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I would hate to see a day when Americans decided to take up arms against their own government. It seems preposterous. If not that, ill-advised. If not that, really really scary. But I sense a sea change in both the government’s actions on guns and gun owners’ reactions to those actions.  For example (as we predicted) gun owners are ignoring/disobeying the post-Newtown gun registration laws in New York and Connecticut. This is creating a negative feedback loop. Threats to gun owners (e.g., the warning letters sent by the NYPD to Big Apple gun owners) followed by anger by gun owners followed by . . . raids on gun owners’ houses/apartments to confiscate illegal firearms. Followed by . . . ? Of course it’s not all about guns. Not yet. Hopefully never. Your thoughts?

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    • We will not finish it, unless the United States Military decides not to attack on the soil or the citizens of the United States. No matter how much firepower The People have…nothing can beat the bombers or the A-10s on a massive scale. I would rather see a peaceful split of the country…then the Civil War II.

      • nothing can beat the bombers or the A-10s on a massive scale

        Brilliant! Please tell the Taliban. They haven’t gotten the memo.

        • And a lot of them die young – in a country that will never have a chance to progress out of the Stone Age. This is not a fate I would wish on our nation.

        • Yes, this. There is a world of difference between going over and kicking the hell out of a country on the one hand and subjugating and ruling it on the other. The latter has certainly been done throughout history, but it’s always a very dicey proposition when the people are armed.

        • Gun owners ain’t the Taliban. Sorry, but until you’ve been fighting insurgency warfare for decade, that comparison is silly.

        • The Taliban will have kicked out two super-powers.

          This whole notion of “we would never win against the big bad US Military and their bombers” is pure bullish!t, I would rather die trying and take a few b@stards with me than live under a dictator.

          “We would never win against XYZ”. Tell that to every single successful uprising throughout history fighting for their beliefs.

        • @Hannibal. You’re absolutely right, we aren’t the Taliban which is why we don’t cut the heads off of those that disagree with us and wipe our @sses with our hand.

          FVCK you man.

        • There are things about the Taliban that would not apply to Americans who would be fighting our military on US soil. (1) Taliban have logistical and financial support from nearby countries, we would not. (2) Taliban are religious fanatics who think dying is a good thing, we do not. (3) Taliban are willing to take severe casualties, ten -to-one or more, we would not. In 1776, the weapons, as far as capability, were pretty much even for both sides. Today the civilians have very advanced firepower, but the military firepower has grown exponentially. There would be no hiding in the woods/mountains…you can’t fight a drone. It would not be long before the military knew where your hiding place was located, how many fighters you had there, and what you were eating for breakfast.

          In other words, our only hope is that the military people will obey their oath to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and refuse to fire on American citizens. And, I think they would refuse to do that. The people I know in the military, and veterans, would indeed refuse to do that. And that is a good thing, because despite the fantasy, you will not beat our mililtary if you choose to fight them. Don’t confuse politics with firepower.

        • Why do I always see the assumption of “conventional warfare” in these “Resistance is futile” against a modern army comments?
          Recent history gives the lie to such assumptions. The massive battles of WWII are as obsolete as the marching of men onto the battlefield to the music of fife and drum, to fire volleys of musketry on command against the massed ranks of the enemy.

        • I definitely agree, Ralph!

          A10’s are useless against an armed country where there is no clear place to drop a bomb, no clear knowledge that their might be spies around the A10’s, and no clear location of withdrawal since the enemy surrounds you everywhere.

          I see again and again people chiming in with “we are nothing against nukes” and “the gov has spy planes and jets and bombers.” It’s just ridiculous. If the gov used nukes (typically people don’t sh!t where they eat) or jets, bombs, etc. They would only ensure the decision of hundreds of millions of people sitting on the side lines undecided, to join in.

        • Patriot says:
          December 7, 2013 at 20:02
          @Hannibal. You’re absolutely right, we aren’t the Taliban which is why we don’t cut the heads off of those that disagree with us and wipe our @sses with our hand. FVCK you man.

          You’re right, you don’t do those things, you just play Billy Badass behind a computer screen… probably jackin’ it in a digital camo sock to the best parts of Red Dawn. The same nature of someone that allows them to cut someone’s head off and wipe with their hands is the nature that allows them to fight insurgency campaigns and never give up. You’d probably surrender when you ran out of Charmin.

        • “we aren’t the Taliban which is why we don’t cut the heads off of those that disagree with us and wipe our @sses with our hand. FVCK you man.”

          No, we don’t. We get a pimply-faced boy at a game console to drone-kill their wedding party.

      • Many people during the American Revolution said the same thing about a rag-tag bunch of farmers standing up to the largest, best trained and best funded military on the planet. How did that turn out?

        If you need other examples of armed revolts over throwing established, well funded governments check out Castro in Cuba, Lenin in Czarist Russia and Mao in China.

        “Every battle is won before it’s ever fought.”
        ― Sun Tzu

        • Just to point out.

          We were losing the revolution until the French lent support, and king George was already fighting a war. The tax increases that helped lead to the revolution were supposed to help pay for that war. “We” didn’t feel it was our duty to pay for a war the colonies weren’t involved in. The crown however felt that because we were subjects it was.

          Your point stands though. If enough of the population were to revolt they could win. Just depends of the factors in play and the numbers at work.

        • To be fair, the French didn’t lend their support until we started winning battles. It wasn’t that there were no victories until we had French support.

          I like your other points, though.

      • I love the A-10. I do. And I love the AH-64, and the Abrams, and I even still like the Bradleys, at least in their auxiliary role. But the infrastructure that’s required to keep those things running is absolutely dependant on the good old civilian population. And the minute those guns turn on that civilian population, the pumps turn off, the wrenches stop turning, and the mighty armed forces are left with the guns in their hands and food in their packs.
        And they know it, too.

        • This a thousand times. I’ve heard the US military argument from every anti I’ve ever talked with.

          They usually have no idea how much civilian logistics are needed to feed that enormous machine.

          Our military has never had to fight a large scale war without the logistical support of the citizens of the united states. It’s not clear that they could.

          Besides, the guys I know, that are serving, have said they would flat-out disobey any orders to engage US civilians….especially if that order came from our current dear leader.

        • This right here. They wont last a week without support from many sectors. H3ll the media provides support for our enemies now. Imagine the scenes of US Army attacks on civilians in suburbia.

        • The idea of armed warfare with our own government is repellant. However, I reject the “citizens with rifles could never stand up to tanks and bombs” argument. A few points.

          1. How many soldiers would actually fire on their fellow citizens?

          2. How many soldiers would become 5th columnists? Sabotage could be a tremendous asset.

          3. Think of how restrictive the Rules of Engagement would have to be. Every innocent American killed as “collateral damage” from a bomb or A-10 attack would fuel the revolution.

          4. The Taliban can’t get at the military’s logistic infrastructure over here in America. Hypothetical American revolutionaries could.

          5. Soft targets abound. You don’t have to just take out military targets. Attack government agencies. Blow up the computers that process Social Security checks or Food Stamp cards. Create societal chaos that the government would have to spend time and resources putting down.

          6. Think of all the fun our enemies overseas would have with a US Govt. tied up in a civil war. Trouble would break out all over the globe, again distracting the government from the war at home.

          It’s terrible to contemplate, but it would be done.

        • I fly AH-64s… Any rotary or fixed wing aircraft is a logistical nightmare… Moreover, I wouldn’t fight the American people, and would either lead a local militia or steal an apache for militia use, at least as long as it worked without maintenance… That being said, the idea ,of the American military turning on its own people is sickening and in my experience unrealistic… The educated people in the military would most likely not comply… I would be the first to resign my commission.

      • Could the american people theoretically beat a modern military with all of their tanks and planes etc? I don’t know. I think it would come down to being more of an issue of mutually assured destruction. Freedom loving americans may lose many, but I think the power elite would lose a great number as well. In addition, how many in the military are willing to fire on american people? I don’t know the answer to that either, but I do know it would not be all of them. I wouldn’t put it past many in law enforcement, but I still think most in the military think they are there to fight for american liberty and the constitution. I do know that politicians do not like an armed populace because it scares them. I think deep down they are afraid that their totalitarian agenda is going to push someone over the edge, and they are afraid of what might happen if that individual has a gun. I’m not saying a violent repercussion is a good thing, but the fact that they fear it is.

        • Don’t think for a second that somewhere globalist banksters aren’t salivating over the prospect of propagating a civil war here in the US. The dwindling populations of self-reliant, resourceful, armed communities spanning rural America are the last barriers to an agenda of implementing global governance. Takeover through slow incremental methods of political corruption and social engineering has taken generations. They would surely prefer a hot war now that the sleeping giant is slowly awakening from our cumulative slumber.

          Without the Armed Forces and domestic Law Enforcement, they are powerless to bring such a conflict to fruition. Instead of deepening the chasm between the civilian population and LEO and Military with rhetoric about “them vs us”; why not reach out to your fellow Americans and help them understand that our government has been genuinely hijacked. Aren’t they Americans also? Don’t they have to raise their families in the same communities we do?

          Talk is cheap, action is everything. Please join or support your local chapter of the Oath Keepers.
          Visit Oath Keepers. org

        • Trey, that’s absurd. With a civil war would come the explosive decompression of the dollar (along with the US economy), so their assets would vanish within an hour. And as for the ridiculous notion that they have gold, well, they can try to eat that…

        • To Jus Bill The Implosion of the Dollar is inevitable. We probably have unit 2017 (hopefully). I agree with Evan, would LEO or Homeland Security fire on Americans, remember they supposedly bought 1.5 billion rounds of ammo. What’s that for, do they know/foresee something we in the general populace are unaware of.
          If we use 1913, (the year the Federal Reserve & the IRS was created btw) as when the dollar was a dollar was valued as a dollar, today our dollar is worth $0.04 cents.

      • Clearly, you don’t fully understand the dynamics or dimensions of what 4th Generation Warfare would be like in the American context. What makes you think that all of those Warthog drivers will automatically be on the government’s side?

        • Indeed. And the pilots willing to fly missions against fellow Americans, what would they strike? Massed insurgents? There won’t be any massed insurgents – at least more than once. The isolated farmhouse? Perhaps, but that too won’t work but for a limited time. And what would happen should the government drive people off farms? The government has virtually no defense against a smart insurgency.

      • “Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

        – United States Declaration of Independence, July 4 1776

        If you ask me, those forefather guys had it right all along. Yes, Americans seem to be willing to put up rather than stand up, but make no mistake, they will stand up when they feel the need.

        IMHO, any “revolution” that might happen probably will be overcome by anarchy – people that see the opportunity to do bad things simply because they can. Patriots will be caught in the middle, on the one hand fighting off organized federal forces, and on the other, fighting off outright criminals and thugs. The federal government won’t try to rein in the criminal element because they will be working toward the same end – disrupting the revolutionaries.

