New from MG Industries: 9mm MARCK-15 AR “Hydra” for GLOCK Mags

1. I should mention that I just finished up testing of Lone Wolf’s G9 Glock mag lower receiver. Built it on my 9mm AR suppressed pistol upper… little sneak peak here:
   
   

   I’m planning on writing it all up and getting the review on here for next week.

   Jeremy

   • Cool! I’ll be watching for it.

     Hey, someone needs to test a Mech-Tech conversion for Glocks, too. Put it up against these regular carbines.

     • Agreed. I’m extremely curious to see a proper review of their conversion kit.

     • +1

       I’ve thought about getting a MechTech conversion kit for a while but the lack of proper reviews has been a sticking point for me.

     • A friend of mine ran one a few years ago in 10mm and loved it. Got some really amazing velocity out of it. Tell ya what, I have a G20SF and enough 10mm to have fun with a Mech-Tech… I’ll hit them up and see if they’d be willing to loan a large frame GLOCK conversion to me for a few. I’m definitely curious to run some decent 10mm loads over a chrony.

   • Doesn’t a dedicated 9mm lower defeat the purpose of the AR’s modularity?

     • ^^^^
       This

     • You still benefit from the modularity in that you can choose from all of the buttstocks, grips, triggers, uppers, rails, optics, forends, etc etc etc that are all normal AR-15 components.

       The only modularity you’re defeating is that you’re now locked into pistol calibers with the lower… and it isn’t even “9mm” in these cases it’s small frame Glock calibers (any caliber a small frame Glock mag works with… so not 10mm, .45 ACP [or .380]). Just like a .223/5.56 lower, you can swap to different calibers by swapping the upper out. You could shoot .40 or .357 Sig in addition to 9mm if you wanted to.

       The main point is that it lets you use Glock mags. The 9mm AR I built on a standard .223/5.56 lower worked fine, but the mag well block insert adapter thing is a possible point of failure and I don’t really like the Colt/Uzi-style stick mags. If you like shooting 9mm out of a carbine, which I most definitely do, then you’ll probably like a dedicated lower that’s designed for it. You’ll probably especially like that if you carry a G19 or G17 and can now use the exact same magazines in your carbine.

       • Just saw ZQI 124 grain NATO 9x19mm for $13/50 rounds at WalMart today. Might be a good round to run through this carbine.

     • Actually that is MG’s big selling points for the “Hydra” the magazine well is separate from the rest of the lower. When you buy any of their caliber conversion kits, they include the appropriate magwell.

       • Oh yah, great point. The Hydra is its own unique beast(s) that locks you into nothing & has modularity out the ears.

       • That is pretty cool.

   • I am seriously at the point of just buying an Auto Ordinance M1 carbine and being done with my lusting. It satisfies all three of my requirements:

     1. carbine
     2. gun thingy
     3. has the word “carbine” in its title

2. $1,299 for a pistol with a long barrel and a stock.

   Maybe someone can tell me what these things are good for, other than being just another toy to plink with that fires relatively cheap ammo. ‘Cuz it looks like a pistol that you can’t carry on your belt, or it’s a rifle that doesn’t fire rifle rounds. The worst of both worlds.

   If I’m gonna buy a rifle, it’s damn well gonna take rifle cartridges.

   • There IS a niche for this type of firearm, but it’s definitely not for everyone.

     Some folks like to have their handgun and rifle take the same ammo (re: lever-actions and SA revolvers, .22 rifles/pistols, etc.). Yes, it limits the rifle’s uses, but it simplifies logistics. Magazine compatibility is handy, too.

     You can shoot pistol-caliber rifles/carbines on many indoor pistol ranges that will NOT allow bottlenecked rifle cartridges, due to either backstop limitations or noise constraints. I have a range like this where I live.

     Sometimes you don’t want or need the extra power a rifle-caliber rifle brings, you just want better shot placement at longer distances.

     9mm rifles/carbines do increase the power of the 9mm cartridge over what you get from a pistol, without an increase in recoil or noise.

     Finally, ‘Murica. What I want/need doesn’t have to mesh with anyone else.

     • Word.

       9mm ammo is also pretty cheap.

       • Walmart is carrying ZQI NATO for $13/50 rounds.

     • All of this, PLUS, you can shoot on steel at CQB distances without punching holes in the steel. Such firearms are indeed a necessity when training under such circumstances using a firearm with the same basic manual-of-arms as your big-boy gun. Google Bill Rogers Shooting School Carbine Class.

