Stockton gang members (courtesy sacramento.cbslocal.com)

“Stockton [California] is moving forward with a million-dollar effort to reduce shootings by training and paying suspected violent offenders to put down their weapons and make something of their lives,” kcra.com reports . . .

Stockton, CA City Council (courtesy twitter.com)

Council members voted 6-1 in favor of the program, which promises to decrease gun violence, after a heated public comment session during Tuesday’s city council meeting.

So how much are taxpayers shelling out for the Advance Peace program? Nada.

Stockton Mayor Michael Tubbs was able to recruit funding from four philanthropic organizations to cover the cost . . .

Participants will be eligible for up to $1,000 a month.

The program lasts 18 months. After the first six months, participants who reach certain benchmarks will receive financial incentives to stay on track . . .

The program promises to achieve a 50 percent reduction in the number of shootings over four years.

Good idea?

91 COMMENTS

    • Dunno exactly, but it’s way more than a grand. There are other alternatives, though.
      1. Rent them out as laborers.
      2. Exile them to some distant or inaccessible place.
      3. In Brazilian slums the police make use of what is politely known as “extra-judicial execution”.

      • Lobotomize them and send them back to the negligent parents who didn’t raise them properly.

        That was done a lot in the 40’s and 50’s until do-gooder progressives got into the act.

      • The present welfare state is basically one gigantic eugenics program… just selecting for useful slaves rather than productive members of society.

    • Sounds good to me. Offer welfare recipients a one time $1000 bonus to get snipped. Our current system incentivizes our society’s failures to breed. There’s no reason people who’ve proven incapable of caring for themselves shouldn’t be rewarded for not producing another generation of failure.

  1. In the short term, it might seem like a good idea: policing the crimes costs more than paying people not to commit them. But in the long term, it could easily turn into an extortion racket: pay us more or we’ll start killing people, or draw people looking for an easy buck who wouldn’t be criminals otherwise.
    It’s similar to negotiating with terrorists: if people learn they can get something by threatening people, some will take advantage.

    A better program would be one that teaches the potential criminals to do something productive.

    • Private $$$ funding it? Suit yourselves.
      If it were public (ie: MY) $$$, I’d have a few strings/caveats:
      1. First repeat violent offense: we kill you and demand a refund of any money paid from your family.
      2. Program participants will wear remote controlled exploding collars with GPS trackers (like in The Running Man).
      3. Program would only pay out to participants for three years but the collars stay on for six.
      🤠

    • In the short term, it might seem like a good idea, to anyone with fewer than two active brain cells. Criminals will take the money and commit crimes anyway. Have you never been stiffed by someone whom you paid to do something? Why would anyone imagine that criminals won’t stiff him from the word go?

  2. Kipling said it best:

    And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
    But we’ve proved it again and again,
    That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
    You never get rid of the Dane.

    It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
    For fear they should succumb and go astray;
    So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
    You will find it better policy to say:–

    “We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
    Nor matter how trifling the cost;
    For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
    And the nation that plays it is lost!”

    • Kipling was what came to mind for me too.

      Another way of putting it would be: “Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute.” – Robert Goodloe Harper

    • If we’re talking Kipling, I was thinking more along the lines of …

      And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
      When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins
      As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn
      The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

  3. If it isn’t tax money going to it; I’m all for it. It may provide perverse incentives (ie the incentive to start a life of crime in order to get paid not to have a life of crime), but so long as it isn’t tax money funding it, people can do what they want with their money.
    However, I would be surprised if it actually makes any significant positive difference.

  4. These people are economic retards. They think that people who make $500/day selling drugs are going to give that up for $1000/month. Anybody who takes the money is either not committing crimes or they’re just scamming a system run by fools and committing the crimes anyway.

    • Did you know the average street level drug dealer makes less then minimum wage? The rest of the life is just hype. Rappers are telling fairy tails albeit with shittier ethics then those from childhood.

        • SO a little more than minimum wage, I think the original study I read included part time dealers as well

        • I call bullshit and not because it’s a Salon article but because I lived in the ghetto.

          Dealers live in shitty places for two major reasons: First, it’s where they get protection and second because they can’t exactly file tax returns. They can’t admit their income and they don’t want to since they get free housing close to the aforementioned protection and close to clients.

          These people live a tax free, cash based life with government bennies on top. Most of them are not hurting.

        • They beez hurting when deys get shot. Life expectancy isn’t that long with that life style; individual payouts won’t be long.