      • You don’t have a beat bombers and A-10’s, you just have to shoot the pilots, or their families.

        That’s the interesting part about civil conflicts, it’s not country on country, it’s neighbor on neighbor.

        • This. The most likely scenarios for an insurgency don’t have much if anything for conventional military forces to do. And Edward Snowdon’s revelations should dissuade anyone from doing anything in a group outside of a *highly* trusted circle (e.g., militias), or involving the Internet, or with a cell phone riding along.

          Should an insurgency occur, it will mostly likely be made up of individuals who feel wronged by a particular agency or individual(s), who takes individual action. If there are no witnesses and you don’t tell anyone, how can you get caught? Combine this with guerrilla actions like hacking and releasing the names and home addresses of say a group of government workers who have engaged in egregious activities and wronged individuals will have a suddenly target rich environment. And the government will have no real enemy on which to focus their force.

          I think government will have a real incentive to play down an insurgency as soldiers patrolling streets in Bradleys is proof positive of oppression and the fear government has of their own citizens. Such an outcome would just as likely accelerate an insurgency as tamp it down.

      • You are forgetting how many service members would be unwilling to participate in military action against US citizens and would instead defect.

      • I think it’s more a matter of letting them know that a certain price will be paid if they push us too far, and do they really want to pay that price? The civilian population is heavily armed and sitting on plies of ammo. If a couple of semi- high officials met an unfortunate end, then might think again about going too far over the line.

        This is NOT a threat, btw. I’m just laying out what the capabilities are. The civilian population is full of hunters, vets, and hobbyists into long range shooting. IEDs are easy to build by a technologically advanced culture. Again, I am not making a threat, but it’s good that we have some capability, for all the reasons the Founders laid out. The constant push for gun control is not about lowering crime. It’s about controlling the populace.

        • Yea but how do we all come together and decide where our “red line” is? I think they’ve definitely crossed it in NY and CA.

      • As long as you know where the families of the people flying those planes live it is pretty easy to discourage them from pressing the red button.

        Civil war is a terrible, terrible thing.

        • Do you wish to be the first one to murder women and children? The families of those pilots? Not only is it murder, but it’s a green light for the other side to behave in the same way. Be carefull of what you wish for. It has a terrible way of happening.

        • And that is the nature of civil war.

          I suppose that you have read the news about this exact thing happening all over the world…since basically the beginning of mankind.

      • The fundamental flaw in the “nothing can beat bombers and fighter jets and tanks” argument is twofold:

        1) Most of the US Military will not turn against the People. As a conservative estimate, I would say that half of the military is from gun owning families. Are they going to turn their guns against their own family, friends, and townspeople? Some will; most won’t. They have to lay their heads somewhere at night.

        2) That argument is based on the assumption that those engaging in the battles would face the military forces head-on. Nobody is stupid enough to march down the street against a tank, just like nobody was stupid enough to march down the street against the redcoats during the Revolution.

        Those who’re fighting are going to utilize guerilla tactics. How does that work with the bombers and fighter jets? Do they just fly around, dropping bombs and hoping they hit someone? Do the fighter jets fly around until they find someone and let fly the missiles? No. That’s a total waste of money and resources on their part.

        Combat aircraft are only useful when they have an identified/identifiable target. They are not patrol vehicles; FAR too costly.

        Plus, skeptics scoff at the idea of people fighting against an organized military force today (I avoid saying “fight against the US Military” because, as I already demonstrated, there would be no US Military to fight) just as skeptics scoffed at the idea of a bunch of farmers going to war against the biggest, best trained army in the world before the Revolution started over two hundred years ago. Look how that one turned out.

        There was an interesting analysis done on the topic awhile back I read. Can’t remember where, but here’s the gist of it…

        Our entire military is about 3.25 million members, give or take. And they estimate there’s approximately 100 million legal gun owners in the US. If you assume the military had 100% participation (which would never happen) and only 10% of US gun owners participated (which would realistically probably be much more) then you’re looking at 10:3 odds. And as if that weren’t convincing enough, the minority would be bringing the fight to the People, who know the land better, and who’re fighting for their lives, rather than just following orders. Also, the vast majority of the minority will be on foot.

        After a couple of crippling losses, do you think the legions of thugs would be quite so gung-ho to fight? Probably not. After all, what the People are fighting for is worth their lives; the Government forces couldn’t say the same.

        • “And as if that weren’t convincing enough, the minority would be bringing the fight to the People, who know the land better, and who’re fighting for their lives, rather than just following orders.”
          This is the crux of the matter. The US military has NEVER, REPEAT, NEVER won a war against an indigenous population fighting for their homes on home turf since WWII. Read Sun Tsu, and learn.

        • I think that is over-simplifying it. We gave the enemy hell in Vietnam and never lost any major battle in that war. The only reason it was a Pyrrhic victory for us was because of Johnson’s giving orders and interfering with the generals and also the Soviets and the Chinese supplying the North Vietnamese.

        • @Kyle

          Vietnam was not a Pyrrhic – nor any other kind of – victory for the US. The US lost; I don’t know why so many people can’t admit that.

        • Why does everyone keep thinking the government would pit the military against the populace? As we see today, the politicians are gutting the military and MILITARIZING POLICE. How many good honest cops in NY are imprisoning ordinary people simply for having an unregistered rifle or standard capacity magazine? and these police think they’re doing the right thing for “taking illegal guns off the street.” You’re wasting your breath if you’re talking about the military turning on the people.

          The long and short of it, we’re a long way from revolution and local elections are much more important than you think.

        • Kyle says: “Pyrrhic victory …”

          Uh, Kyle, I was in Southeast Asia when the US Military got booted out of Vietnam in abject humiliation. It might have been “Pyrrhic,” whatever that means, but by no stretch of the imagination was it anywhere near a “victory.” Tricky Dick Nixon resigned in disgrace because of it.

          Of course, it never should have been fought in the first place. There hasn’t been a “legitimate” war since WWII, and we were reluctant to get involved in that until Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and Adolph declared war formally.

          Since then, the various crusades perpetrated half-way around the world have been nothing but self-aggrandizement and accumulation of power by the ruling elite.

        • JusBill. the sad thing is that the American military, those that choose to support the other side will be fighting on their home soil also. If they lose, what’s their options?

        • To Rich….

          There hasn’t been a “legitimate” war since WW2

          Oh BS, it’s quite easy to make an argument that EVERY substantial military engagement since WW2 was a morally correct decision.

          First one after WW2 being the easiest…

          Please enlighten us on how our actions during the Korean war which has kept 50 million South Koreans from being forced into 60 years of a hellish death camp is not “legitimate”. You’re really a fool some times.

        • Yep; we should wage war on every nation on Earth, including ourselves. Oh, wait – we DO wage war on our own countrymen!

          America: brutal policeman of the world.

        • (Rich Grise:) There hasn’t been a “legitimate” war since WWII

          “Oh BS, it’s quite easy to make an argument that EVERY substantial military engagement since WW2 was a morally correct decision.”

          Then I’m sure you’ll have no problem looking up the Congressional Declaration of War for each of them to show me a link to, will you?

          More harm, more bloodshed has been caused in the name of “morally correct decision[s]” than any other single cause, followed closely by “your own good” and “your protection.”

          Fie on that crap.

      • It kind of seems like people are under the notion that all military members are mindless machines who blindly follow orders. This type of situation gets discussed to great length across all ranks on many occasions – needless to say our oath is to support and defend the constitution,and to follow lawful orders from those appointed over us.

      • Never forget that the French helped fund and supply our first revolution. We are not an island, and unfortunately there are players other than our own military that would get involved. Allies, the UN, and contractor operator types would be involved even if our military refused to be. Further, enemies of the US would have a much easier time deploying on our soil for their own benefit if fighting broke out amongst us. We would already be divided and would crumble if a country like China decided to take advantage of our civil unrest. A revolution in the US could very likely turn into the epicenter for WWIII.

        As for the supply chain issues, I wouldn’t be so sure that our military would be stopped cold. They can get oil and munitions from lots of places that aren’t inside the US, and from lots of companies that aren’t based here or dependent on us. Since so many of our military vehicles and weapons are used internationally, parts supply and replacements wouldn’t be tough to arrange, either. Also, what’s to stop them turning off the commercial pumps and diverting all resources to fighting ‘domestic terrorists?’

        It would be a hell of a lot tougher to fight our government than the Walter Mittys among us realize, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t (or shouldn’t, in the right circumstances) be done.

      • They need people to maintain them, they need people to operate them, they need people to fuel them; I’d like to believe that a majority of Americans, whether military or not, would NOT support a large-scale military assault on American citizens.

        And don’t forget the Oath Keepers, the CSPOA, Nullification, and lots of other Liberty-minded people who believe in Constitutional government. The PTB are chipping away at the edges, getting a lot of press going after “low-hanging fruit,” but if push ever came to shove, I’m betting my life that Liberty will win.

      • Another complicating factor will be the current welfare-dependents rioting in the streets when their largess dries up.

        • Yes. I’ve often thought the welfare set would be an ideal pool of candidates for enlistment by the government when SHTF (don’t laugh- it worked for TSA and DHS…). If some of those people could get a decent salary, some riot gear, and a gun to crack down on the ‘domestic terror threat’ (read- middle-class gun owners), we’d have another formidable opponent on our shores, standing on street corners looking for a fight.

          Here’s a question: How do illegal aliens fit into this equation? In my neck of the woods, they are here often as not to get jobs in manual labor. If that dries up because of domestic unrest, will they head back south, or do they band together to try to hold on? That’s a ~15 million person problem, potentially.
          Here’s another question: What will our neighbors do? Mexico may as well be in its own civil war at this point, but what about Canada? Will they close their border to us, or give refuge to asylum-seekers? Will they send their flannel-clad, maple-scented shock-troops to aide the Feds, or our citizens?
          It’s fun to scream ‘Molon Labe’ from a hilltop, but I worry a lot more people will respond than we anticipate.

        • Not just welfare dependents Rich. If America falls apart in a civil war what about your monthly social security payments? What about the values of people’s real estate? Bank accounts? Will a lifetime of work be swept away and leave a fragmented nation in poverty? Will families be seperated by Berlin Wall’s all across our country?

          A lot of miserable loner loser types preach for and hope for a civil war. I hope for sanity to prevail.

      • You seem to be under a misguided impression citizens can or do not get their hands on heavy ordnance. Perhaps you should look at the USSR vs. Afghan Rebels, US vs. Iraq/Afghanistan, Syria rebels vs. Syrian government.

        Do you think that once a servicemen/women leaves the service they forget how to use things?

