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By Corey Williams and Ed White, AP

A prosecutor in Michigan filed involuntary manslaughter charges Friday against the parents of a boy who is accused of killing four students at Oxford High School, after saying earlier that their actions went “far beyond negligence.”

Jennifer and James Crumbley were charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter. Under Michigan law, an involuntary manslaughter charge can be pursued if prosecutors believe someone contributed to a situation where harm or death was high. If convicted, they could face up to 15 years in prison.

“The parents were the only individuals in the position to know the access to weapons,” Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald said Thursday. The gun “seems to have been just freely available to that individual.”

Ethan Crumbley, 15, has been charged as an adult with two dozen crimes, including murder, attempted murder and terrorism, for the shooting Tuesday at Oxford High School in Oakland County, roughly 30 miles (50 kilometers) north of Detroit.

Four students were killed and seven more people were injured. Three were in hospitals in stable condition.

The semi-automatic gun was purchased legally by Crumbley’s father last week, according to investigators.

Parents in the U.S. are rarely charged in school shootings involving their children, even as most minors get guns from a parent or relative’s house, according to experts.

Ethan Crumbley
Ethan Crumbley (courtesy Oakland County Sheriff’s Office)

There’s no Michigan law that requires gun owners keep weapons locked away from children. McDonald, however, suggested there’s more to build a case on.

“All I can say at this point is those actions on mom and dad’s behalf go far beyond negligence,” she told WJR-AM. “We obviously are prosecuting the shooter to the fullest extent. … There are other individuals who should be held accountable.”

Later at a news conference, McDonald said she hoped to have an announcement “in the next 24 hours.” She had firmly signaled that Crumbley’s parents were under scrutiny when she filed charges against their son Wednesday.

Sheriff Mike Bouchard disclosed Wednesday that the parents met with school officials about their son’s classroom behavior, just a few hours before the shooting.

McDonald said information about what had troubled the school “will most likely come to light soon.”

Crumbley stayed in school Tuesday and later emerged from a bathroom with a gun, firing at students in the hallway, police said.

The superintendent for the district late Thursday posted a YouTube video where he said the teenager was called to the office before the shooting but “no discipline was warranted.”

Tim Throne, leader of Oxford Community Schools, said the high school looks like a “war zone” and won’t be ready for weeks. But he repeatedly credited students and staff for how they responded to the violence.

“To say that I am still in shock and numb is probably an understatement. These events that have occurred will not define us,” Throne, grim-faced and speaking slowly, said in the 12-minute video.

“I want you to know that there’s been a lot of talk about the student who was apprehended, that he was called up to the office and all that kind of stuff. No discipline was warranted,” Throne said. “There are no discipline records at the high school. Yes this student did have contact with our front office, and, yes, his parents were on campus Nov. 30.”

Throne said he couldn’t immediately release additional details.

UPDATE: Local law enforcement has issued a statewide ‘be on the lookout’ notice for Jennifer and James Crumbley. They were reportedly scheduled to turn themselves in after being charged this morning, but failed to appear.

According to Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard, on Thursday night, they were in the early stages of the investigation and there was no certainty that they would face charges so the Crumbleys were not under surveillance. Bouchard said when it looked like charges would be issued, investigators began the surveillance process.

The Crumbleys were supposed to turn themselves in with their attorney on Friday but they stopped communicating and cooperating with their attorney and are now on the run.

The FBI and US Marshals are assisting with the search. 

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      • Sorry but this is a crime. Gun owners, and I am one as well as a lawyer and an NRA instructor, MUST keep firearms safe from unauthorized use. Both the NSSF and NRA, as well as other organizations, have programs specifically focused on keeping guns from kids’ hands. This is one of the immutable responsibilities of gun ownership.

        • No, the issue here is that it appears the parents bought the gun for their kid and e em said so on social media.

        • An ethical responsibility is not the same as a codified crime. It appears that the gun was purchased and stored legally pursuant to the laws of Michigan.

          We don’t yet know the details of what the parents knew before their son committed his own crimes. It may be a while before those are made known. However, the D.A. is admittedly attempting to “build a case” against the parents by construction. While I firmly agree with the general sentiment that parents are responsible for their (minor) children’s actions, it’s a slippery slope to file charges in the hopes that something will stick, simply because the D.A. thinks they “should be held accountable”. The parents are subject to a particular codified crime in the Michigan Penal Code, or they are not.

          Speaking strictly from a litigative standpoint.

        • Greg, I agree. We must keep this kind of juvenile away from automobiles, also. As well as knives, axes, chainsaws, ice picks, hammers, cast iron frying pans, gasoline (when coupled with matches). I’ve worked homicides by all of the above. And then some. And there is all those deadly weapons easily accessible to most anyone who is willing to commit a felony to access them. Greg, a word of advice; be quite.

        • One last thing Greg. I wouldn’t brag about being a lawyer. I worked along side you guys for years. Most did not impress and none intimidated.

        • well we all better weld our guns up in a 5ft thick steel box and weld the lid on too. Of course pour an additional 5 ft of concrete on all sides too. The bury it 500 ft deep. Dude there’s no way to stop someone from killing others if they are dedicated to doing so.
          Used to be it was illegal to steal a gun, Now you’ve commited a felonious crime if somehow, someway, someone steals your gun from you. What bullshit.

        • see if you feel that way when someone robs your safe, steals your gun/s and kills people with your guns. You may want to reconsider your view then….