          If they do survive, retirement is almost non-existent. While they live the high life now of shitty cars, tattoos and girls, I live comfortably with my Honda Accord, one wife, two kids (the same momma) and half a million in my retirement account at the ripe age of 33.

        • I usually discount salon articles too. My experience living in the ghetto is probably different then yours ( east coast cities). I found that low level dudes dealing weren’t rolling (although in section 8, 20,000 is still a lot of money) but better off then the median. I don’t live in bad neighborhoods anymore, thank God, so my data might also be skewd 10 years. The Chicago tribune says its roughly 24,000 there but the article was a little dated.

      • ‘Did you know the average street level drug dealer makes less then minimum wage?’

        I highly doubt it since ‘minimum wage’ is an hourly rate. I think you’re comparing a 40 hours at minimum wage to 2 hours as a street level drug dealer. Greed isn’t the only reason one becomes a drug dealer, laziness is a big factor in most.

      • I work around these tools for a living. None of them have famous rapper level money but, they can rake in an absolute fuck ton of cash dealing. On a good week they can make 20 grand. That’s right, I said, on a good WEEK. That’s why the local dope boy goes right back to dealing every single time he gets out of prison.

        • $24k (net pay and tax free) is still $1000 every 2-weeks. Its a livable wage in most places especially if OUR taxes are paying for everything else. Thats more disposable income than I have after paying for home, heat, water, and food.

  5. Extortion $ before they even ask for it! I’d say the people involved in funding and allowing this program really need to work on their understanding of human nature.

  6. Liberal stupidity at its finest. This type of program has been tried before and does not work. Why wouldnt we pay all felons not to commit crimes? We could reduce law enforcement costs, close jails and prisons and use those savings to pay for it all. Because it doesnt work thats why.

    We should build camps in the desert like we did in WW2 and house these criminals away from society. If you learn a skill you get one chance to stay out. Screw up and its back for life. A bologna sandwich 2x a day for food. Pink clothes, done. Medical care provided by incarcerated doctors and nurses, done.

    • “Medical care provided by incarcerated doctors and nurses, done.”

      There’s no shortage of docs busted for writing painkiller scripts, that’s for sure…

    • Yep. In the 60’s Chicago tried to turn the Blackstone Rangers into social workers. No dummies, the Rangers took the city’s money for as long as it lasted and continued with their lucrative drug business.

  7. Great idea! They can use the extra money to buy some decent guns, which would be a nice change of pace from all those rusty Hi-Points.

  8. I have heard of this, and from what I have heard of it, it apparently seems to work.

    *Provided* no, zero, zilch, nada taxpayer money is used, I’m all for it.

    If billionaires like Bloomie, Soros, and Leftist organizations like ‘The Joyce Foundation’ want to finance it, I’m all for it.

    That’s a little less money they could be spend attacking the 2A, as far as I’m concerned.

    Knock yourself out, guys…

  9. To introduce a new word “Danegeld.” A thousand years ago Viking raiders were paid to not rape pillage sack and burn English settlements. The only problem was this didn’t get rid of them.
    Remember the bully at school that demand a kids lunch money? He just kept demanding more.

  10. Bad idea even with private funds. Once those run out the politicians will pick up the tab with public funds. If anyone complains they will point to manufactured stats on this programs success and shame everyone into going along.

    Not to mention, as matter of principle this is about as wrong as you can get.

  11. The idiocy on display is absolutely astonishing. It never ceases to amaze me how these so-called ‘liberal policies’ always seem to lower my expectations of our elected officials.

    • I spent a month in Stockton one week. I had to work there TDY, with no option to decline. They offered me the manager’s position there… No way! I wouldn’t go back there if you paid me. A lot.

  12. The program lasts 18 months. After the first six months, participants who reach certain benchmarks will receive financial incentives to stay on track . . .
    Where I come from that’s called a JOB!
    politicians are (Deleted) (Deleted) worthless piles of (Deleted) maggot (Deleted) (Deleted)!

  13. It’s well documented that when the unemployment checks stop coming, more people find jobs. What do you think is going to happen when the “don’t shoot me” checks stop coming?

  14. I think some folks will see this one way. But let’s hope we can have open minds. The title “pay criminals not to commit crimes” attracts a certain response. Same kind of comment about guns is considered low dealing around here. The program includes harsh discipline, rewards, mentors and support.

