Question of the Day: Are You Fed-Up With High-Speed Low-Drag Operators?

I definitely am fed up with these guys. Well, at least with the ones who come to the local range and show absolutely awful manners.

I think it’s just more fun with us OFWG, walrus-mustache-wearing types (although I have a handlebar — I’ll be your huckleberry.) HSLD is cool, but sometimes I just wanna shoot for fun.

Wilfred Brimley is lookin good!
Nice Traffic reference as well.

The model for our second amendment, or at least a model for it, were the Greek Hoplites. The people should have arms and be available for competent military service when needed. It exists to ensure that the government is at least partly dependent on the people for its existence.

The modern military is immensely powerful and there should be no pretense that an ad hoc group of citizens can take it on if, god forbid it becomes necessary to try. But by maintaining some military skills, there is at least some corporate understanding among the people as to how to form a military force.

I think we will never need these tacticools and there training will never be used, but the day they are no longer available will be a very dangerous day.

Again TTAG shows a philosophical bent against freedom and how firearms protect us.

i dont really have a need for it but it seems kinda fun id like to try it someday.

The ‘operator’ move that gets me irrationally twisted is the ultra-slow over-exaggerated Terminator scanning double shoulder check after every firing action. I get the premise, I honestly do: break tunnel vision and check for additional hostile activities. It makes perfect logical sense.

Is that how you’d do it all hopped up on adrenalin and fear? Nice, slow radar sweep? Or would your cranium be spinning more akin to Linda Blair? I’ll admit the latter is far more likely for me.

I’m certain I’ll be bashed for the above, but (as a non-operator) watching guys at the range do this makes my blood boil.

This sort of training brings out the Walter Mitty’s. Which is fine. You should be free to spend your money and time on whatever hobbies you desire, so long as you’re not breaking the law.

In the real world of civilian DGU’s I think this training is practically useless. we’re not cops or soldiers. And those of us that used to be either one will recognise that these weekend classes have little value.

I live about 2 hours away from Tactical Response. I dont know much about them except that a lot of people seem to have strong feelings against them. But I am not even sure as to why.

Anyways, for the time being I am indifferent. I have no formal training aside from my carry class but would like to take FOF and low light classes. Would it be fun to take a balls out tactical type class through one of the big name high speeds? Maybe. But for now, I can spend about $200 less (not including travel expenses) and just get that training from local ranges.

Yes, yes I am.

My “beef” isn’t with the guys teaching this stuff like Travis Haley. They’re trying to do some good for people who do have to face these kinds of hostile situations in either a war-zone or police action against some determined bad guys like cartel scumbags.

As for us ordinary Joe’s, that money would be better spent on a criminal law class and a gym membership. Guys strapping on a kitted up 1911 with a tac light, blade-tech holster, spare mag pouches, and an extra tac light will be sorely disappointed when their gear is seized by the cops as evidence and some douchebag anti-gun DA is using all that “tactical kit” to convince a gun-scared jury to jail the citizen on manslaughter charges.

To us, all this stuff is interesting theatre. To a juror from Mass. or Chicago, this “Get Off The X ” business is nothing less than terrifying- note that military members and PMC’s don’t go to Grand Juries after killing hostiles in combat. For typical concealed carry, the best way to “disrupt” a threat is to not be there to meet it.

Got real thin about 4 or 5 years ago for me. I could see that all this nonsense was about making money.

I put this in the same category as preppers and Jonestown. I don’t need 20 years of dehydrated food or legacy seeds. I actually enjoy being ON THE GRID. My selective service classification is 1H (if I recall correctly), which means this nation doesn’t require my carefully honed shooting skills until the Red Chinese are making air drops of paratroopers over Sausalito CA. I don’t hang out at strip clubs at 2am in the morning. I go to bed at 9pm thank you. I never liked these guys. Slimey characters who push their bottles of elixir from their traveling medicine shows.

