Officers Killed with own Gun vs Officers Feloniously Killed 1980 – 2014

Officers feloniously killed in U.S. (red)  Killed with own gun (green)

A common worry amongst people considering open carry: a gun grab. They worry that someone will take their gun from them and use it against them. I have yet to find a case in the United States where that’s happened to an armed citizen who wasn’t a law officer. Cops almost always open carry, and some have been victims of gun grabs. As the graph above indicates, the numbers are vanishingly small. [Click here for a link to the data sources used to construct the graphic.] In the last 10 years the average number of officers killed with their own gun was . . .

2.2 per year. According to the FBI UCR numbers, the average of all officers feloniously killed  is 50. Gun grabs account for 4.4 percent of officers feloniously killed in the last 10 years with their own weapons. The number of sworn police officers in the United States in that period has averaged about 523 thousand a year. So the rate of police open carriers who are killed with their own guns is about .42 per 100,000. It’s not zero, but it is low.

On the other side of the coin, police inject themselves into dangerous situations. By the nature of their job, they get into physical confrontations with criminals, drunks, and drugged individuals while armed. So they are far more likely to be in situations where a weapons snatcher has motivation to do so.

The number of police killed with their own guns has gone down. That’s most likely due to the increased use retention holsters while carrying. At the same time, they are better trained at retaining their weapons. And the police often wear body armor designed to stop the projectiles carried in their service weapons.

The first defense against a weapons snatch: situational awareness.  Be aware of people around you. Avoid confrontations, especially with argumentative, drunk, or drugged individuals. Of course, by open carrying, there is tactical deterrence; many criminals and aggressors will leave you alone because they see that you are armed, just as they will avoid the police.

Basic weapons retention is a good skill to acquire. Simple techniques can do quite a bit for weapons retention with minimal training.  Any kind of retention holster, from a simple thumb break on up, makes a weapons snatch more difficult.

Note: level 2 and level 3 retention holsters make it very difficult to snatch a weapon; they also are more expensive and take practice to operate at speed. As in all things, there are cost and benefit ratios to consider. Is a top level retention holster necessary for open carry? Probably not, but it is worth consideration – especially if you carry in an area with a high crime rate.

©2015 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice and link are included.
Link to Gun Watch


  1. avatar Hannibal says:

    It’s difficult to take much away from stats like that because they’re all over the board thanks to the relatively small sample size. I’d also be interested in seeing a similar graph stretching back to the 60s before police started using true ‘retention’ holsters and receiving formal weapon retention training.

    1. avatar Chip Bennett says:

      How do you figure 500k daily open carriers, over a ten-year period, is a small sample size? Unless you mean the relatively few number of incidents/fatalities? In that case, I’d agree that the signal-to-noise ratio from year to year is quite low. But the ultimate point isn’t the yearly variability, but rather the overall scarcity of such fatalitirs.

      1. avatar Hannibal says:

        The graph is only representing officers killed, so that’s what I’m thinking about.

        1. avatar JR_in_NC says:

          The 500k open carriers are the cops. That’s the point the article was making.

          Cops are open carriers, and there are (roughly) a half million of them on the street every day. That we don’t see “gun grab” as the daily, weekly or monthly headline is the story.

          There are two offsetting factors that differentiate LEO open carriers from non-LEO open carriers:

          (1) LEO’s put themselves into bad situations that increase the likelihood of a gun grab attempt (of either holstered or drawn weapon)


          (2) There are numerous factors that may prevent someone from ‘attacking’ a cop that would not prevent them from attacking a non-cop.

          Of course, that said, there’s no way for the bad buy to really know an OCing person is not a cop, so…

          I really wish we knew more about these 2-ish incidents per year…if they were circumstances that cops get in by non-cop OC-ers would not likely find themselves.

          Either way, using the BIG BAD of “gun grab” as an anti-OC argument is not rational…

        2. avatar NineShooter says:

          I think the point Hannibal is making above (as well as Cliff H is making in point #3, below), is that there could be 10,000 officers per year shot with their own pistols after a gun grab, but if none of them died (as cops wear body armor rated to stop their own duty ammo) then NONE of those 10,000 gun grabs would appear anywhere on that chart.

