As Professor Harold Hill‘s detractors pointed out, you gotta know the territory. In this case it’s the West Bank, not a happy place for Israeli soldiers. The IDF face constant attack from Arab teens bent on proving their manhood: “A Rite of Passage, an Act of Defiance” the Times headline proclaims, intimating that the soldiers coming for the tot sheltering behind his mother. Yes, well, that’s not the child. “The mother of Muhammad Abu Hashem, 17, put on a headscarf as Israeli soldiers stormed into their home at 4 a.m. last month to arrest him in the West Bank town of Beit Ommar. It was Muhammad’s fourth arrest in three years for throwing stones at Israeli soldiers and settlers.” Remember that a rock can be a deadly weapon—as our U.S. Border Patrol agents have successfully argued in self-defense shootings. While we’re no fan of SWAT teams context is all. So where is it? One thing is for sure: Islamo-fascists are gonna love this one.
This is where I point out that the West Bank is even less of a happy place for Palestinians. It’s pretty much an open-air prison camp.
Exactly, the situation is far from simple. Ie- would you throw a stone at an agency depriving you of your basic rights? Many here would do more it seems.
historical note to self don’t lose wars…..
That apparently is part of Israel’s mission statement and should be part of ours!
Funny kind of concentration camp where the inmates are armed.
The rest of the countries in the middle east use this as a wedge issue so the people don’t look at the hell and misery in their own lives brought on by their dictators and fanatics. Jordan and the other countries could easily swallow up the immigrants and pay them very well in cash. If you look at a map, you will see that Israel is a small speck in this vast region. Remember also, that far more Christians and Jews were kicked out of those crap hole turd world countries than muslims were kicked out of the disputed territory (where all three religions lived for countless centuries).
In peace no less… That is, until the Cruisades.
To which it was given those of nations (Arab in particular) to rule the lands.
“…Until the time of The Gentiles is Complete.”
Also, remember that the first “Crusade” was a response to muslim armies militarily taking land and expansion into conquered Christian areas.
True Christianity or The Holy Roman Empire “Christaianity”?
“Slaughter them all, let God sort them out!” As they knew fellow Christians lived in Jerusalem at the time.
I have yet to find that sentiment of hatred in any of the New Testament scriptures.
In-fact, I find the complete opposite.
So how could so many be decieved?
It is called False Religion…
This is a firearms site? Laugh..
OK. The Byzantine Empire invited the crusaders. They needed help recovering “their” land from Muslim armies. The First Crusade did recover a good piece of the Holy Land. The Byzantines said “thanks. Now hand it over to us.” The crusaders said “nope. We like it here.” That’s how armies are, isn’t it? I note we’ve sold 60 billion in arms to the Saudis recently, and the Brits have done the same and more. We’ve trained the Egyptian Army’s spec ops for years, off and on. God knows (oops) we’ve been close to the Israelis since the early days financially, militarily, having the only other large Jewish population in the world, about Israel-sized. We’re on every side in the middle-east. I assume this is good for the Bankers.
I personally would blame the Turks, the Tsars, the British upper class, and the Nazis for the mess in Palestine, each for obvious reasons. The consequences are what they are.
From the photo it appears that it was necessary to use four or five soldiers to arrest a stone-throwing teenager. Why, then, did it take at least ten LEO’s to confiscate and kill Bambi in Wisconsin? Curious minds want to know.
Finally, I’d like to point out that a significant warlord in western Afghanistan went to high school very close to Saylorsburg, PA, a town featured in a TTAG post today. He owned a Harley and loved it. His favorite song is apparently still “Highway to Hell.” Netanyahu, Bibi, went to high school in North East Philadelphia, Cheltenham High. Are you seeing a pattern here? Ok, Mao’s grand-daughter went to the University of Pennsylvania, now runs a Mao-oriented bookstore in Beijing, and is married to a Chinese billionaire. There, I hope my point is clear. Something’s up with Pennsylvania.
Agreed. It’s also an object lesson in collective punishment, which we at TTAG find frustrating to no end when it’s about gun politics here. It’s a mess over there.
