning proof of your insights comes from one “board certified” doctor who trusts neither the CDC nor drug companies. Sorry, but that ain’t proof: for one thing, your collaborating doctor friend never said anything about the efficacy of vaccines; we just know who he does not trust.
I know that you will never be convinced, but I hope that you step up your debate skills so the next discussion will be more fruitful to all the readers.
@karl, your original post contained inaccuracies and untrue statements in your point A and Point B segments. Also, you engaged in some ad hominem yourself, so spare me the soap box. Ad hominem is rampant here, especially when someone discusses ideas that question the official, statist versions of things. You can go to pubmed and search MMR and autism, and you find close to 80 hits linking research connecting MMR and autism. Keep in mind this all post Dr. Wakefield, so these researchers understand they are risking their careers by publishing these studies. I’ll cut and paste a segment from the National Vaccine information Centers Website, a non-profit, and you can decide what do with the information.
“Common side effects from the MMR vaccine include low-grade fever, skin rash, itching, hives, swelling, reddening of skin, and weakness. Serious adverse events following MMR vaccination include seizures, severe headaches, double vision, vomiting, joint pain, or pain in the digestive system.1
Other more rare but serious complications reported by Merck in MMR vaccine post-marketing surveillance include:2
•brain inflammation (encephalitis) and encephalopathy (chronic brain dysfunction);
•panniculitis (inflammation of the fat layer under the skin);
•atypical measles; syncope (sudden loss of consciousness, fainting);
•vasculitis (inflammation of the blood vessels);
•pancreatitis (inflammation of the pancreas);
•thrombocytopenia purpura (blood disorder);
•leukocytosis (high white blood cell count);
•arthritis and arthralgia (joint pain);
•myalgia (muscle pain);
•polyneuritis (inflammation of several nerves simultaneously).
Using the MedAlerts search engine, which facilitates an online search of the federal Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) database, as of December 14, 2014 there have been 6,962 serious adverse events reported to the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) in connection with measles vaccine since 1990, with over half of those occurring in children three years old and under. Of these events 329 were deaths, with over half of the deaths occurring in children under three years of age. Adverse events following MMR vaccination reported to VAERS include:
•lupus (autoimmune connective tissue disorder);
•Guillain-Barre syndrome (inflammation of the nerves);
•aseptic meningitis (inflammation of the lining of the brain);
•cardiomyopathy (weakening of the heart muscle);
•hypotonic-hyporesponsive episodes (collapse/shock);
•subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE);
•ataxia (loss of ability to coordinate muscle movements);
•parathesia (numbness, burning, prickling, itching, tingling skins sensation indicating nerve irritation)”
And I agree with you that 1 doctor’s opinion is not proof of anything, but keep in mind, to date there is no test that demonstrates the safety or efficacy of these vaccines. I am sorry I hurt your sensibilities by stating a fact.
You mean the vaxholes?
No, they’re not amusing. They’re the same people who, 30 years ago, were rending their garments and wailing about credit cards being the Mark of the Beast that would be the end of us all. We’re still here.
So are they.
Seeing how the average American struggle with credit cards and the American government sets up all of us for failure with the debt and unfunded liabilities, maybe credit cards are the sign of the devil.
I’m more likely to be shot by a cop than anyone else in my city.
i was thinking the same thing you are more likely to get shot by the police then AQ or isis How sad is that ?
I am afraid of the “spray and pray” philosophy that comes up anytime when somebody with a gun, cop or civilian, is faced with a high tension and anxiety situation. In these cases. the chemical cocktail (read adrenaline) takes over, specially in untrained civilians and poorly train cops. So, yes, I am afraid of stray bullets from cops and untrained civilians, there is ample evidence for that. Case in point, 1993, two cops stop a driver for speeding and accidentally shoot the driver when the officer’s gun (a Beretta 92) goes of “accidentally”; driver died. Another example that would be funny if it were not tragic, two drug dealers in West Baltimore fight for a corner to peddle their drugs; they empty two 15 round magazines on each other and manage to miss their intended targets (each other) but a stray bullet kill a 10 year old girl that by striking her in the head. And that are just two examples, there are plenty more in the last 20 years. Plenty of cops fire multiple times at distances that are not suppose to miss and yet they do.
A few years back, there was a cop and a bad guy on opposite sides of a hotel hallway, like 3 feet apart, emptied their guns at each other without anybody drawing blood. Hysterical!
No, mainly because I don’t fit the “profiles”.
