I’ve learned my lesson. I will not pronounce “good shoot” or “bad shoot” when reporting Officer Involved Shootings (OIS). For one thing, many members of TTAG’s Armed Intelligentsia are a lot more knowledgable of and experienced with these types of incidents than your humble scribe. Second, I’m from Rhode Island. When it comes to tales of criminality, I know that the first story is never the real story. This one from ktar.com sounds decidedly dodgy . . .
A 37-year-old officer was doing off-duty security near Interstate 17 and Cactus Road with another officer at an apartment complex when Duncan and 40-year-old Jonathan Parker showed suspicious behavior
The two officers chased the two suspects and scuffled with Duncan before he grabbed one of the officer’s Tasers and electrocuted the officer.
A suspiciously vague description of suspicious behavior if you ask me. And I’m sure our friends at TASER would prefer a different term for using a “shaped pulse” on a human subject. Electrically incapacitated? Anyway . . .
The officer said Duncan then aimed the Taser at his head and demanded his release.
The officer said he used his firearm on Duncan, who died at a hospital.
“As officers, that is the most vulnerable time that we have. So one can only imagine what could’ve occurred,” Thompson said.
The 37-year-old officer was treated and released and is on administrative leave.
Police arrested Parker, who has an outstanding misdemeanor warrant.
So a [presumed] bad guy Tased a cop, threatened to Tase him again and got a bad case of lead poisoning for his efforts. Again, I’m sure some readers will say that the as-always-unnamed, off-duty cop had just cause to let loose the dogs of war. But it does make you wonder what exactly went down, and why we the people, never get the straight dope on OISs.
I’m not saying this is right or wrong, but the department I work for told us “if they get your taser, shoot them.” I personally would try to create distance if possible, as it only has a range of 25 feet
Maybe your department should train you on how to not get your Taser taken to begin with. Paul T McCain can train you in situational awareness.
Situational awareness gets harder when you’re wrestling around on the ground.
When do cops wrestle on the ground anymore? 5 cars show up for every traffic stop and anyone who doesn’t instantly “comply” with their “commands” ends up getting tased, shot, beaten, etc.
And Jughead wonders why I said he hates cops. Another example right here…
Your ignorance is on full display here. Situational awareness is no way keeps cops out of danger at all times – just like it doesn’t keep civilians out of danger at all times. It’s nearly a universal PD\SO SOP that if someone gets a hold of your Taser, they’re getting a case of lead poisoning.
Your lack of reading comprehension is showing. You didn’t see the mention of learning situational awareness from Paul McCain?
Also, I hate to break it to you, but cops are civilians, even though they, and their worshippers such as yourself, don’t think so.
As far as making comparisons about keeping out of danger, everything a productive (ie, non-cop) member of society does in self-defense is under a microscope, and they don’t get to call in hordes of backup.
I’ll let you get back to playing cops, firefighters, and astronauts now.
Jughead, what do you have against firefighters and astronauts?
@ Jacob,
Firefighters and Astronauts aren’t shooting at you – so he probably has nothing against them.
A taser only fires once right?
So the perp was out of “bullets”
You can re-jolt if the darts are still in the skin, but you can’t fire another set into the cop.
Correct me if I have something wrong.
What you have wrong is that we all have to worship at the altar of the all-important “officer safety”; if an “officer” feels threatened, he is not beholden to the same laws/rules as the proletariat.
Easy mistake.
I’m willing to bet if this was a civilian, you would have no problem with him taking the shot. Your hate for LEO’s goes beyond a dislike for authority. Did you take a beatdown at some time in your life??
Jughead, you bring up some very excellent points. Unfortunately, this list seems to have it’s share of bored LEOs trolling online for excitement while they masturbate over the possibilities. They are, of course, followed by their equally Constitutionally out-to-lunch gaggle of “holster sniffers” who are more concerned with the appearance of being good little Brown Shirts than expecting any professional conduct from those who had sworn to protect their rights.
