We have a national problem of angry young men, disturbed and fantasizing about inflicting horrific violence upon innocent people. These angry young men often make threats to others before carrying out their massacres, but those whom they threaten rarely feel compelled to report the threats to the police because they don’t think it will make a difference, or they fear they will be targeted for retribution after the police contact the person making the threats. It is hard to blame them; in far too many cases, law enforcement does not take significant action. (I think going to police and filing a complaint is a lot to ask of teenagers.)
Similarly, getting a troubled person committed to a mental institution requires someone who cares enough about the troubled person to take that action, and who knows how to navigate the legal process for this “last resort” in mental health. …
From what we now know about the Uvalde shooter, he seems like a slam-dunk case of demonstrating behavior indicating that he was a threat to others.
But my friend Cam Edwards points out that there’s a flaw in most of the red-flag laws on the books in the 19 states that have them. In just about all of the cases, the court system and police seize the firearms of the troubled individual and then . . . that’s it. There’s no requirement for subsequent counseling or mental-health treatment. The state has taken away that person’s guns and called it a day. That emotionally disturbed or threatening person is still free to attack someone with a kitchen knife or try to run down someone in their car.
As D. J. Jaffe wrote in 2019, “It makes no sense to let people who are known to be seriously mentally ill and believed to be dangerous go without treatment, even if they have had their weapons taken away. It’s not compassionate. And it can be dangerous.”
— Jim Geraghty in What Might Actually Help Stop Mass Shootings
The goal is not to prevent mass shootings. The goal is to disarm you with a minimum amount of fuss. After all, who would argue in favor of crazy people running around with guns?
First they pass a red flag law. Then they declare you insane for having/wanting a gun, and take yours away.
yup, but nobody outside of gun owners believes it, and even many gun owners, mostly Democrat and Independent voters don’t believe it, they can’t imagine anyone being that cunning and dishonest. Trust nobody with freedom, defend your freedom because once it’s gone, well, you will be too shortly after,
According to its roots in racism and genocide…Gun Control Is A Mental Illness.
Yep. You can’t engage the other side on this because they’re disingenuous. They want your guns (for the children) but refuse to secure the schools. California even got rid of a law requiring schools to report credible threats by students. Then they call parents terrorists if they object to teachers grooming their children and sic the FBI on them. They don’t care about children, they care about attaining absolute power. They are evil.
Does anyone on this site even bother to stand for the pledge of allegiance or the national anthem? This country is so far down the shitter that there is nothing left to admire or defend. Molon Labe.
Still do as it only tends to be done when Americans are present and even if I have issues with the Government/County I still support Americans.
*country, yeesh autocowrecked is having fun this week.
if i can hear the song, i’m hand over heart. nana had me snap to attention as a babe watching a shriner parade and when the flags came past i learned what was expected.
plus, this beauty straight gives me goosebumps. i’ll admit- a man can feel conspicuous, but nobody ever says squat. in fact i hope some feel uncomfortable, either way.
been to a fair share hockey games. never seen a knee taken… and ~most~ of the hats come off.
I recently went to a high school graduation. Everyone that I could see stood for the national anthem.
“the pledge of allegiance or the national anthem“
Please remind me, what article in the constitution mentions the Pledge of Allegiance or the national anthem, thanks!
It’s not in the Constitution, but it is in 36 U.S.C. § 301. However, it is a “should” and not a mandate. Beyond that, it is customary to show respect for the country whose anthem is being played.
Minor MINER49er. When are you leaving? If you can’t stand for the National Anthem there is something very wrong with you.
No one is (or should be) ‘required’ to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance or the national anthem. Take that [email protected]$$ shit somewhere you idiot Leftist/fascists hang out – they MIGHT buy it. I despise our government FAR more than you do – because I actually understand what it is, and what it was supposed to be. But even I honor the origins and promise of America . . . and you would, too, if you weren’t a disgusting Leftist/fascist POS.
“They want your guns (for the children) but refuse to secure the schools.”
All a part of their plan, not securing the schools.
They need the images of dead little kids to get the gun bans they want. What we must do is force them to own not securing the schools. Get in front of a video camera
What we also must do is force them to own their closing of the insane asylums. For decades they have insisted that insane people were no more dangerous than anyone else, and for us to insist that was false meant we were the hateful ones.
Make them own their evil policies, and call them evil policies. It’s time to blame them for the dead kids…
That, and protecting their voter base of dead people, illegal aliens, welfare recipients, and morons like MinorIQ and dacian the stupid. They can’t acknowledge reality and still get their moron candidates elected.
This was essentially what first came to my mind reading the headline for this article.
All that is really accomplished with “red flag” laws is to provide government with a chink in the Second Amendment through which they are now allowed to violate the “…shall not be infringed” prohibition.
Once such a chink is implemented who monitors what criteria are allowable before government agents can knock on your door to confiscate your weapons and shoot you dead if you want to argue about it?
IMO these laws almost universally ignore the due process requirement and so far as I know there does not seem to be any penalty for persons filing a false report that triggers the red flag response.
Mentally unstable individuals may present a significant danger to family or community but who is qualified to diagnose their condition or its acuteness sufficient to rescind their right to keep and bear arms? And what is their recourse if that diagnosis is wrong or malicious?
The Second Amendment provides the best answer to this question but seems, as is all too often for the Leftists and Statists, the answer they do not want to consider.
Every citizen has the same Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms for the defense of themself, their family, their community and their country. If they are truly in fear the solution is to exercise their own right, not attempt to take that right away from others.
As for NICS, another chink in the 2A, the ability to check a potential customer’s background for “red flags” is important for anyone dealing in firearms, BUT the government should not be the arbiter of whether or not the sale is consummated (…shall not be infringed). That decision belongs to the retailer.