It’s easy to see the wrong in throwing stones, but there’s a whole lot of “wrongs” going on. Tearing down olive trees, kicking people off land they’ve lived on for generations and building walls and settlements around water sources in disputed areas isn’t exactly playing nice, either. If your kid was throwing rocks at people here in the States and this was the police response, would you consider it acceptable? I don’t agree with people throwing rocks, but I suppose I can understand it. I think the heavy-handed responses like the one pictured above do more harm than good in the long run.
That’s just it. You hit the nail on the head, “What would we be doing?”
So does it not then make more sense to have compassion & understanding?
“Because of your Hard-Heartedness…”
There you have it.
Wish Pope Francis was the kind of guy to call for a crusade.
If a rite of passage is throwing rocks at fully equipped combat troops, don’t be shocked when it’s your last rites.
I’d say that sums it up pretty well.
Just like its a rite of passage for Chicago teens to randomly punch people on the Mag Mile?
Villiany knows no bounds or borders.
I was actually in a Jerusalem riot/protest recently. They beat the loving crap out of you whether or not you throw rocks. Lemme tell you, not fun. But other than the beat down, I had a great time.
LOL!
now i can say lol but i had my face plastered all over the news with my shirt ripped off and five riot police dragging me. the funny thing was i didn’t care about the protest, i just wanted to check it out. oh well. got a good story to go home with. that and the prison i was in caught fire while i was there.
Sounds like the plot to Hangover 4, lol.
A boy grows up to be a man, with vengeance in his heart. Better to take care of things today than create the enemies of tomorrow.
Indeed.
“Give a Gift & Make a friend forever,
Nothing can untie that Bond.”
So you suggest killing them? Have you ever thought about why he has vengeance in his heart? To fix that maybe? Your suggestion is akin to giving a smoker anti-cough syrup. But I digress its easy to pass judgement and suggestions when it is 15 000 km away from you.
Not to wax philosphical here, but I’m pretty sure the message was one of peace…
If it was a message of peace then I apologize. I have just heard “take care of things” too much refering to something else.
How come the door is still on it’s hinges? Do our SWAT teams have to teach these Israeli’s everything?
They also didn’t shoot their dog.
Hmmm…where’s their Tavors?
Yeah, I was wondering that myself. Also looks like the 3rd guy from the left doesn’t have a mag in his rifle as he stands in the fatal funnel. I’m assuming the first man in the room was the one behind the camera and had room dominance, so no need for a magazine at that point….
It’s ok everything worked out. The family surrendered their dog, the SWAT team killed it and went on their way. Nothing to see here.
All I want to know is where are the Tavor’s at? all I see is M4’s
Tavor’s are not universal among the IDF. Entire units don’t have M4’s. Tavor’s have priority among new recruits so that soldiers that use them, trained on them to begin with.
Is that the rock thrower standing behind her? He seems a little scrawny for 17…
Know how I can tell you didn’t fully read the post?
These are the sort of articles that make me ask myself: “Why do I still read TTAG?” The entire Middle East is a gray area, but people still insist on taking sides. Conservatives jump on the US-Israeli team where all Muslims are terrorists and Liberals paint Muslims (specifically Palestinians) as the eternal victims. Alright, throwing rocks at armed and armored soldiers is idiotic. That will get you arrested in practically any country. But why are they throwing rocks at the soldiers? It’s their way of expressing their frustration over their situation. There are far more constructive ways of doing that, but in “developed” countries those constructive methods still lead to water cannons, tear gas and a whole lotta police brutality.
And I can’t believe the comments. People crying over the fact that Christians were kicked out of the Middle East all those years ago and that Muslims invaded and controlled Christian territories. And mixed in with the idiocy some guy says: “historical note to self don’t lose wars…..”. There you have it.
As for the Border Patrol agents killing the teen throwing rocks, it is disappropriate retribution. Rocks can be deadly, but as we all know, guns are far deadlier. The Border Patrol, hell, the entire US armed forces have been known to kill civilians and unarmed combatants under the guise of “self defense”.
To the latest arrivals desiring land the previous occupants always look Cherokee.
Apartheid is a disgusting idea. The Israeli master race theology of, “God chose me, not you,” should get under the skin of every decent person. That said, Americans should realize that if Israel and the Palestinian Territories sank into the sea there would be no net detriment to us whatsoever.