     • I really think it makes the most sense in Sig SB-15-braced pistol configuration with a pistol-length barrel under the forend. Of course, I’m probably biased since I built exactly that haha. Add a suppressor to the barrel and now you have an amazing home defense weapon as well as a gun that’s just a ton of fun to shoot. I think it’s one of the very best possible HD firearm choices because it won’t do hearing damage even in enclosed spaces but it gives you the accuracy, stability, and ease-of-use of a rifle — a very short rifle that’s handy in small spaces. Plus you can mount things to the forend rails should you want lights and lasers and tasers and whatever else on there. Shooting a handgun is nowhere near as easy as shooting a carbine. The ability to brace it on your shoulder is huge. I’m handy with a handgun… place pretty well in IPSC shoots and such… but I can’t shoot a pistol any-freaking-where near as quickly and accurately as I can shoot a 9mm carbine configured as mentioned above. Check the link in my first post at the top of this discussion thread. That string of rapid shots at the end of the video is from like 20 yards on an FBI Q silhouette target. 3.5″ barrel on my upper. No freaking way in hell could I put rounds on target from a pistol like that! I may modify my upper to a 5″ barrel for tighter groups but the decision is still in the pondering phase. At any rate, a pistol length barrel keeps the ammo subsonic, which keeps things quiet. And I’ll gladly take 33 rounds of 147 grain Federal HST for home defense work.

       Of course, I do understand those that feel pistol calibers are not sufficient for defensive work and therefore would say that a 5.56 carbine with suppressor would be a fine HD firearm, especially in the Sig brace short barrel configuration or legit SBR. However… it will not be hearing safe even with a suppressor on it. Of course, still greatly preferential to firing an unsuppressed rifle inside a house or something, which would absolutely suck.

       If you don’t care about subsonic, you could also build a .40 S&W or .357 Sig upper. (These Glock lowers accept any small frame Glock mag. So no 10mm or .45 with the same magwell design.) However, subsonic is a big part of what makes it quiet.

       • Great explanation Jeremy.

       • I like where you are going. What is the over all length on a thing like that?

       • Kind of hard to answer an overall length question, as it’s custom and the options are limitless. The buffer tube I have on the LW G9 lower spaces the Sig brace back from the receiver by a couple of inches (adding length of pull and overall length as well) plus my Liberty Mystic is one of the longer 9mm cans on the market. So this build could easily be like 4 inches shorter with the same barrel length (and I definitely don’t think I would consider a barrel shorter than the 3.5″ one I’m using). As-is, it’s 28″ in total length. Almost 2 inches longer than my Tavor. However, if I did the $900 9mm conversion for the Tavor and put my suppressor on the end of it I’d then be nearly a foot longer than this AR pistol. So apples-to-apples is kind of tough here, and this thing could easily be 24″ OAL with a smaller can and shorter length of pull.

         If Sig gets through the lawsuit stuff with their MPX, I could totally see the integrally suppressed version taking over in this role in my gun safe though.

     • Also, some people claim to be too recoil sensitive for an AR or a 9mm handgun. This would be for them. Or a quirky sub 2000 and $800 worth of quirky ammo.

3. That price is a major deal breaker.

   I would love to have a pistol caliber carbine that is worth a damn, but not priced like it is made out of solid diamonds. Most of the carbines I’ve seen are going for full-rifle caliber prices. Kel-tecs seem to be priced right if you can find one at retail.

4. Why do I get a “world’s more fire retardant paper hat” feel from this thing? For the money you can get a top shelf AR platform.

5. Or you could have three quirky SUB-2000’s for the same money.
   Or one SUB-2000 and >800 quirky dollars in your wallet.

   • FYI, I own a quirky SUB-2000. And it is quirky.

     • I do too, and yes, it is quirky. Lots of fun in its quirkiness, though.

6. Hi-Point carbine in 9mm $250. Quite accurate, especially for the money and don’t let the OMG! It’s a hi -point ridicule bother you.

   • I actually like the HiPoint carbines, but have resisted buying one because it only has 10 rd mags. I would have bought one by now if it had 20 or 30 round capacity.

     I wouldn’t mind a carbine design that lets me use my M&P mags, but I’m okay with one that takes Glock mags. Don’t want quirky though. A win would be something like the HiPoint with Glock mags – a non-quirky, simple carbine with the ability to take 20 to 30 round mags. And less than $500 (the more less, the more better, I think the Sub2k is like $400?).

     • I think there will always be people willing to pay extra to shoot something on the AR platform so they can enjoy the same, familiar battery of arms plus the modularity associated with it. Grips, triggers, stocks, forends, charging handles, and the vast majority of other lower & upper parts are the same as on your normal AR-15. This opens up a ridiculous number of options to customize and make it look and feel like your rifle. The Hi-Point is totally functional but it isn’t exactly a looker and doesn’t offer much ability to tweak at all, and these things are important to many people. The ability to take Glock mags is another bonus for anyone who carries a G19 or G17 (or 26) or otherwise already owns a bunch of Gmags.