As you stated, there is a core group of solid professionals, and they are not the problem, yet it’s the “others” who continually violate their oath and then defend their actions; they are the problem. Let’s see how many heads pop up over that. Even if five squad cars pull up to address one suspected perp, somewhere in the crowd there must be at least ONE uniformed person who remembers the oath he took and who can manage a modicum of civility. If there aren’t, shame on them all; and shame on each of them who stands by and does nothing while elderly people are getting tased in their wheelchairs …….. or handcuffed people sitting on the curb are getting kicked in the head and ribs by some slopehead doughnut chomper with an attitude problem.
You nailed it.
Thank God for the few good LEOs that are around.
As I understand it, the Tazer has a back-up use as a stun gun so it can be used in that mode at ranges arms-length and under.
I live in Phoenix where this happened and I believe Phoenix PD was looking into getting new tasers that could fire up to 3 times. I think it was the Taser X3 if I’m not mistaken. I don’t know if that ever happened or if Taser actually ever released that type of Taser, though. But if that is the case, then that is most likely why the officer shot the subject. Good point, though, whoever mentioned Tasers only fire once. On the flip side, he still could have touched the officer with it and shocked him again as they are capable of doing that as well as deploying the prongs initially.
In the end, I have to say this was a good shoot if this is entirely how it went down and nothing was made up or fabricated. If the subject is willing to grab the officer’s Taser, what’s to stop him from attempting to grab his firearm? This guy had it coming as far as I’m concerned. At the end of the day, I’d like to hope all officers make it hope to their families.
Yes, there are some bad officers out there, actually there are a lot, but let’s not condemn them all.
Just my $0.02.
“Electrocute” means to kill by electric shock.
So apparently the officer defending himself was already dead at the time.
This was an AP story, which means it went past more than one editor who didn’t see a problem with the wording. You would think that the mainstream media, in its struggle to hold on to its disintegrating relevance, would try harder.
Yeah, I found that to be an exceedingly odd word choice, especially since I have never seen it used when a cop is the one holding the taser, and it’s a “perp” who has the darts in him.
Everyone likes to beat on AP, but dictionaries list the definition variously as “kill by electric shock” and “kill or injure by electric shock.”
There are dictionaries which claim that irregardless means the same thing as regardless, an obvious impossibility.
Electrocute refers to using electricity to execute a living being. A compound word form.
If the dude got his Taser, there’s a solid chance he could have got the cop’s sidearm as well. And despite their “non-lethal” status, a Taser CAN kill. I say good shoot.
In all actuality the “suspect” was within a few feet of the officer he shot, why did he not take the cop’s side arm when he was riding the lightning for five seconds. On top of that, why did the “suspect” allow the cop enough time to unholster his sidearm to shoot him? He could have just sent the cop on another five second ride… Something isn’t adding up.
He probably tried and couldn’t figure out how to unholster it. Most scumbags just pull up as hard as they can. I’m guessing the cop shot the guy with his BUG while on the ground and the guy was occupied with his main gun. This is just speculation of course.
I’m unsure if why they chased them, more information is required. So I’ll hold off on declaring it a good or bad shoot.
If he had been on duty and he and his partner had chased the two for a legitamate reason, then this happened it would have been a good shoot.
I will not question anyone’s integrity. But if you’re dealing with a recoil operated or gas pressure operated gun, and you expect a 50 gr, 2000 fps round to “function” the same as a 115 gr, 1150 fps round, well, someone needs to go back to physics class.
That would be my main concern. The .223 ammunition they make is 55 grain so it should be fine, but the handgun ammunition just sounds crazy on paper. It is light even for copper.
This could be a case of bad chase but good shoot. A cop simply cannot risk losing his gun. We know that. OTOH, we haven’t been told what kind of “suspicious behavior” alerted the cops in the first place.
Suspicious behavior can be anything, from passing a little parcel and cash hand-to-hand in a known drug supermarket area, to walking while black.
That’s about it. No idea from the story whether they had reason to detain. But a cop letting themselves get tasered is like letting themselves get knocked out. It’s incapacitation and the next step is the bad guy gets their gun and probably shoots them.
Interesting side note. A bullet proof vest magnifies and distributes a taser jolt over more surface area.
It’s a fun ride!
I’m not sure how that works but I’ve wondered if a shorting device (such as a small chain mail vest) could circumvent the effects of a taser….