ON receiving a negative or even questionable response to a NICS the FFL should retain the ability to make the sale or not. If NO SALE they should be legally protected by the possession of the negative report. IF YES, SALE even in the presence of a negative NICS they MUST be able to be held legally liable for criminal use of that weapon if it is traced back to them AND the negative NICS.
Advice should be the limit of NICS reports, never CONSENT. The FFL should have free will and then be required to answer in court for poor decisions.
Didn’t they have this law on the books in Buffalo, NY? Is the media discussing why it did nothing to prevent the supermarket shooting?
No…the media is doing what Miner49er does…obfuscation and redirection to gun control instead of asking the hard questions like 1) Why are people killing others for no reason and 2) are they on any prescribed meds 3) Where are all the jobs 4) Could our failed state be causing people to become mentally unstable 5) Why are so many blacks killing other blacks 6) Why did we send $40 billion to Ukraine and not fortify our schools 7) Why do we have the largest penal colony in the world 8) Why have no one from the TARP bailout been jailed for fraud 9) Why has no one from CDC/big Pharma been jailed for fraud 10) why is Clapper still walking a free man 11) why is Fauci still walking a free man 12) why is Assange still in jail for telling the truth and being prosecuted under espionage act when he is not even a US citizen….oh trust me…it is much more fun to poke the 2A folks and distract the rest of us from the impending doom.
How about we start by removing the dementia patient from the nukes?
How many levels down?
Cammie the hooker
assorted Cabinet secretaries – https://stacker.com/stories/2735/guide-us-presidential-line-succession
Sec of Interior (WTH she is/enviro wacko)
NONE fit to serve as President (and debatable if sane). It’s the Star Wars bar scene as far as the eye can see. You get to #9 (Sec of Ag) for a marginally competent former Gov of Iowa Vilsack.
Obiden is demented AND a serial liar who was NOT elected.
RFPOs just say “we think you’re crazy, so we’re going to steal your stuff, but that’s it”. And if someone was teetering on the brink of doing harm, I would think that this would push them over it. The laws that forced someone into a 3 day psych-eval were taken away because police abused them. So bring them back, but this time have each department maintain an on-call panel of three psychiatrists (not psychologists) to make the determination, and indemnify them.
Let us suppose that your proposal is implemented and funding is provided for Psychological hospital beds is made available. How many people are we as a society going to put in institutions for longer that 3 days?
My back of the envelope math suggests that 1/10 of our present prison/jail population would be better served in a mental hospital. I would also submit that 85% of the persistently homeless are mentally ill enough and/or substance addicted enough that they would benefit from longer stays to receive effective treatment.
The ACLU wackos destroy the US mental system decades ago.
Pshrinks? Bah BS – just more gov funded prog voters..
Most states have a mental health hold law of varying duration. California it is Welfare & Institutions Code section 5150, provides for up to a 3 day hold for evaluation, requires only probable cause, and under separate statutes, results in a five year firearms ban even if there in no subsequent involuntary admission for treatment. Of the few states I am aware of, I believe that Ohio, New York and Virginia have similar laws, with Virginia having the longest possible hold period.
Too much nuance, attention, time and money.
Same reason we can’t have institutions anymore. Cheaper just to let the degenerate zombies walk among us and call it “human rights” and the politicians can still call it a win.
Sometimes I hate it when you are correct to the point I can’t argue your point on any level.
Re-open the insane asylums, and fill them with Leftist Scum ™… 🙂
Waiting for Miner49er to lecture us on the banality of evil…
How should we deal with the problem of Miner being full of shit and spewing it all over this forum?? Hmm, depends.
Recognize that in the end he is a troll, a well researched troll but still will not argue in good faith and may be best ignored (need to do that more)
Yeah…I agree…have to ignore him more but it is not often you see such orgasmic virtue signaling. Miner49er really does think he is God’s gift…in something.
A well-researched troll? How did you come up with that one? Any one can master the art of Googling…
Simple really while he may be arguing out both sides of his mouth Janus style he does at least bother to document some of his assertations cherry picked and statistically irrelevant though they may be for the “see there is one or two examples” in the sea of every other relevant data point that overwhelm the noise he makes. His incidents do tend to exist somewhat in the way he portrays but they really do not represent the broader reality. Frankly I tend to keep track of what he professes to be issues for the what are the worst case things I have to watch out for and move on to actual problems.
‘How should we deal with the problem of Miner being full of shit and spewing it all over this forum?? Hmm, depends.’
Excellent idea! 👍
Someone at his base of operations need to put a Depends(tm) diaper on his head.
This will help contain the [email protected], and prevent him for seeing his keyboard and monitor. A win/win.
Make it a Depends(tm) that’s previously been soiled by the hairsniffer in chief.
“We have a national problem of angry young men, disturbed and fantasizing about inflicting horrific violence upon innocent people. These angry young men often make threats to others before carrying out their massacres“
It seems the author has been reading through the comments here on TTAG.
Hey Miner, welcome to the new page; for a while there I was thinking you’d be stuck forever a couple of posts ago trying to convince everyone that a 5.56 will literally blow little kids to smithereens.
There he is! Miner49er is back!!!
Really Miner49er…did anyone talk to you about making vast incorrect generalizations about people? I am not young and I am disabled too. Unfortunately I am a cisgendered white male (no rainbow colors) so I guess that is a strike against me huh? I fantasize about hanging out with pretty ladies, not violence. I have never made a violent threat to anyone and I roundly oppose violence in any way shape or form. Except if someone were to hurt me or my family I would be forced to respond in kind. But I guess in your little perverted world, I should just call 911 and wait for the police? Like what those kids in Uvalde did as well? The police were right outside chomping on donuts and detaining concerned parents as the sound of pop-pop-pop bullets came from the school building. If just ONE teacher was armed, more lives of children would be saved. Oh but wait…it’s a gun-free zone. Gotta respect that huh?