1+
BesIdes I thought jews fell out of favor after the Golden Calf (not trying to be offensive I am honestly curious)
It’s interesting to see that TTAGers may have a more balanced view about the Israel/Palestine situation than they do about black/brown/white relations here in the U.S.
My personal opinion is that Israel/Palestine is a defacto single apartheid state – Israel occupies Gaza and the West Bank and has control over the flow of food and other desperately needed resources. Israel continues to expropriate land for settlements. Israel has control of all the water. Since the influx of Russian Jews in the 1990’s, Israel has had less demand for cheap Palestinian labor, making the Palestinian economic situation even worse.
On the other side, radical organizations like Hamas (which is huge and diverse, not every member is an active terrorist, most members are strictly political, think IRA) depend on Israeli oppression to maintain their power. Right-wing Israeli hawks depend on terrorist attacks for the same reason. The assholes on both sides need each other to stay in power, and 90% of people on both sides just want to get on with their lives. But in this case, the Israeli assholes hold all the cards.
Increasingly, Palestinian popular movements are adopting the Ghandi/MLK model of nonviolence, but it’s tough to just go out there and get massacred, and if it ain’t on TV or the Internet, it never happened. MLK knew that when he kept marching toward Bull Connor, the cameras would be there. The IDF may go after kids throwing rocks, but what they really hate is a kid with a video camera.
Thank goodness U.S. cops never mess with people’s cameras…but I digress.
Finally, what gets me is how culturally similar Israelis and Palestinians are – they value hard work and education (Palestinians have a very high literacy rate, especially considering their high rate of poverty and social unrest). To an outsider, Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs (Semites?) often look alike. But then, I guess two very similar Christian sects (I have ancestors on both sides) fought for hundreds of years in Ireland, and they may not be done yet. Hence we have Jameson’s and Bushmill’s.
Can’t we all just get along? Not while the world is run by sociopaths.
I look at it this way….
If the Palestinians gave up all forms of violence, they would still be alive.
If the Israelis gave up their forms of violence, they would be exterminated. There is just enough hatred in the region that it is a fact they are dead without having their force. Children are indoctrinated to hate them from day 1.
No, it isn’t a simple situation, but that simple truth remains truth.
For those who are critical of Israel, look in the mirror. What have WE done, since 9/11, over just that one incident? Now imagine having hundreds of incidents over decades. If anyone is overreacting in the world, it’s us, not them.
Children are indoctrinated to hate them? What effect do you suppose it has to grow up behind a massive wall where your only glimpse of your neighbors on the other side is when they come to your side in battle gear?
It is possible, still, for Palestinians to travel to the other side of the wall after going through a rather onerous permit process, but children are being indoctrinated to believe that there is no travel to the other side, and no reason to go there. Any chance for the better part of human nature to take hold is being stamped out by totalitarian, fear-based policies.
I’m not saying Israel doesn’t have good reason to protect themselves–of course they do! But there is a difference between violence in self defense + a show of force for security and a blanket policy of intimidation against an entire (diverse) population.
I look at it this way: when you treat everyone like criminals, you make criminals of anyone and everyone (regardless of whether individuals hold any criminal intent). You don’t know who to fear, so you fear everyone, and keep them all on their knees.
Despite all that, the West Bank is a nice place overall. Lots of good people there. We just only hear about the a-holes here.
As for U.S. / Israeli policies, I’m not split between the two. We’re both overreacting with knee-jerk, fear-driven inhumane policies. We’re both wrong.
Maybe it is time the US ended the billions in welfare the US tax payers are forced to send to Israel every year. We should also end the welfare we send to every other nation in the region. Nothing in the ME is any of our business or responsibility. Not one more drop of American blood or one more ounce of American gold for any nation in that part of the world.
I would imagine if Canada attacked the US 3 times in the last 60 years most on TTAG would be ok with a little bit of conquered southern Canada as a buffer.
The entire country is now “a buffer,” and they never even attacked us. We guard their coasts and air-space.
Hey TTAG,
Can we expunge the middle east politics out of the mission statement?
I come hear to read about exciting tales of DGU’s, not the middle east sh*t storms.
” to explore the ethics, morality, business, politics, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns”
Hey nothing gets traffic like stoking old-world ethnic hatred, right? We’ll get a flame-war going between stupid “Isrull-first!” cons & faggy “aww pwooor Pwalestine” libs. My question is: if you got holocausted by Germans, why punish Palestinians for it? Kinda Freudian, don’t you think?