Rounds will cook off in a fire, I’m
Not sure as to what the round is ballistically capable of.
The Sphinx series of pistol looks cool, is buy one but I’m inable to find one for a decent price.
I suppose running fire drills makes people apprehensive about fires as well. I can only imagine what happens to people who go through First Aid and CPR classes….
A few years, I volunteered to get jolted with a taser. All I can tell you is that when those five seconds were up, I definitely felt like shooting somebody. Terrible sensation, that. But then again, I’m not a cop whose supposed to be trained in its handling and use, so… yeah.
Hey, cool. There’s video of my tazing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeiLD79a_t4
Why were you wearing safety glasses? That seems very unnecessary.
No idea. Their idea not mine. I was fine with just the Foghorn Leghorn shirt for protection. Rooster, that is!
Phuck that! I see a taser in his hand, I’m cutting the hand off and then shooting him in the head.
And what about the idea that the Militia’s main purpose, was to provide an ultimate veto on the kind of drivel spouted by the likes of Stevens?
The “off-duty security” aspect is intriguing.
I know that from a liberal’s perspective, the goals of the public school system include indoctrinating generations of kids into becoming unquestioning Democrat voters tomorrow, as well as hiring on thousands of government workers at ridiculous pay to become loyal Democrat foot soldiers and money launderers today.
Still, my view is that education, as distinct from the public school system, serves the role of equipping the next generation with the facts, ideas, critically thinking and effective communication skills necessary to navigate life successfully. We could all debate that in detail, no doubt, but what should pass as common sense is the foolishness of playing permanent make-believe with the children and denying plain realities. The reality is that there are dangers out there. The prudent approach would be to recognize their relative likelihoods and magnitudes, and prepare in advance to prevent, counter, minimize and recover from them.
This professor characterizes that approach, in this case, as “needless.” The facts argue otherwise.
This is just the start.we need to stand up before they put more business killing fees on us like the methane tax for dairy cattle.
Okay, “active shooter” is a bullsh1t term that should be ditched. Here’s a few other bullsh1t terms that also need to go away: global warming, income inequality, common-sense gun safety and undocumented immigrant.
In other new… TTAG reviews all other ammo as being terrible!
I kid…
Good God some of you are just the gift of law enforcement! lol…The point here is that bad guy took good guys taser and used it once and was about to use it again when good guy shot bad guy! Damn good shoot! If bad guy will grab and use your taser, after you are down he probably will grab your gun. Good luck on fighting someone and trying to “create distance” after he grabs and points your taser at you…OMG
Never had a concern with TTAG’s credibility. I think they’ve earned at least that over the last few years. Was a little surprised at the immediate hostile reaction they received from some for taking on a sponsor.
Liberty ammunition won’t get a dime out of me because a) I have a ton of ammo and am not in the market for any and b) I prefer brands and bullet designs that have been around for at least a few decades. But then I’m not their target audience, so no loss there.
I have an 1894c I bought on a whim several years ago. It was made in North Haven and I’m not sure what year. The gun shop owner told me he had actually lost it in the back of his shop. He’d found it a couple of days earlier, and had to dust it off before putting it on the rack about 5 minutes before I walked in to but ammo for my S.& W. revolver. I’ve never regretted the purchase. I put a Skinner peep sight on it and it’s probably the best truck gun I’ve ever had. Handy, light, accurate within its range, and carries the same round as my revolver. I’ve taken 14 hogs, and 2 deer with it. I’m glad to see Marlin’s quality is coming back. The side ejection, even though I don’t have a scope it, is still my preference. The only thing that I find even slightly annoying is it doesn’t want to chamber another round if the rifle is leaning to the right. To left or vertical, its smooth as glass.
I’m concerned that most of us are missing the bigger picture. I believe that the solution to all of this is to home school or use private schools that have real security in place. Where is it written that you have to send your children to a govt. indoctrination center where their safety is even questioned? Or that they are bombarded with messages that are contrary to your own? And where they have to be in contact with other children that you wouldn’t let them hang out with in any other environment? If enough people take their children out of these govt. indoc ctrs then the indoctrination system will collapse and our country will produce more educated and aware citizens to forge a brighter future. Whatever your current circumstances it can be done. And who better to educate our children than the ones who love them most, their parents?