Why not? Do you wear a wig and lipstick? j/k
Am I worried about being shot by a cop? Which “cops”, under what circumstances?
Bureaucrats with guns, operationally operating in their tacticool law-enforcement costums with a presumption of righteousness and risk to overcome … make me a bit nervous. (I’ve seen this in person. It’s spooky.) They do sometimes get a bit bullet-hose happy when they get too get pumped up by a big operation. It’s not that often, but the stakes on the receiving end are high enough that even “rarely” matters. The folks who shoulder their tricked-out over-sized SUVs through traffic in formation seem … to have a bit of mission oritentation. And their mission ain’t my safety. You’re not cop, you’re little people. I am uncomfortable with that attitude wearing big, shiny boots, let alone wielding guns, honest-to-ATF military assault rifles and more.
Beat cops out in their neighborhoods make me feel better, whatever their gear. I’d like to issue them Katana just becuase.
Really, it comes down to how they are incented and how they’ve been trained. The guys incented to collect pelts of whatever kind, trained that using force is its own end, not a regrettable necessity, pumped up in a big op, sometimes are a bit dangerous. The guys rewarded for racking up another day without incident involving themselves or their charges are indeed about “keeping the peace.”
Officer-involved shootings should always be DGUs. Else it’s summary execution, and we frown on summary punishment in law-govered societies. Like civilians, an officer-involved DGU is always first steeped in the regret that it came to this. Cops managed that way can be armed with plasma rifles in the 40 watt range, and I’d be bothered not at all.
I do suspect that much of the anti-gun silliness is grounded in imagining a macho-feeding adrenaline rush, complementing the other notion that people are not responsible enough to have potent – meaning dangerous – tools. Same for cops. Responsibility and anticipated regret are powerful counter balances to possibly using force “unnecessarily.” I suspect that the image of “teams” of cops effectively occupying neighborhoods and events with displays of overwhelming force taint the notion of civilian gun ownership. Civilians gather in uniformed, armed groups to intimidate folks they disagree with way less often than some other populations. Bureaucrats with guns, and organized crime to name two.
So, which “cops?” Under what circumstances? I actively avoid sweeps, interventions, road blocks, “presence opeations” and whatever else, just becasue the armed guys doing them are already hyped up, incented to collect scalps, and focused on the kineticness of the situation, not other things like, you know, keeping the peace with words.
Of course, that’s the point of some kinds of “presence” operation. Pure intimidation. We’re here, wound up & over-armed so you get the hint … don’t give us a reason. You came to our attention, so this is what you get. People object to that over time, rightly. And it ain’t just cops, of course who do this. This has been a tactic of gangs and occupiers for as long as we have history. I am uncomfortable with bureaucrats in uniforms acting like enforcers for a protection racket. Shooting you just helps make their point. I’m happier with a beat cop looking out for the community s/he’s in.
So, really “cop” and even “armed cop” isn’t the important distinction. Bureaucrats with guns making a point could do any damn thing (and have.) I’m sometimes worried about getting shot by one of those, not least because when they’re out and about they’re only half paying attention to here and now. The rest is wrapped up in the story in their head. Beat cops as part of the immune system of their communities have the same goals as the people around them. They’d need a reason, so why would they shoot me?
Cops might not be the best trained in combat, but they do learn so size up people quick. I don’t look like the threatening type and don’t act like one. If I am ever in a DGU, my gun will be stowed safely away long before the cops arrive so they have time to asses any threat I may or may not pose before they do anything stupid. Its hard to imagine a situation that deteriorate into a standoff, the bad guy is either going to run, be shot or have shot me long before the cops arrive.
YES. Definately yes. HPD officers are not even aware or don’t care about any rights you might have. They come out to neutralize. Thankfully most of them have to get up very close to hit their targets. The exception being the odd military vet in blue or so who is on the force. You have to keep an eagle eye for those ones because they typically keep shooting till any perceived threat is no longer a threat. Which is to say if you happen to be in the area when they show up you are a threat. HPD officers murder so many people based on the non-defined threat clause. They don’t care if you are an invalid, if they feel like putting some lead in you they will do so and be backed up by the union+tax payer money+millions being donated by private donors. You on the other hand are out of luck!
Is this a trick question?