Getting ‘holocausted’ was a bit late in the game. The first two Aliyahs were mainly composed of Russian and Syrian Jews. The Balfour letter came long before the Third Reich. By 1936 the essential conflicts and goals were clear enough on both sides. Indeed, the pre-war Polish military, nationalist, and with its thoughts focused on Russia, provided training to many of the Betar, who provided the core of the Irgun, which was founded in 1931. The Betar, mainly Polish, briefly endorsed Mussolini and adopted the black shirt as their uniform…until the invasion of Ethiopia. Nothing is simple. The logical counterweight to the foreign support of Zionism would seem to have been Palestinians funded by, say, the Ottomans. Ah, but the Arabs had only recently revolted against the Ottomans. Too bad. If the Palestinians had been thoughtful, they’d have grabbed at any partition offer, then joined their state to Syria or Lebanon when the French were finally booted. History’s a bvtch. There’s nothing nice about most of it. We struggle against each other, because we are naturally aggressive. No? Look at our own domestic politics. Laugh.
I have notice in the news that the peace loving arabs (sic) hide behind the women and children. Shows their not man enough to stand on their own 2 hind legs.
Is that the same news you trust to give you fair & balanced reporting about guns? Whose interest might it would serve to publish imagery like that? Don’t be hateful.
Just for the record, the Palestinian “youths” who are “throwing rocks” are NOT throwing them like a baseball pitcher. They are using Biblical-style slings (think David/Goliath), and throwing what has been a deadly weapon in the Mideast for thousands of years. These slings are the same as those used by the Roman legions’ Balearic slingers.
From Wikipedia: “A sling is a projectile weapon typically used to throw a blunt projectile such as a stone, clay or lead “sling-bullet”. It is also known as the shepherd’s sling. A sling has a small cradle or pouch in the middle of two lengths of cord. The sling stone is placed in the pouch. The middle finger is placed through the loop, the other string has a tab that is placed between the thumb and forefinger. The sling is swung and with a flick of the wrist the tab is released at the precise moment. This frees the projectile to fly to the target. The sling derives its effectiveness by essentially extending the length of a human arm, thus allowing stones to be thrown farther than they could be by hand.
The sling is inexpensive and easy to build. It has historically been used for hunting game and in combat. Film exists of Spanish Civil War combatants using slings to throw grenades over buildings into enemy positions on the opposite street. Today the sling interests sportsmen as a wilderness survival tool and as an improvised weapon. Ancient peoples used the sling in combat and armies included specialist slingers, as well as equipping regular soldiers with slings. As a weapon, the sling had several advantages. A sling bullet lobbed in a high trajectory can achieve ranges approaching 400 m; the current Guinness World Record distance of an object thrown with a sling stands at 477.0 m, set by David Engvall in 1992 using a metal dart. Larry Bray held the previous world record (1982), in which a 52 g stone was thrown 437.1 m. Modern authorities vary widely in their estimates of the effective range of ancient weapons and of course bows and arrows could also have been used to produce a long-range arcing trajectory, but ancient writers repeatedly stress the sling’s advantage of range. The sling was light to carry and cheap to produce; ammunition in the form of stones was readily available and often to be found near the site of battle. The ranges the sling could achieve with molded lead glandes was only topped by the strong composite bow or, centuries later, the heavy English longbow, both at massively greater cost. ”
The “rock throwing” by the Palestinian “youths” constitutes attempted murder every time they throw one. Type in “Palestinian slingers” and take a look at the images. These aren’t little kids throwing rocks like baseballs.
And if the kid actually gets a hit, the solider had it coming.
I am in no way antisemitic, and I personally support the existence of Israel 100%, but they need to get the hell out of the west bank if they ever really want to see peace. I have no sympathy for IDF soldiers, and especially the settlers that get attacked by Palestinians in the West Bank. Israeli settlers (especially the illegal ones) are a special kind of crazy a$$hole, and no better than the extremist muslims that wish to push Israel into the dead sea. Any rock that cracks them in the skull is justified, IMO.