Cordially,
David
Using this stuff for function testing as long as accuracy is done with other stuff is what I recommended, so I’m good
Ah nice to know, if this is found to be a clean kill that means I can kill a cop who aims a taser at me and claim self defense.
Since they dreamednit reasonable to use lethal force against one.
My dad came up here this weekend for my birthday and brought back my Marlin 336 (30/30), my first deer rifle, they gave it to me in 1980. Just holding it last night brought back good memories, I haven’t shot it in 25 years or so. It’s been sitting in a soft case since then, but looks to be in pretty good shape. Need to break it down to check for rust and give it a good cleaning, and will be taking it out to the range next weekend. It is plain-jane right now, with the hooded front sight, I can remember that being very accurate, but I’ve also bought a rail for it and a scope (mostly because my eyes have aged so). Tempted to pick up that See Thru sight from earlier in the week and trying that out on this baby. I really look forward to shooting it again! Thanks to Larry for posting the link to the Cowboy Action Shooting site, I’ll have to check that out.
And shooting a lever in 45/70 is something I hope to do sometime, a friend has a Springfield ’84 trapdoor in that caliber that he and I are going to take out soon.
I’ve don’t have enough time to set the record straight regarding Tasers, but I’ll take a short route.
Electrocution has been replaced by Taserspeak “total neuromuscular incapacitation.” It’s a pain greater than pepper spray, knife cuts, tear gas, USMC boot camp, etc. When experiencing TMI, you will not have control of your skeletal muscles, which will all simultaneously be triggered to maximum contraction. Secondary effects include falling, muscle strains, and death by drowning or suffocation. One of my former trainees inadvertently killed a drug user experiencing excited delirium because the man kept fighting and subsequently had a heart attack. The TASER / TMI experience was too much to handle for the body and heart to take.
The TASER X2 holds 2 shots without reloading, and the rare X3 holds 3. Both the X2 and X3 can work as a contact stun gun without firing. The X26, M26, and C2 can work as a contact stun gun after firing. All systems can deliver multiple TMI “experiences” once the probes are in relatively close contact – 2″ or less – to the body.
Anyone who tries to Tase me will be treated with lethal force.
Regardless, each and every shooting must be judged based upon the totality of the circumstances.
I know many of the regulars here understand this, but just in case someone isn’t familiar with the terms, ‘off duty’ does not always mean walking around on your day off in your regular clothes and running errands.
An off duty _assignment_ is generally when a private entity pays the department so an officer will be assigned to them, in uniform and with full powers and duties, to perform a specific task. Guard an area with half a million dollars of construction materials and tools left overnight. Run traffic control for road construction crews. Keep people from fighting at a concert, etc.
You can ask why anyone should have to pay for this, since police are supposed to respond when a 911 call comes in. The answer is that if there are three or four cops assigned to the area where you would like constant coverage, you may be waiting a while if those guys are already on higher priority calls with a dozen calls holding. If you want a uniform stationed at your business for a whole shift, this is how it’s done.
As far as I know, a taser shock to the brain is a pretty dangerous thing, I would suspect holding any type of electric stun gun to someone’s head is a threat of lethal force.
being in a research community in other aspects of life, it is all about consistancy. It really doesn’t matter what ammo you used, as long as all the testing you do every gun gets the same. That way everyone has an even fair shot
I’d wait to learn why the cops were chasing the citizens before I recommend anyone make any judgment on which was the good guy. Cops no longer deserve presumption that they are the good guys, though they can be at times.
Wait wait wait
Two cops working security start chasing two guys that they ADMIT they didn’t have probable cause to chase (you know what “suspicious behavior” is without a specific crime to be suspicious of? It’s nothing), TACKLE THE GUYS and start roughing them up, and then get so bent out of shape when the victim retaliates using the cops allegedly non-lethal weapon against him, that he plugs him full of holes?
Unless it comes out that the victims were actually doing something that was suspicious of an actual crime, it sounds to me like the cops wanted to rough up someone who looked suspicious to them (black, poor, etc.).
