The video above shows robbers mugging a bicyclist in South Africa. It’s something of a Rorschach test. Gun control advocates will see it as proof positive that robbery victims should comply with their attackers to avoid violence – avoiding any mention of victims who comply with their attackers and “still” pay the price with their life. Gun rights advocates see it as a situation where a firearm could have prevented the possibility of serious injury or death – pointing out that there’s no way of knowing that the robbers would refrain from physical violence. Can you see it from both points of view? If you had a gun, what would you have done?
Yes. I would have drawn.
At 0:25 gun drawn. AT 0:26, first four shots in chest of bad guy. If the others did not run away after that then I have 12 more for them and another 15 round mag and the first guy’s pistol. This was an easy one.
The first time I took my wife to the range, she put 6 shots dead center from 7 yards with a Ruger LC9. She turned to me and said “I could kill somebody”. I said “yes you shoot very well”. She said “No, I mean that I could do it if I had to”. She was talking about the mentality it takes as well as accuracy and confidence.
Not sure I would make the same decision. Yes at 0:26 he has the bike and the gun in the same hand which would slow him down but I am not sure by how much. His reaction time is probably .4 to .5 secs. My time to first shot from concealment is probably 1.5 secs. Seems like a quick draw contest to me and not great odds when he already has the gun out, even if he is an idiot. It is hard to outdraw someone who already has their gun out.
“It is hard to outdraw someone who already has their gun out.”
Seems the biker’s best opportunity was about the 10-12 second mark to either haul ass or to get down to it.
Yeah I’d say no go at :26, goons 2 and 3 havent really shown up on the scene yet… my take is at :11 put the hammer down and run… that doesnt work then next opportunity to act different is :31 when both goons are looking at the bike/ground havent patted down our poor rider yet, and goon 3 is visible but not really in range yet.
You fail to see the entirety of the situation. The reaction time for the assailant does not start when you first start to draw your gun. His reaction time starts when he sees it. Even at 0.2 seconds (my reaction time) he could not bring the gun up to get a shot off before you squeeze off the first round. Watch the video again and see how the biker is emptying his pockets/backpack. He hands over his iPhone and other belongings. If your weapon is concealed and you are “complying” by handing over all your valuables, a slow deliberate deployment of a weapon, even a knife, would bee seen too late for the skinny crackhead to react. You could have even dropped the iPhone then gone for the gun. You really need to think about these things before hand. I agree that at first sight at distance was optimal but that portion of the video at 0.25 just popped out at me as a good time to fight.
FoRealz, the gun is out but pointed away and he is holding the bike with the same hand.
Tex300BLK, why wait for his partners to show up? Fighting one at a time is better that 2 or 3.
Same here… it ain’t about the bike, it’s about stopping a thug.
If someone is pointing a gun at me, I don’t much give a damn exactly what they want, they’re doing something that warrants shooting.
I view it as saving the life of the poor SOB they’re going to kill someday. Sooner or later, someone who is into armed robbery will step up to murder.
And I would laugh at them as they ran away.
Did he have a gun? yes.
Was he taking my shit? yes.
Did he have zero situational awareness? yes.
Yup. lead salad for three coming up.
HAHA! Lead Salad…. Nice… I’ll be using that one later.
While that is good, I prefer stating that someone administered high-speed lead therapy.
These fine upstanding gentlemen would get a dose of “metallic behavior modification” from me.
Me too. That’s funny
I’d start and stop this list with:
Did I believe I was in imminent danger of serious bodily harm? If yes, defend myself.
Let’s just say that I’d be riding my bike home afterwards.
and it would have started 47 seconds into the video.
17 seconds in is the best time. He is definitely pointing at you but he has yet to close in. Side step while drawing and if you are good at it, keep moving while shooting or else get yours on target from a stationary position. I will take my chances at distance of being the more accurate shot. Likely he would run away. Thugs want your stuff, not a fight.
I stated above that at 26 seconds in is where I would make my move. If you did not draw yet, this is your next opportunity. Even a knife would have worked there. The idiot has the gun in the same hand that he is holding the bike with while reaching for your wallet with the other hand. I would bring my knife out in place of the wallet, slice the back of the gun hand and check with my off hand while slashing up and across the throat. Good idea to practice this ahead of time.