      • And do you think the USA could withstand a protracted war with the demographic that makes the food? An army marches on its stomach and we’d see just how crazy the urbanites got once they realize who they were trying to subjugate all these years.

        • Exactly. How else could the Viet Cong have defeated the “undefeatable” might of the United States, the Pathans the “undefeatable” power of Britain and Russia, or the might of Britain in the American Revolution, and the War of 1812?

      • Say what you will about the military. But I know I joined to fight for my fellow Americans and to uphold the constitution. Not be a muscle for a dictator. We would split, our obligations would lie with our neighbors and family being suppressed by a domestic violence.

      • I don’t believe that the rank and file military will turn on the American people. They are as disgusted with their Commander in Chief as we are.

        And if you don’t think a guerrilla force can overcome our military might, then you have forgotten Viet Nam.

        • Point of order: Vietnam was a hybrid war, with conventional troops (PAVN aka NVA regulars) being the decisive factor in the war, not really the insurgency. In fact, early in the U.S. Vietnam War (aka 2d Indochina War) the PAVN was duking it out with U.S. and ARVN regular forces (“We Were Soldiers” tells this story, it was from 1965). The NV leadership decided to go big, including turning VC militia into conventional forces. It worked simply because “The Americans have the watches, we [NV gov’t] have the time.” The NV strategists banked on the American public growing war weary. Sound strategy, properly executed, with sufficient logistics, wins wars. NV strategy essentially forced the U.S. to expend treasure and blood in MASSIVE quantities against a wily conventional enemy with unconventional resources backing him up.

    • in the final word if it ever comes down to that kind of a shooting war?? we out number the police we outnumber the troops
      and we by god out number the morons in office,
      sometimes it is just not possible to fix a broken system
      you just start over and pray for the best. we have some how over the last 30 years allowed the pc and liberals to hijack our colleges and our institutions of learning, our children cant or wont think for themselves and once they get to college they get taught all about how bad america is rather then why we are the greatest country in the world and the best and most free in the world. perhaps it is time for the people of the gun to exercise our 2nd amendment right

    • My first response was to say, “Have you ever seen an unarmed revolution succeed?” Then I though of the long-term Progressive strategy and how they have nearly successfully taken over our government and wondered if I was correct in that assumption. Finally it occurred to me that the only reason the Progressives have been successful is that they have infiltrated the government by stealth and have at their disposal ALL of the weapons at the hands of that government and all of the implied use of arms that brings.

      And that leaves, to the best of my knowledge, only the Czech “Velvet Revolution” as a successful unarmed revolution.

    • What I find just as disturbing, perhaps more so, is the
      number of people who continue to bury their heads
      in the sand and think ‘it’ll never happen here’.

      Considering the number of “ultra crazy conspiracy nuts”
      that have been completely vindicated, I’d caution anyone
      from being dismissive about the possibility of open
      resistance (armed or not).

    • Sadly, there are people out there, lots of them, who will live in denial of the fact taht armed revolution is the only kind that has ever worked. We lose Rights and Freedoms incrementally, but they are only ever taken back in bloody chunks. It’s ugly, but it’s true. If you won’t step up to it, then you’ve already decided to lose.

    • Not yet. But that’s the direction we’re sliding in. Thanks to our Constitution I can buy a rifle at the mall. Thanks to the current attempt at “re-interpreting the Constitution, if the wrong person sees me standing in my yard with that same rifle (or anything that looks like a rifle) , dozens of cops from several agencies will turn up in a tactical tidal wave, shoot my dog, ransack my house, and make my life hell. It happens to someone every day.
      And it’s not just guns. We have people in prison for weed. But Holder says it’s now okay. But we won’t repeal the law–we just won’t enforce it, except in certain cases, if we want to. Think Holder would look the other way if George Zimmerman got caught with a bag of pot?
      And the list goes on–government making up rules as they go along and no one held accountable.
      The big government bubble of arrogance will burst just like any other bubble. It’s just a matter of how and when.

  1. There’s more to be upset with than ever before. It will happen. The only question is when – maybe in 2 years, maybe in 200.

  2. The history of man is cyclic in nature. The American story for the most part has been an anomaly, in the sense that we have remained relatively at peace during the times we have exchanged governmental power from party to party or administration to administration. The notion that this Union of the States, or any political union for that matter will be, or ever can be eternal is absurd and preposterous.

    I believe the day of reckoning will come. It is like the sands of an hour glass slowing collecting at the bottom. Ever politician wants to “make their mark”, or pass some piece of legislation simply often to “do something”. What do these new laws usually deal with? The expansion or preservation of liberty? No. They often regulate something that was previously not regulated, tax something that was previously not taxed or ban something that was previously allowed. With each passing law, the pile of sand grows until the mountian of laws have essentially prohibited every activity a human being can participate in. At that moment, the society has no choice but to throw off the bonds that enslave it and start anew.

    I have 7000 years of human history on my side, and for anyone to assume we are different is fooling themselves.

    • Yes, it seems that true freedom is simply a point in an historical cycle as is totalitarianism, populism, complete anarchy, etc. If you look at the long view, as you point out, you can’t help but see that no society ever attains full freedom without then slowly loosing it, only to regain it, and go around the circle again.

      • “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years. Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.”

        – Alexander Tyler

    • I still believe that America is something new under the sun, and not necessarily fated to mimic the history of the older nations, weighted as they are by millennia of royalty and tyranny. In our fight, I think there will be some martyrs, but liberty can be preserved without another civil war. Don’t give up, but fight SMART, for chrissakes.

      • I agree with your sentiment and do believe in the divine providence of this nation, however, we are the same human beings our ancestors were. We suffer from the same frailtiesand lusts for the same power and wealth. We are no different than them and as such, I feel are doomed to the same fate.

      • All empires fall. This one will too in the future. It is inevitable only the timeframe is questionable. Will the People recognize it when it happens?

        • When they see the tanks rolling down Main St, they’ll get the message.

          Nothing can save this country now. It isn’t IF it’ll come crashing down, but WHEN.

        • Sorry, no criticism of your belief. Life would be simpler if I shared it, I’m sure, but you’re talking to an atheist of long standing here. And that’s the last I’m going to say on the subject. There really is no common ground on the question of religion between a person of faith and a non-believer, I’ve found.

        • Leadbelly,

          “Don’t give up, but fight SMART, for chrissakes”

          An atheist that is wanting to fight smart for the sake of Christ, interesting concept my friend.

        • Coming from my mouth “for chrissakes” is nothing but a cuss word, something my old man said when he was pissed. Don’t try to read too much into it.

        • Seeing how Christ was treated the first time around, I have little hope of him being stupid enough to return – EVER.

        • If Christ wasn’t just another snake oil salesman, then when he rose from the dead he would have hung around and taught the rest of us how to do the trick, not shown us such a huge teaser then taken his miracle power and gone home.

          If there is a God who has any power, then why are things the way they are on Earth?

        • 1) He didn’t die; it was a magic trick.
          2) God doesn’t care. He’s indifferent to human suffering.
          3) Life is an exam; you failed.

  3. I cannot imagine a more horrible thing, yet I fear that it may be inevitable. The only recourse is to not only stop an ever encroaching Federal government, but to begin reversing the near-totalitarian grip the government has on us, the citizens.

    The problem is that stopping the overreach of government can only be done if the citizenry – and I mean almost all of us – begins embracing the concepts of personal responsibility and individual liberty. While there are many arms of government that force their way into our lives like a wedge, in many cases they simply fill a gap that already exists.

    Such gaps exist in terms of personal safety – someone needs a cop or a security company because they can’t or don’t want to be responsible for their own safety. Environmental regulation was created because corporations did a damn poor job of policing themselves (that’s not in all cases, but it is the genesis of it). Similarly with financial regulation; the greedy, dishonest, and outright evil (Bernie Madoff, anyone) opened the door to regulation because of their actions (again, not in all cases is this true).

    So many people want a nanny state to protect them, to tell them everything is going to be just fine, to fill their heads with thoughts of sugar plums (tis the season). They want or need ongoing parenting well into their adult life. We need a sea change in American culture and I think such a groundswell could delay and even reverse that inevitable slide into a not-so-civil war.

    But it is cold and glum today, so maybe that is just what is affecting my mood. Residents of New Mexico sort of freak out when we cannot see the sun.

  4. I just don’t see it happening. Ever. Sure people talk like big shots, but when push comes to shove and they have to decide if they are really willing to give up their relatively comfy lifestyles for the harsh reality of violent revolution in their own backyard, most will back down from those big words. Take a look at what happened in the days after Hurricane Katrina in NO. Sure there will be a few people here and there that will fight, but you can bet that most of them will be dealt with quickly in order to quell any growing movement toward mass insurrection.

    I hope it never comes to that, but if it does, that’s how I see it going down.

    • It will not take a lot of people to get this kinda dance started, just a few true believers, but once the music starts playing people will be forced to pick sides.

      Revolutions like one that would occur in an already divided country like our will start feeding itself and become self-sustaining quickly possible as soon as one side feels the need for revenge. We might be one bloody gun raid away from the end of our nation as we know it.

      • If you can’t win enough votes to win an election, how in the world do you hope to win a revolution? A few “true believers” in the minority who take up arms and begin attacking the democratically elected government aren’t going to win over the folks who voted in that government.

        • It is minorities of the population that win revolutions. The American revolution was no different.

        • Wars are not won by popular consensus but by deeds of arms. History is replete with examples of victorious minorities controlling a much larger state. The only thing that these “victorious minorities” all seems to have in common is that they were armed. Besides any civil war fought would not be to conquer The United States. No the next civil war will be fought to break part of it off so that the people that live there can live as they want.

          We are a people that has grown apart. There are two Americas and they don’t like or care for the other.

      • I think, deep down, that people in this country have too much hope for that. Much like Europe had such hopes that Germany wouldn’t start WW2. Back then it was, “Well, if they just take Austria, it’s okay. It’s only Austria. Maybe they’ll stop there.” Rinse and repeat.

        Think about how you view this country and its founding principles. There is, at the core, a belief that the Constitution and the BoR are how it is supposed to be. It’s how humans should govern. It was a radical idea at the time and bold men, no matter what their personal faults, gave their blood and lives for that radical idea. I think many people here love this country (or at least love what it used to be). There is an ingrained hope in all of us that truth, informative voting and personal resposibility will win the day because that’s how it’s supposed to work. I fear that we, much like pre-WW2 Europe, will not realize the folly of that belief until it is too late. It’s that hope that will keep most people in their recliner watching their big screen instead of physically fighting for their rights.

        Unfortunately, statists are not constrained by the same hope or beliefs.

  5. I think an armed revolution would be fruitless because it would result in a power shift back to the east and possibly ignite WW3.