Chance of being shot by responding law-enforcement in a “typical” DGU? Not too worried about it. But in a somewhat more protracted situation, like an active shooter at a shopping mall, God forbid I should be in a defensive position trying to protect my family when the first responding officers roll in behind me,
My wife already knows to call 911 if we get in that type of situation and immediately tell dispatch where we are, what I am wearing, that I am armed. One thing I have noticed is that dispatch communications people are pretty good at staying on top of a situation and relaying information promptly, at least in my area of Washington State. It might at least buy me a little time to show I am cooperative and compliant with them before they just open fire on someone with a firearm.
My biggest concern is “contagious fire” where five officers might hesitate and the sixth opens fire, and then they all almost by reflex will open fire.
The hair I still have is graying and although I always directly answer questions with a “sir” when I’ve been stopped, I have yet to have a positive experience with an officer while they are in uniform.
Saw someone’s mexican standoff comment and realized how wildly unfounded these fears are. The numbers are very much on your side. This just doesn’t happen often. Anywhere. Even in states where the blood flows in the streets since any maniac can carry a gun around.
“But when responding to a call for help, how are they to tell the difference between the bad guy and the victim when both are pointing guns at each other?”
That only happens on tv. It never happened in real life that two people stand there aiming guns at each other but no one shoots. Unless they both had fake guns.
This is Quentin Tarantino’s favorite gag and it is stupid.
The more I know, the more I worry.
Not too worried. OFWG’s aren’t real high on the list. That being said about 3years ago I had a 20something cop charge into my yard while I was sitting in my truck. Looking for a garage thief. And I had my unloaded pistol(with a mag nearby in my truck(in Illinois). Even 30 years ago when I was out and about in the Northern suburbs and got questioned about an armed robbery I didn’t feel the need to defend myself against a PO-leeceman…there are a lot of inept young idiot cops in my area. Knowing how to speak and being polite goes a long way towards being safe.
Yes, the only people I’m worried about shooting me are the police. Why? Because they have no reason to ever show restraint. If Joe Sixpack misuses his gun, he’s going to jail for a long time and permanently losing his rights. If Officer Toughguy decides he wants to misuse his gun, the worst that will happen to him is a few weeks of extra vacation time – more likely than not (especially if he “accidentally” shot an innocent person by “accidentally” going into a home he had no reason to enter during a 3am raid), he’ll be given medals for bravery.
No, because unlike everyone who has been shot by a cop, I don’t plan on doing stupid things in front of one.
“But when responding to a call for help, how are they to tell the difference between the bad guy and the victim when both are pointing guns at each other?”
Somebody please get me the first time this happens. it hasn’t happened so far, and I don’t foresee it happening any time soon. Usually by the time a cop gets there, the perp’s already bleeding out in an ambulance.
“No, because unlike everyone who has been shot by a cop, I don’t plan on doing stupid things in front of one.”
Because people minding their own business haven’t been assaulted and murdered. Here’s a short list:
Cop worshipers blame the victims, as always.
Do you actually believe that cops have never shot the wrong person ever in the history of cops? So what did Aiyana Jones do that was stupid that she deserved to be shot point-blank in the head by a cop that warrantlessly broke into her house? Google her name and tell me that 7 year old deserved it.
Last year, I had about a dozen cops aim their weapons at me, and I sure am not someone who does stupid things to draw the attention of the police. My terrible decision? I gave a neighbor a ride. My neighbor came by and asked for a ride since his girlfriend had the car. Sure, I would be happy to; unfortunately, my neighbor was not who he had claimed to be, and instead of being ex-military, he was an ex-con, and he had a warrent out for his arrest. I had known him pretty well; he was a hell of a good guy. Always had a Guinness to share. I helped him tear up his front steps, and he helped me chop down a cedar tree. Yet, when I gave him a ride that night, I got caught up in his world, and I had a crapload of guns aimed at me.
Sometimes we find trouble we are not looking for.
I’m more worried about my dogs, although our village police so far are good with dogs. Even when a couple of loose pits were running around my brother’s neighborhood and the police were called, they were careful not to hurt them. My brother put his kids and dog inside and grabbed his HiPower just in case, but the dogs turned out to be friendly.
I would rather take my chances in the remote possibility of a Mexican standoff with the cops showing up not knowing good guy from bad guy, than take my chances in a one-sided encounter with an an unarmed good guy (me) versus an armed bad guy.
if I ever have to hold a bad guy at gun point until the cops arrive, i will make absolutely sure that they know who I am in a clear, loud, calm voice.
No, I’m not worried about being shot by a cop. I’m not a criminal and don’t plan to become one. I am calm, polite and cooperative in dealing with the police; they’ve always returned the same to me. I don’t put myself in situations where an officer would have to consider me as a threat. My most recent interaction with LEO was fingerprinting for my CHL application. When I told him about my application he was genuinely pleased, saying he recommended everyone go through CHL certification. Be nice to cops and let them know you’re not a bad guy and they’ll do the same for you.