Shooting them after you have been robbed and they are leaving would be trouble, legally.
Damn, I guess I’m not the only person who reads TTAG and Pinkbike. For what it’s worth, these clowns were apparently caught pretty quickly, since they neglected to steal the most valuable thing the guy had, which also happened to be filming them.
And yeah, the second his gun was pointed in a safe direction I’d have plugged him and his friends.
Yeah.. you got to love the fact that they didn’t take the $400 GoPro that also could be used to identify them.
Yeah, well, criminals aren’t exactly known for their sharp, rapier-like wit, nor their wisdom, or intelligence. Y’know. 😉
Well did look to be Obuma;’s son.
Oh, I agree. It just proves how stupid this guy was… he even looked directly at the damn camera! It’s like in the 90’s when the young criminal class would run from the police while wearing shoes with flashing red lights… or now a days where somebody steals something and brags about it on Facebook or makes a YouTube video about what they stole. You just can’t teach that kind of stupid.
I would have drawn on them just because of the go pro. That would have meant I had their faces recorded which would have been proof of their crime and I would be even more fearful for being snuffed as soon as they had my possessions. Fortunately these guys make Dylan look brilliant.
My mountain bike is custom that cost $6k,…yes I would draw…shoot? No way…its just a bike, but if I can get it back without harming someone sure.
One of them is definitely armed and has pointed a gun at the victim and there are two others. There’s a clear and imminent threat of bodily harm. If someone’s riding off on my MTB I’m reaching for my phone or car keys. If someone has a gun, and they threatened me with it, I’m reaching for my Glock.
I’m not a mind reader. I have no idea what the other guys intentions are when he brings a gun. I only know what a gun is capable of and the fact things happen fast, too fast to be in reactive mode.
You would draw but not shoot…? That sounds like a terrible attitude. I would only draw if I intended to shoot. If between drawing and shooting something happened to change my mind, like the robbers surrendering or turning around to run away, all the better.
Drawing only when you intend to shoot is not really the best mindset, there are many situations where that may place you behind the curve. Not to mention maining the idea that if the gun is drawn it must be fired is not the soundest most responsible mindset.
If there is a reasonable possibility deadly force may be needed draw down and prepare to defend yourself.
It may be nitpicking, but I didn’t say “when” I intend to shoot, I said “if”. As soon as I’ve made the determination that the situation I’m in is potentially life-threatening, I now intend to fight back with the best tool at my disposal (a gun if I’m carrying). All I’m saying is I don’t draw a gun before I’ve determined the situation warrants using it.
Also, read my comment again. I said pretty clearly that between drawing and shooting, I may change my mind if the situation develops favorably. I’d rather not shoot if I don’t have to.
That doesn’t mean you can’t change your mind about shooting if the situation changes in the 1.5s it takes to come on target.
The cost of the bike is irrelevant. Thinking that you should use lethal force based on cost of items stolen is the same as being a paid assassin. You are killing for money. The moral dilemma here is the fact that you are being robbed forcefully and you should use force against that. If I was penniless and a guy tries to rob me and I can get the drop on him, he’s gone. It aint about money.
I was thinking about posting the same thing. Well put. I agree 100%.
“It aint about money.”
Bingo. Another “well said” from me.
There’s a reason robbery is classified as a violent crime against a person, not as a property crime.
This is robbery, not theft. There is a very big difference.
I could see the money (or value of an item) being relavent. Perhaps the dude is stealing all the money you have and without it you family doesn’t eat. Or it could be a child’s medication.
Sorry, but this is wrong. Robbery, with or without a weapon, is a violent crime.
It’s the physical attack and use of (or threat of) violence that constitutes robbery. Robbery is not larceny and it’s not burglary.
The amount of money at risk in the ‘theft’ part of the robbery is irrelevant. If he kills you for $1 or $100,000…you are the same dead. It is the risk of death or serious injury that makes robbery what it is – and most of the time would be justifiable for deadly force.