  6. Once, a few years back, I stood in front of my city counsel during the “comments” period for some new anti-rights rules they were considering, looked them in the face, and very calmly and without fanfare or drama read the following statement…

    “Gentlemen and Ladies of the City Council;
    I have been a trusted, law-abiding, resident and taxpayer for my entire life.
    I am considered to be a civic-minded member of the community and I have never, nor do I intend to ever, commit crimes or act against my fellow man.
    So I would respectfully ask this committee to tell me precisely what rationale leads you to consider turning me into a de-facto criminal with this proposed legislation. I would like this committee to explain explicitly what -I-, as an individual, have done to earn these restrictions and infringements, and if the answer is that it was not intended that -I-, me, specifically, and other residents JUST LIKE ME in this city should fall under the reach of the proposed rules then I submit that this is an example of poor legislation and the proposed rules must be rejected both in part and in whole.”

    You’d have thought I pulled out a grenade and pulled the pin by the reaction I got. To be honest, the way the counsel was acting I seriously thought I was going to get escorted out of the meeting at the very minimum. I simply could not believe how they reacted to a calm, deliberate, reading that called them out on the carpet and politely demanded an explanation for their actions.

    Fortunately the proposed rules were soundly voted down but after that I sat down with my lawyer and made backup legal plans for that day when some government official decides that I need to be discredited and/or hushed up.

    • Excellent statement. I would have loved to see the look on their faces as they were publicly called out for their misguided beliefs.

  7. “If the people come to believe that the gov’t is no long constained by the laws then they will conclude that neither are they.”

    Bingo, that says it all!

  8. Well… the second amendment is there so that if (when?) the federal government goes to far the people will have the means to… deal with it.

  9. “We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.”

    I have confidence in first three because they rarely fail, but the Founders knew and understood that we needed the cartridge box too.

    As long as we have the latter, we can continue to rely on peaceful means. But si vis pacem, para bellum.

    • “What are you going to do against tanks and bombers?” is what I have heard antis say who assert that the 2A is obsolete. To them, in the same vein as your post, I would reply that a guarantee of armed citizens serves to maintain the respectful, horizontal relationship between authorities and citizens. People who want to disarm citizens want to take that relationship of mutual respect away.

      • They ask you that question because they have no respect for the soldiers that comprise our force of volunteers and think that everyone who has a gun is a stupid mindless idiot. They also think that everyone who doesn’t share their opinions are stupid and mindless. Gotta love liberals for what they are: megalomaniacs.

        • And yet so many here look down upon liberals, regularly call them stupid, and call them other names as if liberal people didn’t also have families, firearms, and military histories. That kind of thinking would clearly come back to haunt people that think that everyone thinks like them.

  10. I’m looking at getting involved with my local militia in Texas at this very time.
    Open resistance would be awful. It terrifies me. I don’t want it. I think, for many reasons, there is little chance that anything good could come of it.
    (For starters, even if you successfully remove one regime, how do you know you’re getting something better in return? Didn’t work out for the French so well…)
    However, I know it is a possibility in my lifetime, & I have decided I will deal with it as that; a possibility that has many bad implications & little hope.
    (Though, yes, look to the Taliban or Vietcong for what this looks like; a lot of suffering & death for all involved)

    • You do not need to join a militia to make a difference. Just be a law abiding, moral, ethical and proactive gun owner and rights supporter. Be politically active and represent the community in a positive way. I think you will do more good that way.

      As to you French Revolution comment –

      The French Revolution was a leftist revolution fought because of greedy and envy.
      The American Revolution was a right-wing revolution fought on principles of morality, liberty and freedom.

      • That “morality” thing is a bugaboo to me. It always brings to mind the strict, severe schoolmarm with the ruler whacking kids on the knuckles for even thinking a “dirty” thought.

        Both wings are evil. Here’s one author’s perspective, which really sounds quite plausible to me, but I’m a nut case and a Radical Libertarian Loon:

        “The spectrum of the Spirit Polarity goes from Lucifer on the extreme left to Ahriman on the extreme right, with your spirit and my loving Light, of course, in the center. Lucifer is warm, earthy, sweet and sexual, and often mean, brutish and demanding. Ahriman is cool, mental, astringent and rational, and quite detached and judgmental.

        While Lucifer is sly, Ahriman is clever, and they both hate Free Will, but for different reasons. In a face to face battle, Ahriman will always outwit Lucifer, and yet Lucifer will sometimes win with sheer force of ill intent and ‘dirty tricks’.”

        If it’s true that quality of life is inversely proportional to amount of government, Q = k / G, isn’t it only logical for the graph to have a point where amount of government equals zero? What’s the value of Q, quality of life, at that point? 😉

        There’s your scientific basis for the assertion that the best government is a nonexistent government.. %-}

      • <>

        Well, there was that pesky part about people starving while the aristocracy lived in luxury. I’ll bet that you hate the idea of a black President playing golf and taking 1/3rd the vacations of the previous President, don’t you?


        The right wingers (conservatives) wanted to stay with England and maintain the status quo. The radicals wanted an independent America that kept its own taxes to itself. Pretty much a liberal concept.

  11. I guess the media and blue blooded slaves will sleep easy knowing that innocent law abiding citizens are killed in their homes by illegal gun toting thugs, instead of the reverse situation.

  12. I tend to be one of those it’ll never happen people. I just think so many people have way way too much to loose still.

    I think you could almost say that we’ll never need the 2A as long as we have the 2A.

    I’m fairly new to the RKBA stuff though and almost never not optimistic about anything.

    • “I think you could almost say that we’ll never need the 2A as long as we have the 2A. ”

      … never need the 2A as long as we have people to exercise the 2A.

      FIFY. 🙂

    • <>

      This. The average home-owning wage slave gun owner has too much to lose. If anyone revolts it will be the struggling poorer classes – those that conservatives look down on – that feel they have nothing to lose.

  13. Having said this I would also say, I will never experience a home invasion but I still have a loaded firearm for it.

  14. I think we would win the war shortly after the first shot was fired. We have something worth fighting for, and all we want to do is be left alone. You think California or New York is going to whip up a bunch of atheist vegetarians into a frenzy, convince them to take up the gun, and attack Texas or Virginia? Please.

    Once the food stamps stop, those states are going to be torn apart by their own residents looting LA or NYC. Their national guard units will be too busy shooting at their own residents to bother with anything outside their borders.

    Now that I think about it, that could be a good thing. It’d thin the liberal herd out….

    • From time to time I have read comments here putting down Atheists. You do yourself a disservice by trying to marginalize that group and others who you perceive not to support the rights of Americans. From my perspective you are no better than the tyrants who wish to destroy our freedoms.

      I once took an oath to defend those freedoms you exercise. As an Atheist I would still honor that oath today. That includes defending your religious freedom to the death. There is no need to create enemies from people that would support you.

      I think it’s time for people that believe guns owners only look one way or believe only certain things to take a look around. This group of ours is not made by a cookie cutter. If we keep dividing ourself based on religious and political ideology, we will hang ourselves with our own 550 cord.

      • Please don’t be offended, as I am an atheist myself. I was just trying to stereotype without getting too nit-picky (Birkenstocks are comfortable summer sandals).

        What I meant was that the other side of the country doesn’t believe in ANYTHING, and certainly not anything worth fighting for.

        • Point taken.

          ” What I meant was that the other side of the country doesn’t believe in ANYTHING, and certainly not anything worth fighting for. ”

          So very true.

      • I’ve read and heard some atheists and some scientists be as rigid and dogmatic as any thumper. Personally, it’s obvious to me that the Universe is big enough for all of them to exist, so there must be a lot more to the whole picture than any one of their little dominions encompasses.

        As for me, I guess I’m a Neodruid. I’m grateful to Mother Earth for sustaining me, And glad to breathe the Breath of Life, but Freedom is my Worship Word.

    • <>

      They would hire a bunch of Mexican, Eastern Euro, and Asian mercenaries, mixed in with Americans whose unemployment benefits have run out, and overwhelm the handful of gun-toting WASPs that would actually turn out.

      Take a look at all the T-bagger protests in Washington this year. The organizers expected an overwhelming turnout and have been lucky to draw 50 people.

  15. I said that if the IRS abuses weren’t enough to wake the nation up, I didn’t know what would. But watch what is happening with peoples’ reactions to Obamacare. You want a sea change, this may very well be it. Look to 2014 and 2016. What happens in these elections should be very telling.

    I am now more optimistic than I have been in years that the country can be saved by peaceful means. I still have some uncertainty about how the leftists will react. They are so full of anger and hate, and I am honestly unsure what they will do when they realize they are losing their hold. Regardless, my guess is that political activism and ridicule will probably be the most effective weapons in the near future.

    I would dearly love to see some of these a-holes go to prison for what they have done, but I would gladly give up that pleasure if they would just step down without a fuss.

  16. Here’s my prediction:

    A long, drawn-out, bloody civil war is coming to America.

    There is one group of people who want to totally disarm another group of people in this nation and that group who is armed do not want to be disarmed. That will tear us apart. One group wants “A” another group wants “The-Total-Opposite-of-A”. We cannot have two diametrically opposed groups at the same time. One group is going to lose.

    It will not just be on TV, like with Iraq and Afghanistan are today, but it will be outside our windows, on our streets in our cities and towns that we call home.

    People will hear the screams of the wounded, and the dying outside their homes as they try to put their young children to sleep.

    The body parts, as well as the dead, will pile up in our city parks with no where to put them.

    Our children will hear the sounds of gunfire, artillery, and the sounds of hellfire missiles from their playgrounds and their classrooms. They will learn of the carnage of war with their own eyes.

    With any luck, many years from now, I’ll be able to look at my grandchildren (I’m a 20-something guy) and I’ll be able to say that I was totally wrong in my predictions.

  17. “I am not discouraged by [a] little difficulty; nor have I any doubt that the result of our experiment will be, that men are capable of governing themselves without a master.” –Thomas Jefferson to T. B. Hollis, 1787. ME 6:156

    “It was by the sober sense of our citizens that we were safely and steadily conducted from monarchy to republicanism, and it is by the same agency alone we can be kept from falling back.” –Thomas Jefferson to Arthur Campbell, 1797. ME 9:421

    I have been plagued by the idea of this for a while, maybe not plagued but heavily focused, because it really is a fairly frightening idea find out just what “Dangerous Freedom” means. However in the grand human scale of things, like was said above multiple times, the cycle seems to repeat itself.

  18. Scary indeed.
    With an idiot like obama in the seat, he is absolutely clueless. He has never had to work for anything. Everything has been handed to him, or he was lead to it.
    So he has no concept that what he is doing is wrong.

    I hope it doesn’t happen. The losses would be horrible. It would likely alter the world.

