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WTF? (courtesy

To “celebrate” Bill Clinton’s remarks about firearms vs. voting regulations, knocked-up this graphic. Note: the “without ID” assault rifle purchases in question are private sales between individuals—mischaracterized by TP as gun sales by “unlicensed dealers at gun shows or online.”

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  1. In NH in order for a private party sale the person must either have a concealed carry license or be “personally known” to the seller. So I guess they’re right when they say my mom wouldn’t need an ID to buy an AR from me…

  2. these groups would do much better to actually be intellectually honest and frame the argument properly. this mass hysteria and guerilla tactics crap turns off people when they learn there are background checks, straw men do exist, and Holderer only prosecuted what 50 people (out of 75,000) for lying on their 4473 form? I know people who bought into this type of “news” until I explained things to them and now they are a bit more skeptical

  3. So they’re saying there are no areas of NYC, Chicago, Denver, or LA where you can buy a gun from your neighborhood drug dealer? HA! Their graphic should have all 50 states red.

  4. Yeah, their voter ID map is way misleading (disregarding their firearms map, which everyone here knows is BS). Only 5 states strictly require an ID to vote (as of 2012 Georgia, Indiana, Tennessee, Pennsylvania, and Kansas). Georgia’s has been in place since 2007 (I think). Since being implemented voting by minorities has actually greatly increased in Georgia. Because voter suppression of minorities and all.

    • Interesting point. I have real issues with voter ID laws; voter fraud is actually very rare and these laws are pretty obviously aimed at elderly low-income minorities (who, since Goldwater – one of my heroes – came out against the Civil Rights Act in ’64 in a move he later regretted, have voted straight ticket Democrat) such as the 83 year old black great-grandmother I help keep an eye on. She hasn’t driven in at least 20 years and I imagine her ID is expired, but she votes. But a threatened loss of rights does encourage participation, be it guns or voting.

      • I have real issues with voter ID laws; voter fraud is actually very rare

        How do you know? If it’s done right, you don’t. Can’t. That’s the whole point, isn’t it?

        I suggest that the only reason some people are campaigning against voter ID laws is because voter fraud is so commonplace.

        • No, I just use my library card. Sort of like I use my voter registration card at the precinct specified. Thought this was an intelligentsia forum. Hell, if I wanted to argue with Fox News dittoheads I would just go over to my sister’s and have a few beers with my brother in law. Remind me not to mention that my box-stock pre-Republic Marlin 60 is ten times more accurate, ergonomic and reliable than the 10/22 I spent a few hundred bucks modifying, I’m allergic to flames.

        • In NJ, the library requires you to present identification documentation – either a state ID or something similar – in order to have borrowing privileges. Maybe where you live the library doesn’t require any identification at all, but somehow I doubt it.

          Maybe you should go back to using racial demagoguery. You’re better at that than actual argument.

        • I can never seem to show my local library enough documents for them to stoop to give me a library card: “Sir… the postmark on this letter is 30 days old!”

          It’s as if they take me for a high-rollin’ rovin’ library book thief! Lucrative scam, eh?

        • What kind of psycho libraries do you guys go to? The last time I was at the library, they actually let me borrow a book using my Grandmother’s card. I didn’t see anyone else presenting id’s either.

      • I would like to point out that Georgia offers free ID’s for people wishing to vote, which eliminates the “fee to vote” scenario. As Ralph said, if voter fraud is done correctly, it is nigh impossible to detect.

      • I understood the rationale of opposing voter ID laws for awhile. And then Obamacare passed and mandated that everyone purchase health care insurance or be subject to a punitive tax. What’s more difficult? Securing insurance or getting a subsidized ID card. Btw, Obamacare contains a regulation giving the government discretion to implement an ID requirement. If that’s ever triggered, the arguments against voter ID go completely out the window.

      • I know of people who have voted illegally and done so very easily and were not caught. Until they are caught, you don’t know there is fraud. It happens A LOT.

        In MA it is actually illegal for you to be asked for id to vote. The secretary of state set the policy and you cannot be asked for ID at all. So stuff it.

      • Requiring an ID to vote is an almost universal requirement in developed countries other than US. It is not discriminatory, so long as the government issues an ID suitable for this purpose for free to everyone upon request and with minimal hindrance.

      • Rare? There have been prosecutions and convictions for vote fraud in four key states in 2012. (Ohio, Minnesota, Virginia and Florida) Obama’s margins of victory in these four states was less the potential fraud. Those who got caught are just the tip of the iceberg. Early voting and same day voting are ripe for the pickings. This is where Obama won both elections. I can tell for a fact that there was a lot multiple voting at the University of Minnesota in 2008. My son could have voted twice in Minnesota even though voted absentee in Virginia. Obama certainly won the election in 2008 but a minimum he lost the real popular vote in 2012 and may have stolen the election.