Also, there is some recent preliminary data suggesting that the odds of surviving a robbery without yourself going to the hospital or morgue is about 50-50 even if you. cooperate and give it up…no matter what the bad guy is stealing.
The price of your bike is not relevant.
…taptaptaptap–click. Reload. Re-acquire.
Bad thread title. They are not bicycle thieves, they are armed robbers! WTF, Robert. Yes, they guy had a gun. He could have taken them out. No, wait, it was in South Africa. 🙁
Armed robbery is armed robbery…
Having Lived in SA – Actually I grew up there – And primary mode of Transport was a bicycle. I actually at one time planned on gettting a firearm for safety. Even 20 years ago bike jacking was a big sport – and I rode with a relative certainty that I was going to get a cricket bat to the back of my head one day. Never happened, but it was a common enough occurance. Had I been jacked at gun point, and carrying, I would have handed over my bike and then promptly served up some “Lead Salad” at the soonest possibilty.
It would be VERY difficult to draw safely when shredding a trail.
also very difficult to shoot you from a dead run and 20-30 yards away from you while you are shredding and only a few yards away from what looks like pretty decent cover, in a similar situation I would shred on until I was sure I was far enough away to stop and call for help. This guy was already at a full stop before the goon even stopped and brought his gun to bear on the rider… I would be out of there faster than Lance Armstrong on EPO
This guy never “shredded” a trail in his life. He has a lot of expensive toys and is just out cruising. If it was me, I would have bunny hopped that RR crossing. This guy stopped like he was piloting a school bus. Not saying I am 100% immune to robberies but they do use some method to choosing victims. That guy on foot would have never come within 40 yards of me. They were waiting for some slow poke to come along. He had no situational awareness.
lets see the cost of a bike vs a (potential) lawyer if the thief doesn’t want to hurt me he can have the bike assuming i cant GTA it back
What do you mean “doesn’t want to hurt me”?
Whether the thief “wanted” to hurt the bike rider or not is beside the point. The thief pointed a gun at the bike rider – which puts his life at risk. If a weapon is pointed at you, that is a clear statement of intent and a clear justification to use deadly force in self-defense. Or is it ok to get shot if the shooter “didn’t mean to” do it?
if he had no intent to hurt then why did he have a gun? Show me your gun I’ll show you mine, difference is though you can be certain I’m not going to wait for you to shoot first.
Well as with most incidents in live you can’t just lay out a blanket automatic yes/no. Some little punk kid steals something from me I’m not going to shoot hit. But I see ANYONE draw a gun on me I’d put the ENTIRE magazine in them.
dont drop the soap…
..well unless you have a micro pistol or 1911 with low ammo capacity, I dont think you could get away with shooting an attacker to slide lock with a duty capacity 9 or 40 even in Texas or some other free state… not if it went to a jury.
Well honestly that was a purposeful exaggeration but I still stand by the sentiment. If your life is threatened then you do what you have to do to.
Yeah, saw this on BikeRumor as well. I think if the rider was packing and could have stopped even sooner to give more time to draw his weapon, go to cover and then the scum would have probably run off at that point or if not then I would start shooting. I do MTB a lot and I do carry in a handlebar pack but not on my person, may have to rethink that method, but I hate backpacks…
“Bike thieves” the those guys who sneak into your yard in the middle of the night and ride off with your Schwinn. These guys are armed robbers who might be planning to leave your corpse in the woods.
We had a problem like this last year with a gang of teens repeatedly assaulting and robbing riders along a popular park bike path. Some riders were seriously injured, though none killed.
There’s no assurance that they intend “only” to beat and rob you, or that the beating will be only minor scrapes and bruises. When they’re brandishing a gun, as well, the assumption must be that this is life or death. Take the shot as soon as you can. Even if you end up shot yourself, you’re very likely to survive it, and much more likely to survive if you’re shot while exchanging fire, as opposed to just standing there taking their shots.
And what about putting your bike between you and the attacker—if you can—then throwing it in their direction when they’re close enough? That’ll be a distraction and keep their hands busy long enough to allow you to start sending lead at them.
Your suggestion is a fine strategy if you do not recognize their attack until they are right on top of you.