Again…talk is cheap…what’s your solution??
I await your incorrect, snarky, and logically bereft reply….
‘It seems the author has been reading through the comments here on TTAG.’
Hey whinertard, the school shooter here in Texas sent private messages to people threatening to rape and murder them.
Also identified himself as a school shooter.
He also posted vids on social media of himself holding clear plastic bags of decapitated cats while laughing.
Please enlighten everyone, who here on TTAG is posting similar content?
As usual, your pathetic contribution here is laughable.
You might have to pity Dacian and Miner. Both aging l3ftist revolutionaries who waited for a revolution that never happened. How else were they going to prove their usefulness?
Note I said might.
Much like the 60s thought of “supposed they start a war and nobody came”. But that assumed the other side had a choice in the matter. They did. Military service or the gulag, or worse.
Perhaps yours and dacian the stupids??? MinorIQ, I frequently used to get angry at your idiot comments, until I accepted the fact that you are a brainless, indoctrinated Leftist/fascist idiot. Now, I merely mock you. You Leftist/fascists are responsible for about 90% of the disfunction of our society. Darwin will prevail. Unfortunately, like justice, the wheels of evolution grind slow . . . but they grind exceeding fine. I hope I live long enough to see you and dacian the stupid get yours. I’ll be cheering for Darwin.
Back in the bad old days if a person exhibited the kind of behavior these morons did, they would have been involuntarily committed and treated! But I guess these days it’s so much easier to let the bad sh!t happen then sit there and point fingers!!
But, back in the old days the psychiatric profession wasn’t dominated by leftists who regard dissent as evidence of mental illness. “Let[ting] bad shit happen and then pointing fingers” (convicting and punishing after an actual crime is proven by due process of law) sometimes sucks, but it’s a hell of a lot better than conferring authority over “pre-crime” to most people in a position to wield it in 2022.
Only dissent in one direction.
You can knit your pussy hat, wail in the street, threaten to rape the POTUS’ kid and set fires to protest ethereal concepts and that’s all well, good and healthy.
Suggest maybe that $5/gallon gas isn’t the best thing for the country and you’re a hateful, fascist bigot who needs to be locked up before he kills a million kids.
That’s why I prefaced the dissent statement with “dominated by leftists”. Dissent from the Constitution, reason, the natural law, and basic human decency is sacred in their eyes.
If someone is too dangerous to be walking around on the street with a gun, they are ALSO too dangerous to be walking around on the street, WITHOUT a gun!
Excellent point! By changing the rifle purchase age limit to 21, they’re saying that 18-20 year olds can’t be trusted to make wise choices. At a minimum, that means they can’t be trusted to vote. Why aren’t they talking about that? It’s almost like they’re really just chipping away with a disarmament scheme…
Young naked male apes slaughtering people with an assault rifle because their minds have not yet reached full maturity is a hell of a lot different than making a mistake at the voting both at age 18. And by the way there are plenty of conservative idiots far older than 18 that do the same in the voting booth.
Good to know that you favor removing the voting rights of 18- to 21-year-olds.
More people have, and will continue to die as a result of government policies that cause poverty and despair (and enable nonstop war) compared to the much smaller number of people that die in any shooting from a rifle, much less mass shootings with a rifle. Voting is extremely important. Lives are always at stake.
You’re right. Mass shootings – real ones, the double digit fatalities kind which the media salivate at the prospect of – affect statistically zero percent of the population. Letting too young & immature progressive gentle souls who see only the claimed good intentions of what they vote for without a thought for the costs or consequences of those votes affect orders of magnitude more people – as anyone looking for affordable gas or baby formula at all has seen lately. You argue well for raising the voting age to 25 minimum.
My son would not be alive if he would’ve needed to wait until 21 to purchase his AR.
Make no mistake, you’re a total POS on ALL levels.
No, dacian the stupid, it’s not. One individual, no matter HOW insane, well-equipped, or motivated, has a limited scope of action. A government elected by the idiot likes of you and MinorIQ can kill millions – c.f. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Chavez, Mao Zedong. You are too stupid to breathe – please go die.
“There’s no requirement for subsequent counseling or mental-health treatment.”
Well, yes and no. It depends.
My brother lives in a neighboring town. They had an incident a few years ago where a school teacher called the police one day claiming she had received a phone threat to “shoot up the school” that day. The police responded and the day passed without incident. She claimed to know who the caller was, and pointed the police to a man who lives three states away.
So the police, that very same day, get the other jurisdiction involved in the other state where police there finds out the guy owns firearms so they get a court order to seize the firearms and send the guy for a three day ‘confined in patient’ psych eval. The guy had a family, been married five years and have a four year old son. The guys employer finds out about it the next day and fires the guy. The guy was born and raised in the town where the school and teacher are located, but moved away years ago.
The other jurisdiction getting involved and the psych eval is unknown to the teacher. So the next day, the teacher again calls the police and claims to have seen this guy outside the school that morning and claims to have received another phone call from the man threatening to shoot up the school.
But wait! the cops say… how can that be because the guy is confined in a psych ward at a hospital three states away.
So the cops interrogate the teacher even more. Finally she breaks down. Years ago her and this man had an on-again-off-again intermittent romance that carried on through college. Then the guy got a good job and the company relocated him three states away, she decides to dump him and meets another man and they move in together for a while but then break up.