       • This makes sense to me. If I were choosing JUST ONE platform for mid-range HD and hunting it might be an AR.

         But as Jeremy points out, its too loud, to long indoors, and cant be made better in the slave states.
         So I am gradually coming around to the idea of the carbine as short range/indoor HD weapon, as a primary with pistol backup, or maybe as your partners primary, if you were working as a team- one pistol, one carbine.

         And in that case it might make the carbine a good starter gun, like the old .22 was the starter rifle, if you are mostly plinking, and not hunting, until you get the hang of it. And given the cost of time to learn, keeping the ammo logistics simple helps too.

         Especially since its gotten so hard to find decent .22LR, at anywhere like “before scare” prices, you might as well plink with a 9mm carbine, and if you reload, I would guess you start to be at roughly same cost over time, without the hassle of hanging out around Walmart at 5AM.

         Anyone have a rule of thumb for newbie reloader, in 9mm, as to break even?
         Is it realistic to say that at some point you start making money, if you are cheaper than new .22LR,
         rolling your own in 9mm?

       • 9mm reloads are sold at too low of a price to come out ahead loading your own unless you’re shooting a lot and you value your time at $0 or really, really enjoy reloading. There are calibers where you can save substantial money loading yourself, but I don’t think 9mm is one of them. Especially if you’re willing to purchase reloads (and why wouldn’t you be if you’re considering reloading yourself as an alternative to buying new). Even today, where 9mm prices haven’t come down to the pre-“panic” pricing level entirely, you can get quality reloads from companies like Freedom Munitions for about 19 cents a pop. If you price out reloading your own, even assuming you’re buying things in really big bulk quantities and you attribute $0 to brass cost and disregard the cost of the loading equipment, you’d probably be coming in around 14 cents per round for the cheapest bullets, primers, and powder you can find. You will be spending some money on brass, though, plus the reloading equipment. If you’re lucky, after brass costs, you might save a penny or two per round but that’s $10 to $20 saved per thousand and you’re shooting a heck of a lot before making up $500+ on loading equipment and dozens of hours at the loading bench.

         …additionally, after you shoot the reloads that you purchased for $0.19 each, you can sell the brass. That usually goes for like $2.50 to $3.50 per pound. You can recover a fair bit of $$$ and bring the effective price down even lower…

       • Thanks, Jeremy for bottom lining that- so if you shoot decent reloads in 9mm, you are pretty close to current prices for decent new .22LR. And without the scarcity problem.
         Is that about right?

       • There are a lot of other reasons to reload outside of cost per round. In fact unless you are doing a lot of reloading saving money is definitely not a reason for reloading any common pistol caliber. A reload matched to a particular firearm is reason alone to reload, even in 9mm and even for plinking. A much wider choice of projectiles is quite nice as well.

         You can buy brass if you want but most people I know that reload only do that for non-plinking rounds and sometimes not even then. Brass is saved from factory rounds or quality reloads. I have often been given once fired quality factory brass for free while at the range after a friendly chat with a new or infrequent shooter. I have never had to purchase brass by itself for any common pistol round and I am at somewhere around 250K plus reloads not counting rifles.

     • Indeed the Hi Point Carbines are great reliable guns that are IMO every bit as good as the Sub’s (I have both) but the mag capacity is a deal-killer for any tactical use IMO…Obviously they lack the Glock-compatibility of the Sub as well…But they are incredibly durable as one can imagine for extremely affordable prices which like everything else in life is rare.

     • Agreed… If hi points took glock mags.. (Bill Paxton) Game over man, GAME OVER.. (/Bill Paxton)

     • For M&P mag compatibility, see the Thureon Defense pistol caliber carbine lineup. (They also offer Glock, XD, and other options for mags.)

7. I wish I’d kept my $350 sub2000. Sold it 3months before Newtown. Sigh. Why is this better? JR carbine? Beretta? Taurus? Man $1300 is a lot…

   • Crap! I had a hard time finding one about then. You would have been thrilled to sell it for what I paid for it. . .

     • And I wish I had sold it to you! Do I have it right you live near Chicago Avid Reader?

       • Denver area, but travel to Chicago frequently. Lived there for a few years.

   • I have a JRC in 9mm glock. I have a Ruger PC9 coming to my FFL.

     The JRC is fine, the field strip is a bit involved, but not too bad. Had to replace firing pin after only 800 rds, but cost was like $5, so no biggie. I got mine for slightly north of $600.