        • to Greg

          Glad to see we have a few posters that are not prime candidates for the looney bin like Flag Waver.

          This is a prime reason why the Federal Government needs a Federal Safe Storage Law and until that happens all the States should have the same. The Michigan case is a classic example of a vagueness of responsibility when irresponsible parents leave deadly weapons out so children can commit mass murder with them. Its getting to be a weekly thing. This is why civilized countries have had such laws for decades. Its no mystery that the latest stats prove that 90 percent of all child deaths from guns in the industrialized world all happen in Capitalvania were life is considered cheap and expendable.

        • IF what the prosecutor stated at the press conference is true, the parents do appear to be criminally negligent / culpable. Evidently, a total disregard of very clear signs of trouble.

        • Greg and little d – teammates.

          Greg – it’s properly stated as “damn lawyer” and is NOT a recommendation or credential

        • Also looks like the school had a total disregard of clear signs of trouble. 2 conferences with the parents that week, 1 that day, and apparently there were clear known threats made. School should have said “Take him to a hospital and don’t bring him in here unless/until a head shrinker signs off on it.” But instead they said “Nah, go on back t class.”

        • Country Boy and Gadsden Flag…to your points……the late Col Jeff Cooper, handgun expert and founder of Gunsite Academy, summed the situation succinctly in 1958…..
          “Killing is a matter of will, not weapons.
          You cannot control the act itself
          by passing laws about the means employed.”
          A politician with a law never stops a bad guy with a gun.
          He only controls the good guys….which is his true agenda. Making good people helpless does not make bad people…..or politicians……harmless.
          Were a law the end all solution, why wasn’t “Thou shalt not kill” enough???

        • This is a prime reason why the Federal Government needs a Federal Dacian Storage Law and until that happens all the States should have the same. The Michigan case is a classic example of a vagueness of responsibility when irresponsible parents leave Dacians out so children can commit mass murder with them. Its getting to be a weekly thing. This is why civilized countries have had such laws for decades. Its no mystery that the latest stats prove that 90 percent of all child deaths from guns in the industrialized world all happen in Dacianvania were life is considered cheap and expendable.

          And please, don’t forget to neuter your Dacian

      • We have a little more information, some regarding the mother’s texts to the boy:

        “McDonald said that on Nov. 21, a teacher at Oxford High observed Ethan searching for ammunition on his cell phone during class, and reported it to school officials. Administrators left a voicemail for Jennifer Crumbley and followed up with an email, but received no response. Jennifer then texted Ethan, saying, “lol I’m not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught,” McDonald said.”

        • As someone who went to middle and high school with a bunch of Guns & Ammo and Shotgun News magazines, and martial arts magazines in my book bag back in the 80’s I don’t find searching for ammunition to be alarming. The actual threats to shoot up the school are much more concerning.

      • Under MI law, it is a crime, if the parents allow access with wanton disregard and knowing of the possible criminal use of the firearm.
        There is precedent (see People of State of Michigan v. Christopher Duran Head – “per curiam” decision 352966 – Wayne Circuit Court, MI)

      • If your dog bites me, you are responsible. If your kid shoots me…..well same concept. I have a son that is 9 and it is my job to either 1) train him to be a decent human being or 2) keep my guns locked up in a manner that he can’t get to them. Option 1 seems like the best option, but a little of option 2 is not bad either. These parents didn’t do either one and they are responsible for his actions until he becomes an adult (if not legally, then morally).

        They put that piece of shit into this world, they are responsible for how it behaves.

    • Nothing whatsoever is funny about this tragedy or does charges against the parents make America a banana republic.

      Your minor kid breaks a window the parents can be hauled into court and held accountable. “If” the parent’s negligence contributed to their son murdering others then the parents can be charged. If the kid broke open a safe and stole the weapon that’s another story.

      Just like alec baldwin’s failure to weigh the what ifs before pointing a firearm at another person the parents of a 15 year old problem child failed to weigh the what ifs. Almost as bad are the parents who failed to weigh the what ifs before leaving their kids beneath a Gun Free Zone Sign.

      • Madam, you are very much on point, here.

        What started out with the strong impression that this was merely another example of the proverbial ‘troubled youth’ stealing an unknowing parent’s firearm and murdering with it has evolved into a situation where the parents of said troubled youth ignored the warning signs, the ‘social media’, the search for ammunition, the awful drawing, and made no move to remove their son from the school, nor to search his backpack, nor to make any attempt to limit his access to a firearm. Every critical step to err on the side of caution and responsibility was intentionally ignored.

        Everything is now completely different than what we initially believed, and the culpability of the parents is now obvious.

        • “Everything is now completely different than what we initially believed, and the culpability of the parents is now obvious.”

          Yeah, the “lol I’m not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught,” text pretty much hangs them.

          Anyone know if there are any other kids in that family who are about to become parent-less?

      • “Those who run are guilty. Those who stand still are well-disciplined guilty.”

        Their only saving grace is that the FBI is now involved. That will give them a couple of weeks to go camping and have a good time before their rotting corpses turn up in a swamp somewhere.

        That may seem a little harsh, but I’m not harboring a lot of happy feelings for these folks right about now.

  1. This is the way it should be.

    Safe storage laws are not required for parents to take responsibility for their children. Just as parents demand responsibility for their schooling at board meetings. This is the good and the bad for having and raising children.