          This would be considered important because:
          A) Most non-cop open-carriers do not wear body armor, and
          B) Even with level 2 and 3 security holsters, weapon-retention training, and exploiting the natural reluctance of many (most?) folks to attack a cop (due to potential additional/higher-level charges), a lot of cops were still getting attacked, and non-cop open carriers normally have none of these advantages (although getting a security holster and protective vest is possible in some states, many formal weapon-retention classes are limited to L.E. only or are only taught as a small part of high-cost week-long training classes).

          I imagine most officers and departments are not inclined to reveal how many cops are victims of successful gun-grabs that do not result in the officer’s death. So we have no real/accurate way of knowing just how bad the basic problem really is, just the worst-case outcome as shown in the chart.

    2. avatar Cliff H says:

      As with all statistics/graphs, the real information is what is left out.

      Of the sample (police officers open carrying their pistols) the important information is not how many were killed with their own weapon, but:

      1. How many attempts were made to grab that pistol from the police officer WHILE IT WAS STILL HOLSTERED.
      2. How many LEOs shot and/or killed with their own pistol already had that pistol unholstered before the grab?
      3. How many LEOs had their pistol snatched, under any circumstances, were shot with it, but did not die?
      4. How many LEOs unholstered their pistol and then forgot about it and left it behind in a restroom or other unsecure location?

      Inquiring minds want to know.

      1. avatar Indiana Tom says:

        Good points.
        Interesting question is how many lost their guns? Even if latter found.

  2. avatar Chip Bennett says:

    I’ve been pointing out these numbers to open-carry naysayers for a while now. The claim that open carriers will have their carried pistols snatched and used against them is simply not based in reality.

    I’ve found that OWB carry is darn comfortable, whether concealed or open. So, my Christmas present was a level 2 retention Safariland holster. I’m going to try it out with some USPSA shooting (also a first) next week.

    1. avatar James in AZ says:

      People I know that don’t open carry, including myself, have almost the same reasons: don’t want suicide by cop / don’t wanna be the first guy killed in an attack. I dunno if there are statistics supporting those or not though.
      Until the day everyone in the US straps a gun in the open, which is one of the few things that are absolutely impossible, probably I’ll keep carrying concealed.
      Ya sure ya wanna do dat?

      1. avatar JR_in_NC says:

        “People I know that don’t open carry, including myself, have almost the same reasons: … don’t wanna be the first guy killed in an attack. I dunno if there are statistics supporting those or not though.”

        There’s not because it doesn’t happen. It doesn’t happen.

        “Until the day everyone in the US straps a gun in the open,”

        Why is this a criterion? This makes no sense whatsoever for any reason.

        “I’ll keep carrying concealed.”

        Good for you. Thanks for sharing.

        “Ya sure ya wanna do dat?”

        What does that mean?

        1. avatar James in AZ says:

          So feel free to enjoy it when cops get called on you, come up with a bogus “resonable suspicion”, ask for ID, run you through the system, accidentally leave a record of contact, toss your 2000 dollar 1911 on the ground. You say one thing off, guns get pulled with finger on the trigger, they force you face into the dirt, cuffs on, talk to you while you sit on that plastic back seat where who-knows-what has been vomitted onto, flick open your EDC blade, declaring it centrifugal because it could be flung open, then arrest you, and put an end to your job, car loan and house loan. Probably they’ll just let you walk, and it’s a great day uh?
          Being shot first? Probably not. But were I a terrorist I’d do it. You say it never happened, yea, until it does. Until the day an ISIS attack happens in AZ, we’ll see. Concealing your strength will reduce the resources allocated to you by the enemy, that’s for sure.
          Why was that a reason? Cuz carrying a gun open is great to us on TTAG, not at all normal for the vast majority. Accept the fact. Even in places extremely pro-gun, a rifle on the back in Walmart will get second look no matter what you say.
          What does that mean? That means I was asking if he was sure he wanted to do it. It was written that way to reduce stiffness so he doesn’t take it too seriously and feel too bad. No good deed goes unpunished uh?

        2. avatar JR_in_NC says:

          You want a paper bag to help with that hyperventilating?

          When we set aside our histrionic emotional response and look at things rationally, a calmer picture regarding Open Carry emerges. People don’t notice, no one usually cares, it’s just another day.

          “So feel free to enjoy it when cops get called on you,”

          I’ve OC-d and never had it happen. I see folks OC-ing regularly without that happening.

          Might it happen some day at some point?

          Sure. But who really cares. Someone could call a cop on you for just about anything these days. I don’t lose sleep over what might happen, some day, especially when it’s through nothing I do or don’t do.