     I bought the Ruger as it is more practicle in my opinion, and built like a tank given it’s police heritage. Field stip is simple. I got mine for slightly north of $600 here too.

     Why 9mm carbine? As others have stated:
     1. So I could shoot steel at 75 and 150 yds without dimples and short target life, even with AR500.
     2. I shoot FM 9mm reloads. Read: cheaper than 5.56 ammo by .10 cents per round or more.
     3. Cuz I want to.

8. $1K for a 9mm carbine…? Uh, no thx. I will keep my Sub-2000 which mates up just fine with my Glocks for WAY less mula. If money were no factor I’m in as I rarely see a gun I can’t make use of…

9. I got a Keltec S2K and an obsessive hankering for more 9mm carbines.

   I’m keeping my credit card poised for an Atlantic Firearms spec’d AK 9mm with support for Siig brace, pistol lengths, optic mount, and suppressor ready. Supposedly Atlantic has two different vendor prototypes in hand. Unfortunately no pics yet.

   http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186025

10. Funny to read comments about people saying it’s too expensive for a 9mm carbine, when in fact it’s an AR modular platform that could be in 9mm, as well as .223, 7.62×39, .300BLK, .45ACP, .40S&W, .22LR and more… from the same single serial number lower (which could be a huge deal in some part of the world with stupid gun laws).

    Being able to swap a caliber in less than a minute and being able to use the same magazine than your side arm, it’s a huge advantage in my book. No need to transport dozen of guns with a dozen of optics and being able to use any kind of ammo. Even in a SHTF situation, that’s a great modularity. Being an AR mil-spec platform, you can use whatever accessories you want, including your favorite 6.8 SPC, Five-SeveN or .50 Beowolf uppers.

    I don’t know other gun that propose this level of flexibility and modularity. Now if they could even have mag-well for Sig P226/P320 magazines, for 1911 magazines, for M9 magazines, maybe even FNP/FNX-45 magazines, that would be even greater (just to name few).

    So yeah, it might be considered as a “niche market” for some, but not for all of us. Modularity is the key. We can see it from different manufacturers such Sig, Desert Tech, Beretta/Sako, Nemesis Arms, …

    • Well, there IS a downside to the “one lower, bunch of uppers/accessories in different calibers” system; if something breaks on the lower, you’ve lost ALL of your long-gun options in one move. Until you get the lower fixed, you just have a wonderful assortment of tactical paperweights.

      • First of all… how often your lower did fail so far?

        Anyhow, how different it is from having an AR-15 rifle with a lower failure? It’s no different, you still have to wait for a replacement part. However, now let’s take a situation you have an AR-15 and an AK-47. So you do have two rifles, right? So, how would it be different from having two Hydra (one with .223 parts and one with 7.62×39 parts)? Just as the same…

        So now, you have your AR-15 lower failure… there’s no chance you can take any AK-47 parts to fix it. With Hydras, you can change parts and keep using the rifle of your choice with the caliber of your choice, depending which ammo you have. In a SHTF situation, you have an AR-15 lower failure and only .223 rounds, you won’t do much by having your AK-47 with you. With two Hydras, you won’t have this problem… and you can even increase your chances by having multiple caliber kits with other caliber such .22LR, 9mm, .45ACP, .40S&W, etc… (which are pretty common). Last time I check, none of them would work on an AK-47.

        So yeah, if you only have one lower, it will just be as bad as having just one AR-15 rifle… This is not a specific downside to the MGI Hydra.

        • I have broken a hammer spring in one of my AR lowers. Except for the extractor spring, all the critical-to-functioning springs in an AR-style firearm are in the lower. I’ve seen other users break lower receiver extension tube springs (the main action spring), along with hammer springs.

          When I broke the hammer spring in my AR, it troubled me not a bit, as I had another lower I could snap in place and continue my shooting. That was my point; if you have a bunch of accessories and one lower, any breakage in the lower puts all the associated uppers off-line until the lower is repaired/replaced. Much better to have at least one “spare” lower, already assembled and ready to use. Also gives you the option to use a different stock, make one gun lighter for carrying and the other heavier for range/bench shooting, use different triggers for different intended uses, etc.

          “Anyhow, how different it is from having an AR-15 rifle with a lower failure?”