        • Not to mention 2000 and 2004. But some people don’t want to remember that. And I’m not talking about simply “hanging chads”, either….

      • I have to agree with Jim on this. There’s no reason to believe that voter fraud has suddenly become more common than it used to be. So why restrict one of our foundational freedoms just because some people have a hunch that elections are being stolen?

        Where I disagree with Jim is that I don’t think one has to have racist intent to support voter id and I don’t even think it’s an inherently bad idea, where it needed.

      • I remember reading about some similiar ladies who were working at an OH polling place (if i remember correctly) who admitted to voting multiple times for obummer to national media outlets. Ralph is right as usual ha, the whole point of voter fraud is to never hit the radar.

      • If you’re against voter ID laws, then you should totally be against needing ID for firearm purchases. Elections have arguably killed more people than guns.

    • Yes, JoshinGA, you are absolutely right. For example, I have never shown any sort of ID or any other sort of documentation when voting in any election in NJ. The voter ID map is not only misleading; it’s an outright and outrageous lie.

  5. Why can’t somebody put $2000 in the hand of a THINK PROGRESS! leader and bet them $10,000 (or $50,000) on LIVE TV they can’t buy an AR in one of those red states?

    Yeah, I KNOW the answer. BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNOW THEY’RE LYING. Out their puckered hiney-holes.

  6. In NJ I have never had to produce ID to vote. But to buy a gun, I had to get three references, fingerprinted and a background check.

  7. Um, their map is horribly inaccurate. When I vote, the election volunteers ask to see my driver’s license or voter ID card … and they already have my name on a list … which they cross off manually when I vote.

    That whole process adds all of 15 seconds to my voting routine and eliminates voter fraud — I am totally good with that.

    • In the UK you turn up at your registered polling station and simply state your name and address, then they cross you off the list. No ID required. Welcome to the 17th century.

  8. Their map is wrong. You don’t need an ID to vote in New Mexico. They just ask who you are. I bet that’s true in other states as well.

    Some people say voter ID laws discriminate against poor people. Funny thing though, they have voter ID in Old Mexico where about half the people live below the poverty line.

    The main opposition to voter ID laws is to help vote fraud, which seems to benefit one party in particular.

    • Roadrunner, I voted in NM in 2008 only, but my experience is the same as it generally is here in VA: you tell them your name and your address, and they mark it off the county voter registration list, hand you a colored piece of cardboard, and you’re done.

      Except for the voting part, I meant.

  9. Wait a freakin’ minute here… My buddy and I sauntered into a gun store in North carolina to pick up a fine Marlin .22 rifle (Total p.o.s.) and the guy CLEARLY asked for his ID… I call BS on this BS.


  10. I am in one of those “red” states and had to show ID every single time I purchased a gun and had my info submitted to NICS. They are lying out their backsides. Unless you could buying an AR-15 out of the back of a van as purchasing from a “dealer”

    • This video proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that if you wanted to, you could commit a felony, and still have no significant impact on national elections. Outrageous!

      • It also shows the AG is an f’in lying political hack with an agenda (I know, that’s not news to anyone here). For example take this classic Holder quote from the video: “Solutions that have been proposed…. go to a problem that does not exist.” Oh, you mean like background checks for gun trusts or banning the import of M1 Garand’s Mr Holder?

  11. I never have to show anyone ID to vote in Washington because there’s no one to show ID to. We do all our voting by mail. King County mails me a ballot and I mail it back. I’m on the registered voters’ list but no one can verify that one way or the other.

  12. Fail of a graph.

    In California, I can buy a “assault rifle” without a background check or ID. Its illegal, but other than the penalty of law there is nothing stopping anyone from doing so (barring undercover po-po of course).

    They’re grasping at straws. And failing hard.

      • Mike,

        You are missing the mark yet again. ARs absolutely, positively can be purchased without an ID. Cocaine can also be purchased without an ID. It’s called a black market. You are welcome to look it up if you do not understand the concept.

      • The map is a LIE, Mikey Numbers. If you don’t know that, you don’t know anything. Which is, I suppose, your point.

  13. In the city I live in (in Missouri) I walk in and show my voter notification card (no picture), which has been mailed to me by the county clerk. The poll worker crosses me off the registered voter list. Now, to have fraud, someone has to get a card with my name on it (probably easy to make) and then vote when I have voted already. It would seem to me the poll worker might notice I’ve already voted. If this should happen it would be reported as fraud. Since nothing has been reported (to my knowledge) in Missouri, I would say there is not a voter fraud problem.

  14. In Kansas they like private parties to make up a bill of sale and to refer to some form of identification.

    Such a bill of sale indemnifies each party should the other turn out to be a flake.

    However, it’s entirely optional. Armslist loves us.