    • If the boy had taken a set of car keys from the house and stole the car to run down a group of students, would the parents be responsible for manslaughter for leaving the keys accessible?

      Or is this just extra-bad because of guns?

      To be fair, if that was my kid, I would have locked up my firearms.

      • I would have too.

        At 15, he is still his parents responsibility. It’s not like he’s a ward of the state, an illegal alien without parents, or some other such thing.

      • “If the boy had taken a set of car keys from the house and used the car to run down a group of students, would the parents be responsible for manslaughter for leaving the keys accessible?”

        well, yes, yes they would in some states especially if, basically, the parent(s) knew of the child’s propensity to so act and failed to do anything about it. But, each state imposes legal responsibility on parents and legal guardians for the delinquent and criminal acts of minors in their charge. Parental responsibility statutes have been in effect in the U.S. for at least 100 years.

      • If there was any indication that having access to to the car keys could present a problem, yes. The parents would be responsible for manslaughter. In this case it appears that access to firearms would be problematic. And it was.

        • Spot on.

          If my son or daughter was a drug-addicted alcoholic, I would not purchase them a car and leave the keys hanging next to the garage door.

      • Logic says yes. If your kid is bad, take any and all actions to prevent harm to the public. Yes, car keys, guns, knifes, etc. If he steals the car or breaks the safe, then the parents are absolved

      • It would be if the danger is reasonably foreseen and no action is taken.. If they left keys where the child could easily get them (openly hanging on a hook or in a bowl by the front door with an unsupervised child), then yes. They would also be liable if he just had a fender bender during a joy ride. They could be liable if he got ahold of their prescription drugs and OD’d or poisoned someone. Guns are known to be able to cause injury, so some proactive action is needed. A kid disassembling his bed and beating someone with a post is not reasonably expected by the average person, and it would be hard to charge negligence.

      • This is not a case of “taking something without the parents’ knowledge and consent”. While it’s not easy to prove a case for unintentional manslaughter against the parents, the case doesn’t just hinge on the fact that parents should monitor their children: it requires wanton disregard for the actions’ consequences. In this case, the minor’s actions can make the parents criminally responsible for the results. There are precedents for both the charges and the confirmed culpability, in Michigan.

  2. Charged with terrorism? What’s that all about? A new type of criminal charge that sends the message, “And we really mean it?

    Why not just invent the charge of someone being evil, wicked, mean bad, and nasty, and apply it to every criminal or civil case?

    • “terrorism” does not mean a guy with a turban running around in the middle east.

      Under Michigan, “terrorism” is defined as a “willful and deliberate act that is all of the following:

      An act that would be a violent felony under the laws of this state, whether or not committed in this state.

      An act that the person knows or has reason to know is dangerous to human life.

      An act that is intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population or influence or affect the conduct of government or a unit of government through intimidation or coercion.”

      The third might be difficult to substantiate unless his act was “… intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population or influence or affect the conduct of government or a unit of government through intimidation or coercion.” …. but elements of his actions could be considered “coercion”

    • 1) Parents bought the pistol for him as a christmas present 4 days prior – mother and son admitted it on social media.

      2) The school told them during the Monday meeting to get the boy counseling within the next 48 hours.

      3) They were again called to the school on Tuesday for a separate incident reported by a separate teacher.

      It can’t fathom how the parents did not know based on the proxity of the 3 events – instead they advised the kid to do a better job of “not getting caught”.

  3. “Sheriff Mike Bouchard disclosed Wednesday that the parents met with school officials about their son’s classroom behavior, just a few hours before the shooting.”

    H’mm, interesting.

    Perhaps the school didn’t like the parents ‘attitude’?

    They went after the mother as well, so there’s more to come to light, here…

  4. The reactions by prosecutors and police mentioned here seem to imply a straw purchase for the child by the parents during a time in his life when they were aware of serious behavioral or mental health issues, and if that is the case, I am perfectly okay with seeing them charged as accessories here.

    If that wasn’t the case and the kid just stole his dad’s gun, I fully expect the parents to be acquitted.

    • They could have given him the gun legally as a gift, although state laws about possession by a minor may say otherwise. Giving him unfettered access is another matter. I gave my son a Cricket rifle when he was 5, but it remains under my control, locked away with the rest of the guns. He gets to see and touch it under supervision when he wants, and he fires it at the range. He can take it with him when he grows up and moves out.

    • A straw purchase ex se isn’t a requirement, for the charges to carry through. The State of Michigan has at least a case where a 10 year old killed another kid and the appellate court upheld the unintentional manslaughter conviction against the father. No straw purchase was ever mentioned.
      The charge can (though it’s a hard one to prove) be anchored to a behavior of gross negligence and wanton disregard.

  5. The parents didn’t give the kid the gun and tell him to shoot it, so they are not directly responsible. But they raised the freak POS, probably never put a boot in his ass, and that was a mistake and a failure, but not criminal. The one who picks up the gun and pulls the trigger is the only one responsible, well unless your name is Alec Baldwin, then the gun shot that woman, he had nothing to do with it. The lesson here is don’t be afraid to discipline your child, less you allow him to become a monster like this POS. Since the killer was under the control of the school administration and the school board, they should be the ones charged.

    • “The lesson here is don’t be afraid to discipline your child, less you allow him to become a monster like this POS.”

      So, a “My *precious* child would NEVER… (blah, blah, blah…)” situation, perhaps?