As I’ve said before this is a big country. When you can get thousands of people to follow and give money to women who channel the voice of Ramtha, or convince people to drink poisoned Kool Aid, its no surprise that you can get folks to follow any given miracle producing martial art. Not only follow them but swear by them. Be fanatical adherents of them. Dedicate their lives to them. No surprise at all.

Is there a reason, a rationale for learning about guns and the proper handling of them? yes. Is there a reason to think about gun fighting? yes. But be a careful consumer. Understand that the human condition means having to screen out, filter, all the crap you see, hear and read each day. Goes back to that old saying about “trust no one”. The world is filled with folks who are scumbags. And that means a good deal of the folks in the gun world are also scumbags. Be wary. As Jeff Cooper would say, don’t walk around in condition white.

Are You Fed-Up With High-Speed Low-Drag Operators?

No. But those low speed high operators in drag really put a twist in my knickers.

Looks like too much time on your hands with no new gear to review and write about, ‘eh Mr. Farago?…

So why this adhominem attack on Travis Haley’s training style and content? Haley at least has much impressive USMC real combat time credentials to back up what he now does for a living and your credentials? An op-ed gun review writer? Geez.

Maybe TTAG should chuck it’s name bearing “Truth” and just be called “AGAFFT” : “About Guns As Farago’s Feeling Today’ blog.

With “friends” like this amongst the patriots, who needs anymore new enemies?
I know today TTAG for one, doesn’t have my backside covered.

ZERO out of five stars for this TTAG post, Robert Farago.

“Operators” are for our age what knights were to Medieval Europeans….badasses. Nobody wants to play “starving conscript” for $200 a day. Let the kids have fun. Provided the training is actually sound, I won’t blame anyone for learning new skill sets. Even if they’ll probably never need many of them.

I’m glad this post was written and posted.

Personally, I’m sick of it as well. I don’t mind the training itself, so much as I can’t stand those that think ONLY those that do this stuff are worthy.

Especially when every DGU posted on this website are always old grandma’s, Aunt Mae’s and other people who have never fired their gun before.

I’m in the High Drag, Low Speed Demographic, partly due to my days in the Green Machine where it was all OJT. If someone wants to pay for training that’s their concern, training negates fear and fear induced mistakes so it certainly has it’s place.
In hindsight paid for training beats signing-up for 6 years of Drudgery and Suck, even if the ammo was free.

Farago, so… you mean you DON’T want to be the best that you can be, because your pop-culture irreverence says watching too many cool dudes doing cool things, skills if you can learn to match, come close or surpass would also make you cool, but since you can’t match them right now, you should just hang up your spurs?

Right. Come on Robert, what kind of message does that send? What example are you setting for your armed intelligentsia progeny!

LOL

Yes, because settling for being a OFWG is like sooooo inspiring, and/or something to aspire to.

Didn’t someone say life’s a journey, not a destination?

So, why give up Robert? We WANT to see you be cool and all; be all tacti-cool “high speed low drag” divorcee mid-life crisis suburban Jewish ninja, gosh dang it!

LOL

Tacti-cool gunnery is certainly cheaper than buying a new Ferrari, or hell, a trophy Israeli-model wife that you so often URL to, in what is certainly influenced from your days in UK where they make non-sequitur chick references to obscure but hot models, regularly.

Well, I suppose “cheaper” also depends on one’s budget. LOL. But, you get the gist.

So attend more classes, put up more videos. Worst thing to do is, be dissuaded from honing a useful skill in which you’ve already embarked on polishing.

Why settle for mediocrity, when even if you cannot match, the process of learning to match high caliber skills will always take you to levels you’ve previously thought less than possible?

I just said how much I respect Rob Pincus!

The reality is that the little old Grandma packing heat occasionally gets the best of the hoodlums. That’s good stuff. I appreciate the high speed low drag, and I’m happy that we have enough freedom to train in such a way without (a whole lot) of interference from the government. I appreciate training in an intense environment, but I’m honestly not sure how well the trainers like Pincus and co. react to old fat people emerging victoriously from firefights using ordinary guns.