          Since my children are home schooled and thus are “out and about” often during the day, I’m FAR, FAR more likely to get a cop called on me because my children are not “in school.” Believe me, that’s gotten me a TON more dirty looks and negative comments than a visible firearm holstered on my hip.

          “come up with a bogus “resonable suspicion”, ask for ID, run you through the system, accidentally leave a record of contact,”

          Don’t really care. If a cop asks me for id (which can happen ANY time for ANY “reasonable suspicion”), I’ll show it to him.

          Leave a record of contact? So what. I mean, I’m as libertarian as the next guy in my thinking, but really…this is not something (a) that has ever happened, (b) that I worry about happening, (c) would cause me to worry if it DOES happen.

          So, a cop answers a call and asks me for ID. Big deal.

          “toss your 2000 dollar 1911 on the ground.”

          Straw man. I don’t own, or carry, a $2000 1911.

          If you do, and that happens, that “loss” is the consequence of a decision you make. Any EDC firearm is subject to loss or damage. Again, worrying about such stuff is just so completely below my radar I can’t imagine having nightmares over it.

          “You say one thing off, guns get pulled with finger on the trigger, they force you face into the dirt, cuffs on, talk to you while you sit on that plastic back seat where who-knows-what has been vomitted onto, flick open your EDC blade, declaring it centrifugal because it could be flung open, then arrest you,”

          Yeah, no. Every encounter I’ve ever had with cops, especially in regard to firearms, has been nothing less than professional.

          Here’s the thing…having actually been a cop, cops have this thing call “threat assessment.” A dude walking down the street or shopping with a holstered firearm is not a threat. Merit looking into? MAYBE.

          Going whole hog over nothing? Nah. Not so much.

          Does this kind of thing happen occasionally? Again, MAYBE. But, it makes the news precisely because it is so rare, AND it tends to happen in Progressive hell-holes…places that I avoid religiously.

          Here in the “real world,” it’s just not something that happens frequently enough to fret over. You make it sound like this is the “norm” and I can assure you, at least where I live, it most certainly is not. Perhaps anywhere, except maybe NYC or LA or some such.

          Something about avoiding “Stupid Places” comes to mind…

          “put an end to your job, car loan and house loan. Probably they’ll just let you walk, and it’s a great day uh?”

          Fear monger much?

          Geez, it must be tough going to through life so scared.

          Again, here in the real world, this does not happen anywhere near often enough so as to cause ulcers.

          I live my life, man. That’s it. I make my choices, and I can live with the consequences. Too dang bad if that is threatening in some way. I ain’t asking for your permission or approval. In short, if you’ve got a problem with Open Carry…that’s YOUR problem, not mine.

          “Being shot first? Probably not.”

          Yeah, so you admit the thesis of literally half your point was nonsense.

          “But were I a terrorist I’d do it.”

          More fear mongering. Do what you got to do, there, Mr. Terrorist. Take your best shot and we’ll see what happens. That’s pretty much going to be the case in any terrorist attack.

          When you trot out this “get shot first” tripe, you seem to be assuming that OC-ers have zero situational awareness.

          AND, there are 1000 ways a terrorist can attack that gets the drop of EVERYBODY, OC-ing, CC-ing or not carrying at all. Any surprise attack is just that…a surprise. Given that most terrorist attacks are not targeting individuals, they don’t know who is going to be there. I doubt they even notice if anyone is OC-ing at a location…from the videos and analyses I’ve see, they pretty much barrel in and open fire. It’s not like they stand around pin pointing specific targets.

          This whole “point” is a straw man, but keep letting fear trump logic. I don’t care what you do.

          “You say it never happened, yea, until it does.”

          Yeah, when it does, it does. So be it.

          You are FAR, FAR, FAR more likely to get killed by someone running a red light. Are you going to stop driving? I mean, you haven’t been killed by someone running a red light yet…so it has never happened, until it does.

          “Until the day an ISIS attack happens in AZ, we’ll see.”

          This is called “Moving the Goal Posts Fallacy.” You’ve gone from criminal attack to (presumably) organized terrorist attack / pseudo-military action.

          And again, ISIS can attack in MANY ways that CC-ing won’t help you either. Gonna stop CC-ing because they could ram a car-bomb into the restaurant you are eating at or set a night club on fire?