      • I disciplined my son as he grew up. He learned the rules and the limits. Now he has trust and responsibility because he has earned those privileges. It is good to know I can count on him when I need to as he knows there is a reason when I tell him to do something.

    • oh but we NEED incidents like that nasty ol’ gun in Baldwins hands just decided to kill that woman, likely because she had some dirt that would put some “important” people in a VERY bad light…..

      you know, all the noise about guns are evil in and of themselves”.

      In this cse, it was the Dad who bought an “evil” gun. Picked the wrong one, he did. Then the gun jumped into the kid’s backpack and off they went together to school to see what they culd see…. and that mean ol nasty GUN just up and killed some folks. We need some sort of testing prorotol to idienty the “evil” guns and mlt them down, The “good ” guns can remin, as they are innately harmless.

      (shuoldn’t need to, but “Src off” goes here)

    • “The one who picks up the gun and pulls the trigger is the only one responsible”
      From a legal perspective, as it pertains to a charge like unintentional manslaughter, that’s not necessarily the case. Unintentional manslaughter has no burden of proof of intention, so the wanton disregard for the consequences of a responsible party’s actions (guardian toward minor child) can be the foundation of an unintentional manslaughter charge. The Michigan appellate court has proven that to be the case, when they upheld the conviction of a father who “didn’t pull the trigger”, but whose 10 year old son killed a friend.

  6. Just as a reminder collective punishment is a war crime. The prosecutor what pushed for this prosecution should do more time than they want to go after the parents for.

    • “Just as a reminder collective punishment is a war crime.”

      If that is true, “felony murder” is a war crime. Wonder why that theory has yet to be tested in court?

    • DoW

      Lucky for you, being dumb isn’t a war crime. We’re you ever in the military? Ever heard heard of Saturday morning formation in dress uniform when someone in your unit got a DUI?

      How many people have been fired from positions of leadership when airmen/soldiers/sailors/marines in their units continually did not perform to (sometimes arbitrary) acceptable standards?

  7. Much is left to come out and I believe the parent were aware of His bad behavior as many others were. The Question is did their knowledge rise to the level of Violating any law. Even though Michigan Has Not Law requiring the Safe Storage of Firearms. In order to Keep them out of the hands of Anyone including Children. Sounds a bit like the Kyle Rittenhouse Indictment. We have to “Do Something”. Even when No Law is Broken. To Quell the Uproar from the Mob.

  8. Thinking charging the parents represents the intention of the DA to send a message that “safe storage”, or “no guns” are the only way for people with children to protect themselves from criminal charges.

  9. Lots of “gun hatred” red flags here.

    If the student were 18 years old, then it seems out of the question that they would charge the parents (or any other adult) with a crime if they did not have any DIRECT involvement.

    Yet they have charged the 15 year old student “as an adult,” which would seem to imply that they are planning to make the case he should be held fully responsible for his actions.

    You can’t have it both ways.

    As always, we need to wait for the facts to emerge to know what’s really going on.

    • Unfortunately, when you’re the government, you can have it both ways: “Rules for thee, not for me!”

      It’s just a thinly veiled way to get an enhanced sentence while pretending to honor due process. Nobody thinks a minor was magically an adult just during the cmmison of a crime.

      They do the same thing in my state with child molesters: they don’t have a mental illness and can be convicted and go to jail, but when their sentence is up, they suddenly have a mental illness that merits indefinite commitment to a psychiatric facility.

    • TFred,

      You make an excellent point: if the state is going to charge the juvenile spree-killer as an adult, then the prosecutor cannot blame “negligent storage” on the parents.

    • “You can’t have it both ways.”

      Might need some general education on “the law”. “The law” is not about justice, fairness, logic, truth. “The law” is about “the law; written by lawyers to benefit lawyers (and politicians).

      If a person can be charged with murder because that person is in attendance with someone who commits the murder, a crime for not committing a crime, then, under that type logic, a person can be declared both a minor and an adult regarding the same crime.

      But for some really entertaining logic, look to the California Supreme Court. Not long ago, that court handed down a ruling that simply because a law cannot be physically complied with that doesn’t mean the law is invalid, and must be shut down/overturned by the courts.

      The butcher had it right, all along.

    • You’re incorrect: charging a minor as an adult can be connected to the seriousness of the crime. Additionally, negligent behavior isn’t limited to a guardian/child relationship.
      Lastly: while I certainly don’t have the details that the prosecution has, I have enough experience to tell you that – if they are willing to file unintentional manslaughter charges against the parents – the State’s case does not hinge around negligent storage, but is peppered with instances of willful or wanton disregard.

      • “the State’s case does not hinge around negligent storage”

        It’s starting to look like that is indeed the case. And while the whole thing is obviously very bad, that would actually make me feel “better” that the prosecution is prosecuting actual crimes rather than “just guns.”

  10. Ok. I live here in MI
    Regardless: Dad buys SP2022 last Friday Kid posts gun pics in hand same day. Full access. To me, high probability the gun was a straw or simply left on the kitchen counter. Safe of any type? I’d say zero percent.
    The Mom is a real piece of work. Both parents know full well their kid has issues. Tuesday Visit to school not the first time. The kid has every single facial feature reflecting fetal alcohol syndrome. Thanks Mom! Unstable household. Shooter’s half brother bailed to live with biological mother in Florida due to issues with now arraigned Mom. (Read interview. The brother Eli is pretty darn coherent).