Good luck on your eternal quest to avoid offending the government. Because that’s all a “criminal” is, anyone who offended the government’s legal system, a byzantine labyrinth of regulations designed to exert control over the people.
Three felones a day: http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent-ebook/dp/B00505UZ4G
Basically your plan is to obey authority like a whipped slave and hope you’re not picked on.
I’ll work on changing the government above ground and outside prison. Good luck on the other side.
Who would you change the system? You’re busy groveling your way into its good graces.
When the government decides to criminalize something you enjoy, will you still let the cops know you’re a “good guy”?
In my experience, local LEOs are closer to my position than they are to the government. But make sure somebody is videoing your defiance so that we’ll have another “guy getting gunned down by the police” video to critique. The difference between us is I am able to admit that I’m not a revolutionary. I agree that we shouldn’t have to cower before the government, but those who refuse are out of the fight sooner or later.
I’ll change the system with my one vote and by talking with anyone that will listen. If I die or go to prison I’m pretty sure that somehow I’d end up on the democrat registry.
Put your money where your mouth is on April 15th. Don’t file your taxes and you’ll get a great opportunity to play Billy Badass with the gubmint.
I’ll be taking new shooters to the range and raising the next generation of libertarians and conservatives. We’ll see which of us gets further in returning this country to a constitutional republic.
By the way, say hi to the NSA because they are certainly monitoring this conversation.
It’s cute when people actually believe voting makes a difference. At least you admit laws are followed because of fear of government murder, not because they are inherently right or just. But then why would you side with cops, the dispensers of fear and intimidation?
Also implying gun ownership makes you a libertarian. The government has an army of schutzstaffel jack-booted thugs all armed to the teeth and you can bet none of them know a thing about Hayek or Rothbard, other than to shoot people who has read them.
The vast majority of cops will obey orders. People like Frank Serpico literally come once a generation.
You know where I stand. So what would you do different Blain?
Nothing different, except treat cops with the contempt they deserve.
so all cops everywhere deserve contempt?
I’d like you to name a single functioning country that doesn’t have public employees performing the police function.
You sound irrational and histrionic.
Nice strawman. Cops are merely functionaries of the law they serve. People that willingly serve a corrupt legal system deserve contempt, ergo all cops in this country deserve contempt.
On the other hand, one can respect police in the few countries with legal systems that aren’t just government systems for theft, corruption and oppression.
It appears a couple of paranoid anarchists trolls have decided to sh*t all over the comment section with cop hatred, and in one case posting about practising disarming cops in a struggle so they can use the gun against the cop (looking at you, Dustin).
it’s disgusting, and extremely harmful to the 2nd amendment cause.
Blain, I think your stance is heavy on passion and light on logic. Your strategy is to treat the police with contempt for enforcing bad laws. The police have as much to do with those bad laws as you or I. If this is truly the source of your problem with the police, then your anger is misplaced. Instead, you should be angry with the politicians that pass and defend bad laws, and with the people that would elect these politicians. There are good police and there are bad police, just like every other profession. I’ve only experienced the good police, but your experience may be different.
If cops actually behaved with the slightest bit of humanity and refused to enforce those laws (or better yet, quit), those laws would disappear instantly. The willingness of the police to violate the taxpayers for a taxpayer-funded paycheck and pension is a major factor in the continued existence of corrupt laws.
Your argument is simply American Fuhrerprinzip. By parity of argument, one should not hold the Einsatzgruppen in contempt. After all, they didn’t write the Nuremberg Laws.
Do you have any evidence to support your assertions that if cops didn’t enforce the laws, the laws would be changed?
Sounds to me as if you are living a fantasy that is running only in your head.
Your elected representatives, at all levels of govt (local, state, fed), are the ones who make the laws.
Hmmm, if the enforcers of bad laws all refused to do so, what power does the bad law have? None. The Prohibition was ended partly because the government recognized that the majority of treasury agents entrusted to enforce it refused to do so, with a few exceptions.
It is amusing that someone would absolve the police of the individual responsibility of working for scumbag politicians and enforcing terrible laws, but cast collective blame on the entire citizenry for electing scumbag politicians even though a large chunk of the population didn’t vote for said scumbags.
Only about 1/3 of police-fired rounds hit their intended target. (About 1/6 if that target is firing back.)