          “Concealing your strength will reduce the resources allocated to you by the enemy, that’s for sure.”

          Pure fantasy, but whatever.

          Again, we can cite a specific, documented case where OC has deterred an armed robbery. Criminals are generally deterred by unweak victims. Terrorists don’t seem to care one way or another, beyond perhaps specifically picking LOCATIONS that are weak.

          “not at all normal for the vast majority.”

          I really don’t care. I don’t wear ‘fashion’ because it’s popular (or defines as ‘normal’) and I sure don’t carry a gun for such stupid reasons.

          “Accept the fact.”

          Sure, I accept that it is a completely, and totally irrelevant fact.

          “Even in places extremely pro-gun, a rifle on the back in Walmart will get second look no matter what you say.”

          Wow…okay. Again, so what. I don’t care about “second looks” from people I don’t know. And, again, Moving the Goal Post. We WERE talking about OC-ing handguns…a holstered gun that happens to be visible. Now we’ve shifted to rifles in Walmart?

          Meh. Whatever.

          “What does that mean? That means I was asking if he was sure he wanted to do it.”

          Not your decision and not your place to even ask that question. I trust him to be a grown man and being capable to look at a complex issue and make up his own mind, not hurl a bunch of emotional bleating at him trying to get him to see the “error of his ways.”

          “It was written that way to reduce stiffness so he doesn’t take it too seriously and feel too bad. “

          Cuz feelings. Got it.

      2. avatar Chip Bennett says:

        People I know that don’t open carry, including myself, have almost the same reasons: don’t want suicide by cop / don’t wanna be the first guy killed in an attack.

        Irrational fears are irrational. A holstered, openly carried firearm will not lead to suicide by cop, nor will it lead to being more likely to being the first guy killed in an attack. (It’s more likely to deter that attack in the first place.)

        Ya sure ya wanna do dat?

        I’m quite sure that, if I choose to use an OWB holster, I want it to be a level 2 retention holster.

        1. avatar James in AZ says:

          Rock on man. Just be nice to the cops if they come, keep scanning 360 and overhead, and keep a harmless demeanor amd expression

        2. avatar Chip Bennett says:

          You’re assuming I’ll ever open carry. I have always carried concealed – generally with an IWB holster, but sometimes with an OWB holster. Even concealed, I’ve never been comfortable relying solely on friction for retention when carrying OWB. So, I had been looking, for a long time, for a level 2 retention holster.

          At some point, I may open carry – primarily, to support the rights of those who choose to carry openly. Fortunately, it’s no big deal here in Indiana – much like it is no big deal for you out in AZ. But I really get tired of seeing a segment of our own castigated for lawfully exercising their rights differently from others.

        3. avatar James in AZ says:

          Agreed. To me open vs concealed it’s a tactical decision over anything else. It woulda been a much better world where people who would knee jerk on anyone with a gun do not exist, putting this OC vs CC debate to an end.
          As a side note, do you know of any IWB holster featuring 2 levels of retention instead of friction alone, yet having less bulk than a thumbbreak, AND can be quickly undone by weak hand only? I’ve been searching for one for a long time

  3. avatar jwm says:

    Something else to consider. Over the years I’ve seen cases reported where bad guy got control of an officers weapon and couldn’t make it go bang cause it’s manual of arms was unfamiliar to him.

    Glocks and other glock type weapons, including my beloved revolvers will go bang if the trigger is pulled. If open carry comes to CA I might want to look into a semi with a manual safety.

    1. avatar Cliff H says:

      Apparently a lot of POTG have some issue with the magazine drop safety issue. As I carry a Ruger S9c with the manual safety off and one in the chamber I rather like the idea that in a scuffle or grab I could conceivably press the mag release and render the weapon ineffective even if the BG gets it away from me since it will not fire if the mag is even out of battery, much less dropped to the ground.

      So long as I am carrying an extra mag I have the advantage should I regain control of the pistol (in the remote likelihood that such a grab takes place at all) in that I know to either return the mag to battery before attempting to fire, or slap the extra mag into place and commence “shooting to stop the threat”.

      1. avatar Hannibal says:

        That seems like such a low possibility outcome that I can’t even see it as worthy of inclusion. And what’s good for the goose is good for the gander… what happens if, in a scuffle, the bad guy hits the magazine release? You think you’re going to have time to insert a magazine if you have to use it?

        I think the same way about manual safeties. I have one and use it, but only because the gun I have basically requires it for safety given the manual or arms.