In this case the cyclist saw the attacker coming from roughly 50 yards/meters away. Distance is always your friend and the farther away your attacker is when you begin shooting at him/her, the better your chances … especially when your attacker has a small handgun. If this doesn’t gel for you, imagine trying to accurately shoot something 50 yards away with a small handgun while moving and under fire? It is next to impossible. Of course the same principle applies whether you are the attacker or the defender. And that is fine as long as you survive their attack since that is the primary goal. Whether or not you manage to hit your attacker is incidental.
If he is 50 yards away and you do anything other than put the hammer down and ride off into the cover that was maybe 10 yards in front of the rider, then you are foolish or very slow rider. If you shoot him at that distance you would have hard time justifying it. Now I judged the distance to be closer to 30 yards (11 seconds on the video), and even at that distance to me with that big wall of trees intersecting the path just in front of me, I would have stood up on the pedals and busted it out of there. At that point the attacker was in a dead run with his gun low, not up and ready, at that distance you would have to be someone like Instructor Zero to get the drop on someone riding full speed perpendicular to you for the woods on a bike.
In terms of legal justification for self defense, for the most part it doesn’t matter how far away someone is if they are armed and robbing you.
As for speeding away, a person on foot can accelerate WAY faster than a person on a bicycle, especially if the cyclist was in a high gear. If the cyclist could speed away, great. I didn’t see that possibility in this video.
The ideal response, in my opinion, was to start shooting at the attacker as early as possible while either ditching the bike for cover or trying to speed away.
The acceleration thing is generally not true if you are wearing cleats/clipped in and in any kind of decent shape, and presuming you are like most cyclist and not in you biggest front chain ring or havent shifted down all the way to you r lowest gears either ( a bike is not like a car you dont have to downshift every time you slow down), youve just gotta stand up and really rock the bike back and forth while pulling up and pushing down with the feet to get moving. In a foot race, a very fast runner might get the drop on you for 5 to 10 yards but then you will dust them. I’ve mountain biked off and on for over a decade, and on flat hardpack like the area this guy was in, from a slow roll (conditions identical to this situatio) unless that thief is Usain Bolt, I’m through the tree line and well on my way down the road before I am concerned about him getting a shot off at me.
First off, pretty dumb thieves, rob a guy at gunpoint…
Mountain bike – check
wallet and other belongings – check
400 dollar gopro clipped you your helmet with all of our faces recorded on it – no thanks
Now on to my reaction, for a moment there it looks like he could have blow past the first attacker while he was still on the bike? He probably shouldnt have slowed down for the rail crossing, but even slowed down, that guy was probably 20-30 yards from the first moment I saw him and he was in a dead run so gun wasnt ready, thats a tough shot to make standing still at a target that isn’t moving. Would they try and shoot you for a mountain bike and what is their probability of hitting me? I would pedal the hell out of there. If the road ahead got tough and slow I would ditch the bike and un-holster, and assume as tactical a position as I could, off the trail and away from the bike.
Under the circumstances, it would be a tough call, assuming for what ever reason I stopped like the victim did and only one attacker, yeah I would probably take my chances and put one COM (remember they completely fleeced this guy so if you were packing that means giving them your gun or using it, I have seen many instances where the presence of a gun changes the demeanor of criminals, I woul dbe willing to bet that even if you unclip it and give it to them safely, you will likely get shot. Then comes the part where the other two goons come rolling up… you would be done at that point. Gotta keep the head on a swivel. So again I say when you have the option of flight, use it, you are on a wheeled vehicle and your attacker is at a huge disadvantage (distance, running, and moving target). Unfortunately judging by his wimpering compliance our poor victim probably assumes that all handguns are heat seeking death rays and all goons with guns never miss, so in light of that his response is completely understandable.
Yeah I’d say the first rule of a gun fight is not to get into one if you don’t have to, heh.
problem with running is that you have no idea how good a shot that guy is or if there is backup waiting for you down the trail.
Absolutely! If he has backup waiting down the trail he is probably even less likely to shoot me from a run… again, when I watched the video and saw where the attacker started, and saw how close the rider was to the woods, and realized the attacker was running and didnt even have his gun on the target… I would have been out of there. Thats me, and I stand behind that. The rider lost every last tactical advantage the moment his cleat touched the ground and the attacker was still at least 10 yards away at that point.