Here is my problem with this stuff. It appears to me that some of these guys are revered for their expertise but I don’t see the qualifications with them. They may have them but I haven’t seen them. I would only trust those who were military trained and actually seen a fair amount of combat to develop their perspective. Otherwise, it’s all theory and theories are wrong ask of the time. Also, does the training include stress training to help you handle the pressure? We were yelled at for three months in Marine Boot Camp and put through so much just so we can handle combat. Those classes can’t do that.

Everybody needs to feel important doing something. Ego and all.

I am more fed up with the recent proliferation of “tactical” beards. Not cool.

I would train with Steve Winwood. Too bad he’s English.

The problem I have with these yahoos is that when the turds hit the turbine impellers, the poop never flies quite as neatly as their training classes would lead you to believe.

I go back to a previous comment I made on another thread: People would benefit a whole lot more if they learned (and were trained) to recognize trouble before they got into it or before the trouble got close enough to them to require an armed response.

I’m not interested in being “high speed, low drag” (whatever the dickens that twaddle means). I’m interested in getting through my day, attracting the least possible attention from either the perps or the boys in blue. I’m interested in being the big guy in the room that no one notices, the guy who can move through public attracting the least possible attention from anyone, the guy who when someone asks “Did you see that big guy over there?” the people in the area say “What guy? Where? What?”

Too many of these recent trainers seem intent on making their students stick out in a crowd like a freak from Burning Man plopped into the middle of a state funeral. At some point, that’s going to not work out well for some of these students.

There’s a maxim taught to me during private pilot classes that applies here: “A superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid getting into situations requiring superior flying skills.”

I don’t see what the big problem is if people are looking at these classes realistically. I’m just a regular civilian. I go down my personal checklist and have been through many solid fundamentals and force on force classes to build skills I may actually use in real life as someone who carries. I’m in good shape, got my head screwed on straight when it comes to avoiding trouble and keeping out of bad situations, and have a lot of martial arts experience.

So why not take a fun fantasy camp style class now and then if I have the time and can afford it? Even if I may never use the skills in real life it might be fun and I may learn something new that I can apply to a more realistic set of skills.

If people are taking a weekend class and thinking they’re now Rambo then that’s their problem, not the instructors. Even if it’s marketed that way people are free to use their brains and realize they might not be able to use their night vision carbine 3 ninja skills to fight off diabetes. I’d imagine most of these advanced classes have pre requisites so as long as everyone can do it in a safe manner then have at it.

If fantasy camp classes are more popular than fundamental classes that’s a problem with the mindset of the students. I’m not going to begrudge an instructor for meeting a demand and running a business. Its up to you to make the determination as to whether or not something is worth your time and money and separate quality from flashy bullshit. On the other hand I think anytime something gets popular or starts bringing in a lot of money there is going to be a backlash from the “cool kids.”

Here’s my thing, they are focused on combat shooting. Self defense is not combat shooting, there is so much more to self defense than blasting large amounts of lead.

Funny didn’t RF take a Sig Academy class with his M4gery, with a focus on combat shooting? He also said it was one of the better training events he did (I paraphrase). Yet criticizing Travis Haley and the bunch who offer these same classes that RF has taken? Hmmm? I guess it is/was a slow news day?

I have zero problem with these guys Haley, Costa, Pincus, Lamb, et.al., offering this type of class. These guys have put many more rounds down range (and in combat) than I have, and I can learn something from them. Everything has it’s time and place. Is it always practical to a DGU, which may or may not occur in our own separate lives? That’s a definite maybe. I just enjoy hearing things go bang, and admire the skill and professionalism that many of these instructors bring to their training classes. I figure I can always learn something new, that allows me to think and see things I may or may not have considered, no matter the subject. Always keep learning is my motto.

My two pennies.