        1. avatar JR_in_NC says:

          “I think the same way about manual safeties. I have one and use it, but only because the gun I have basically requires it for safety given the manual or arms.

          Either this or pressing a mag drop safety button is a lot of fine motor control for a grappling situation I’m guessing.

          It’d be fun to test it in some Force on Force training. Are either of these REALLY a concern?

          I can’t say I’ve ever been concerned a bad guy managed to put the safety on on my carry piece were we struggling for the gun. At that point, retention would be my #1 goal, with shooting down the list. If I get operational control of the weapon, I can thumb the safety (and would? hopefully).

          I guess I’m saying on the list of things to worry about while grappling in a retention scenario, whether the safety is on or not is probably pretty low on the list.

          Dropping the mag and not having it? That’s another kettle of fish. If I (or the baddie) drops the mag and renders my weapon unable to fire (hypothetically…my EDC does not have a mag drop “safety”), that makes that gun useless for either of us. This is a far different concern, and warrants, in my opinion, not having the mag drop safety.

      2. avatar Tim says:

        Dropping the mag (in a pistol with a mag safety) was taught for many years (and especially pre-Glock) as a means of rendering the pistol inoperable during a struggle.

        As for the comment that this makes the gun useless to the officer as well, remember that the officer typically has a spare mag, whereas the bad guy doesn’t. If the officer drops mag and manages to regain control of his pistol, he can bring it back into action with a spare mag.

        1. avatar JR_in_NC says:

          “As for the comment that this makes the gun useless to the officer as well, remember that the officer typically has a spare mag, whereas the bad guy doesn’t. If the officer drops mag and manages to regain control of his pistol, he can bring it back into action with a spare mag.”

          A fair point.

          But, when I brought it up, I was thinking in the bigger picture of mag drop safeties in context of EDC for non-LEO’s. Not everyone carries spare mags, but this is a very good reason to do so if one’s pistol has that mechanism.

          One could also argue LEO’s tend to have other weapons readily available (BUG, Asp, OC, etc).

          Still, I’d say mag drop safety is one of those things that is an advantage in some contexts and a clear disadvantage in others. No panaceas.

    2. avatar James in AZ says:

      Make sure it’s slide-mounted and gets to Safe when you rack it LOL

  4. avatar LarryinTX says:

    Terminology question. If you take an officer’s gun and kill him with it, isn’t that a felony? Are the felonious figures including the “own gun” figures?

    1. avatar the ruester says:

      If the gun goes off mid struggle, I don’t really see how it wouldn’t be felony murder, even if the suspect never technically “gained control” of the weapon. It certainly wouldn’t be sane to call it “ND.”

      Likewise, if one officer is killed by stray rounds from another during a legitimate use of deadly force, it would be felony murder for the suspect, and not “friendly fire.”

      Unless you are a cop basher, then there is never an excuse for upholding the law or defending your own life. /sneers

    2. avatar Jonathan - Houston says:

      I’m sure you’re right. I was just thinking that by “felonious”, though, that they meant more like “criminally”, as opposed to accidentally shot.

      1. avatar jwm says:

        Isn’t it considered a felony to assualt an officer? If during that assualt the officer dies, regardless of cause isn’t that felonious murder?

        I’m not a criminal justice expert or lawyer.

        1. avatar Hannibal says:

          These laws all vary by state, although I doubt any state would not charge a felony with such a result.

        2. avatar the ruester says:

          Suppose you punch a cop in the nose, and as he is smarting he wanders into traffic. Pretty sure that’s a yes.

          Suppose you are flinching at the cop like you WANT to punch him; he quickly fumbles for his gun, NDs self in stomach, bleeds out. Pretty sure even that would qualify.

        3. avatar Jonathan - Houston says:

          By “feloniously killed”, they mean exactly that: killed in the line of duty as the result of a criminal homicide. Specifically:

          “The following information concerns duly sworn city, university and college, county, state, tribal, and federal law enforcement officers who died….as a result of felonious incidents in the line of duty. The law enforcement officers included in this report also met additional criteria (e.g., they had full arrest powers; they ordinarily wore/carried a badge and a firearm). ”

          The killed-with-their-own-weapon data, is exactly that: officers, of those feloniously killed, who were killed with their own weapon. Yes, you may assume that all officers killed with their own weapon, were feloniously killed. In fact, it’s not even an assumption, it’s in the actual original linked report. Not every officer feloniously killed, however, was killed with his own weapon. Some were killed by criminals’ own weapons. Some were killed while in hot pursuit (that counts as a felony, too). Some in other circumstances.