You mean to say you would hang around and try and take on the 3 armed attackers, 2 of whom you didnt see until you were already stopped?
Depends on a lot. I’d definitely not have waited to see if they were going to let me go, though. Not if a good opportunity presented itself. (which several seemed to)
EDIT: Oh, but if I thought I could flee, I’d have been out of there like lightning
“I’d definitely not have waited to see if they were going to let me go, though. “
Is this serious?
The ONLY way to know that is AFTER they kill you.
I’d definitely clear kydex. Probably wait probably a fraction of a second in case he wants to run, if not then two in the chest, 1 in the head. Rinse, wash, repeat for accomplice if he advances/draws.
Yes, I would have drawn and most likely shot them. Bad guy #1 pointed a gun at me, which is a threat against my life, and has very little to do with the bicycle or the stuff in my pockets.
Armed robbery? Armed response, always. I have no guarantees of safety based on compliance.
Strongarm robbery? if they outnumber me, I draw. Lesser threats get the collapsible baton and/or pepperspray.
“I have no guarantees of safety based on compliance.”
A thousand times…”YES!”
Are they armed? Yes? Gun gets drawn and the rest we will see as the situation develops.
This is armed robbery, not “bicycle thieves”. How do you know they won’t kill you as soon as they have everything they can take without searching your body? And even if they are not planning on killing you, they have robbed you of a critical part of your life: your human dignity. Your bike might not be worth fighting for, but your dignity as a human being is.
Read “A Nation of Cowards”, by Jeffrey R. Snyder – http://jim.com/cowards.htm
“Put aside, for a moment, the outrageousness of the suggestion that a criminal who proffers lethal violence should be treated as if he has instituted a new social contract: “I will not hurt or kill you if you give me what I want.” Jeffery R. Snyder
And yet this is something that people have been told for literally decades. A friend who lived in NYC once told me he carried a “mugger’s wallet” with him. It had a few bucks and he figured the muggers would be OK with that and leave him alone. He didn’t have an answer when I asked what would happen if they didn’t leave him alone. There’s an element of “blaming the victim” in this: if you didn’t have such nice stuff and if the robbers weren’t so poor . . . The assumptions in duty to retreat laws are based on this idea that affluent victims should share responsibility for the criminal acts committed against them. Stand your ground laws challenge this assumption in a very direct way.
I once had a part-time job tending beer at a little Minneapolis honky-tonk. At my training, the boss said, “If they rob you, give them the money. Don’t die for a hundred bucks!”
OK, I will go along with that – but how do you know that the money is all they want? How do you know they don’t feel like killing someone that night?
I would have been in a pickle. The only armament I had was the butt end of a broken cue stick. But this was in Minneapolis in the 1970’s, and it was really relatively safe there. Everybody’s heard of “Minnesota Nice,” and they’re proud of the horrible winters – it “keeps the riff raff out of the state.” 🙂
“If you put five rounds from a ten round magazine into a scumbag, is he half-full or half-empty?”
-Detective Harry Callahan
The Engineer will reply the mag is twice as big as it needs to be…
Adaptation of the old glass half full joke.
Anyways – I bike down here in Florida. I started carrying when a redneck thought it was great fun to sic his dog on me. Bike jacking is the same as carjacking here. Armed response is justified.
I actually did get assaulted on my bike — riding home from work at 12:30 AM. Two a$$holes pulled up next to me in a car and grabbed hold of my backpack and took me for a second’s ride before throwing me down. That was before I carried. Looking back, I would have been justified in drawing and shooting. So in this case, do unto others before they do unto you.
There is no way to know if comlpiance with an armed or potentially armed criminal will mean freedom from physical violence. I will bet on on my ability to defend myself with all available tools instead of the kindness of someone forcibly removing my property from me.
True that. I’d rather not have my life depend on someone who clearly does not hold it to any value.