    Ultimately, the ball is in the governments court.

    • “So he has no concept that what he is doing is wrong.”


      I respectfully disagree. Spreading dissent and dividing the people of this nation is the only way possible to enact policy they know full well to be against the principles this nation were founded on.

      • I agree with you that their destructive and divisive tactics are intentional, but I agree with Tom’s message that Obama really believes that what he is doing is right. He was raised to be a true believer in Marxism, and he remains a true believer as only someone who has been completely shielded from the real world can be. Others in the administration may be more sinister, I don’t know. But in some ways true believers are the worst.

      • “Spreading dissent and dividing the people…”
        This is what he did in Chicago, this is what he did in Illinois, and this is what he is doing now. It is the only way he knows.

    • It’ll be almost bloodless. There might be a rash of SWAT officers shot, but it won’t be long before they run out of willing SWAT officers. The PTB would never pull off a complete coup, because, as has been said, there is “a rifle behind every blade of grass.”

    • You are missing the point. He is doing it deliberately. It is all planned out. He is not stupid and knows exactly what he is doing. His masters, the bankers, are pulling the strings. Always have been and always will. They have to have war someplace. We the people put the kabash on their going into Syria. They have to have a war someplace and here would put the last piece of the puzzle in place for them to have the one world government, if they win that is. We can not let that happen. Get active, get off the damned couch, join your local militia.

      • Yep. Nailed it. It’s amusing, then infuriating, to hear low-information people talk about him being a “communist” and/or a “muslim”. Both could be true, but it’s irrelevant, really. The man is a tool of the international bankster cartel. They have many times used communists to do their dirty work.

        Obama is an instrument, a tool of the banksters.

        • Stuart Mackenzie: Well, it’s a well known fact, Sonny Jim, that there’s a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentavirate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows.

          Tony Giardino: So who’s in this Pentavirate?

          Stuart Mackenzie: The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, *and* Colonel Sanders before he went tits up. Oh, I hated the Colonel with is wee *beady* eyes, and that smug look on his face. “Oh, you’re gonna buy my chicken! Ohhhhh!”

          Charlie Mackenzie: Dad, how can you hate “The Colonel”?

          Stuart Mackenzie: Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes ya crave it fortnightly, smartass!

        • Dan Mitchell has an interesting take on Obama: “It’s almost as if Obama is a Manchurian candidate. Except instead of being a socialist plant, as some conspiracy-minded conservatives seem to think, he’s actually a closeted libertarian who’s brilliantly waging a campaign to convince people to distrust big government!” —

        • In following-up on Rich Grise’s comment I found the following by Dan Mitchell, which contains some additional links to other remarks on Obama (which are worth reading). Offered here for your consideration:

          Be sure to read Part II, Brings to mind the concept of “the banality of evil”, which describes the ordinary matter-of-fact lawlessness with which unremarkable people commit acts of great evil…
          and, Yes, it seems more and more we are in “The Twilight Zone”…

        • So Mitchell “doesn’t much believe in secret plans”. I would then suppose he believes that the White Sands atomic bomb was a coincidence? An accident? A natural disaster?

        • I don’t know. This is my first exposure to Mitchell via Rich Grise. Previously, I felt convinced Obama is a Socialist Progressive, but the analyses Mitchell is quoting seem to fit what we can observe happening better. For me, the Jury is still out.
          Regarding “secret plans”, the Atomic Bomb was a secret plan during a major wartime. It stands as a case of its own.
          When I was young and lived in Orange County California, it was a serious hotbed of Extreme Anti-Communist Right Wingers. The John Birch Society was founded there. These guys had control of several local newspapers and a bunch of money behind them (including Walter Knott’s). They spouted all kinds of stuff about Communist infiltration of the U.S. Government, “Commiefication” of the Public Schools and “Secret Plans” to take over the stealth so gradually most Americans would not notice until it was too late. At the time, I thought they were certifiably crazy, but looking back, now I am not so sure they were too far off the mark. Except for their remedy to the Viet Nam War Protests, which was to “get a bunch of machine guns and mow those sons of b*tches down” (and that is a direct quote forever burned into my 19 yr old mind from one of the major players in that group who happened to be the Father of a girl my Brother and I were good friends with in High School ).

          Recently both Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi (and a few other Liberal Democrats) have flat-out stated the ultimate goal of the Affordable Care Obamanation is a “single payer system”. If you read what Mitchell and quotees are saying, though, yes, they are poo-pooing the idea of “secret plans”, but it seems they are doing so from the perspective that the Democrats are now so sure they have got control of the Bureaucracy, Senate (and now House by their capacity to block anything the Republicans pass via the recent Senate Rule Change and/or Presidential Veto) and Justice System/Courts, there’s no need to have a “secret plan”…just spin and propaganda is all they need to “fool the Rubes” while they do what they wish.

          Generally, I take in various points of view, Mitchell’s included in this case, and observe and compare until I come to a decision I am confident about. I DO find what Mitchell, and the people he is quoting, say to be worth considering. and I Do firmly believe Barak Obama bamboozled all of us with rhetoric heavily laced with double entendre we failed to recognize, and that he has no regard for the Law once it gets in the way of what he wants to do. I also firmly believe the 2014 Congressional Elections will be the “pivot-point” where we put the brakes on this Progressive, Statist movement from the Left, or lose the opportunity to do so (short of open rebellion).

          If you are still skeptical, I respect that and am open to hearing your Point of View. These are, at best, confusing times. I would not purport to project how it will all turn-out and make only my own attempt to interpret the signposts encountered along the way. Right now, they are reading “Danger! Will Robinson! Danger!”.

  19. It’s bad enough when it’s dipsh!ts on the internet fantasize about armed uprising, but to hear someone from Cato spout this drek is just awful.

    Hey, I might have resort to chemo if I get cancer some day, but that doesn’t mean I spend my time bragging about how it’s an option for me.

    • He was rather difficult to listen to. If he left out the rest and only said: “If the people come to believe that the gov’t is no long constrained by the laws then they will conclude that neither are they.” his point would have been better taken. If the goverment continues to be held unaccountable, civil disobedience will become rampant. There are many increments of resistance between the state we’re in now and an armed revolt. Frinstance, non-payment of taxes, keeping kids out of school and away from the common core principle, noy buying Obamacare, not registering guns, and maybe even the the obvious one–voting nanny-state politicians out of office. At some point a tipping point will come and government arrogance will no longer be accepted.

    • I tend to agree with your statements more often than not Pete, but I think he made a valid point here. Much like children tend to mirror their parents’ irresponsible behavior, an irresponsible government can influence some of the citizenry to mirror those actions.

      • Eh. When I look at all the advancements and success we’ve had with firearms I don’t see it coming from an armed uprising, I see it coming from peaceful activism. If we use the Civil War as an example, 7 million people would be killed at the end of it. If it ended like the Civil War did the government would be even more powerful (though, of course, that came with the benefit of ending slavery). Losing 2.5 percent of the population, as well as most modern infrastructure isn’t worth it to me, particularly when I look at what Dr. King achieved without firing a shot.

        Just my .02

        • Vote in an administration that enacts policies that effectively eliminate the voting rights of African Americans and see how long the demonstrations stay peacefull.

        • See my above posts for my views. As to the comment by Mr. Cannon, while he might be talking about armed revolution, I see the comment touching on other aspects of life in this country. For example, look at the irresponsible fiscal policy in government. Spending money on things that they can’t currently afford, yet saying they don’t have a spending problem. We see a mirror of that behavior within a large segment of the populace. We see “the poor” buying new toys like iPads and XBoxes, yet crying poverty and railing against those that earn an honest living. I have personal knowledge of people like this (it’s embarrassing that most are related).

          When the government ignores laws, the more irresponsible citizens may just use it as another excuse to do the wrong thing.

        • Nothing even close to anything like the Civil war would ever be a thought. That was one group of states against the other group of states. This is most of the people in most of the states against the head of the serpent, the Washington DC ruling elite.

          Write me in for president in 2016, and I’ll solve the whole thing in a couple of days. I’ll fire the bureaucracy outright, and call off all the wars. I mean really. How would the vast majority of people’s lives change if the entire federal bureaucracy vanished overnight?

          They’d be unemployed – OK, give them a month’s severance, and the explosion in prosperity (caused by freedom from stupid regulations) would find them jobs within a couple of weeks no problem. Companies will still need paper-pushers, you know. 🙂

  20. I would hate to see American citizens taking up arms against our government … as I would hate to see our government taking up arms against our citizens. I also hate to see someone, whether a two-bit thug or our government, threatening to kill someone for exercising fundamental rights in a fashion that doesn’t hurt anyone.

    The trouble is, our government has already taken up arms against us citizens. And our government has threatened to kill us for exercising our rights. And our government is not accountable to itself anymore. For example Attorney General Eric Holder is in contempt of congress and yet nothing has happened.

    I am not sure how much more citizens are supposed to take before defending themselves.

  21. This was already solved in this country in 1865.

    Also I don’t think our political field today is anything like what it was in the 1850’s leading up to the Civil War.

    Wars are fought over economic reasons, like our original revolution, and the civil war, WW2 and pretty much every war I can think off off the top of my head. What you might have at some point in the future is wealthy states getting tired of carrying the less wealthy states, and a break up along those lines.

    But IMHO were pretty much in a worldwide pax americana now, so other than some minor skirmish’s I really don’t see much developing at least anytime soon.

  22. The problem with armed revolution is that everybody thinks that they will be the one who lives through it.

    Today we go to reenactments of Washington’s Crossing and Gettysburg and fantasize about how grand it would be to be part of a glorious crusade.

    History is a great antiseptic.

    When your buddy’s brains explode from a State Trooper’s bullet as you assault the statehouse your romance will shatter in an instant.

    We would make Syria look like Romper Room. I never want to see us come to it.

    • Your point is sound, but I suspect there are men of principle left in this county, people with real lines in the sand that will make Patrick Henry’s choice if given no alternative.

  23. Not gonna happen in the near future- we still have quite a ways to go, as the frogs in the pot- the water is only luke warm at this point. People vote with their pocket book, and as the vast majority are low-info voters or drinking the liberal bathwater, they dont know how bad things are until it affects them directly- the liquor store wont take the EBT card cuz its broken, etc. We have another wave of dependency voters coming on the books with the DREAM ACT, and if you dont think the GOP will roll on this, you havent been paying attention. ObamaCare wont be repealed until 2015, and then only if the GOP seizes a majority in Senate, and if you think thats a slamdunk, then you werent paying attention in 2012.

    I remember Chuck Clough the Investment Strategist and perpetual bear going on about the unsustainably low savings rate in the 80s, and how the economy was going to die soon.