    If you’re not a criminal you’ve learned certain behaviors that support your good behavior. (I bet you don’t drive the speed limit on expressways.) 🙂
    If you are a criminal you’ve learned certain behaviors that support that behavior. When adults show you that they want to depend on you it goes a long way to the youth feeling a part of society. The pay in this instance is chump change. These kids have $25k in their pockets.
    This program is cheaper than jail and is less expensive than the cost of the first responders etc.
    As a society we are trying to give a leg up to those who didn’t have the same experience that most of us had or wish we had. Only a few among us are psychologically ill. The rest to stop being crooked need to feel worthy, to be disciplined for messing up and to have actual good guidance and support.
    It is lazy on our parts to think “they” just want to be this way. It is lazy for the liberals to label gun owners as a “type” of person who chooses violence. Read the book “Nickel & Dimed”, if you think it is easy to live on minimum wage in America. So if you saw no way to feed your family what would you do? If you saw no men employed around you, what example do you have. Why aren’t these men employed? Records. Why? War on drugs. Why are they absent? War on Drugs. Ask Pres. Nixon about that.
    In Mass. bail for the same crime is $10k for a white and $20k for a black.
    It is hard to be poor in America. It’s made a crime. It’s hard to be white and poor. It’s harder to be black and poor. If you think it’s not true do some research.

    If a program gets bangers to stop banging and become productive then why not? You get PT after an accident. Your insurance puts your roof back on your house. Because of shared risk you don’t pay the value of this help and repair. Why not extend this to people’s lives?

    • —It is lazy for the liberals to label gun owners as a “type” of person who chooses violence. —

      Except this is demonstrably false. There are at least 82 million gun owners in the US. (24% of 330 million, the amount that admitted to Pew Research they “owned guns”. ) IF we were as violent as “the liberals” say there wouldn’t be an liberals.

      — So if you saw no way to feed your family what would you do?—
      me personally? I’d call the Mike Rowe foundation and beg and plead for a grant for skills training. I certainly wouldn’t decide the best thing to do would be “get my gun and take stuff from other people”.

      –If a program gets bangers to stop banging and become productive then why not? You get PT after an accident. Your insurance puts your roof back on your house. Because of shared risk you don’t pay the value of this help and repair. Why not extend this to people’s lives?—
      with everything in life you get out of it, what you put into it. YOU have to do the PT. YOU pay the insurance premiums before and after the roof incident. That’s the shared risk. What’s the shared risk in the gang bangers lives here? They get all reward with this program, with no risk. the exact opposite of what you want. {See above the Kipling poem about Dane-geld.)

    • It isn’t hard to be poor in America. In America, the poor have a pretty sweet existence compared to other countries’ conditions for the poor.

      The mythology of how “bad” the “poor” have it is rampant in the US. I’ve been into the houses of more than a few “poor” people, and they all have:

      – cell phones
      – cable TV
      – a pretty nice TV (nicer than mine, but then I don’t like TV’s or TV programming)
      – a washer & dryer
      – food (not necessarily good food, but there are foodstuffs in evidence)

      and often, more than enough money for illicit drugs, which ain’t cheap.

      • It never ceases to amaze me how you can drive through really poor neighborhoods where every house looks run-down, all the yards are dead, the cars are 10+ years old and look like crap, and every house has a directv dish.

      • Don’t forget the booze, cigarettes, lottery tickets, fancy clothes and sneakers for the “kids,” and pretty much anything else they really want. As a home health nurse, I went into thousands of these “poor” homes.

        Now, when I was 10 years old… a bit more than 60 years ago, my mother, sister and I lived for a little while on the street in our old, non-running car. We were lucky to have the car… Until mother found a job, and the Salvation Army helped her get working clothes and a flop house for us to sleep in for a little while. The job? Scraping the labels off the windows in new housing developments in So. Calif. There wasn’t any “minimum wage” then, I think. We survived and eventually did ok. No welfare then, thank God.

        No indeed. The Danegeld is never, ever appreciated by the “danes,” and certainly won’t discourage those inclined from a life of crime. Certainly won’t work any better than the “war on drugs” at reducing either crime or use of drugs.

    • “So if you saw no way to feed your family what would you do? ”

      Fair question. I would do exactly what I in fact, DID do, when I was 17 and in love. I did not HAVE a family until I was, in fact, able to provide for them. It is such an obvious answer that it’s astonishing anybody would ask. Instead of getting married, pregnant, both, my lady and I graduated from high school, then college (200 miles apart), got professional jobs and worked for over 5 years before embarking on parenthood. Now our youngest is almost 38, and we’ve been married for 50 years. So why keep justifying culturally enabled murderous thugs with this “what would you do?” crap?

    • You’re wrong. I know because I know these types of people personally. It’s part of my career. They’re simply going to take advantage of you and laugh all the way to the bank with your money. But hey, whatever tickles you’re pickle. They can call it the Danegeld program.