It’s an important lesson, though. If a cop decides to rough you up because you look funny, if you’re going to defend yourself you’re going to have to kill him.
I have NO problem with TTAG gun or ammo reviews. You’re not Gunblast or Hickock. I like both( especially Jeff Quinn) but as far as I can see he never had a negative review. Hickock is almost equally positive. TTAG reviews tell the warts & all truth. Understand I know the aforementioned sites don’t want to damage anyones business. I also don’t CARE if Liberty ships to Illinois. I buy ALL my ammo & guns in Indiana( a mile from the border). And I’ve seen plenty of Liberty ammo at Cabelas.
What rambling nonsense. You really need to trust in a magical zombie (that watches you while you sin) in order to believe in self-defense? What a small universe you must live in.
So…..Police carry Tasers because they are a “NON-LETHAL” device.
Supposedly, a lethal shooting would only be justified if the officer were in fear of his life.
But how can you be in fear of your life if the bad guy has a NON-LETHAL weapon???
Seems like trying to have it both ways.
Call me cynical, but I lived too long in Las Vegas where EVERY police shooting is always “justified”, whether the “perp” is dribbling a volleyball, sitting in a car, legally carrying a concealed weapon, or whatever “suspicious activity” might have sealed their fate.
Why did the second officer not Tazer the perp?
In Arizona in a DGU situation a civilian may use his weapon to shoot someone in defense of his own life or others. The officer is going to have to justify his life was in imminent danger and the life of the officer laying in a pool of urine, stool, and saliva.
It comes down to training. I live in the Phoenix area and I am friends with Three Phoenix Police officers and a Scottsdale Detective. I work in an ICU.
You grab a cops weapon whether it is a lethal or non lethal weapon and threaten him with it your life is forfeit. Does it make it right in this Politically Correct society we live in? Could the cop have used non lethal force? Maybe but probably not. Seconds count and if those seconds are the difference between your life or the life of a fellow officer verses the life of someone willing to kill you then it is an easy choice.
Details will come out soon enough I will get them from my friends and comment again.
KTAR is not a reliable source of news. They lean very moderate and very liberal with regards to guns.
KFYI in phoenix is the local FOX affiliate and owned by clearchannel. several hosts are second amendment advocates. Mike Broomhead and Barry Young. Barry Youngs cohost is a liberal on the second amendment but wears short skirts.
Do NOT take KTAR reports as accurate reporting.
I have the God/no god arguement once in awhile with atheist commenters on various blogs. i simply say that if there is no God then when I die I will never know it. But, when you die, and God does exist, what will you say when you stand before Him in His righteous judgement? That usually reduces them to incoherent babbling about books of fairy tales (the Bible), and keep your religious laws out of my goverment. I simply wish them good luck and promise to pray for them. That induces a fresh round or vitupertive insults. Every single atheist that I know are truly afraid, deep down inside, that they will be judged. Sad.
That self-righteous diatribe just insulted those who choose not to believe what you believe, while accusing them of being the ones who are insulting.
It’s cute that you insult those who don’t believe in ghost stories.
To build on this post:
After having visited Gun Rights Mordor (LA), I think the problem is a lot more nuanced then a simple clashing of worldviews, or emotion vs logic . I’m sure that’s the case for some folks, but we run the risk of duplicating our opponents’ mistakes by labelling all anti-gunners as progressive ‘statists’.
As I see it, the first problem is ironically a byproduct of our own standard of living. Because violence is rare in most areas of America- that is, places where dope dealing isn’t the strongest local employer- the average Joe doesn’t see rampant violence, so they dont consider it a problem requiring a firearm to solve. Even in right to carry states, less then 20% of folks actually go about armed on a daily basis. Since being killed in a car wreck is significantly more likely statistically then being involved in a DGU, we get the “paranoia” label because of it. What, you’re afraid of getting shot in Hollywood/ Beverly Hills/ Sioux Falls SD/ Des Moines IA? The most violent thing I saw in a week in California was a fight between two chicks outside a Sunset Blvd. bar. It would be easy to assume the average man doesn’t need a gun if I didn’t know any better-and how would an average non-vet Angelino know better, given the stringent regulations?