So, yes, I’m a little concerned about being shot by police, but only in the context of being beside or beyond someone they’re actually trying to hit.
The concept does bring up a good point. What we clearly need to do is remove the guns from cops, if deadly force is ever needed, they can dial some special number and wait for a non-cop with a gun to arrive. Shouldn’t be more than a few hours.
Seriously, they claim all this fabulous training, but cannot face that possibility? What do the police in their state do in such circumstance? How about in all the other carry states? What they’re saying is that their training is woefully inadequate.
I’m certainly not a fan of modern day police.. But as an average, basic Dude with my own experience, I know that when a situation turns sour either legitimately or coerced, and you have to fire, If you have a fair amount of training, You will go thru the motions, But that doesnt mean you are going to hit your target…….Getting that good requires you to quit your job and make your weapon and things like breathing and mental training your new job.
I have had exactly zero interaction with law enforcement IRL in over ten years (knock wood) and that was a speeding ticket.
And yet my answer is still Yes.
I “know” the cops on here, and they seem like pleasant, fair-minded people, but the police as a whole in this country have become an occupying force.
Thanks to the Drug War. Thanks to military freebies and the mindset that comes with them.
nope because i do what the cops ask.
You do realize that putting your hands down to break a fall, or catch yourself or raised to protect your head and face is considered resisting and will get the shit beat out of you and possibly shot….. right?..
Good boy. Now lick it.
No worries here. I’d just slip the cop a C-note and be on my way.
I’d pull you over twice a week.
I am a law abiding DEAF citizen. I am a dead man walking. If the cops ever happen to be yelling for me to cease and obey….They will just think that I am a criminal, a druggie or a mentally insane/homeless person and fire away regardless. Cheers! Nice knowing ya all!!
I am super curious. Are there any LEOs here on TTAG that understand the sign: finger at ear then mouth to indicate “I AM DEAF”?
You are a dead man walking 357….your situation is lethal.. you should inform local cops and emergency first responder personnel in your area of this BEFORE something does happen…. how does it work if you get pulled over?.. Not much a person can do if they are away from their stomping grounds.
Or, you know, cops could NOT shoot him? Nah…
When I was taking a gun safety class at the Sheriff’s office, a man wandered into the building and the deputy called out to him. He did not respond so both officers took off running after the guy. Some of the students were wondering if it was a demonstration. I was wondering why I left my gun in the car. Oh yeah because I was in a Government building and I can’t be trusted to lawfully carry my gun in a Government “sanctuary”. But what if someone came into the room and took out the two instructors? We would all be defenseless. We already broke the law by having our guns in the parking lot. Someone asked about that and the cop said “we make exceptions for classes. Whatever. The law makes no such exception. Anyway, back to the unresponsive man. When the instructors returned they explained that the man was deaf and was looking for an ATM machine.
Fuque: In town its laid back and everyone knows everyone. No fear. But then there are County Cops. And State Cops. Who seem to be more gung-ho and uninformed than the local cops. What can I do? Besides perching myself on top of a church steeple w/a spot light on me saying “I am deaf don’t shoot” (they can”t hit me at that distance) I guess its situation awareness that they all can learn somehow.
Michael: Thanks for sharing. Interesting story. I wonder if that deaf man’s name was: “Lucky”?
Grindstone, Michael, Fuque…. whatcha say…lets go shooting.
Yeah, it was tattooed on his arm. He was a rough looking character.
What is sign language for “watch my back”. I’d be a little nervous around Grindstone.
Michael, why is that? Because I don’t believe there’s a Muslim boogeyman under my bed? I’d be more afraid of you whacking me with a bible and screaming “HEATHEN”.
357, I never turn down an opportunity to head out to the range if I can help it. Pardon if this is a dumb question, but curiosity begs, what kind of earpro do you use?
I don’t think we could get along. Maybe, as long as we don’t talk politics. I don’t want you going all Eddie Ray Routh on me.
Political discussion in-person is a whole lot different from online. To each other, you and I are just faceless nametags next to walls of text.
Due to my time in the military, my circle of friends is extremely diverse, from an evangelical Christian crusty old Master Sgt to a minority lesbian. Yet we all enjoy shooting.
And you have nothing to fear from me.
As long as you don’t take my parking spot.
“As long as you don’t take my parking spot.”
Now that right there is funny!!!!!