    As noted MI law has no firm gun storage statute. However a guy that left a handgun in a shoebox, easily accessed by a 6 year old who grabbed and shot a classmate to death – did 29 months. Some precedent exists.

    If proven to be a straw, and that may be easy for the prosecutor to argue given the kid’s instant access, the parents are toast.

    If ya buy a quick access safe such as flat gunvault, mount that sucker to a flat object and recess whatever bolt fastens it. Or hook a nice thick cable to the back. Ensure a kid has no idea what combination is and lecture big for the record with co-witness kid can NEVER lay a finger on it. Do all that, the kid finds a way to pry it open, zero chance any heat will be placed on parents. Zero. In Michigan. These parents are low lifes. Period.

    • F.A.S.

      Interesting. I now see the facial similarities, and am curious to know if that will come out in the investigation. Twenty years ago, I knew of someone (a friend of a friend) who had F.A.S. and eventually went postal on someone due to anger issues and a poor ability to cope with criticism. He ended up in jail and that was the last I heard of him.

      • It’s for sure real. I dealt with person at work with what I suspected was FAS. Incredibly gifted con artist that years later ended up in prison. Sad. Nicholas Cruz same features. Not much of a way they can introduce FAS in the case and they will not. School administrators should be quietly hip to FAS. Note it to themselves. Extra eye. Proven fact unstable rotten behavior can suddenly erupts in kids with FAS when they hit teen years – things can go off the rail real fast. Nicholas Cruz. Sad thing. Kinda why I REALLY dislike the Mom. Her text message. Drove the half brother out of the house. Must have drank like a pig while carrying Ethan. He had no say in it. She did.

        I wonder if involuntary manslaughter will stick. The Prosecutor must have quite a bit of evidence to support the charge. The parents knew the kid was deranged, bought a 2022 aka Sig Pro (best grip on the planet imo, great value) and the kid is flashing pics with it same day. Crazy. My Sigs sit behind thick steel and a stick of dynamite ain’t blowing that door off.

        As an aside some of the posts here claim the parents have zero exposure. Insane. No evidence to support statement. The prosecutor is a woman and Oakland County is heavy to right, plenty of gun owners. Not Wayne County.

      • Kid’s a dead ringer for an ex-neighbor up the street. He was diagnosed with FAS and ADHD,. Many years back,he stole the keys to the pickup truck when pos parents were away at LasVegas, and drove through the front of a neighborhood house… apparently, the resident of the bedroom he aimed for had been part of a group of kids at school that had teased him about his looks. Luckily, the resident of the bedroom was in the bathroom at the time. I recall that the parents were charged with child neglect… both families moved shortly after the incident. Not sure how much of a factor that Fakebook, etc. was back then.

    • A purchase of a firearm as a gift for a family member does NOT equal a “straw”.

      You can give or purchase a gift for your kid. At least while we still live in a free nation.

  11. Might as well charge them with felony fornicating 16 years ago. That prosecutor has the bit in his mouth and he’s going to try to burn everyone he can. Probably go after Sig and the gun shop also.

      • Yeah. But you can bet he’ll bring it up. He wants as many trophy heads as he can get, and if that means assigning culpability to 3rd parties, he’ll do it for political reasons if no other. The process is the punishment.

        • He’s a she. I watched her news conference this morning. She’s good, very controlled, quite articulate, very reasoned statements.

          She laid out a VERY damning case against the parents, by the way. There was nothing political about it that I could see. Listen to her statements before making any accusations.

          If the facts are as she has stated, the charges of involuntary manslaughter will stand.

          They chose poorly.

      • “Sig has no responsibility here. Sig is not his parents. His parents have responsibility.”

        Au contraire. SIG should have known the gun would be fascinating to a youngster wanting to boost his self-esteem, a self-esteem boost that would lead to the youngster acting out his fantasies by shooting up a school. Not only that SIG should have known parents would likely buy the gun in order to assist the youngster in boosting his self-esteem through dangerous handling of a firearm. SIG advertisements play on a young persons ideas of what it means “to be a man”. Knowing all this, SIG failed to produce a “smart gun” that would have prevented the entire episode.

        (Now, did I include everything?)

  12. The parents insist that they didn’t pull the trigger and don’t know how live ammo got into the gun.

    Oh wait, that was Alec Baldwin. Never mind.

  13. These parents are most definitely partially responsbile…from

    The teen then took to social media around that date to post images of a semi-automatic handgun with the caption “just got my new beauty today [heart emoji] sig sauer 9mm any questions I will answer,” according to McDonald.

    The next day, McDonald said Jennifer Crumbley posted on social media “mom and son day testing out his new Christmas present.”

    They bought this handgun for him as a present. I’m a gun owner and parent. There is NO WAY I’m buying a 15year old a handgun. My 10 year old has a 20ga, .22, and 270 for hunting. All locked away in a safe. There would be no reason I’d buy him a 9mm. He uses mine at the range etc but he has no need for one nor is he old enough/responsible enough to “own” one.

    In the week before the shooting, on Nov. 21, McDonald said a teacher at the school had noticed Ethan Crumbley searching for ammunition on his cell phone during class and reported the incident to administrators.

    His mother then was contacted by phone and email, but the school never heard back from her, McDonald says. Instead, she added, Jennifer exchanged a text message with her son that said “Lol I’m not mad at you, you have to learn not to get caught.”

    hmmmm…while this seems damning it can also be pretty innocent. One could easily believe he’s just looking up ammo prices for the next trip to the range. Especially these days where ammo is in short supply and costs a lot online checking of prices is pretty normal.