The next problem is social utility. On some level, even libertarians have to concede that some things require a government to regulate. Why? Because the social utility of a standing, competent national military outweighs the social problem of being conqured by China.
So it goes for firearms. In pro-restriction areas, the perceived daily utility of guns ( zero,unless you’ve had some education on self defense ) is outweighed by the perceived social utility of bans and legislation in preventing crime and negligence. This is why the Sandy Hook debate on school security went nowhere, because the Risk v Reward calculation goes in wildly different results depending on the person’s interaction with guns.
If one doesn’t know how guns work, then they would appear to be an unacceptable risk no matter the circumstances.
What’s needed is not debate. What’s needed is education,because the laws millions live under today are determined based on a grevious error- not knowing the basics about the subject matter in question. The ignorance is then perpetuated over time until it becomes a cultural norm.
That is why debate gets us nowhere, because terms like “self defense” and ” criminal deterrence” have no meaning to people who’ve never encountered the concepts before-and are now doing so for the first time under challenge. That’s why , I submit, we get the emotional response: because you cannot counter logically what you do not know.
So. The way forward for us isn’t beating people down intellectually. What we have to do, again, is educate.Because all those folks living in disarmed Amercia cannot teach their kids about rights they don’t know they have.
^this^
I’m with RF. THIS story STINKS. Not enough information here. In uniform? Suspicious behavior? Electrocuted!?! Wow I don’t have a CLUE what really happened. To me it looks like a man was murdered by an off duty cop. But I don’t really have a clue.
I think they ought to quite using the term ‘active shooter’ at all to describe these thugs. How about ‘active murderer’? I’m a shooter, and I take offense to calling a murderous thug a ‘shooter’. That murderer has very little actual interest in firearms, outside of his ability (if I could even call it that) to kill with it. I have great interest in them, and enjoy shooting them. Complete opposites. Probably part of the media’s attempt to further demonize guns and those who own them.
My wife and I both keep $100 bill on our key chains (in a cash can from Sunshine) and I keep a extra $10 in the ID section of my wallet. As noted above, some places will not accept hundreds, at least not for a small purchase.
I stopped reading when the Bible thumping started, but it was a good read up until then. You want to talk about fact, and then bring up God? Before you start calling people irrational hypocrites, check yourself. If anyone of us defends our self in a DGU its not because God gave you the inspiration to tool up. Its because you the individual made the smart decision to do so. And if you die, it’s not because it was ” Your time”. It’s because you failed to do something. Your reflexes were lacking, or your judgement was lacking. That or see below…
And what of an active shooter situation? The BG walks into a place, finds his first target, decides to shoot, whips out a hidden weapon and cracks one off. Let alone if it were a DC Sniper type situation and innocents were being dropped from 200+ yards, suppressed. Someone hears the shot draws there own piece, and takes out the perp. What about the first victim (child, eldery, Navy Seal)? Was that some sort of divine happening, or were they just a matter of happenstance? Collateral damage?
Bringing God into the firearms debate is not what we need to do. The same goes for any debate. I’m not saying its hogwash or that you aren’t entitled to your beliefs. But in a longstanding debate that requires overwhelming amounts facts and logic to win, God is not welcome. And I’ll understand if you throw your hands up and not continue the conversation.
Here is a little more.
http://www.kshb.com/news/region-kansas/overland-park/multiple-shootings-reported-at-the-jewish-community-center-in-overland-park
It’s not only the Guns/God issue that some will not accept, It’s the fact that the government itself and they thinking they are god too . Sample here is a item I get into it with some people , that fossil fuel is a MYTH, that the government and news media and our education does not lie …. but the real truth is the truth is VERY CONTROLED in America…(The Great OIL conspiracy by J.R.Corsi), get back at me …. A have a very large library of hard to find or get books etc….as the bible says :in their wisdom they became fools …. THE media outside America is controlled too…. but leaks happen more often…
BLACKS ARE NOT VIOLENT
THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS UNJUST AGAINST BLACKS & HISPANICS & LGBT’S
BLACK STUDENTS ARE BEING TARGETED BY UNFAIR DISCIPLINE PRACTICES BY PUBLIC SCHOOL OFFICALS ACROSS AMERICA, BUT ESPECIALLY IN THE DEEP SOUTH & NORTHEAST!