After further viewing the video 5 or 6 times… at 31 seconds I would have made it rain, at that point goon 1 and 2 are both trying to grab the bike and not looking above the riders waist, goon 3 is still 15 yards off and walking not running. Rider still hasnt given them anything else other than the bike and what looks like his wallet and they didnt pat him down till later, so inserting myself, the gun lives in the jersey pocket at small of the back when I ride… when both of them grab the bike and are looking down it would be go time. Hopefully 3rd guy is smart and runs away but you still have enough time to deal with him before he becomes a serious threat.
Of course. If someone’s nicking my stuff (the operative word there being MY), then I would want to stop them. If you throw in possibility for serious bodily harm; i.e. a weapon, then I would definitely draw. And if someone’s stealing a bike, not a car, not a motorbike, a BIKE, then chances are their heart’s not really in the steal. Which makes for someone easily persuaded to FOAD with a gun.
As it progressed, they patted him down. If I hadn’t drawn by then I would have. The fact that they would then have my gun, possibly a real gun at that point would make it impossible to do otherwise. Giving you my wallet, cell phone and bike wont do me or anybody else damage. My gun on the otherhand…
If somebody intentionally points a gun at me in a threatening manner, he is going to get shot.
Two points: Lots of big talk about drawing on someone who has a gun pointed at oneself and executing a flawless doubletap then 360 scan and tact reload. Unless the armed robber was about to pull the trigger I’ll take the safer course of just letting him have the bike.
Second, some of us are way too eager to fire the shot in the name of self defense out of anger and disguising it as some sense of justice. Just let the dude have the bike, no bicycle is worth the strain on my conscience of killing a man over a *bicycle*. (Sure, defense of wife, kids, dog, yes, but a bike?)
Yes yes, self defense is a right, I agree. I am just saying my bar for killing a man is very high and I take it seriously and it bugs me how many people think “he’s got a gun pointed at me, that means I must defend myself! no matter what!” (because my ego is at stake).
“I’ll take the safer course of just letting him have the bike. “
That’s an assumption. You don’t know that is the safer course. Current data on robberies suggest otherwise (that it’s about 50-50…roll the dice and see what comes up).
As for drawing on dude with me already in his sights, you make a fair point. The counter point is “Action is faster than reaction,” but that takes a tremendous amount of training and practice to master. Again, roll the dice and see what comes up.
I’ve had guns pointed at me (several times). It’s a weird, eerie feeling looking down the barrel of a gun and wondering how close it is to all being over. Super human fantasies of skill and marksmanship were not at the forefront of my mind.
My guess is you haven’t been there yet.
Good for you.
I have, and its a decision you make based on a ton of information going by in your head faster then you can imagine.
In my case no action was taken by me.
My best friend died.
So certain things in life put other things in different perspectives.
Given the same chances and situation again.
Id like to think Bobby would still be here, and some Cretan who eventually killed another human but was caught that time and punished.
Might not have had that chance.
If I had acted.
I live with that every day……………what if ???
I’m plenty mean and operator and dynamic as f*ck and all that, just like the rest of you….but 3 vs 1 doesn’t sound like fun if the 3 aren’t hot chicks wearing lingerie. I’m afraid condition orange starts at approach, and condition red starts as soon as it even looks like they’re armed. I don’t like the idea of having to kill someone over a bike, but the one thing I don’t like even more? Me dying over a bike. So I’m not going to take that chance.
“over a bike”
It’s not over a bike, it’s over his willingness to hurt or kill you over that bike (like your last sentence alludes).
In my opinion, we need to stop thinking about robbery in terms of “the stuff” and stay focused on “the threat of violence.” That’s what distinguishes robbery from simple larceny.
I’ll leave this one here; it’s a good read:
But it’s not really “over a bike”, it’s actually over you. When somebody’s coming at you with a gun it’s never about stuff. I don’t bike much so this is a pretty abstract issue for me. But if I’m at a stop light and some guy with a gun is running towards me, I doubt I’d think he just wanted to show me his neat new gun.