    THIS though is pretty freaking bad:
    Then on the morning of the shooting, Ethan’s teacher noticed an alarming note on his desk that contained drawings of a semi-automatic handgun, a bullet and a person being shot twice with the phrases “the thoughts won’t stop, help me,” “blood everywhere,” “my life is useless” and “the world is dead” written throughout, according to McDonald. The prosecutor said Ethan and his parents were immediately summoned to a meeting, during which they were advised to get their son into counseling within 48 hours.

    At that meeting, the parents were shown Ethan’s drawing but portions of it were scratched out, such as the drawing of the gun and bloody figure, McDonald said.

    She noted that the parents resisted the idea of their son leaving school and departed the building without him. He then returned to the classroom and hours later drew the weapon from his backpack and started firing, prosecutors allege.

    WOW…this is not only on the parents but also the school First, the parents knew about the handgun. They also most assuredly have known of previous odd behavior. This type of things just doesn’t pop up. Knowing all these things the fact they didn’t 1)Rush home to check IF the gun was still locked up(if it even was) 2)Didn’t pull there kid from school and bring him home shows incredible negligence on their part.

    BUT what the hell is wrong with the school? Why the hell did they even GIVE the parents the choice to take the kid home. At the point the kid should have been suspended for the day and not allowed back until he got counseling. If they thought it was serious enough to DEMAND the parents get counseling within 48 hours then it was serious enough to 1)suspend student and have police escort offsite 2) notify police/resource officer to be on the look out for him trying to get back in.

    I also have to believe that the school officials asked the parents if he had access to a handgun etc. If the parents answered YES then it’s even worse he wasn’t immediately removed from campus. If they answered no or refused to answer then, while also on the school, it’s even more on the parent.

    So ONCE AGAIN we have a case where there was a warning….a pretty freaking clear one…and once again the Govt/School failed to protect the students.

    Yet another reason to get your kids out of public schools.

    • From

      even worse

      The father, according to McDonald, stored the 9mm handgun in an unlocked drawer in his bedroom.

      WOW..just wow….the idea of leaving a handgun or any gun accessible in a house with a 15yr old boy is just plain irresponsible.

      According to the prosecutor, the mother and father failed to ask Ethan if he had his gun with him, or where his gun was, and did not inspect his backpack.

      Again…not good. They KNEW the gun wasn’t locked up..that he could easily have it on him. For that thought not to even cross their minds is beyond belief. BUT why the F didn’t the school ask the parents? WHY didn’t the school search the backpack, locker etc? WHY didn’t the school remove him from campus right away?!

      • Kevin Johanss,

        “…the idea of leaving a handgun or any gun accessible in a house with a 15yr old boy is just plain irresponsible.”

        Not necessarily at all–it depends on how responsible and stable the 15 year-old boy is. There are several examples of children (as young as, what, age 9?) using firearms responsibly to save lives in righteous self-defense.

        If the information that you provided in this case is correct, then yes it was incredibly irresponsible for the spree-killer’s parents to leave him and his firearm unattended.

      • “the idea of leaving a handgun or any gun accessible in a house with a 15yr old boy is just plain irresponsible.”

        Maybe in recent history. I grew up with firearms stored in a closet under the stairs, and a handgun in my parents nightstand. Never mishandled the guns, nor did any of my friends when they were at the house when my parents were gone. Same for my younger brother, and his friends. (yes, brother and I both had NRA firearms training).

        Back in the day, kids were terrified of parents finding out the kid acted irresponsibly at any time, and caused damage or injury. My brother and I feared parents had place the guns in such a manner that we couldn’t move the guns without leaving a trace. Besides, our exact replica Colt .45s worked just fine while we were playing.

  14. No one under the age of 18 should have free run of weapons, without adult supervision.
    If for no other reason, to stop the involuntary manslaughter charge.
    Trust no one, question everything.

    • That’s the Leftist view of the world. Instead of encouraging discipline and family order, restrict the rights of others instead.

      I was responsible when I was younger. I know many others who were as well, or who are today (as teenagers currently). The age of a person doesn’t matter as much as the discipline of the social environment.

      We’ve seen the breakdown of the family, so much that the Left has literally vowed to destroy it. We see the results in the formations of groups such as Antifa and BLM that openly disavow the nuclear family.

      We’ve seen the removal of God from the public square, and therefore the respect for life and the belief in an ultimate Authority, and accountability to that Authority. We now have at least two generations of people walking among us who believe nothing matters in the end, and they can take what they want from life as long as they don’t get caught.

      We’ve seen the breakdown of responsibility, and the open mockery of valor, loyalty, virtue, honesty, and faith. What the Left has given us is now cowardice, disconnection, manipulation, distrust, anger, and apathy.

      I once acted as a range officer for an informal outing of about 40 men, a few of whom brought their teenage sons, to the desert for a day of shooting and camaraderie. Every one of those young men were absolutely trustworthy with a gun because they were held to the higher standards of responsible men, and I would trust my life to any one of them.

      The answer to our societal ills is not more restrictions. The answer is a return to faith in God, commitment to (heterosexual father/mother) marriage, disciplinary yet loving parenting, and accountability to ideals that are higher than Self.

      • Single slow clap … multiple slow clapping … leading to thunderous applause!