NAAWP CALLS “BULL$HYT” ON THE SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW SINNERS AND THE ANTI-DEFACATION LEAGUERS IN 2014
AND PROVIDES PROOF: http://WEAPONSMAN.COM/?P=9505
IRONICALLY – SOOOOO DOES THE FBI – CIA – NSA – DHS – DOJ – IRS- THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION IN 2014
NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF WHITE PEOPLE
MARK TRAINA – PRESEIDENT – CEO – NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON
PGT – Despite your using “umm” to declare your intellectual superiority, the fact is that Fascism is hard to discern from progressivism. Take away the obvious, what did German Fascism do as far as the assertion of government authority that the modern progressive left would not like to do?
I am not saying Democrat=Hitler, what I am saying is that the policies and methodologies are a great deal more parallel than your garden variety Democrat realizes. ESPECIALLY on gun control, property rights and the participation of the government in economic life.
I love this blog but y’all are some police hating SOBs. Led, by the Po-Po hater in chief, the “humble scribe” Farrago. It is beyond ridiculous at this point, the level of 5-o hate that is.
Very hard to say what happened from the story; too many pronouns. 2 officers, but they never identify which was disarmed and which shot. Was it the same officer? It even sounds like one of the officers might not have been present at all for the scuffle.
I would be very interested in how the tazed officer was able to shoot the bad guy after being tazed. Was he shot with the tazer? At what range? The Bad Guy didn’t just run? How long did it take the officer to recover from being tazed and then be able to use his/her weapon? Everyone here makes it sound like you are fairly incapacitated for at least a while after being tazed…
There just isn’t enough information, and what there is has been filtered by the journalist’s “reporting”.
Here’s a link to the article from one of our news stations here in Phoenix. One officer stayed with one subject as the other officer chased the other one when he was eventually tased after the brief struggle with the subject.
http://www.azfamily.com/home/Man-dies-after-officer-involved-shooting-255000801.html
That is more complete….
According to the story it seems the bad guy struggled after he was at least in the process of being cuffed. He tazed the officer (presumably at contact range) and then recovers(?). The bad guy was at least partially handcuffed at the time he pointed the tazer at the officer and was shot.
Does that seem right?
Yes sir… that is what I assumed when it mentioned he demanded that the officer “release” him. Perhaps the officer as in the process of cuffing him when he decided he wasn’t going to jail. No need to worry about that anymore, though, sadly.
Getting tasered doesn’t mean our incapacitated for hours, just temporarily. I’ve seen incidents where the perp has been tasered multiple times before going down, simply because they were high on a substance. Different body types will recover faster after being tased and others will take less time.
We were taught weapon retention for this reason
IE. Getting “Tased” —— shortcut ——> murdered.
I would consider use of a taser as an aggressive action, not used in defense, as a threat to life, due to the temporary incapacitation leaving you defenseless during that period of time to any and all attacks.
The problem with tasering is that someone with a pre-existing acidic constitution (and it is common), fatigue, oxygen depletion or even an electrolyte imbalance (which can actually be expected during times of exertion), can exacerbate more severe spasms, lactate overload can easily lead to fatality.
“Thus, it is negligently irresponsible to continue allowing human beings to be subjected to Taser strikes, until AFTER those allowed to use Tasers are adequately educated how NOT to cause restraint asphyxia.”
http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB07/2006AugTruthAboutTasers.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid
Since the average LEO is in that vocation because they’ve already proven themselves to be aptitude challenged, putting tasers in their response arsenal and expecting them to be able to diagnose their intended victims before lashing out in response to themselves getting raped in their childhood is just an invitation to killing someone. Makes one wonder how the police ever managed to function during the last thousand years without tasers.
You’re not going to pronounce whether it’s a “good shoot” or “bad shoot” when reporting OIS, but then you say the story “sounds decidedly dodgy.” Sounds like you are still calling it a bad shoot to me.
No one here can say for sure unless they were there. There general “Fuck da police!” attitude some of the posters have here is pretty damn funny, especially since it’s the same method of thinking that those who try to restrict guns follow. I mean, if one gun owner is bad, they all are, right?