So she contacts the guy she has accused of making the threat and wants to get back together, and finds out that he is now married. So she starts keeping tabs on the guy over the years, she is very bitter, and has been stalking him on and off over time and shown up at his home, and accosted his wife and threatened to kill her if she doesn’t leave the man. Then one day she decides she is going to come up with her revenge story – that she is going to cause him some trouble and say he threatened to shoot up the school and some way or another his wife will leave him because of this leaving room for her to step in and fill the void.
The mind of a crazy person is very, well, crazy.
So anyway after the cops break her down and get the story, the guy gets released from psych hold, gets his guns back. She is arrested and charged with filing a false report, a misdemeanor, ends up paying a $100.00 fine and is released. But, she gets fired from her teaching position over this.
A year has passed now since she got nailed for doing this and then last week she gets re-hired and is back in the classroom teaching. No psych eval or red flag type law applied to her. My brother told me he saw her shopping for a gun at a gun store.
Red Flag laws are the direct result of three behaviors consistently exhibited by leftist/statist in the US – magical thinking, obsessing over an inanimate object rather than the actions of an individual, and applying a “solution” based on collectivist ideology rather than personal accountability. If they were truly serious about reducing the incidence of mass violence (or negative outcomes of climate change, or underemployment, or failing educational institutions, or ) we’d see solutions based on observable behaviors/actual data from the cause of the problem – you know, by “following the science”. Instead we get agenda driven window dressing (at best) or opportunistic, triumphalist punitive actions against the left’s target du jour. From simple minds with no grounding in non-Marxist history or workaday experience come simplistic solutions that simply fail. Which, for a depressingly large number, is the unstated intent anyway.
My cousin worked in a metal facility, her brother was nutz and drew a gov check for it( prohibited person, hed already done a little time for stabbing a guy). After their mom died he got really flaky, probably living in his moms house didnt help much? She called law enforcement and mental health, and being in the mental health field she knew who to call. The mental health professionals gave him an evaluation and decided he was no threat. Two weeks later he killed his roomate.
Threats, here is the way I look at that, if you threaten me that gives me carte blanc to finish the job right then and there, none of that, ” I’m coming back and blah blah, or Im’a gonna go get my gunm.”
Violence, with the economy collapsing as fast as it is , We ain’t seen nothing yet.
Humans get mean when they get hungry.
Impeach theBiden, it’s going to ruin America, twisted sick fckr.
For all the bad Putin is he loves his mother Russia, seems to me theBiden could give a sht less about the country he is president of. His $$$$ nothing else matters.
Possum I fear you are going to be far more correct than you know on the humans get mean when they get hungry part.
Golly we already have “red flag” laws in most states. The Dims & some republitard scum want America to be a Canaduh. No rights or guns. From their cold dead hand’s…
I dont think they want another Canada, I think they dream of what Hitler would have had had he won the war. Or maybe even beyond, I swear Orwells 1984 is a template.
And to SafeupstateFML
I was looking over a couple fields of wheat the other day, starting to brown but theres not much seed in the head, maybe 60-70 bushel an acre. Other places might be different but it looks like those fields was a bust.
$8 gas, $6 a gallon for milk, $4 loaf of bread, pound of hamburger cost what two rib eyes used to.
Yeah buddy, it’s going to get bad.
They want a China-like system.
“That emotionally disturbed or threatening person is still free to attack someone with a kitchen knife or try to run down someone in their car. ”
Or, go out and get another gun. Those in the hood get them all the time, even if they’re not allowed to. No reason the person who has been red flagged cannot.
Note on the mentally ill…. there’s something wrong with a person who wants to control what everyone else does. And there’s something wrong with a person who thinks they have the right to tell someone a thousand miles away what they can and cannot do, and by the way, if you ignore it, we’ll put you in jail. THAT has to be literally the epitome of mental illness.
Virtually every government employee and virtually every elected official by that assessment is mentally ill because virtually all of them believe it is their God given right to boss other people around.
You are not wrong. The essence of sanity is to first mind your own damn business. The people on this forum who are MOST inclined to tell others what to do – MinorIQ and dacian the stupid – are DEMONSTRABLY the least sane. Malig-Nancy Pelosi. Eric Swallowswell the Fangbanger, Jerry “no nads” Nadler, Adam “I’m a lying douchebag” Schiff, Dianne Feinstein, and our own dear, demented, senile idiot of a “president” are proof positive that Leftism is a mental disease.
“The shooter reportedly boasted about torturing animals”
That should be added to the list to help profile future killers (duh). The Buffalo shooter mutilated a cat with a knife and a hatchet. He also picked it up and slammed it’s head on concrete multiple times before chopping it off.
“other teens actually called him school shooter.”
The kids were smart enough to recognize the threat. Where were the adults? It was the local adults that allowed this to happen. Guns and lawful gun owners are the scapegoats.
Texas law also states that a person commits the felony offense of “terroristic threat” if he “threatens to commit any offense involving violence to any person or property with intent to . . . place any person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury.”
I don’t know about Texas, but around here, the police will say,”*yawn* *bored voice* You’re welcome to make a report. We won’t do anything. You can ask a judge for a protective order.”
Didn’t Buffalo, NY have red flag laws available?
FWIW, animal abuse has been a major sign of dangerous insanity since . . . forever. A majority of serial killers have histories of animal abuse.
Let’s ask dacian the stupid and MinorIQ if they’ve killed any kittens, lately.
The problems with red flag, which are many, laws have been well covered here already.
I wonder if those that think red flag laws are good would be OK for drivers too? Set up an anonymous tip hot line where one could report dangerous drivers by the license plate of their car after which law enfocement would show up with a tow truck to confiscate the car and a hearing set at a later time for the owner on record to sort it out. Lots of people injured and die from bad accidents. I mean even if one life is saved…..