        I tip my hat to you fine sir.

    • If you’re raising idiot irresponsible kids (as the typical prog) then JOLJ has a point. Otherwise BS.

  15. Unless the parents were active participants in the shooting there’s no way they should be held accountable for the actions of anyone else even if that person was their child.

  16. this sounds like gross negligence all around. parents for gifting their clearly disturbed son a gun, school administration for not suspending the boy on the spot for his drawings, parents again for not following up when confronted with said drawings and perhaps acting to make sure the gun was secure. really sad case all around that once again could easily have been prevented by just plain old common sense. no gun law in the world can provide that, regardless of what they want to call it

  17. Good luck to the D.A. proving intent on the parents’ part. Willful Intent (an evil motive) is a needed element to a criminal charge (U.S. v Bishop, 412 US 346).

    • I have zero sympathy for this murderous lunatic’s mom & dad. Dunno about FAS but that’s one demented looking pos. One question is the caliber of the murder weapon. 9mm Sig was variously reported as well as a 2022 Sig. Either way it “appears” they gifted it to their deranged progeny.

  18. Must agree. Be responsible for your scumbag child or face the consequences. If the moron would have hidden his gun, the wacko kid would have had to use a knife or a blunt instrument

    • You cannot hide firearms from children. They will find them. You need to lock them up. Anything else is gross negligence.

      • You were doing good with sentence #1 and 2. Then you went stupid.

        A “locked up” firearm is as useless, in the event you need it NOW, as bag of ramen noodles.

  19. So, now it appears local law enforcement has enlisted the help of the FBI and U.S. Marshals Service to try to locate the parents who are now considered to be “fugitives from justice”.

    Just… wow.

      • As in: this bizarre story just keeps getting more inexplicable.

        And now, after watching the parent’s arraignment this morning- the intrigue continues…

        • Definitely more details continue to emerge. It’ll be interesting to see the full picture that emerges at discovery.

      • Because the FBI, US Marshals, and every other LEO org are criminal organizations. That is an objective truth. They regularly victimize their fellow Americans, at the behest of the government, to enforce laws. Laws, which for the most part, have no victim and only hinge upon them being malum prohibitum. After all, laws are simply artificial rules that are created by human beings and enforced against other human beings with violence. Every single person that works in a law enforcement capacity is your enemy. I’m not trying to be hyperbolic or melodramatic, but I was once a bootlicking imbecile, but no more.

        • It is. I honestly don’t know how people can see it any other way, given the mountain of evidence that supports it. The FBI murdered a man in front of his pregnant wife because he dared to possess a short-barreled rifle without paying a 200 dollar fee. The FBI murdered Randy Weavers wife because she was…running away with her child. They are most assuredly your enemies and they should be treated as such.

  20. According to the county prosecutor the parents of young Crumbley “resisted the idea” of removing their son from school hours before the shooting occurred. Apparently, young Crumbley drew horrifying images of a bullet and person shot with a laughing emoji that alarmed teachers days before the shooting, and he posted this on his twitter account a few days before the shooting

    and posted this the day before the shooting

    It seems the teachers were concerned, the parents knew, and the school principal was very concerned, that the kid was about to explode and needed help. The teachers did not protest his continued presence, the parents resisted removing him from the very environment he threatened, and the school principal took days to act on concerns of teachers – and in all this no one helped the kid before he went off despite knowing he needed help and having access to the very things that could have helped him, and by not helping him they in effect helped enable him.

    Not trying to be “awwww…lets feel sorry for a killer” but he isn’t the only one with blame here.

    This school shooting is not the fault of guns, and even though young Crumbley pulled the trigger its the fault of all those who did not help him knowing he needed help choosing instead to go with “procedure”. They “procedured” themselves into a school shooting.

    • Oh and…

      texts show Ethan’s mom Jennifer messaged her son “don’t do it” after telling him to “learn not to get caught.”

      yeah, this kid was enabled all the way around by parents, teachers, principal by not doing the right thing and getting him help.

      Yeah, I can see why the parents are charged.

      • Oh yeah, …

        On the picture he drew that alarmed the teachers, young Crumbly wrote a note that read… “The thoughts won’t stop, help me. My life in useless. The world is dead.”

        No one helped this kid when they should have. He was even asking for help. But gotta follow procedures… in all this no one helped the kid before he went off despite knowing he needed help and having access to the very things that could have helped him, and by not helping him they in effect helped enable him.

        The teachers knew, the parents knew, and the school principal knew he needed help – and no one helped him.

        • how do you “help” him by buying a kid like this a pistol?….and then giving him access to it?….very bizarre family….

      • (note: “texts show Ethan’s mom Jennifer messaged her son “don’t do it” after telling him to “learn not to get caught.” – the texts were sent after he was found to be searching on line for ammunition (at school). The “learn not to get caught.” text was sent after he had already started shooing up the school)

  21. How about prosecuting the judge and DA who enabled the perpetrator of the Wakasau massacre to run at large?

  22. Well which is it? The kid is charged as an adult, or the parents are responsible for the kid?

    If we’re going to have it both ways, let’s charge Carrell Brooks mom with manslaughter since she gave him the SUV.

  23. Perhaps the police know something we do not because apparently the kids parents are on the run now.

  24. A teacher found Ethan searching for ammunition on his cell phone during class and reported it to higher-ups. Administrators left a voicemail for Jennifer Crumbley and followed up with an email, but received no response.