You don’t know what they were after until they are through with you and the story ends. I will write my own ending. This story could have gone like this:
The video above shows robbers mugging a bicyclist in South Africa. He gave them the bike, his iPhone, all his money. Then they held him to the ground and took turns sodomizing him. When they were finished, one of the assailants smashed the bikers head in with a large stone. The killer’s face can not be seen on the video but you can hear the victim’s last gurgling breath as they leave him to die. Gun control activists will use this video to push for laws that all bike trails must have police bike patrols. When pushed on the issue Michael Bloomberg would not say how this program would be funded. Watch this space.
With the bad guys situational awareness and gun handling skills presented.
Id have tried to ventilated both before #1 got his gun in any position to fire it more then likely.
Particularly before he got a chance to pick at my pockets.
His gun was down and away at that time too.
Possessions have nothing to do with it as I see this deal.
Its me with some guy who’s willing to point a gun in my direction.
He better be willing to die doing the crime.
Im willing to try to rid the world of this type and put a stop to their behavior permanently if I can.
Call me judge and jury.
Its a risk Id have been willing to take rather then let him just walk away to do it again to somebody else.
Yeah, saw this video yesterday. Facepalm city. I realize it’s easy to Monday morning quarterback, but this is still a long series of stupid decisions by the guy on the bike.
Slowing down for the RR crossing was arguably things initially went off the rails, particularly if getting attacked for one’s bike is not uncommon in the area. Not getting hit by a train is nice, but Mk.1 Eyeballs are not you only tool (hint: trains make a lot of noise).
His first true frell up up though, was not immediately putting the pedal to the metal on seeing the guy trying to cut him off (~11sec mark). Go off the trail if need be (it IS a mountain bike, for Pete’s sake), but get out of the ambush zone. Even if you don’t get away completely, you have the attacker(s) off balance and out of their comfort zone, something you can turn to your advantage.
The second was at 21 seconds: proactively stepping away from the bike. I am reminded of a similar event that happened to my brother. Back when we were kids, (he was 9 at the time), three 6th graders tried to steal his Mongoose Diamondback. His response was to to use the bike a weapon and proceed to beating the ever loving crap out of these three older, larger boys with it. Bear in mind, the Diamondback was a full size, steel-frame BMX racer. If a 9 year old could manage it, there’s no excuse for an adult riding an alloy frame at maybe half the heft. If nothing else, he could have tossed to bike to the thief in order to tangle him up and buy time to go on the offensive.
The final, critical error was not having SOME kind of weapon. If the law takes a firearm off the table, carry a baton, a fixed blade knife, a stick, SOMETHING to defend yourself with. Use your weapon to take his gun. If the thieves flee at this point, you win. If they don’t, it’s time to pull the trigger.
Law and in my state would have let drop them because of the gun that was in play. Im now afraid of great harm or death. As someone else posted…….they would have gotten lead salad.
All I’m gonna say is my stuff is my stuff and your stuff is your stuff, don’t try taking my stuff or I’ll be in a very bad mood. If you would like to ask about my stuff or try out my stuff I might just let you.
Would I draw on a bicycle thief? Probably. Would I draw on a bicycle thief pointing a gun at me if he gave me a chance? You’d be stupid not to.
Turn around! That guy won’t hit him past 25 yards with that little pea shooter!
Hand over the bike in a clumsy manner, then draw down.
Shit my bicycle pants.
The main thief needs to be shot, if for nothing else, for wearing the dumb-looking wool, ear-flap hat, and the other one for wearing a turquoise ball cap. Each is a major fashion faux pas!
In 3 weeks, it’ll be winter in SA.
At the first opportunity, if I was convinced he might actually shoot me, Mr. Armed Robber and his accomplices would be rapidly and promiscuously perforated.
I didn’t ask him to stick a gun in my face and threaten to kill me. Victim selection error for him and his friends.
To me its not about the bike or the stuff. If you point a gun at me in anger, then I am going to point mine right back. The thief gave several opportunities for a draw.
Tired of hearing these antis blabber off and tell you “be a victim”. NO, I refuse. The aggressors are the ones that put a value on their own lives and my life as well, and when they do that, I will happily end them in preservation of my own. Is a bike worth taking a life? No it’s not, not when I’m setting the terms anyway. When someone else is setting the terms THEY agree to it, they say your bike or your life, my response is my life over yours. It’s no longer about the bike.