    Then I remember Dave Rosenburg the best analyst at Merrill in the 2004-6 time frame sounding the warning on RE and mortgages, and we all know how the CDOs squared brought that firm to near bankruptcy, and the Treasury panicked and bailed all the banks out, with QE continuing the transfer from savers to banks still.

    So, we have a long way to go before the system breaks, and only when it breaks do people wake up and get pissed. Of course, a black swan can happen anytime that triggers a globally interconnected failure that we dont anticipate, but thats the point of the name.

    Only then will having firearms make sense, but only after the FED GOVT cant maintain order, which would be likely only if the problem were system-wide- think Katrina in 20 places at once, and FEMA, and DHS, and black helicopters whatever, good or bad, wont work.

    We are a long way from that, and speculating on what one person would do to start a revolution is not just unrealistic, but likely to get you on a watchlist, if we arent already- I am quite sure some bored young contractor is reading this as part of his duties to monitor the bitter clingers who are obviously the supersecret militia in hiding that inhabits the self-conscious bogeyman position in the minds of MDA, MAIG, Huff Po and DU type readers…

    HELLO!!! “these are not the droids you are looking for, move along”

    • PS: dont mistake my frankness for criticism- its fine to BS and b!tch and moan- especially venting amongst like minded. But my point is, at some point you have to do something productive or get really bummed and then get a skewed view of things that wont serve you at all.

      So, what to do? Sure- be prepared, have fun with your guns, and save “shooting the $hit with your buddies” for the bar in the bar after the hunt or the range trip, for this kind of speculation. Its best not to do it here, where the anti-gunners and others just say- LOOK A CONSPIRACY! THE VRWC!

      Far more better would be to get in shape, get to know your neighbors, put away the FEMA recommended food and water for two weeks, and learn who the elderly person is who might need help getting meds, the single person working all day whose dog needs to be fed, or the couple whose kids are stuck at school when TSHTF, and mom and dad are walking home from work, so you can help one another out in the inevitable power outage, wildfire, tornado, hurricane, earthquake or other natural or manmade disaster where you can actually do some good, and

      only then, after the 3 days of no food scenario, will your firearms training become useful, to make your cul-de-sac safe from roaming looters like in the 9.0 Chilean earthquake a couple years ago,
      or for you urban readers, when the Korean shopkeepers had to defend their businesses during the Watts riots,

      For then, maybe, you will have something to offer.

      In the meantime- turn your outrage into action, and get involved- something like only 47% of registered GOP voters actually turned out in 2012, complacently thinking that Romney would win. If 90% had done so, that would have been the marging of victory, and the left has far outworked us all for three cycles, and I think it would be very foolish to think they are going to just give up in 2015.
      Start close to home. If you dont have time, give money.

      Heres an example of “direct action” – on the CO recalls.

      Getting involved works, but its a lot of work, and takes time. However, if what I read on The Hill, and elsewhere, on the mood among congressional staff insiders, the Democrats are running REALLY scared at their poll numbers- its not about guns for the majority, its about a whole range of issues- BUT remember- people vote their wallet, so get rid of people who cant do “the jobs and economy” thing, and you get rid of people who dont get the personal liberty thing, so get out and spread the word, and get started on fixing it ground up, one election at a time. Money talks and you know what walks.

  24. I feel the battle need not be violent. Make an educated vote, adopt a sheeple, help them make an educated vote. Lately there have been a few recall elections when people realized who the person REALLY was. We need ballots not bullets. Violent/lethal conflict is not going to turn out well for either side and there are foreign enemies of liberty who would love to enslave our country. I ask you consider these factors as you clean your black rifles.

  25. When this over bloated bully of a government is no longer a government of the people and by the people in part due to a Supreme Court that is tyrannical in nature by allowing unconstitutional laws stripping individual rights of free speech, assembly, bear arms, privacy, due process, protection of private property, etc. etc. coupled with the right economic conditions, America will have a armed insurrection. Hamilton wrote a little rebellion is good thing, its a reminder to a tyrannical government that this nation belongs to the people. Soldiers don’t fight for Washington DC, the president, congress, or any damn government individual or agency, the fight for freedom for their families, neighborhood, each other and a flag that was bought with their blood not some elected or government bureaucrat dufuss. The national guard, AKA the state militia, will be hard pressed to shoot at neighbors and if they do, America will not stand as a democratic republic in history. Fear your government more than you fear your worst enemy, it will remove your wealth, freedom, rights and your life if necessary for their own benefit.

  26. It’s not really possible to envision a realistic scenario that could work from which the Founder’s Republic would re-emerge and most everyone would accept within a reasonable amount of time and an acceptable level of bloodshed. There is no group or person that could unite, organize and control enough armed Patriots to stage an effective rebellion against the Federal Government, except the Military. Even if there were a common rallying power, the process of gathering and concentrating a Patriot Army large enough to seize Washington D.C., and hold it long enough to re-establish a new Federal Government, could never gain sufficient numbers or momentum to go forward before it would be dismantled piecemeal by the existing Government and Military.

    Possibly, if enough of The States formed a Constitutional Convention, and could hold it together long enough. (and defend it against the Military, FBI, CIA, etc), they could organize a coup in Washington D.C. backed by some new Amendments and A Patriot Army composed of Citizens and rebelling Military units. This could get really ugly. particularly when it came to arresting the Sitting POTUS, SCOTUS, Members of COTUS, Cabinet Ministers, Federal Bureaucrats and others resisting the Rebellion. But in this case the Rebellion would not be “of the People” in a true sense and likely degenerate to a “meet the new Boss…same as the old Boss” situation.

    Other possibilities just devolve into brutal, inconclusive blood-letting and destruction.

    Nope. I just can’t see it,

  27. Once again I’ll start off by stating that I’m not half the wordsmith some of you on here are so bear with me a bit.

    I see quite a few comments in here that seem to think some glorified “revolution” stemming from patriotism rising up in some way to stand up for what’s “right”….. I see a different possibility as far more likely. Our government may keep some of us contented by “allowing” us to keep our freedoms intact(or the illusion of said freedoms) but I see the larger group of sheeple being kept in check financially. Even the poor in this country have a better standard of living than the average person in many other countries around the world. What happens when the government no longer has the ability to be the benevolent cash cow that provides those modern amenities we take for granted? Politicians get elected by providing for people who don’t want to, won’t, or can’t provide for themselves in exchange for votes far more often now than I remember in the past.

    I see two distinct main groups(with exceptions as always) in this country. The first group are those who can and will do for themselves whatever the obstacle they face, Those that will find a way to survive and aren’t afraid to work for it. The second group I see are those who have not bothered to see past the comfortable life of dependance they lead, those who don’t have the slightest clue how to survive without others there to fill their outstretched hands.

    That being said, Who do you think will be the first group to “rise up” those who can continue to survive independently or those who need to take from others to survive?

    I see most of the people on TTAG as being in the first group along with the preppers, survivalists, farmers, and hunters(as well as others). I believe most of us grasp the concept of sacrifice versus survival and see the modern amenities we love so much for exactly what they are, superfluous. I personally enjoy my games, cable, net, etc… but when it comes to actual survival it all goes by the wayside IMMEDIATELY. Food, shelter, family…. those things move to the front of the line for me.

    The second group to me consist of “citified” people, politicians, lawyers, people who live lives of numbers and the written word. Those people for the most part have no idea what survival would actually entail other than what they see on TV or read… Those things most of us have been taught and actually done to some extent.

    The second group may think they have the military and police at their disposal but what happens to those soldiers and officers when their families are forced to survive amongst the wolves? How many of them will hold their post following questionable direction while their loved ones are left to fend for themselves?

    The recent past within our own country shows us that the sheep can easily become wolves while the sheepdogs remain true. How many sheepdogs have been involved in riots, looting, theft, robbery or the myriad of other assaults committed on his fellow man? Now ask the same question about the sheep-become-wolves.

  28. To add to all the postulation… Several people pointed out that a large portion of US military would probably be reluctant (at the very least) to engage civilians but…………………….

    Who knows to what degree foreign governments would get involved in such a clusterf*%$? Canada, Mexico, UK, etc.

    Let’s hope we NEVER have to find out!

  29. Required reading: The Declaration of Independence. Not just the first paragraphs, but the entire document. They spell it all out why THEY went to war against their government. Why they would use force of arms to change things. To kill others and die themselves for their cause.

    I suspect that very few if any citizens today would see it the same. That most, if not all, would call them fanatics and rather jail or hang them all. Would decry the violence of their actions and the hate speech they used. The PC police would round them up right quick. The reality is that REVOLUTION is dead. It just isn’t acceptable anymore.

  30. The equilibrium between the government fearing the people and the people fearing the government has been lost. The government hasn’t feared the people for decades, and recently the peoples’ fear of the government has grown exponentially. The government’s response, esentially, has been to give the finger to the people. Too many people see the country and the government as one. That’s why they’re reluctant to openly oppose the government. The govenment and the country are not the same. Eventually the people will have to take the country back from the government, or be enslaved by it.

  31. Small Arms Control Treaty. Signed. Confiscation. Spoken by Reid, Pelosi, Boxer, Biden, Cuomo, and many others. It’s human nature to not want things to change but listen to the enemies of liberty and they’ll tell you what they want to do. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. What is happening is what a Constitutional Republic is supposed to guard against but our form of government no longer conforms to that instituted at the founding of our nation. The remedy was also instituted at the founding. True patriots are duty bound to apply that remedy if circumstances demand. It doesn’t take a lot of work to find out what the founders thought those circumstances wold be. Look objectively at the current state of affairs in government. If things keep going the way they are now it’s only a matter of time until duty will call. You can’t wish reality away and the facts establish reality.

    • True Patriots will get off their couches on Election Day and vote their conscience. There hasn’t been enough of that lately.

      • I agree with your comment about voting but how much confidence do you have that our representative form of government still functions. With Obama ignoring immigration law and successfully challenging voter ID laws and even the “opposition” party working for amnesty the sad truth is true patriots will most likely be out numbered by people more eager to fly a foreign flag on their porch than they are to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

  32. This post and most of the comments seem to suggest the revolution would take the form of kinetic action against the current political and military institutions. There’s a grey area between “civil war two” and laying down and submitting to the whims of the fascists. The people who would lead a real insurrection are smart enough to remember that asymetric warfare isn’t just for the other guys. I’ll leave the rest to your imagination.

    • Agreed. Sad as it may be there are many that would evade, survive, defend, pick up the pieces of what’s left and try to reshape what’s left.

      Unfortunately without a common goal, a defined “line in the sand” or a cohesive direction in which to fight most will be far less likely to lay their lives on the line.

  33. OK revolutionistas, if you DO succeed at overthrowing the Government that we have now, WHAT would you replace it with? 50 kingdoms? A “strongman?” A Banana Republic? A monarchy? Anarchy?