          This company is selling the modular approach with a renewed emphasis that you don’t NEED any more lowers, because you can even change their lower’s magwell for longer/shorter calibers. I’m saying that this might be taking the modular thing too far, for reasons that they are not discussing (potential spring breakage). If you are comfortable with only one receiver containing one fire-control group, that’s cool. I’d prefer to have a little more peace of mind through redundancy. Many multiple AR owners that I know did start out with one lower and several uppers, but in relatively short order, they bought more lowers and built their spare uppers into complete rifles/carbines. They saw enough advantages to doing so that they spent money that could have been used somewhere else to add more lowers to their weapon mix; but if this company acknowledges that attitude, they lose one of their main selling points.

      • I think you’re not getting my point… Having any kind of failure on an MGI lower will be no different from having any kind of failure on any other AR lower.

        If you’re not comfortable to own only one AR, then you won’t be comfortable to own only one Hydra. If you want to have several/backup/spare parts, then you can buy extra parts… Actually MGI offers a very large flexibility when it comes down to buy parts, conversion kits or even complete setup.

        The point if to have a modular AR that can virtually be converted in pretty much any common calibers and still being mil-spec. I’d rather have a backpack with a Hydra rifle with several calibers and spare parts than having to transport several AK, SKS, AR, etc… And then you have your AR and AK in your backpack, and the only ammo you have is 9mm (or .45ACP)… so your rifles will be useless. With the Hydra, you can still easily and quickly convert it and still use it… Or you can just choose to use another caliber just for plinking wit cheap ammo.

        That’s the whole point. Not to replace all your guns by only one Hydra.

        Also, instead to have 10 AR-15 with 10 mediocre Scopes/Red-Dots, I’d rather of 2 Hydra with 2 very good Scopes/Red-Dots. And for the price differences, I could still have plenty of money to buy spare parts. Again, if I have to bug out… I’d definitely have more chances to move quickly by transporting 2 rifles than transporting 10 rifles. I could live with a light CQB/CMR rifle and a heavier longer range rifle (and a set of spare parts that could actually work on both, it increases considerably the usefulness of this kind of setup).

        Nonetheless, a lot of people are forgetting there’s states/countries with stupid gun laws that could limit you to own no more than x rifles and y pistols. In that case, having technically only “one” serial number would mean you will only have one registered firearms… even thought you can adapt it to the caliber of your choice, even after the purchase. Of course, this is not pertinent in any of the free states (yet?), but it’s still a very pertinent features for the rest of the world.

        The exact same reasons why I love the new Sig P320 and the 9mm caliber and .40S&W, .357Sig and now .45ACP conversion kits. Does it mean I won’t have any other .45ACP pistol… no! I already have one (1911) and might probably add another one (FN). But having a .45ACP conversion kit for the P320 is definitely something I want in my arsenal to have more flexibility and more versatility (Mainly when we know how crazy things could become quickly with ammo shortage during crisis, when SHTF/WROL situations, or even after any “ban” announcement).

        If tomorrow, any dictator administration decide to ban the .223 cartridge for civilians (don’t laugh, it already happened to some countries around the world), then I could easily swap a barrel, change the bolt and mag-well and use it with another non-banned caliber.

        But again, to each his own… I’m not trying to convince anyone and I already made my mind about it (thought about it for a long time already, I was hoping and looking for this kind of setup). That’s also why I’m loving the Desert Tech SRS-A1 and I’m waiting on the MDR…

    • CZ 75 mags would be nice, too.

      • Yep CZ too… obviously I haven’t listed all interesting magazines, but the whole concept would be to covert all main magazines in use (including S&W M&P, HK VP9, etc…)

11. Simply underwhelming. That is a lot of money for a pistol cartridge based carbine. Expensive modularity at $1,300.

12. I’d prefer cheap sten or uzi mags over glock.

    • They are cheaper but they aren’t as reliable and they weigh more. Seems like you have to buy 5 colt / uzi mags to get 2 that really work reliably. I’ve had better luck with knock-off Korean military Glock-compatible magazines than factory or C-Products 9mm stick mags in colt or uzi flavor.

13. Olympic also makes a 9mm & 40 S&W AR that uses Glock mags. I was very intersted in the Hydra for three reasons. 1. I wanted an AR in 45ACP that uses Glocks mags. 2. I wanted an AR in 7.62X39 that uses AK 47 mags. (Hydra offers magizene well for both)
    But, MOST importantaly it is a take down gun that will fit an AR into a brieff case!!!!! I have decided, for now, not to buy one due to reports of poor quality. Instead of a 45ACP I plan to get a 300 Blackout, and I plan to get a SIGxi Russian.

    • Just as an FYI the lower wouldn’t work with .45 ACP Glock mags. The 9mm, .40, and .357 Sig (and .45 GAP) are small-frame Glocks and the .45 ACP and 10mm are large frame. The mags for the large frame guns are bigger, and they won’t fit in the magazine well of something designed for the small frame mags.

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