    3. avatar More Dead Soldiers says:

      That is called self-defense.

    4. Yes. The “killed with own gun” is a subset of the “feloniously killed numbers.

  5. avatar Grege says:

    I world be interested to know if the strictness of gun control laws had any affect on the likelihood of having your open carried weapon turned on you.

    1. avatar Cliff H says:

      I’m pretty sure that in most jurisdictions stealing a firearm is illegal. Discharging a firearm in an urban area is also illegal in most places. Threatening anyone with a firearm is illegal, whether or not you just stole it from them or brung your own. Shooting at them is illegal, whether or not you hit them, and actually shooting them is, I’m pretty sure, a felony.

      None of these are specifically gun control laws since they are all focused on the actual crime being committed, not the tool being used. Still, anyone engaged in such criminal activities is hardly likely to be deterred by some legal document somewhere saying that he was also breaking some (unconstitutional) gun-control law.

    2. avatar James in AZ says:

      Yes they do. Murder has long ceased to exist because civilization has made it illegal. Anyone thinking criminals will disobey laws on paper needs to take off that god fearing tinfoil hat.

  6. avatar Former Water Walker says:

    Well they’re sure working overtime in Chicago>po-leece shot and killed 2(3?) today. You’d think they’d be a mite less trigger-happy but nope. I never hear about getting shot by other cops or with their own gun. Take that statistic fwiw…

  7. avatar Jack says:

    I live in Tacoma Washington, the only people I ever see open carry are fat ate-up assholes with little to no situational awareness. Guys who like to carry at Walmart on a Saturday full of people with zero retention maybe a serpa level one at best. If you stand a couple feet behind them while they are looking at at the produce or whatever, you will have a better view of their firearm than they do. I’ve never seen a civilian open carry around here that I didn’t feel I could stand for to toe with, unarmed and still come out on top, let alone if I decided to be sneaky about it, and I’m nobodie’s ninja. If a civilian ever has been disarmed it probably hasn’t made the news anyway. You want to open carry at a camp site, or some ranch land type area in eastern Washington, cool. You and your fat ass wife both open carrying in a busy mall on a weekend, while leaving you kid unattended and out of view, in a shopping cart while you and your spouse argue about what 6 pack you should buy, not cool. Open carry an ar15 down a busy street so you can get views on youtube, please junior, grow up. Get your permit, cover it up and be a step ahead and rather than behind. Not to mention, with all the people on the fence about guns these days and people want to open carry for, lets face it, intimidation factor, that just doesn’t do anybody any good as far as I’m concerned. Just cause its legal, doesn’t make it right or smart.

    1. avatar Jonathan - Houston says:

      Most of your points are more or less valid. However, intimidation of anyone “on the fence” is a myth. For one, firearms freedom has been advancing in one state after another across the country, for decades, and that includes the advent of open carry. If OC were having a backlash effect, then it would show up as a curtailment of firearms freedom generally. Instead, we see the opposite. The antis’ primary successes have been in the immediate aftermath of gruesome spree killings, even then mostly just in severely anti-gun states, and not a slowly building resentment of open carry.

      More importantly, there’s really no such thing as “fence sitters” when it comes to guns. Sitting on the fence implies at least being in the area; in this case, having some conflicted feelings about the issue, but at least actively considering it. Such people may technically, exist, but you could count them on one hand. There are People of the Gun. There are anti-gunners. There are people for whom this entire issue is but one of a million other topics in a vast constellation of public policy issues, who haven’t given it any consideration, and whose votes are not at all influenced by it. These people are not “fence sitters” in the sense that their opinion is genuinely undecided, while they’re still researching and deliberating.

      It’s more like these people are a thousand miles away and don’t give a damn about the topic beyond perhaps making a stray comment when it comes up in conversation. Put another way: the entire issue of firearms freedom in general is as timely, meaningful and influential to them, as are the 9mm vs. .45ACP caliber debates in particular raging on various gun boards at any given time. They don’t know, don’t care. That isn’t necessarily a slam against such people. It’s just the reality that they have busy lives and other interests.