  34. 2016 couldn’t come fast enough. However, I would be naïve to think that, even if the Republicans won back the Executive Branch, there are too many pieces already in place and the outlook continues to worsen:
    1. An unpredictable Supreme Court that, losing one conservative Justice, would be extremely predictable — in the wrong direction.
    2. The small arms treaty that Kerry just signed — while nothing has amounted from it yet, just give it time. The liberal media will carry the ball on this one and the meme will be something along the lines of: “The United States has to respect international law and we are the only holdouts on this law. We must be good international citizens. We must do this for the children.”
    3. The media is firmly entrenched on the anti- side of the argument.
    4. Laws that already infringe upon our rights as acknowledged in the 2nd Amendment are already in place and being used by government agencies to limit our options (by Executive Order we are looking at changes to regulations (not laws) by the ATF on trusts for Class III equipment). I would expect no slack from the left in how the ATF implements any new regulations that don’t require Congressional approval. Executive Order (or just instructions from the White House) are preventing M1s from being brought back into the U.S. to sell. All in the interest of public safety…for the children. When was the last time an M1 was used in a crime? I’d be interested to hear the answer to that one.
    5. Other agencies and government institutions continue to infringe on our other rights as well, on a more regular basis. NSA tracking programs aimed at U.S. citizens? Requirements in the ACA doctors to ask kids whether their parents have firearms in the home? (this despicably invasive tactic is straight out of Nazi Germany). TSA checkpoints and a “VIPR” program designed to get us used to having our 4th Amendment rights infringed upon?
    6. Faceless, unelected, and unaccountable bureaucrats across government agencies will follow the lead of the Executive Branch. A lot can happen in just under three years.
    7. God forbid if Hillary gets elected in 2016.

    These are just some of my thoughts off the top of my head. Just my two cents’ worth. But I think things are stacked to get worse before (and if) they get better.

  35. military members are citizens first. its foolish to believe we would have a shooting war against our own family in the military. a coup/mil revolt would happen long before major bloodshed, especially bc the vehemently anti constitution POTUS/Govt’s disdain for mil. ESPECIALLY bc 2A is the dividing line. Constitution is listed before POTUS in the oath. im not worried.

    • Just curious, is that the same oath that the POTUS took during his inauguration? And Senator Feinstein et al? Or the soldiers that were brought in after Katrina that confiscated weapons? Hope you’re right, but always be diligent.

      • yes same oath. but I want to believe the mil takes it more seriously. im pretty sure it was natl guard grabbing guns after katrina.

        • President’s oath, Article I section 1, last paragraph: “Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:–“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.””

          “To the best of my ability” is the Zero’s loophole – he’s obviously working at the best of his ability now, and that other part – “preserve, protect, and defend” doesn’t say obey.


        • I guess potus oath is diff. here is mil oath: “”I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.” (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960″

  36. Revolution would most likely result in anarchy. You always try peaceful, civil resistance at first. It has worked multiple times. Armed resistance is only as a last resort and you try to keep that as controlled as possible (abide by the laws of war, no killing innocent women and children, etc…). Otherwise the violence will go out of control and your new, replacement government has a good chance of being tyrannical.

  37. With some of the stuff that is said on this site, and how influential it is in the gun world, I would bet that the government monitors this site 😀

    • I’m certain of that. In the form of DHS, who put out a contract to do just that. How are things in the DC Fusion Center? Quiet so far?

  38. As for those saying that all one need to is target the families of members of the military in resisting a tyrannical government, that is something very wrong to do, both morally and strategically. Morally for obvious reasons, and strategically because then you feed the propaganda apparatus of the tyranny that your resistance is really just a bunch of ruthless thugs whom the government is very much justified in using force to put down.

  39. for the record, I was watching those hearings that day, for reasons I can’t explain. maybe I wanted some background noise on…. like white noise. Maybe I was just playing with the new channels my uber-ultra-cheap-ass-basic-cable lineup suddenly decided to give me (yes massa! thank ye massa!)

    all I could think of while watching that hearing is… Why haven’t we impeached this motherfucker? (president)

  40. People using the American Revolution as an example of how it’s worked before need to stop it. We won *only* because of French intervention, and the Monarchy decided it was too costly to keep the colonies when they had other issues around the world.

    Also, it was roughly 1/3 for, 1/3 against, and 1/3 indifferent… and it was as colonists against an unelected Monarchy on another continent an ocean away. We were not trying to overthrow the Monarchy itself. Do you really think you could even get 1/3 of the U.S. population to support an overthrow of their own democratically elected government? Good luck with that. The only revolutions that happen that way that succeed turn into dictatorships.

    I mean seriously, you want to overthrow a republican style government for… what? Because after you win, the same people that voted for the previous government are going to be voting for the new one. Or do you plan on not allowing large swaths of the population to vote and instead impose the will of the chosen enlightened few on them?

    • I wish people would stop saying things like “republican style of government”! What the f*ck is that? A Constitutional Republic is what we are supposed to have and we aren’t advocating overthrowing it we are advocating restoring it!

    • For the record I think the talk of an impending revolution/civil war is silly.

      Indulging in “what ifs” about the Revolutionary war aren’t useful especially since you are the one controlling your story about it.

      The French were key in ending the war at the time it ended. Insurgencies, even in the current age, take decades to run their course. Without the French we may well have ultimately lost, or the British may have ultimately gotten tired of the colonies and dead soldiers and packed up for home a couple decades later. We can’t know for sure and everything else is for people who dabble in alternate universe theory.

    • Right of a people to resist a tyrannical government is not about trying to overthrow a democratically-elected government for the most part, it is about overthrowing a government that has become an absolute tyranny, to use Thomas Jefferson’s language from the Declaration of Independence. So for example if the U.S. government gets converts into something like a Leninist/Stalinist dictatorship, then the people would have a right to use force against it.

  41. I suspect:
    1. His followers in the colleges and ghettos would not go away quietly; and
    2. He and his tools have the dirt on a LOT of very powerful people.

  42. Who would lead this revolution? Who would decide the kind of government we have when it’s over? Or do we become Somalia? What about tribunals and war crimes trials when it’s over?

        • You’re much too negative. Half the country is protesting government overreach. I think adding to the Bill of Rights with things the government cannot do is the way to go.

        • To Adub:
          NO NO NO!!!

          What needs to be done is to strictly hold them to the 18 Constitutionally Enumerated Powers, and NO MORE.

          Government is NOT, nor was it ever supposed to be, some kind of overarching authority with carte blanche to do whatever it wants to except 10 things. It’s supposed to be a central focal point for things of national interest, and has had 18 specific powers explicitly delegated to it by the states. Anything else is Unconstitutional and therefore Null and Void, including so-called “executive orders.”

          But it’s looking that we need the people to enforce the Constitution, since the “standard” checks and balances aren’t working.

          Don’t Comply! Nullify!

  43. It would not be a revolution
    It would be a Counter Revolution
    and Commies are expert at destroying Counter Revolutions

  44. I am a gun owner.
    I’ve never used my gun to take the life of another.
    I pray and plead everyday that I never will.
    I am prepared, however, to do so to protect what I hold dear.

  45. The revolution has already started. It just hasn’t become an armed uprising….yet.

    And should it come to open conflict, I will surely take up arms and stand shoulder to shoulder with other true Americans. Its better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

  46. From 1775-1783 the Patriots fought a war for independence. It has been mislabeled for years. Our fore fathers fought not to over throw the monarchy in England but rather for self determination on this continent.

    Equating that noble war to an armed uprising for our sovereign right to near arms is doing a tremendous disservice to our fore fathers as they had a much greater idea in mind, a republic.

    Our only hope against the unconstitutional limits being placed on firearms is to elect on every level of government pro 2A individuals to office. From dog catcher, to local council men and women, state representatives and federal representatives.

    We have to be more organized, better educated and more motivated than those who oppose the 2A, and they are many.

    No one is going to be successful in an armed revolt against our government for 2A rights only. Now that 98% of our population is urban and 47% dependent. It would be a modern day “Bay of Pigs”.

    We need to win this war through education and by encouraging current gun owners to become more responsible with their firearms.

    If only Mrs. Lanza had kept her firearms under lock and key……………..

    • it wouldn’t have made a difference how she secured her firearms, there are a lot of very sick and evil people out there, there would have been another community that would have been effected with a tragedy in the same fashion.

  47. My opinion is worth little as it is speculation, so here goes:

    Do you really think our troops are different than the German troops of pre WWII? In the east (Poland, Russia, etc) and west (France esp) entire villages were whipped out, men, women and children. 10 % of Greece’s population died during WWII, starvation, murder. If you think our troops won’t fire on us, I have some beachfront property in Fargo, ND I would like to sell you. The military have families, friends and unit cohesion. They will certainly fire on civilians if ordered to.

    It has already started with over 70,000 no knock no warrant invasions per year by the police, Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc. our civilian law enforcement agencies ARE and WILL attack us if directed to do so. Both Ruby Ridge and Waco could have been defused. . .wait them out but no, ATTACK!

    I certainly do not believe in armed revolution, if you would all vote, we could change things. So I will support voting them OUT of office.

    But some out there believe it is coming. All these firearms sold and all this ammo sold. People in this country are nervous and getting ready for something. If you think I am wrong, let’s talk about that beachfront property.

  48. Our founding fathers wrote two amazing documents and taught us a powerful lesson about our responsibility as free men and women. If our government fails to follow the laws set down in our Constitution then it is our responsibility to turn to our Declaration of Independence and follow its guidance wherever it leads. As long as we have the God given rights written in our Constitution , our liberty can be preserved with our votes. When those God given rights are taken away by anyone, we have the right and responsibility to restore our liberty the same way our founding fathers did.

    “Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! “

    • +10,000. Years ago, I found an (empty, sadly) commemorative bourbon bottle of Patrick Henry, beautifully painted, of him giving that famous speech, on the other side of this city I’ve called home three different times. This might be my proudest possession, and I’ve carried it everywhere I’ve moved – Culpeper, Richmond, Taos, Richmond…..

  49. You’d be hard pressed to find anyone in the military willing to turn their weapons on their citizens for the purpose of disarmament. A few reasons:

    1. The officer corps is overwhelmingly conservative/libertarian in their political leanings and thoughts. I can count on one hand the number of guys who actually think Obama is a leader worth saluting. We realize we’re lorded over by incompetent fools. We do the best with what we can, but thats another discussion for another day.

    2. While the overall military is large, the actual number of ‘trigger pullers’ for lack of a better term, is relatively small. Think 9-10 support guys for every one guy on patrol.