Back to red flag laws. I think there is a more sinister reason for them than what is usually discussed and that is how would the police know that a red flagged person turned in all his firearms? Some day a red flagged person is going to shoot someone after he has had his firearms taked away suposedly and the howls and screams for gun regsitration will be loud in that red flag laws are next to useless without gun resgistration to make sure that the red flagged person turned in all their guns.
You mentioned vehicles. What about medical professionals? What if people see them acting in what is perceived to be an irresponsible or inappropriate manner outside of their profession? How could we risk allowing them to continue to work when they could end up injuring or killing people? Maybe we should take their certification or license until they can prove they won’t unintentionally or intentionally hurt anyone.
Here’s just one silly but illustrative example of the attitude shift among people who might wield that pre-emptive power: In “Star Wars” (1977), Luke Skywalker likens a long shot against the Death Star to “bullseying womp rats” (varmint hunting, like every decent kid grew up doing). In the “Family Guy” parody (2007), C3PO replies “You shoot small animals for fun? That’s the first indicator of a serial killer!”
Empowering idiots who believe that things have “rights” enforceable against humans is one of the worst moves imaginable for POTG.
I used to prairie dog hunt. I thought it was fun. I’d still do it if I lived where I used to.
Used to shoot rats at the city dump too.
So to me south park is wrong on that. It’s the people that play with the dead critters is the ones that’s nutz
Especially dead possums!😮
quote—————–As D. J. Jaffe wrote in 2019, “It makes no sense to let people who are known to be seriously mentally ill and believed to be dangerous go without treatment, even if they have had their weapons taken away. It’s not compassionate. And it can be dangerous.”———————quote
And it is the Republicans that are responsible for a Nation that does not have affordable physical and mental health care.
As a matter of fact under Herr Drumpf and his gangster criminal regime they even tried to repeal the Affordable Care Act that gave children living at home longer periods of health care under their parents plan, did away with pre-existing conditions and did away with corrupt Insurance caps all of which made health care totally not affordable to millions of Americans and the gangster criminal Republicans wanted to turn back the clock because they were getting millions in payola from the criminal Insurance Companies and the criminal Drug Companies.
If Republicans wanted to help end mass shootings they would have passed a bill long ago to make mental health care affordable but they have been blocking health care reform all the way back to when Ted Kennedy fought like hell to get something passed.
The Unaffordable Care Act was designed to fail, an attempt to groom Americans into accepting single-payer. It’s insidious, counterproductive, and needs to go.
It wasn’t the Republicans who closed the insane asylums.
The left are the ones who filed law suites that closed state mental institutions around here and probably ever where. When that happened everyone in the institution was turned out on the streets and many had no place to go. That was the start of the homeless hordes.
If you pay close attention to what democrats (communist party USA) say and what they actually do you will realize that it all is intended to move toward their goal of overthrowing the Constitution and destroy America.
Be prepared !!!
Obama’s generation was taught by commies in elite institutions to hate and ruin America. The older generation, like Pelosi and the Puppet, are so selfish, they’re willing to go along with anything as long as they stay in power.
(early 1980s) “…political science students at Columbia were taught a detailed plan designed by two former Columbia professors named Cloward & Piven to bring down the system, destroy capitalism, and turn America into a So-Shall-List state.”
“The plan was revolting, but brilliant. Cloward & Piven taught that America could only be destroyed from within. Only by overwhelming the system with debt, welfare, and entitlements could capitalism and the America economy be destroyed. So the plan was to make a majority of Americans dependent on welfare, food stamps, disability, unemployment, and entitlements of all kinds. Then, under the weight of the debt, the system would implode and the economy collapse, bankrupting business owners (i.e. conservative donors). Americans would be brought to their knees, begging for big government to save them. Voila – you’d have a new system- So-Shall-ism!”
I have to say so-shall-list because [shall not be spoken] is a bad word that sends the comment to moderation hell.
quote————–Only by overwhelming the system with debt, welfare, and entitlements could capitalism and the America economy be destroyed.———–quote
Laughable Republican propaganda and bold face lies. Republicans steal billions of the working mans tax dollars to give to C.E.O.’s and Corporations in the form of Corporate Subsides (Corporate Welfare) which dwarfs the amount of money given to needy people.
quote—————So the plan was to make a majority of Americans dependent on welfare, food stamps, disability, unemployment, and entitlements of all kinds———-quote
What lies, what bullshit. Welfare increased because for the last 50 years the workingman’s wages have stagnated because Republicans like Reagan broke Unions and their high paying jobs because corporate America shipped all the manufacturing jobs overseas and then used foreign slave labor that also had corporate subsidies (free shipping) that undersold American made manufactured goods. U.S. workers were paid so little and had zero benefits that they actually qualified for welfare even though many held as many as 3 part time minimum wage shit jobs.
Woe to they who call propaganda truth, and truth propaganda.
LOL who said anything about Republicans not being complicit? The mindless partisan sheep always just revert to partisanship. Thinking people are interested in the truth. Are you saying Cloward & Piven are a figment of someone’s imagination? Are you saying this plan doesn’t exist or wasn’t taught? Let’s see your source. Your a$$ doesn’t count.
quote————Are you saying Cloward & Piven are a figment of someone’s imagination?———quote
Dud Brain you are an absolute brainwashed Moron. You are quoting Wayne Root a Far Right Radical that lied and distorted the history of Cloward & Piven. Both men were decades ahead of their time including advocating a guaranteed income. Something actually put into play in some European countries.