  15. Yeesh. Stockton. Good luck. Spent a few months there. Some of the town is just awful. Lots of great people there, though. I hope this works. I do think recidivism is largely worsened by the lack of resources for these people. So I do think it helps for someone to say, “you are worth investing in.”

  16. If it’s funded exclusively by private money, then why is the city involved at all? Why was a vote necessary? What does the vote authorize or obligate the city to do? Countless millions of privately funded entities, including your own households, businesses, and even TTAG, make plans and run projects every day. None of them ever required a Stockton City Council vote. Why did this one? Because it’s a scam to get taxpayer money for a sham program.

    You see, the headline grabber is the payments to the criminals, supposedly by private funds. That gets heavy media attention and gets everyone on board with this. What they are very quiet about, is that the program has other features…..requiring other funding. “Ruh roh, Raggy!”, as Scooby would say.

    The program includes outreach teams, training, technical assistance and evaluation of the work. These people develop “life maps”, conduct daily check-ins with the criminals, engage in “transformative travel” (I guess some kind of field trip/junkets?), internships, and elders circle/intergenerational mentoring (aka, sitting around chit chatting and B.S.ing), subsidized employment, behavioral therapy, and MORE.

    The program obligates the city to provide all the data needed to run this, plus city personnel, on city time and dime, to work with the outside groups collecting the money.

    They’ve done this in dozens of other cities, most recently in August in Sacramento. There, the CITY voted to pay $1.5 MILLION for all of these other, associated activities. So even though the cash-for-criminals component is $1 million in allegedly private funds, the bulk is another $1.5 million in city funds. That’s why they needed the vote. From the Stockton resolution:

    BE IT RESOLVED BY THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF STOCKTON, AS FOLLOWS:

    “1. The City of Stockton hereby includes in its 2018-22 public safety planning, a commitment, support and partnership with Advance Peace…[…]”

    That means the city will budget for this. By the way, in Sacramento, the ACTUAL contract with these people is controversial.

    Ambiguities abound in theor contract with the Advance Peace program, including when the program would receive payment versus deliver results, which local partners to include from the Sacramento community to implement the program and how to require Advance Peace to MATCH CITY DOLLARS.

    *****SCAM SCAM SCAM******

    • So you’re telling me that the government in CA and the media are in cahoots to pull one over on the people to redistribute wealth and increase government influence? I am shocked!!!

  17. With my work ethic, I could easily not commit four times the amount of violent crimes as these amateurs, in the great city of Stockton. I eagerly await the first of my $4,000.00 monthly payments.

    • I say we get five or six guys together, head to Stockton and set up a company. Get us a storefront, put up a sign “Mayhem, Murder, Arson and Mugging, Inc.” Print up some business cards and we put up a web site, where we list our CV’s and our ability to take down a city at whim.

      We should make sure we give the city a credible 24/7 threat of mayhem, for which they pay us to not execute. Let’s say we blow up a power substation, mug a few elected officials and burn down some municipal properties as a calling card. Then we name our price to not do this any more. Let’s say six guys, $4K/month, that’s $24K/month.

      Hmmm. That’s too low. We need to cover overhead. What with the cost of healthcare after Obama got done jacking the health insurance markets around, each one of us should budget at least $2500/month for health insurance. Rents in California are absurd, so we’ll need another $10K/month for a storefront, utilities, vehicle coverage, etc.

      Let’s say we call our price out at $50K/month for six guys to not commit random mayhem, arson, muggings and murder. That should keep us funded.

      Then we sit back as the checks roll in.

      • “Let’s say we blow up a power substation, mug a few elected officials and burn down some municipal properties as a calling card.”

        Cripes, DG.

        No need to go that far. With a simple bolt-action rifle in a major caliber, substations (and whatever they are connected to) will go dark for a *long* time.

        And the rest will be taken care of by the ‘locals’ in short order…

  18. Sounds like a great idea.

    We pay cops to do their job. Since evidently that doesn’t work we can use that money instead.

    • You pay the police to show up and document stuff that already happened. At least you get something from them. What’s the last thing you got from a gang member, other than a bag of weed and a errant round?

  19. I predict, with a likelihood asymptotically approaching 1.0, that this program will fail.

    The only way that someone with a pulse is suggesting this program with a straight face is because they’re ignorant of a great, great deal of human history. Ideas like this have been tried before in many shapes and sizes, and they always, always, always fail.