      1. avatar Jack says:

        I think I agree with some of what you say, to a point, I think maybe you are arguing semantics. Not sure how you would accurately quantify some of what you say. I do know, I am still on the fence somewhat, I wish I didn’t feel compelled to carry on a regular basis. I’d still have guns for fun, if peace were a reality, I just don’t like living in a high crime area and worrying about my wife and kid. Last open carry I saw was an obese 60+ year old man, 1911, cocked and locked, zero retention, in a Tire store busy with regular people and kids. If I had been a desperate tweaker (which is his town is lousy with) I could have walked up behind him, jacked his shit and been out the door with it before he could catch his breath. The 80 some year old grandma, (who had on a motorcycle club sweatshirt) that was giving him the stink eye is not likely to support O.C. after that, and neither am I, and I love guns, but everytime I see O.C., it looks like a problem waiting to happen. Almost every advantage you have, other than intimidation factor, is forfeited when carrying like this guy was and my mind spins with all the scenarios that could result in tragedy and lost votes.

        1. avatar Jonathan - Houston says:

          Fair enough. It really comes down to local circumstances, meaning the individual and his or her surroundings. One thing that definitely stands out is that in the self-defense realm, or even the gun subdivision of it, there’s really no one-size-fits-all approach. I’d expect that applies both to equipment and tactics. Figure out what works best for you and run with it. No argument here. Good exchange, Jack. I look forward to another some time.

  8. avatar Rick in NH says:

    In June, 2007 a NH town police officer was killed during a traffic stop. A convicted felon stopped at the scene and intervened, killing the person who shot and ran over the officer. You can read the details at: and

    While this does not fall into the category of officer killed with his own gun, it falls into the category of officer’s gun used by bystander to kill perp who shot the officer.

  9. avatar Ralph says:

    2015 police LOD deaths (to date): 123

    9/11 related illness: 6
    Accidental: 2
    Aircraft accident: 1
    Assault: 3
    Automobile accident: 28
    Bomb: 4
    Duty related illness: 2
    Fall: 1
    Gunfire: 36
    Gunfire (Accidental): 2
    Heart attack: 17
    Motorcycle accident: 4
    Struck by vehicle: 5
    Vehicle pursuit: 5
    Vehicular assault: 7


    Meanwhile, about 1000 people were shot to death by police.

    1. avatar Hannibal says:

      So? What does that have to do with the article and its subject, open carry?

  10. avatar More Dead Soldiers says:

    We really need to see more cases of self-defense. Green line is way too low.

  11. avatar Tim says:

    One general comment about statistics involving officers killed with firearms – the important word here is KILLED. The number has been decreasing largely due to the widespread use of body armor and better (and faster) medical care. The number of officers who are assaulted (with firearms and otherwise) continues to increase – they are simply more likely to survive being shot.

    And there are a LOT of unsuccessful gun grabs.

    1. avatar JR_in_NC says:

      “And there are a LOT of unsuccessful gun grabs.”

      This is an important point, and it would very interesting to see some numbers on that (even if they were low-ball estimates).

      The thing is, if they were unsuccessful gun grabs, is there any reason to believe that they WOULD HAVE BEEN successful had that been on non-LEO’s?

      The gun grab and ‘shoot me first’ are two of the most cited reasons people give for not wanting to OC. The “shoot me first” one is easily shown as an overblown concern.

      The gun grab may well be a legitimate concern, but it is one clearly mitigated by retention holsters, situational awareness and retention oriented hand-to-hand training.

      No risk is zero, but then again, no lock keeps out ALL intruders. Risk mitigation is about tipping the odds in our favor, and it would seem from these stats that the real world risk of death-by-gun-grab (for cops at least) is pretty small.

  12. avatar dug knaus says:

    How about “Officers killed feloniously, versus Officers killed in normal traffic. Add in officiers killed while pursuing young male with poor driving record. Now add in innocent civilians killed during such pursuits.”
    Let’s make a rule—for foot and vehicle pursuits—don’t chase unless you have a damned good reason. A reason is not “They ran from me.” Are you a Jack Russell Terrier or an officer of the law?
    Why would they run? OFWG here: They’re scared of you…and we both think we can outrun you. P.S. I live in N.C. No, they never caught me. To make them more Barney like, I was a decoy with no likker. But a strong motor and far better driving skills.

  13. avatar Stan says:

    I wonder why the gun grabbers aren’t pushing for smart guns in the hands of police. If it only saves one life…

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