    “Lol, I’m not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught,” Jennifer texted her son.

    … Charges were filed, in part, to “send a message that gun owners have a responsibility,” McDonald said Friday. “Four kids were murdered and seven more injured. So yes, I think we should all be very angry and we should take a very hard look at what is in place in terms of criminal responsibility and what gun owners are required to do.”

    • the FCC comes down really hard on cell-phone jammers…even though, at times there may be a valid need for them and they’e legal elsewhere…the telecommunication industry has a really thick checkbook….

  25. That’s a real stretch…but I suppose they want to be seen as doing SOMEthing.
    Will they arrest and charge the parents of gang members in Chicago and other gang-infested cities now?

    • That’s assuming that the gang members still have living parents….in this country….for the ones under 18….that anyone cares to actually investigate.

  26. How can someone get convicted of manslaughter on the basis of a newly made up non-law governing firearm storage?

    • That’s not the basis for the charges. Under Michigan law, parents of a minor can be held criminally responsible if, through wanton disregard or gross negligence, they fail to prevent access to a firearm when they have knowledge of the possibility of criminal misuse on the part of the minor. There is legal and jurisprudential precedent (see People of State of Michigan v. Christopher Duran Head – “per curiam” decision 352966 – Wayne Circuit Court, MI)

  27. The prosecutor will try to break the parents by telling them their kid is going to be sent to death row unless they cooperate and the kid is going to be told that he is literally murdering his parents by refusing to cooperate. They will all break.

    A modern prosecutor succeeds by terrifying their targets into admissions and pleas. Facts and law have some bearing, of course, but the threat of a modern jury who can barely focus on anything for more than 10 minutes in a row is, and should be, really scary. Who here wants to be judged by 12 graduates of a modern high school – or possibly non-graduates? Unless you happen to have direct video evidence exculpating you (like Rittenhouse) the CSI effect is unavoidable. That’s where a jury, which has been raised on slick Hollywood recreations and special effects, expects a defendant will be able to prove their innocence by great audio-visual exhibits while a well-funded prosecutor lays out massive testimony, video, surveillance and experts to overwhelm them. The sheer cost of trying to defend against such a thing in terms of time, money, stress and strife is massive and the risks are enormous.

    These defendants are doomed. The kid may get locked into state care for what appear to be serious mental health issues but the parents’ sheer cluelessness isn’t going to play well anywhere. They’re not going to get a community service plea offer. They are going to be taken to the mat and punished.

  28. Just from what little I’ve read or heard on the evening news, the kid, no matter his mental state, did knowingly and intentionally bring said pistol to school and shoot several people. Killing 4. Sounds like first degree murder too me. And yes, if his parents allowed him access to a handgun at the age of 15, outside of direct controlled supervision, at a safe range or other safe area, they are at least partially responsible for his actions.
    My Grandson is getting a 22 rifle for Christmas. With the very clear understanding that he has no access but under my direct supervision and control. With my kids in their teen years, they also knew there would be hell to pay if they put hands on any of the guns without direct permission and supervision.
    If, some or all of the parents of the various school, or even street punk shooters would be held accountable for the actions of their minor children, we might see fewer of these types of tragedies/crimes. Either my wife, or myself knew exactly what was in our kids book bags/back packs when they went to school. And checked what they brought home in them as well. We also knew what they were up too or with who they hung out. I was a bit of a wild child as a teen and know the kind of dumb decisions a teenage boy can think up or do. So I made sure my kids didn’t do the same dumb things. Both my kids and the kids we fostered. While a few of the foster kids had problems before they came to us, they learned right from wrong and were loved no matter what they had behind them. If the school called us about a problem, we made sure if help was needed, the kids got it. If discipline was needed, they got that as well.

    • remember when kids could wander down the street with a .22 and hardly raise an eyebrow?…only the occasional admonition to make sure it wasn’t loaded…almost feels like a previous life…

  29. While there is a lot of blame everywhere, I’d like to argue there is little power a teacher has to remove a student from class, let alone school. A teacher saw a disturbing drawing, reported it, and then had to accept the decisions that were made by the administrators.

    • Although Michigan does not have red flag laws (or didn’t), in Michigan anyone who has reasonable grounds to believe – a person intends to or will harm themselves or others or expresses serious ideation of such – can contact the police who will hold them in “protective custody” (not arrest – there is no record of arrest for this) and take them to be evaluated by mental health professionals.

      Under MENTAL HEALTH CODE, Section 330.1427; section 427: “If a peace officer observes an individual conducting himself or herself in a manner that causes the peace officer to reasonably believe that the individual is a person requiring treatment, the peace officer may take the individual into protective custody and transport the individual to a preadmission screening unit designated by a community mental health services program for examination under section 429 or for mental health intervention services.”

      Its my view that the pictures drawn would have caused at least some concern for a “peace officer” to “reasonably believe that the individual is a person requiring treatment.”

      If a pupil exhibits a pattern of behavior that poses a substantial risk of creating an emergency situation, the school is suppose to enact an intervention plan that includes positive behavioral intervention and support, and for the care, safety, welfare, and security of the school community they may remove the student from the school (depending on the situation). Its a little vague from there, but various references make note of then getting the pupil evaluated by medical and mental health professionals but I can’t find how that happens.

      This kid could have started getting help, or at least had a chance of getting help, with a phone call by the teacher or principal.

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