Gindstone: That is not a dumb question. Because, I was dumb thinking that the wear “HEARING” protection rule did not apply to me ya know, I’m already deaf, right? I can’t even hear gunshots. I was right, up until I took an ear full of airburst/shoickwave from standing too close to my cousin shooting .38+p. Felt like someone stabbed my ear with a sharp pencil. From that point on, I wear “EAR” protection which is a couple of my old hearing aids, ear molds.
357, that makes sense. Kind of the same lines why blind people wear sunglasses, eh?
I am very concerned about getting shot by a cop. I got a Ruger LCP to investigate things that go bump in the night. I used to just grab a shotgun or rifle to investigate things in the night. I am not worried about our local deputies. They have all met an armed homeowner at the door and have never shot anyone that didn’t need shooting. But we have all these officers from these alphabet agencies that come out here in the woods. Hell those officers will start shooting a hoot owl, dog, almost anything. I can just slip the LCP in my pajamas if I run into one of those city slickers before he even knows I am there.
Yes, I worry. Anyone getting pulled over could very well end up as a victim of random act of violence..I don’t worry about criminals at home because i hedge my bets with deterrents, Security cameras, Lighting, pitbulls, chainlink fencing,locked gates and weapons..
I worry about the thugs who can legally crash in without probable cause and shoot the dogs,shoot out the cameras, the lights and rip out the fencing and kill me if i resist.
Yes! And I think Frank Serpico agrees w/ me 🙂
I have never had a “problem” with the police and in fact I have been asked, multiple times, if I was a law enforcement officer. Definitely need a fashion advisor! But in the one plausible situation I could envision, which would be a deranged employee, former employee, or disgruntled customer coming back with a grudge, I am definitely concerned of police overreaction. We have silent alarms for this situation and the police often drive by this building. But I am concerned if we ever had an incident and I had my legal CC permit weapon, and we also hit the silent alarm. Would I be shot along with the criminal, if I had not shot him first, or would I be caught in the hail of bullets that passes for police marksmanship these days? (I am not talking about the national news. There have been more than a few police shootings in my general area where even though the deceased parties were criminals, the number of shots fired by the police seemed totally out of proportion with the need to “stop” the offender.) My interest in CCW began and has continued due to workplace situations with deranged parties, where it was scarily apparent that “when the police are needed in seconds, they are many minutes away.” Fortunately never got out of hand but still made me rethink my options and thankfully I live in a shall-issue state and got some training as well as the gun. It’s bad enough that I should have to worry about deranged employees and customers — I should not also have to be afraid of poor police marksmanship and mistaken identity.
In many states, public universities do not have “armed security,” they have sworn police forces. The MIT officer that the Boston bombers killed was a sworn police officer. Florida campuses have police forces with Chiefs, as does Alabama and Tennessee. It is different with the private schools.
The cop bashing continues! Tune in again tomorrow for more of the same. Same cop bashing channel, same cop bashing time, same cop bashing place.
You mad? Just calling a spade a spade.
There may be a few that are “highly trained” but for the most part that’s a complete myth.
Not on the street. I’ve OC’d for over seven years. The cops here in NM haven’t been twitchy about me carrying a 1911.
Any shooting will happen most likely happen because the bad guy will make sure there are no cops around. Hence, any shooting will happen with no cops in the vicinity. If I survived the encounter, I would make sure the gun was on the ground and I was not within ten feet of it with my hands in the air once they showed up.
No, no knock warrants at the wrong house is where I might end up in shoot out with the cops.
Does the prospect of being shot by a cop worry you as much as it worries the antis?
Yes, but not nearly as much as my dogs.
The antis would like to see me dead so they really do not worry.
I find police in VT to be a pretty decent lot. I have been to plenty of places where the police were terrifying.
I grew up in NYC in the 1970s (see SERPICO) and the police were not scary because I drank with them most nights. They were nice to me — I grew up with them or their kids — but they were corrupt, violent and mob connected.
They never used guns — they inserted the bullets manually.
“But when responding to a call for help, how are they to tell the difference between the bad guy and the victim when both are pointing guns at each other?”
Strawman argument. 999 times out of 1000, by the time the cops get there the confrontation is already over, and has been for some time. It’s very, very unlikely that the cops will encounter two people engaged in a gun battle.
Mostly only in the context of being swatted or no knocked because they got the wrong house.
Just ask the innocent civilians that were caught in the cross fire with the NYC police department and some perps. I think the NYC shot more civilians than crooks.
No I’m not. If a police officer has some form of business to conduct with me, I address him or her politely as sir or ma’am and I keep my hands visible where they can see them.