At 32 seconds in, perp puts his head down and stumpy comes into frame unarmed on the right. When perp puts head down, draw AIWB and contact shoot him in the head until he drops like lead for a CNS hit. Then shoot stumpy into the ground on the right and scan for any other perps. Which there is at least one more. If he chooses to run, no shoot. If he chooses to engage, get off the x and put him down.
In Texas under Title 2 Chapter 9 use of force/lethal force law, aggravated robbery greenlights the use of lethal force or less to defend oneself.
How are you justified shooting the second guy after the first one has been shot and stopped? #2 has no gun so how does he have the ability to kill you or inflict grave bodily harm? Unless he goes for #1’s gun I don’t see ability being satisfied. I can see how you would be found justified in shooting #1 and getting a murder conviction for shooting #2.
Multiple assailants. Neutralizing all immediate threats in the moment of threat. The fact that he is right there within bad breath distance and there is at least one gun in play (aggravated felony) is enough articulation for me to justify using lethal force against perp 2. I am not going to wait for him to bring a gun into play before acting. Action beats reaction.
If perp two sees my shots on 1 and begins to run away AND avoids reaching for anything or pointing anything back at me (like a gun), then he can run away copper-free.
The mere fact that he is involved in an aggravated robbery/felony at that distance makes him open to being shot to stop his threat.
I am not a lawyer. If I was on your jury, I would not be convinced by the argument you just made.
And just why would I assume he’s unarmed? All I know he is a robber engaged in armed robbery.
“Gun control advocates will see it as proof positive that robbery victims should comply with their attackers to avoid violence”
Which is why I tell them it’s just one more last resort. I get to choose to draw our not depending on the specifics of my situation. And point out that many people comply and are killed anyway, I ask “if you find yourself in such a predicament and it becomes clear that he’s going to kill you anyway, won’t you fight at that point? Wouldn’t you be better having the best weapon yet invented that will fit on your belt?”
Greg Ellifritz talked about this as well.
Armed robbery? Equivilent to a car jacking? Yep I would shoot. Why wouldn’t you?
Yes. Or die 1000 deaths.
Am I missing something, it seems as though he still has the video camera on his helmet as he was leaving.
My answer is a little more complicated. I would probably try to comply and give them my bike if I could. Now that’s not saying I wouldn’t draw and shoot them in the back of the leg as the fled. hehe
Trying to avoid armchair quarterbacking this video. If i found myself in this exact situation, i would draw if i felt i had the opportunity.
in the video, it looks like there are opportunities but thats easy for me to say from my desk..
Someone stealing a bicycle from, say, a rack: no.
Someone robbing me or another: yes.
I open carry, so these guys would have seen my gun on my strong side facing them and would have either waited for the next (unarmed) bicyclist or hightailed it outa there. Most thieves are cowards, and when faced with resistance show their true colors.
The perp already had his gun in his hand. I simply can’t imagine outdrawing that. My solution is to not go bike riding in the backwoods of South Africa.
Yes I would have drawn. This video reminds me why I carry, on the trails and on the road.
Yes I would have drawn around the 30 second mark when they are distracted with the bike. not 25 second mark when focus is still on me and his weapon is already drawn. Shoot when their guard is down not still focused on you especially with his 2 buddies coming towards you at that time. when they are all distracted with the bike around 30 seconds is when I would have drawn and shot.
Pull, shoot, good. I wouldn’t lose sleep.
I carry while riding my bike and would have drawn. I see someone running at me with a gun I’m not waiting to talk it out.
Have you seen the price of a friggin’ bicycle today. If it’s not from Wally World then expect to pay the wrong side of 1K for a pretty good bike. Even a good entry level bike for someone who wants to ride will run you at least 500 bucks. Oh if you live in the U.S. that means you will probably need a special insurance rider for coverage on the bike. My deductible on my homeowners policy is so high that that probably won’t cut me a decent check.
So yeah I’d take the chance and draw down if you rollover and play dead then you risk getting your ass kicked for because there is no consequence for them
Isn’t it possible to license and register a bike, so that if it’s stolen they can theoretically look for it? “Leave it to Beaver” on the nostalgia channel here was about that yesterday or so.