Typical “anti” thought is that only the authorities need guns, they will take care of you, and are trained professionals. Stop laughing, they mean it.
We really need more details to judge – the story says that two officers had chased and scuffled with Duncan. If both were on scene and had him cornered, then my feeling is that it wasn’t justified, as the 2nd officer was there to support the officer who lost his taser.
The problem, though, is that the exact circumstance is ambiguous. Did they scuffle first, then split up when the suspect fled? Was the 2nd officer close enough to assist? Could they radio for more support? What, exactly, constitutes “scuffling” and “suspicious behavior”? What precipitated the confrontation?
With just that scant information, I can think of any number of scenarios between justifiable self-defense and cold-blooded murder. While I’m instinctively skeptical of police spin, I think it’s way too early to judge.
I just think that cops should be held to the same rules as us. After all, that is the definition of “Justice.” If A guy tases me and ten threatens to do it again and I shoot and kill him – is it justifiable?
Here’s my take: anything that puts you at such a disadvantage and can potentially take you out of the fight and incapacitate you like a TASER can is a losing proposition and can mean the difference between life and death, especially as a law enforcement officer. Incapacitation by TASER=serious risk of grave bodily harm in my book.
WPH,
Please refer to my post of April 13, 2014 at 18:43.
As far as the police, the “Fun Gun” reminds me of this sick twisted bastard I used to mow lawns with when I was a teenager. While the crew was having lunch, he’d be out chasing down a toad or some other unfortunate critter, lash it onto some hastily made crucifix, douse it with gasoline, and then fry the poor thing to a cinder.
The mind of a criminal hasn’t changed just because we happened to have discovered electricity, nor have the minds of those who seek to vindicate themselves of the desire to torture people simply because they’ve managed to stay on the legal side of the law, as LEOs have. We can continue to tell ourselves that not all cops are bad, but when the rubber meets the road, how many of them are actually capable of doing the right thing and following their oath instead of ‘taking care of their own’ in a questionable situation? In addition to the guilty, we now have the complicit. Now, the number of the trustworthy start to plummet.
I had occasion, back in the ’70s, to be visiting an apartment where another visitor had too much to drink and was getting a little noisy. The elderly couple next door would complain if the tenants smoke alarm went off in the kitchen. Nevertheless, we get a knock on the door by the local gendarmes. One of them is your perfect LEO; polite, understanding the situation and looking for a meaningful resolution; the other was like a rabid pit bull looking to tear someone to shreds. I couldn’t believe these two were partners. Anyway, I spent the better part of their visit having to convince the first officer to put his freakin’ dog on a leash before someone got needlessly hurt. His partner was clearly not fit for service that day.
But back to tasers, there are clearly too many medical complications that can arise from the use of tasers simply because an officer lacks the necessary communications skills or has a hair across his ass. That isn’t what they are being paid for. If they wish to be treated like professionals, they need to act the part. Those who know what I’m talking about will understand; the rest of them will be on the defensive, along with their apologist holster-sniffing entourage.
BR549,
I was just responding to the post by Anonymous regarding whether or not the threat of a TASER being used against you is a justifiable reason for the use of deadly force.
I simply believe that if I am facing muscular incapacitation, I lose. I may lose my weapon in the process and would have no way to defend myself, potentially resulting in my death or grave bodily harm. Not an outcome I am willing to accept.
Anyone who know’s anything about a taser knows if you get hit with one especially several times more then likely they are going to be able to get your gun and hurt/kill you and others. To comment on this post
Chris Mallory
April 13, 2014
Just a tax fattened thug using tax payer provided equipment and uniforms to make his own pockets even fatter. Government employees should be forbidden from working second jobs of any kind and should also be forbidden from earning any overtime.
I cannot speak for anyone but myself but id say you owe me some money. Here in ohio I paid for the academy and all my training myself I paid for all of my equipment myself and I have been working as a deputy sheriff for free. So every once in a while I work a well paying side job. I don’t get paid for the normal hours I put in with the sheriff’s office and I’ve paid for everything myself sooo you might want to do some research before you speak, it may save you from looking like a fool.