But I am getting ahead of myself. Here is both men’s original plans devoid of your right wing lies and propaganda
Cloward and Piven were both professors at the Columbia University School of Social Work. The strategy was outlined in a May 1966 article in the liberal magazine The Nation titled “The Weight of the Poor: A Strategy to End Poverty”.
The two stated that many Americans who were eligible for welfare were not receiving benefits, and that a welfare enrollment drive would strain local budgets, precipitating a crisis at the state and local levels that would be a wake-up call for the federal government, particularly the Democratic Party. There would also be side consequences of this strategy, according to Cloward and Piven. These would include: easing the plight of the poor in the short-term (through their participation in the welfare system); shoring up support for the national Democratic Party-then splintered by pluralistic interests (through its cultivation of poor and minority constituencies by implementing a national “solution” to poverty); and relieving local governments of the financially and politically onerous burdens of public welfare (through a national “solution” to poverty).
There is much more to the story which of course you will never read because you only believe far right lies and propaganda not historical truths. If you ever attended college like you claim you flunked critical thinking that is obvious. I personally do not believe you ever spent even a day in college.
And yes educated people are all “laughing out loud” after reading your post quoting Root.
How did I know you were going to quote wikipedia? Why not go to the source? They wrote the paper in The Nation (linked below). There were also subsequent articles and conferences.
“Dr. Cloward’s paper for the So-shall-ist Scholars opened with a call for a systematic strategy of “irregular and disruptive tactics” among the poor, urging them to overburden city and state governments with their “demand,,” as a means of forcing these governments to turn to the federal government for more and more funds.”
“The prospects delighted Prof. William Ryan, formerly of Harvard now of Yale, who described himself to the audience as “a radical without portfolio.” He said, “I have been enchanted with the Cloward strategy of blowing a fuse in the welfare agencies, housing developments, and among unmarried mothers. I wonder what would happen if there was a really systematic overload.”
Dr. Frances Piven of Columbia replied from the dais: “I really only want to make one point-the disruption of the system. Welfare rolls will begin to go up; welfare payments will begin to go up-the impact will be very, very sharp. The mounting welfare budget will increase taxes, force cities to turn to the federal government. We have to help people to make claims; for this they will organize and act.”
https://www.trevorloudon.com/2010/06/1966-cloward-piven-strategy-unveiled-at-SO-SHALL-IST-scholars-conference/ Note: link modified to pass moderation
Here’s the original article. It literally calls for overwhelming the system in order to force so-shall-ism. We can argue about whether or not so-shall-ism is the best strategy to help people, but that’s an entirely different conversation.
“In order to generate a crisis, the poor must obtain benefits which they have forfeited.”
“By crisis, we mean a publicly visible disruption in some institutional sphere. Crisis can occur spontaneously (e.g., riots) or as the intended result of tactics of demonstration and protest which either generate institutional disruption or bring unrecognized disruption to public attention.”
“Advocacy must be supplemented by organized demonstrations to create a climate of militancy”
“We tend to overlook the force of crisis in precipitating legislative reform, partly because we lack a theoretical framework by which to understand the impact of major disruptions”
to Dud Brain
European studies proved a guaranteed annual income did not result in causing people to quit their low paying jobs, it only supplemented their income.
to Dud Brain
Both Professors were correct. The States were not able to adequately fund welfare programs. Most States could not even adequately fund highway repair.
to Dud Brain
True Christians are not greed mongers and selfish because they support the sharing of wealth and making the super rich pay their fair share of taxes to support such programs as welfare and a guaranteed annual income.
There’s nothing magic about federal revenue, which comes from taxpayers living in states (unless you think that a significant percentage comes from the District of Politicians and Welfare Parasites – excuse the redundancy!).
Just like “stimulus”, federal funding of state programs (or state funding for municipal programs) only helps local politicians evade responsibility for their own choices. All funding decisions should be made at the lowest relevant level.
“All funding decisions should be made at the lowest relevant level.”
Yes, but the idea was to end up with a So-shall-list country. There kind of is something magical about the federal budget that sets it apart from the states. The fed can just print money and go into never ending debt. States and localities have to figure out how to at least somewhat live within their means. Or they just ask for more magical federal money…
Did you forget what the original conversation about? Hint: it wasn’t a debate on the pros and cons of so-shall-ism. Apology accepted.
My comment may have shown up as a response to yours, but I was arguing against Douchian (and so-shall-ism). That said, states can and do borrow money; it’s just (as you said) so much lower-risk to ask for “federal” money (taxed from state residents).
to Dud Brain
Did you forget what the original conversation about?———-quote
The original conversation was about you quoting Wayne Root, a lying Far Right Nut Case that lied and totally distorted everything both Professors stated which historically turned out to be correct.
Yes both professors were both correct, the States could not afford to fund adequate welfare money that is why the Federal Government had to step in with such programs.
Yes the professors promoting a guaranteed income DID NOT cause people to quit jobs because they are living in the poverty of low wages and they use the Federal money to supplement their income to pay bills and buy consumer goods which stimulated the economy. European programs proved the benefits of it beyond all doubt. It worked.
To bad Dud Brain that you do not study what has been going on in the REAL WORLD since the professors put forth their views.
Wow, you fail at reading comprehension. The conversation was about intentionally overwhelming the system to bring about something new that starts with an S and rhymes with ocial_ism. Go back to my first comment, and try to fail less.
Wayne Root said they spent a lot of time studying this plan. You can choose to believe that or not, but you never offered an opposing view from another student or teacher from that time period. As I showed, the plan existed whether his class studied it or not.
to Dud Brain
Again it is you who failed reading comprehension big time as well as the history of Socialism.
Welfare is Socialism you Moron whether it comes from local. state or Federal taxes.