    3. Tanks, helos, bombers, fighters….all have a very long supply chain and rely on guys turning wrenches for tens of hours per hour of use. Those consumables are not easy to go without for very long, and without slave labor making them round the clock, they no workie no mo….ie if the factory that widget X comes from is in an area under revolt, then airplane y can’t fly.

    You don’t have to destroy them….sabotage a tire factory, destroy a factory that makes compressor blades or turbines, or immobilize the assembly line at a hydraulic pump manufacturing facility and you’ll have done far more damage than any anti aircraft missile battery ever could.

    It’s not the military; a broad, outright assault on the gun owning population would go over like a lead zeppelin with the bubs in the DOD and be stopped within the ranks before it ever became an issue.

    It’s the death by one million scratches approach through a highly militarized (but far less scrupulous) law enforcement population that likes to shrug its shoulders and go “we’re just following orders” that will eventually break the dam wide open or defeat us with not so much as a whimper.

    • Yeah. I think it takes something like ten support people for each wounded troop. In which case, don’t shoot to kill; shoot to severely WOUND.

      • I once saw a photo of a few rag-tag troops loitering about, captioned, “We don’t shoot to kill. We shoot to live!”

    • Didn’t military and cops turn their weapons on people during the aftermath of Katrina?

      The military follows orders. cops follow orders, and most people follow orders. No uprising is coming anytime soon. No civil war is coming anytime soon. When and if it does come those taking part will be extinguished and made an example of.

  50. i doubt there will be a revolution because i think we won’t see the need for an armed revolution until it is to late. i predict we go down the slippery slope until we only have our plastic liberator pistols. good luck starting a revolution with that.

    slippery slope steps:
    1. fully automatics outlawed
    2. open carry/ concealed carry outlawed or frowned upon
    3. registration
    4. mag limits
    5. bullet buttons
    6. ny confiscations

    the list goes on, but i bet unless there is a nation wide all out confiscation there will be no armed resistance.

    • “…we go down the slippery slope until we only have our plastic liberator pistols.”

      Except that in the US there are far to many snorkelers and scuba divers. And with so many sunken ships having gone down recently……!

    • You’re only seeing what the LSM shows you. For every gun confiscated, there are about 299,999,999 others what weren’t. Bloomburger’s flock really isn’t all that big, they just get a lot of propaganda.

  51. If it comes to that, then China and Russia wins. Someone needs to see the bigger picture.

    Both of those countries have no qualms over bullying their own people.

    And speaking of which: I’m really hoping that China’s hostile actions gets the American government to realize that it has bigger problems to deal with instead of picking on a citizen’s human right to defend themselves without relying on their big brother for protection.

  52. Well if a violent revolution does happen within the US between gov and citizenry know that about 1/3-1/2 of the entire US military forces are on our side. I have relatives in every branch, a navy uncle who works at a nuclear site, my older brother is high up in the Marines and the majority I know in the service being talk around our friends and family table is mostly about guns, freedoms and country just know that if this day comes we will have a good number of patriots on the inside working with us not against us.
    This is why I just laugh silently when I hear people talk as if the citizenry has no chance in this type of situation, that it’s citizens vs gov, just so untrue. Gov is made up of citizens, those citizens have friends and family outside of gov. Gov and military is not some unstoppable force, it’s a force made up of citizens and it can crumble to the ground at any time.
    This is why we see so much of the military becoming privatized, especially on the manufacturing front where defense contractors basically make 95% of the military weapons, but same goes for actual surveillance and special force type units, being private allows those at the top to screen everyone more thoroughly, to hire those more concerned with money and power than the constitution, rights and freedoms. Slowly but steadily armies of men and women who care more about money than our right and freedoms are being assembled.
    In reality the Armed Branches of the US military are our protectors, or brothers, our blood. But private corporations which have zero oversight, selfish intentions and access to bails of tax-payer money via our corrupt political system are guiding our military to become aggressors toward us, just as the private defense industry has pushed for the militarization of police.
    We are already at war.

    • You make good points. I always chuckle when the leftist say, “what could you 2A people do against the might of the US military? They have planes and tanks and missiles” blah blah blah. My answer is ” And who’s going to fly the plane, drive the tank, and guide the missile!” They never realize 2 important points. First being that individual service members would largely side with us. They swore an oath to the Constitution not to the United States government. Second, men with rifles are ALWAYS what win wars, not technology! If high tech weapons were the key to success we would have won in Viet Nam. We ruled the skies. We had infrared, tanks, aircraft carriers, etc. and lost to bear footed men with rifles (several million of them albiet). This always short-circuits their entire arguement. The point I’m making is you and I and the guy across the street would roll over them like ants over a melting candy bar. Any weapons used against us would quickly be reappropriated and turn back against a tyrannical government. I can only imagine some officer ordering the marines I served with to fire on America civilians….. I’d have fired exactly one round….. Right between his eyes. Then I’d pin his bars or stars on my uniform and said, “Follow Me!” The leftist simply think the order would be obeyed and they couldn’t be more wrong.

      • Good points, however the govt would be sure to paint any opposition as “domestic terrorists” or “militia nutcases” to ensure their orders were obeyed. Also, while professional soldiers would not be apt to take such orders, I can point out many civilian LEOs who would take federal assignments with glee. Lets see how many NY State police refuse to carry out gun confiscation raids in the upcoming months. Once the govt makes something a “law” or targets a group as “criminal” then its easy for their shock troops to accept the orders.

  53. The very fact we are discussing the possibility of armed rebellion is a step towards it becoming a reality. In my opinion, The Government, (not Your Government), has been telegraphing it’s intention to scrap The Constitution in it’s entirety. The 2nd Amendment is just the easiest target to begin the process. If you step back and look at the overall picture, it might look as if individual freedom has already been subjugated to the few that demand special laws and exemptions, and they get them. It is called currying favor (IE: buying votes), not for one group, but for many groups. Some time ago it was reported 60% of the US population identified themselves as being part of one diverse group, or another. They are united in their diversity. The other 40%? No word on those.

    • Well, actually, the attack on the First Amendment started some years ago, with all that Political Correctness crap. You can’t even say “nigger” any more, not even to discuss the word! How sick is that?

    • The 2nd Amendment is just the easiest target to begin the process.

      The 2A is THE critical one for the whole process; being necessary to the security of a free state. The Constitution cannot be scrapped without first weakening the 2A beyond a certain point or eliminating it all together. It has already been diluted to a dangerously weak concentration.

  54. The author seems horrified at the prospect of Americans taking arms against the govt. If it wasn’t for the British taking arms against their country, there wouldn’t be an America today.

  55. A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    You know what’s worse than the People fighting their own government to repel infringement… living under tyranny! Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry. (Thomas Jefferson)

    God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty…. And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. – Thomas Jefferson

    • We need to cut off the head of the snake. Or in this case, the head of the giant octopus. It’s all of us against the Washington DC ruling elite, and it’s not just guns.

      One of the majorest [my word] problems with liberty is that there are those who think the War on Drugs is a good idea or something. For example, I’m a gun nut AND a pothead, and there are people on either side of the gulf that just can’t handle that kind of concept. Don’t worry! I would never shoot high!!!!!!! I don’t drive high, and I’m even reluctant to get out on my bike very much while high. I’d much rather just sit and be high, and post to my discussion groups. %-}

      But WTF, Liberty is for Everybody, even idiots! You just don’t want to appoint idiots lord and master over yourself.

      In Summary, Don’t Comply! Nullify!

  56. I refer you to history. Freedom is lost incrementally. It is taken back in large chunks by force.

    That’s just how it is. Read a book.

    You may fear it. I look forward to it. Not because it will be pretty. But because that’s how it works. I may not even live to see the outcome. That’s just how it works.

    You don’t have to like it. You just have to step up when the day comes, or explain to your grandchildren why the Bill of Rights was erased and you didn’t think it deserved a defense.

    Let the USA die because you’re too brainwashed to do the one and only thing that ever restored freedom, anywhere, ever?

    Yeah, draw another line in the sand, talk big, and watch ‘them’ stroll over it knowing fu;ll well that all you’re going to do is draw another line… There have been plenty of chances for the Americans to rally, but they never do. Just write the victim off as crazy and let it go…

    • Well put. Something has been bothering me about this surge in anti-gun activity: it doesn’t conform to the incremental model. I keep coming back to the question, do they really think they are going to get away with confiscating guns? It’s almost like the anti-gun forces are trying to pick a fight.

      • I had similar concerns beginning a few years ago. However, when considering the alternative, it’s preferable that government miscalculate and turn up the heat so fast that the frog knows it is boiling. Regardless, I truly believe that, when one considers the totality of infringement across the board, we are at the cusp of not being able to secure Liberty in this nation as the People have allowed far too much encroachment already. Given our laws, technology, power structure and resources that I believe have been/are currently being rapidly put into place, and the complacency of the general populous; the job of restoration would be monumental. IMHO, if the balance of power is tipped any further towards government, the People have mighty slim odds of success.

        • John: I see them miscalculating badly, and going for broke. To me, that says people are waking up like never before, and that we’ll win. It will be very, very, horribly ugly, probably, but in the end, we win.

        • @William Burke: Look beyond just gun rights and I don’t believe so. People are waking up to less things overall when compared to the grand power grab by government these days. The net result is that we are less free today than we were twenty years ago. NSA spying is a huge part of that. The People are accepting so much more government intrusion and control than they did even in the 1990s. All, just my opinion, of course. There need only be one more successful grand swipe at the RKBA and I believe that Liberty will be in a death spiral here. That successful attack might not be today and it might not be tomorrow but if the attacks continue with each tragedy, government might get lucky eventually. If enough surveillance is put in place and enough rules/laws/policies in the name of ‘terrorism’ are put in place; there will be too few ‘law abiding’ citizens among us to actually keep and bear arms in public and as advocates for freedom. These things don’t need to be enforced right away… just put on the books as a trap for later.

        • John in Ohio, I think you need to get out more, or something. There’s a groundswell of state nullification going on, not only against the anti-gun nuts, but insanity like Obamacare and the NDAA and the burgeoning deficit. Especially young people are noticing that the emperor has no clothes.

          So I think it’s not as bad as you seem to think. To coin a cliche, it’s darkest before the dawn.

      • ” do they really think they are going to get away with confiscating guns?”

        Think? I believe some do, but it’s more complicated than that. What I see most in their actions is DESPERATION. As in, “we’re about to lose this whole goddamn thing if we don’t go for broke RIGHT NOW!”

        And in a big way, I think they’re right.

  57. Those who win are those who fight; regardless of the outcome, they don’t have to live under tyranny. For those who are smart enough to find the will to fight, they are also smart enough to know that living under tyranny is a fate worse than death. So, it’s really a moot point. Win or Lose, you still have all the life you are going to get.


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