Boards don’t hit back. Rather, steel plates and paper targets don’t shoot back. Training with these guys is a waste of time and money. Even those who have the best training are still human and can be killed very easily. How many tier one operators have been killed by a poorly trained insurgent armed with a RPG and a little luck? The only way to positively survive an armed encounter is to avoid one altogether. Just go to the range, become moderately proficient with your firearm, and hope luck is on your side if you ever have to use it. Or you can carry 2 flashlights, service pistol, spare magazine (again, 2 please), BUG, knife, and spend thousands of dollars making these scam artists rich if that makes you feel better.

anybody that directs a ad hominem attack against these trainers is completely missing the point. i mean, jesus christ, can you anti-operators on here prop up any more strawmen? here’s a machete!

we know that first and foremost, you avoid trouble and draw your gun only when absolutely necessary. not drawing unnecessary attention to yourself and simply driving off when somebody is trying to carjack you is a example of get off the X being applied to the civilian world. if any of you actually were taught to get off the X and applied it in a combat environment, you would see how this can apply to our everyday world.

Also, these courses and instructors are not intended to be the end-all, know-all (and they dont act like it either). they’re intended as tools for gun owners to put in their toolbox. and of course they cover the worst case scenario, which is a shootout with multiple assailants. what did you expect? a classroom?

it seems when a instructor does something different because it is more efficient and easier (like a tactical reload), those know-it-alls that arent professionally trained or experienced get their egos bruised. The problem isn’t instructors like travis haley; its those gun owners that “know it all” and think they dont need training because theyll rise to the occasion when they need to and they’re “not police or military”. its the same tired bullshit. Grow up. meanwhile, the sensible gun owners like me will continue to put tools in our toolboxes and squash our egos so we can become better people.

I think to an extent firearms training has devolved from the glory days of zero fluff and extensive focus on the basics as defined by the likes of Cooper and Chapman to way too much “operator” kind of crap that seems to have an unhealthy focus on marketing/upselling as many different classes as possible.

From the best gunslingers in our history to Grandma who has a gun but never fired it till she needed it, none of them needed gun mounted lights and lasers, multiple flashlights or goofy moves that honestly only complicate a situation that goes down fast and hard. Basics, basics, basics and common sense. That’s what has saved the good guys and gals for centuries. But…..

Classes and training can be a great way to go as long as a person takes a step back, gets real and considers what exactly they are training for. It’s way too easy nowadays to get absolutely convinced that you need to turn a perfectly good 7lb home defense AR into a 30lb monstrosity with every “must have game changing” doo-dad attached to it along with all the fancy training classes on how to use them.

Case in point. Firearms for both sporting and defense have been my passion for 25 years and one topic I still can’t wrap my head around is the common advice about weapon mounted lights. You’re supposed to absolutely have one but then again you shouldn’t use it because it will “give away your position”. If you don’t use it then how the hell can you identify your target and why even have it?

if i could afford this kind of training i would definitely shoot for it(yes, pun intended). there are many people who wish they’d had some kind of tactical training, or rather they would but they’re dead.

having a “well regulated” militia doesn’t mean it’s bogged down with counter-productive ROEs, excessive bureaucracy, and layer upon layer of red tape; it means something akin to “well trained, equipped(armed, as in with gear and weapons just as good as the military’s), and coordinated”.

Only with their over-reliance on inane jargon and with some of their fanboys. All the respect in the world to Haley – seems like a good guy and good trainer, but every third word out of his mouth, it seems, is critical incident response dynamic situation disruptive environment thinker not learner etc..

I’m all in favor of taking classes with the former DEVGRU and Delta guys who are teaching these days, I plan to do it myself – but I’ve got no Red Dawn fantasies or belief that the training is useful to my daily life. The knowledge in and of itself is interesting to me.

“the high spark of the low-drag boys”
Brilliant.

I tried really hard to not comment on this one. And I lasted two whole days, but then I saw the new banner ad on this site from mission first tactical and nearly choked:

“Superior assaulter/operator driven advanced arms accessories”

REALLY? Did someone finally realize that operators usually connect phone calls and drive garbage trucks (nothing against garbage men) so they had to come up with a new pronoun? Assaulter? Boy, that is cool and dangerous sounding. I didn’t want to cast dispersions on the wide range of civilians that practice combat tactics. But self-described “Tactical-Assaulters” are tacit-asshats and deserve all the scorn we can muster.