The professors wanted it to happen more quickly than it actually did, but happen it did, only over a slightly longer period of time as the poor became better educated as to their rightful benefits under local, state, and Federal welfare plans which by the way continued to expand both on the state and Federal levels.
There is nothing mysterious or nefarious over what happened in regards to the U.S. history of welfare (which you flunked big time). Just because you suffer from Socialist paranoia does not mean it bothers sane people.
Most of the ideas put forth by Marx and Engels are now part of all the industrialized nations welfare programs including Capitalvania. Get over it because its been with us for over 140 years
dacian, the Dunderhead, you are 100% correct. But can you tell me where in the Constitution it provides for welfare paid for by the Federal Government? I am at a loss to find it anywhere?
I got a Stevens 22 bolt action single shot with no back sight , three bullets I found in the bottom of a washing machine, and a some string.
quote—————-The left are the ones who filed law suites that closed state mental institutions around here and probably ever where. When that happened everyone in the institution was turned out on the streets and many had no place to go. That was the start of the homeless hordes.————–quote
Bod face lie.
One month before Jimmy Carter left office he signed a new mental health bill which Reagan and the Criminal Republicans ignored and then trashed. Reagan the gangster criminal in order to save tax money closed mental health institutions and they funneled those patients that could pay into private institutions (run by his criminal friends) who were paid “by the head” and had no intention of helping patients only bankrupting them. Those that could not pay were tossed out onto the streets. Crime soared as a result.
Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness
Cool, dacian the demented idiot . . . now do SCOTUS and the ACLU, and the SCOTUS decision that prevented involuntary institutionalization (pro tip: the Warren court was arguably the most leftist/fascist SCOTUS in our history). You are simply too stupid to insult. Go rejoin your Loser Club daily circle jerk.
To the LAMP THAT WENT OUT IN HIS HEAD
Five members of Beverly Enterprises’ board of directors had ties to Governor Reagan; the chairman was vice chairman of a Reagan fundraising dinner, and “four others were either politically active in one or both of the Reagan [gubernatorial] campaigns and/or contributed large or undisclosed sums of money to the campaign.” Financial ties between the governor, who was emptying state hospitals, and business persons who were profiting from the process would also soon become apparent in other states.
So, you are unfamiliar with the ACLU lawsuits, and SCOTUS decisions, making it virtually impossible to institutionalize mentally-disturbed people?? Why am I not surprised?? Nice try, d***wad, but no cigar. We have SCOTUS and the ACLU to thank for our present disfunctional and dangerous “mental health” system AND our homeless crisis. But you just keep blowing smoke up your own @$$, and pretending it’s all the “EEVVILLL Republicans”, and we’ll all point at you and laugh. Go micturate up a cable, dacian the stupid.
dacian, the Dunderhead, So what? You have your George Soros, don’t you? BFD!
Another Leftist-Socialist poppycock piece of nonsense from Solon. It seems the Federal Government had nothing to do with the shutting of state mental hospitals. YOu see, a state mental hospital had nothing to do with the Federal government.
And just for your edification, Jimmy Carter should have been committed to a mental institution. It’s a good thing that you can’t be committed to a state mental hospital. They don’t exist anymore.
Just in yet still another mass shooting
At least four people were killed yesterday in a shooting on a hospital campus in Tulsa, Oklahoma, police said. “It was just madness inside, with hundreds of rooms and hundreds of people trying to get out of the building,” Tulsa police Capt. Richard Meulenberg said. Officials are still working to identify the motive of the shooter, who authorities believe died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. This comes as the US grapples with a series of mass shootings that have left communities across the country grieving. Less than three weeks ago, 10 people were killed in a racially motivated shooting at a supermarket in Buffalo, New York. Last week, an 18-year-old opened fire at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, killing 19 children and two teachers. The embattled Uvalde school police chief who led the flawed law enforcement response spoke exclusively to CNN yesterday after remaining out of the public eye for a week but declined to answer substantive questions about the massacre.
Funny how is stopped ‘trending’ on Twitter as soon as the discripton of the shooter came out. 🤔
Almost as if it didn’t fit a ‘narrative’.
Imagine if one CCW holder had been on-site to stop the “pools of blood and carnage.”
And I always thought that “pools of blood” were part of “carnage,” not a separate phenomenon.
Oh wait — we’re using the phrase “naked ape” this week; I forgot to update my syllabus.
dacian, the Dunderhead. I see you are still blaming guns for the violence? Tell me when did a gun ever kill or wound anyone other than Alec Baldwin’s gun?
dacian, the Dunderhead, And those murders were done by a VIOLENT PERSON. Not by a gun. A gun is still an inanimate object. At least last I heard.
The Isla Vista murderer had been in mental treatment for many years. The psychiatrists determined that he was no danger to himself or others.
About four months before his killing rampage, his parents contacted police because they were alarmed by his behavior and YouTube videos that he’d posted. Sheriff’s deputies visited him and determined that he did not meet the criteria for an involuntary mental health commitment, probably because they were too busy with their donuts to do what was necessary.
On the evening of May 23, the 22-year-old savage killed six people and injured fourteen others by gunshot, stabbing and ramming with his car.
Red flag laws are bvllshit. Psychiatrists don’t know a damn thing — have you ever known one who wasn’t nuts — and cops are too lazy to make red flag laws work fairly and properly. The truly crazy get a reassuring pat on the back. Everyone else gets their guns stolen.
Psychiatrist dont know a damned thing.
some are pretty good, most just go buy what’s in the book.
Stories I got.
Bulliten chalk board, off to the side in a hallway, wiped clean with the words “The Way They Treat Mental Illness Is Insane.”
written with a wetted piece of chalk( now who would done that?) , a nut girl bouncing off the walls of a rubber room, because their going by the book, I made a suggestion, the physc listened, a week later she was socializing with peers.