  15. This is BS. You can most certainly vote in California (illegally) without ID. You can register and you can vote. There’s no requirement to prove your identity or citizenship in either case in California. In fact, it’s illegal for poll workers to ask you for your ID in California.

    Every single word they say is a lie, including “and” and “the.”

  16. While voter ID is gaining in popularity, most states do NOT have a voter ID requirement, so regardless of the inaccuracy of the first map the second is an outright lie.

  17. This is a BS map, comparing apples to geological rock formations. Whoever wrote this BS should might as well have asked us to alphabetically line up by height. A gun is a material object and is very different from voting. If we were comparing an AR15 to a nail gun, or a bag of fertilizer, powdered aluminum, or a pressure cooker then that would be slightly better than what is currently compared. ID for voting is so you don’t vote in four different states if you live near borders ( such as four corners). Anything can be a weapon or made into a weapon – so to present ID for it is … just silly. Its an idea for people who don’t understand that anything can be a weapon or made into a weapon.

    • It’s a mischaracterization because if I decide I want to sell my AR-15 to someone, whether it’s a buddy of mine or just someone at the local gun show, that does not make me an “unlicensed gun dealer.” It’s a mischaracterization because ThinkProgress is hitting the buzzwords (zomg, unlicensed gun deals online!) and ignoring the reality of the situation, which is that two private citizens are well within their rights to enter into a private transaction for a tangible item without the government’s nose needing to be in it. Selling a rifle to my friend (or a stranger) no more makes me an “unlicensed gun dealer” than selling him a car makes me an “unlicensed car dealer.”

        • Legally they are in two different categories, as they should be since one is doing a one-off sale and the other is dealing.

        • No, mike, I don’t think it’s a little picky, and I’m not just being argumentative. ThinkProgress’s portrayal of the facts is a mischaracterization because it’s not “the whole truth.” They use “unlicensed dealers” because it conjures up images of some guy opening the back of a van to reveal racks and racks of guns, like something in a movie, and saying “Pick out what you want” to any drug dealer or gangbanger or just regular idiot that walks by. They use “online sales” to promulgate the idea that anyone can just hop on the ol’ interweb and order themselves up a Babykiller 9000, shipped straight to their door.

          Neither one of those things are in the slightest bit an accurate portrayal of what goes on, but not only do they push those portrayals (or at least do nothing to discourage them), but they also conveniently leave out the actuality of what happens a whole lot more often, which is some guy that has an extra rifle he doesn’t need walks around the gun show with it slung over his shoulder with a flag in the barrel that says, “Make me an offer.” Someone does, and in many if not most cases the seller requests to see a concealed weapons permit, or at the very least a state ID, and equally as often he fills out a Bill of Sale so that both parties have a record of the transaction.

          Nobody I know or have ever talked to wants to sell a someone a gun that will be used in a crime, and most will go to some length to help ensure that doesn’t happen. But at its core, it’s a private transaction between two private individuals, and the government has no place in it.

        • Matt, the images that the mischaracterization conjures up are completely accurate, as far as they go. Not mentioning that private sales are ALSO to be considered is a bit deceptive, I grant you.

  18. Think Stupid fails yet again, cause you’ll notice that they fail to show states where you need government issued ID to even REGISTER to vote.

  19. Excuse a naive question, but don’t most known cases of voter fraud get found out because the voters are dead? Doesn’t that kind of make the voter ID argument about as asinine as saying more gun laws will keep guns away from criminals?

  20. The idea that voter fraud is not rampant is either ignorant or willfully unlawful. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Obama stole the election in 2012. Statistically, the potential fraud in critical districts and states more than accounted for the margins of victory. The MSM is complicit and simply wont expose the depth of fraud. I am not a tin hatter, normally, but of this I have no doubt.

    • There is doubt regarding the election because the potential for fraud is readily apparent. Simply put, there can be no confidence in the result of an election when polling locations are staffed by elderly retires WHO CANNOT ASK FOR ID. As the YouTube videos clearly demonstrates, very little information is needed to obtain a “certified” ballot.

      I want voter ID because I don’t want my corpse voting for a Democrat. Ever.

  21. This isn’t true. I vote with a mail in ballot. My ballot could easily be intercepted and anyone else could fill it out and mail it back in. No ID required at all.

  22. I don’t want voter ID laws. I like to take all the voter notification cards from my friends who aren’t going to bother to go to the polls and do it for them. I consider it just being a good friend and a model citizen. I know how they would vote, if they’d get off the damn couch, so I just do it for them. I’m making sure their views are represented.

  23. In my MA town, you don’t need ID. Just give the person the name and address and off you go. Now try and buy a firearm (legally) that fast in MA. Just try.

  24. First, any time someone buys something, one is voting. This vote is no less legitimate (and even more effective) than pretending one is taking place in a bureaucracy.

    Second, there’s a difference between an unlicensed dealer and an unlicensed non-dealer.


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