    Posters above mentioned Danegeld. That’s one large instance. There was tribute paid to various raiders across human history, from the Mongols to the Turks and Muslims from the middle east, there were the various tribes who extracted tribute from the Roman Empire in the later days, you name it.

    This is an idea that never, ever works. It’s been proven across cultures, across time, across continents. It never works. It doesn’t work with mobsters coming into your shop to demand extortion money to leave your business alone, it doesn’t work with playground bullies shaking a kid down for his lunch money. It never works.

    So let’s be charitable. Let’s assume that those proposing such a program aren’t so ignorant of history and human nature. Why then, would they propose this program? Occam’s Razor tells us to not try to look for complicated answers when simple answers will fully explain a problem. Here, that means the answer to “why would someone do this then?” is that the policymakers are in cahoots with the gang bangers, and they’re just siphoning money into criminals’ pockets with an expectation of getting a cut on the side at some later time.

    • Have to disagree, DG. Such a program will NEVER fail, unless the dipshits who voted for it are removed from office. Most years, they will be able to prove such a dramatic effect on crime, that eventually they will decide to drop the private funding, since it gets in the way of administering a multi-billion dollar a year program. They can prove that wonderful result so long as they control the databases and reporting requirements.

      • Yea, you’re right – they’re going to game the stats.

        People who actually live in the city of Stockton will take issue, but the elected poseurs will pat them on their heads, saying “See? Your perception is incorrect…” whilst waving the cooked numbers under their noses.

  20. Based on Stockton demographics using that money to repatriate anyone who isn’t White or Asian would reduce all crime (not just violent crime) by 94%

  21. “Question of the Day: Pay Criminals Not to Commit Crimes?”

    This program already exists all over the US. It’s called Welfare, and while it doesn’t help the people who receive it, it sure helps the Democrats who pay it with OPM (other people’s money).

  22. Whutta EFFEDUP world we live in…right is wrong,black is white and good is evil. We need a real life PUNISHER😖😩😎

  23. All carrot and no stick??? Gang members do not act/be “tough” because they are poor, they do it for RESPECT (otherwise known as domination of other humans). Hopeless waste of taxpayer dollars.

    • Uh… they’re not using taxpayer dollars!

      You may know criminology, but you don’t know how to read very well…

  24. “The program promises to achieve a 50 percent reduction in the number of shootings over four years.”

    What happens if the “promise” doesn’t get fulfilled? Do the people that voted for it get kicked out of office? Do they personally have to pay back the private funds?

    A “promise” with no backing is an empty promise.

  25. I have a “Modest Proposal”:

    How about not paying them in $$$ but pay them in kind….kinda..

    A one time payment in lead. No recidivism and no incarceration costs.

    It will eventually approach 100% reduction in crime.

    • Oh, hell yeah, we could do “modest proposals”! My turn. Send each recipient a note, “running out of funds, only able to pay the first ten guys who show up at 1100 S. 1st St. at 9:00 tonight.” When you show up at 9:02, there will only be 10 there, the rest will be dead. Shoot the 10, send me the money, everybody is happy.

  26. You can’t pay a criminal enough money. Crime does pay and it pays well. The downside is getting caught; a successful politician doesn’t have to worry about that.

    At least they are not stealing money from the people in order to pay off the criminals. When they decide to steal money from the people, after they realize things aren’t changing much, they should spend it on arming and training victims instead.

  27. Why not give these criminals free pot? Or are the state officials concerned about loss of tax revenue? The three L’s, Libertarians Liberals and the Left all said when I was growing up in Sacramento “if everyone just smoked pot the world would be a safer place”.

    Why not pay them to not murder death kill or steal.? Since the three L’s hate cops, then don’t arrest them. Don’t fill up the jails. Just pay them. That should protect your Libertarian pot head utopia in California.

  28. There is no excuse for criminal activity. This is a paid internship. A paid internship gets you experience in a field so you can choose to pursue it. It gives you experience with people in that field who manage, direct, coach, and possibly recommend the intern for hire.
    The interns, post internship, have an advantage over their peers in the job market because they now possess experience and the time spent documented on their resume’. Recommendations on this resume’ will show the quality of the applicant’s work habits.
    There is no excuse for criminal activity. Actual enforcement of laws would limit who is disturbing society.

  29. How many times do liberals have to try the same BS before they realize it doesn’t work. Every time this is tried, most of the thugs will continue to commit crimes, and thanks to some government funding, they up their crime game a bit.

    There has to be some underlying scheme hatched by the liberals, because, well, everything they do has an alterior motive and these programs defy logic.

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