I’m sick, take my temperature, and cant walk over to the recreation center to play water volleyball ball, ( its snowing) . ” We cant authorize that, you’ll have to go over there and get permission not to participate.”
I am intrigued. Are you an inmate at an institution?
Yes I live in theBiden’s America.
Possum FTW! 👍🤣
quote——————- Psychiatrists don’t know a damn thing — have you ever known one who wasn’t nuts ———quote
Obviously you know nothing about psychiatrists nor have you ever been to one despite badly needing to do so.
dacian, the Dunderhead, OBVIOUSLY, he knows far more about psychiatrists than you do. It seems there are psychiatrists recommending the release of the man who tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan.
Walter your ignorant post just proved what I previously posted i.e. you know nothing about mental illness.
dacian the stupid,
“you know nothing about mental illness”
AYFKMRN??? We get to observe you and MinorIQ on the daily, so we get daily exposure to EXTREME mental illness and/or retardation. But thanks for playing. To bad you don’t have an education, dacian the stupid.
dacian, the Dunderhead, I am more than sure you are mentally ill. It is a good thing that when you go out to buy a gun, the NICs system does not have mentally ill people listed. Are you still working on that answer to the firing sequence of a cartridge?
Removing guns from a nut is portrayed as removing his magic killing key. Why wouldn’t he buy a street gun? Why wouldn’t he rent a truck like France Nice attack (86 killed 468 injured)? Why wouldn’t he buy a can of gas like Japanese Koyoto 33 dead? I believe that portraying guns as magic is key to the lie. I do also believe that the murderers partly believe the lie and seek to emulate a Hollywood fantasy revenge glory scene with double crossed mg belts and bandannas. But I believe if they were crazy angry before you take their guns they are not calm and happy after.
Why wouldn’t he piss in bleach and stick the bottle inside a building’s central heat&air?
Susan Collins supports “yellow flag” confiscations.
Keep up the pressure on the R’s, all!
He was living with his Grandmother?
Doesn’t that say it all?
He wasn’t an orphan!
The Grandfather was a very detached from his grandson according to his own words in an interview I watched
The solution is to force people into mental health treatment. You don’t have a right when you lose your mind to walk around urinating and defecating in public. Using drugs in public. I know the Libertarians Liberals on the Left believe that you have such a right. And that is a debate we’re going to have to have in this country.
The Three L’s are going to have to explain why you cannot force a sick person into mental health treatment??? We used to lock the mentally ill up into treatment. And we did not have mass shootings in the United States. They were extremely rare. The first being the Texas Tower shooter. And he was mentally ill.
In Los Angeles California the rise in burglaries and robberies are being conducted by organized street gangs. But the rise in physical assaults, stabbings, and fighting. Those are being done by the huge number of mentally ill people there. The same is happening in Seattle.
In his suicide note/manifesto, the Texas A&M shooter straight up asked for his brain to be cut up to find out what the hell was wrong with him.
When my son talked about Columbine the next day, rumors flew. The police were called, he was expelled and I was told the school board was considering alternative school. I was ordered to pay for physiological help all summer, then they changed their mind and I was out the money. Today my son has a high security clearance with the air force, and works on government cyber security. The younger boy who turned him? Well lets just say he probably disappointed his parents. It was an extremely negative event to us, and was massively screwed up by the HS. It changed my son’s life in negative ways too.
Hilarious to watch Biden’s national address on guns this evening and not one word out of him about spending the money to secure schools. Apparently sending 40 billion to Ukraine for weapons is no problem, but spending 40 billion to harden schools against intruders is a legislative bridge too far. Fucking unbelievable. I say that as a Democrat too. Nothing he proposed tonight will make any difference for years, if ever.
The real goal is to disarm the public under the guise of “public safety” so the government can impose its will on the people with impunity. Trust the Founding Fathers. We have a Second Amendment for a very, very good reason. And remember, it a RIGHT not a privilege.
Sorry, but the reason we should give respect to the national anthem or pledge is even stronger when we are not forced to do so. Look at Nazi Germany and the Olympics – all Germans in lock step. They were forced to do so. We are free and do not have to do it, we show our respect by doing so without being forced.
There are reasons that people won’t do so, and many of them are religious beliefs. I have to respect that.
From the linked article
“Texas law does not require the reporting of emergency mental-health detentions, admissions or warrants, or voluntary commitments to NICS. (That might be a useful change to the law, but had that change been in place, that would not have prevented this massacre.)”
No, you don’t want to change that. We have a huge problem in PA with state police treating voluntary commitments and even simple evaluations as prohibiting. In every case I am aware of the people involved had some encounter with law enforcement and the mental health system in their youth. They then grew up to be normal well adjusted adults with careers and families. They wind up being persecuted by state police and prosecutors and end up with 1 or 2 completely inappropriate felony convictions, when they were never a danger to anyone and should not be prohibited even according to the actual law.
again from the article
“Our old friend David French notes that “in every one of the deadliest school shootings, the shooter exhibited behavior before the shooting that could have triggered a well-drafted red flag law.” ”
The Buffalo NY shooter had threatened to commit a mass shooting at his high school a year before the Buffalo shooting. He was investigated by police. New York has a red flag law and he could have been made a prohibited person if it had been applied. The police who investigated him for threatening to shoot up his school did not red flag him.
On the other hand, in California, we see red flag laws being in as weapons in divorces and against co workers and neighbors who have a dispute.
So what we see with actual red flag laws is that they are not used for the claimed purpose and are abused to make owning guns in a state with a law a more dangerous affair.