Always been nuts over there, always will be. Go back about 2000 years and read “The Jewish War” (some translations call it “War of the Jews)) by Josephus. He was a first-century Jewish rebel general who got sick of the factionalism on his side and switched over to the Romans because, crucifixions and all, they were the voice of sanity and stability. Just page after page of people using really minor religious differences as an excuse for unbelievable brutality. Substitute AKs and RPGs for swords and spears and it reads like current events. Another fun read about the Middle East (if you like pounding headaches trying to keep the teams straight) is a late-80s history of Lebanon called “Pity the Nation.” Oh, you thought it was a simple Christians-versus-Muslims deal? You are only off by 40 or 50 factions. When the author gets to the point where he is explaining why the various Armenian factions periodically try to kill each other off…
I don’t see how a post like this does anything for the mission of this site. There’s certainly a time and place for this discussion, but right now gun owners in America need to be united, not driven apart by unrelated issues.
A sad outcome of Schickelgruber’s little party is that an officially Jewish nation can do no wrong.
I cannot fault the Palestinians for (poorly) reenacting Red Dawn
Reading prior comments tells me a history lesson is needed for all of TTAG’s readers:
Israel was founded in 1948, after the “Palestinians” refused a two-state deal in 1947 as ratified by the newly created U.N. A war broke out, where Jews who had barely begun recovering from the Holocaust defended their sparse settlements in the part of the land that had previously been unsettled. They chose those areas b/c the Palestinians hadn’t ever setup villages due to limited water, grazing, and agriculture. 60+ years later, the Jews in Israel brought water to the desert.
In several wars, just about a major one every decade, Israel defended itself from a considerably larger multi-national (all its Arab neighbors) force. In 1967, Israel won a decisive victory over its 6 neighboring countries and took considerable territory in the exchange. They returned the Sinai peninsula to Egypt (after the Israelis discovered oil there) and offered them Gaza. They also offered to return the West Bank but Jordan declined. Later, a peace treaty was signed with Jordan, who still didn’t want the West Bank back.
Any guess why Gaza and West Bank were rejected when offered? The people living there had been banished from Egypt and Jordan, respectively, due to multiple coup attempts. The Palestinians were kicked out of every country they ever lived in for trying to commit violent overthrows. The Palestinians are hated by other Arabs, but Arabs still hate Jews more. Hence, the Middle East dilemma.
In the 1993, the Clinton administration brokered the Oslo accords to get greater autonomy for the Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. The deal included creation of a the Palestinian Authority police force, which was to be armed and trained by the Israelis. What happened to those weapons? They were used to kill Israelis, unarmed civilians mostly.
A few years later, Clinton nearly secured a “lasting” peace deal when Israeli PM Barak offered Palestinian leader Arafat 97% of his demands. Actually, he offered 97% and said agree to this, then we’ll give the remaining 3% after a period of peace. Arafat said “no”.
Fast forward a bit, Israel withdrew from Gaza entirely. Yet, terror attacks against civilian targets continued. What is a government to do to protect their population? They erected a security fence. Sbarro’s pizza in Jerusalem was bombed at least 2 times prior to the fence. The fence worked, Palestinian terrorists can’t gain access to civilian targets anymore.
Israel constructed a similar fence in the late 80s in the North to protect itself from Lebenon. That fence was dismantled in the 90s as part of an armistice deal. The security fence, while effective, expensive, and seemingly permanent was created with the intent to dismantle it if/when lasting peace is achieved.
Israel may seem like the aggressor b/c of the media’s hatred of Israel and the nightly news’ negative portrayal of Israel. However, their soldiers operate under the greatest combat restrictions ever applied. If you thought the rules of engagement for US soldiers in Iraq were hamstringing operations, read a little about the regulations Israeli soldiers must adhere to.
The Palestinians created their own mess. In the 80s, Palestinian terror was uncommon. This was partially due to casinos in Palestinian territories that went out of their way to lure and protect Israeli customers. Palestinians enjoyed equal opportunity to cross into Israel unfettered for work.
The terrorists make it difficult to know who can be trusted to enter, work, and be in Israel. So, if the terrorist are going to hide among civilians, civilians won’t be allowed in. Not a good solution, but if it keeps your population safe and alive then so be it.
Thanks for the history lesson. I know a little more now than I did before.