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The fallout surrounding the shooting death of Trayvon Martin continues apace, with protestors judging the shooting a homicide rather a defensive gun use. The teen’s death has become a cause celebre. “A host of celebrities — including filmmaker Spike Lee, music mogul Russell Simmons and actress Gabrielle Union — are joining an ever-growing chorus calling for justice in the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin in Sanford,” reports, somehow forgetting to mention Al Sharpton’s support . . .

The stars have used Twitter to spread word of Trayvon’s death, and some celebrities are bringing attention to a petition on calling for charges against shooter George Zimmerman. By lunchtime Tuesday, that petition garnered more than 557,000 signatures.

Yes, well, the offers a salient fact that puts the shooting in a new light:

The handgun that killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black 17-year-old, was fired once — not twice — by a neighborhood crime watch volunteer . . .

Police found a single shell casing at the scene, and when they seized George Zimmerman’s handgun, a Kel Tel [sic] 9 mm, its magazine was full, according to a source close to the investigation. The only bullet missing was the one in the chamber, the source said.

For readers unfamiliar with the way of the gun, a full magazine would indicate that Zimmerman kept an “extra” bullet in the Kel Tec’s chamber.

In other words, Zimmerman loaded the gun, racked the slide to put a round in the chamber (reducing the number of bullets in the magazine by one), removed the magazine, put another round in the magazine, then replaced the magazine in the gun. If Zimmerman had fired two shots, the magazine would have one less cartridge/bullet than its full capacity.

That contradicts the graphic interpretation that lawyers for the victim’s family made Friday night after listening to 911 calls from neighbors who heard or saw a fight between Zimmerman and Trayvon.

Lawyers Natalie Jackson and Benjamin Crump insisted then that they could hear two shots on one 911 call, a warning shot and a kill shot, and that that proved Zimmerman was a murderer.

“You hear a shot, a clear shot then you hear a 17-year-old boy begging for his life then you hear a second shot,” Jackson said.

Them’s what you call inflammatory remarks right there. No surprise, there. As usual, the ambulance chasers and professional agitators are working an all-too-sympathetic media to promote their own “self-defense” agenda. The idea that “something must be done” to protect people from themselves and each other.

Personal responsibility is only an issue when it suits their agenda. Otherwise and anyway, government intervention is the order of the day. To wit:

Trayvon’s mother, Sybrina Fulton, appeared Monday on NBC’s “Today” show and said her son was mild mannered, never got agitated and was followed by Zimmerman because of “the color of his skin.”

“I just don’t understand why the situation got out of control,” she said.

Sanford officials had hoped to sit down Tuesday with an official of the U.S. Department of Justice, an agency with a civil rights division and a record of taking on race-charged criminal cases.

The fact that the mainstream media allows race-motivated players to control the spin surrounding this tragic event is as regrettable as it is expectable. But one way or another, the truth will out. Martin’s autopsy will tell the tale. Or at least part of it.

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    • Full mag +1 in the chamber would leave one in the chamber and the mag one round short after being fired once.

        • It doesnt seem to be a good explanation. The only way he could have a full magazine, and fired only one shot, was if the gun jammed.

        • Matt is correct.

          If Zimmerman began with a full mag plus one in the chamber to begin with (7+1)…then fires a round, the gun should normally cycle the top round in the magazine into the chamber resulting in:
          * 1 round fired (case on ground)
          * 1 round in chamber
          * 6 rounds remaining in the 7-round magazine

          However, the report states that there was:
          * 1 case on the ground
          * empty chamber
          * 7 rounds in the 7-round magazine

          This would be a malfunction of the firearm which could be attributed to things such as:
          * magazine not fully seated
          * limp-wristing the gun when firing
          * interrupting the slide’s full movement during firing
          * faulty magazine
          * Zimmerman having time after firing the shot to remove the round from the chamber and place it back into the top of the magazine, then put the magazine back into the gun with an empty chamber
          * the gun having it’s own personal will to stay at the New York maximum 😉

          I’m estimating one of the first three is more common.

  1. People have started asking me about this case. It is a little ridiculous how much media attention it has gotten and how quickly people are convicting Zimmerman in their opinions.

  2. So despite not knowing the outcome of the investigation or physical evidence, everyone is rushing to judgement. It also seems there are no reliable witnesses as there is a good amount if bias contrary to the physical evidence. The fact that they state the magazine was full would likely mean a struggle as the slide failed to cycle.

  3. It has nothing to do with justice, everything to do with race. Just like always. These “celebrities” and their guilt-ridden petitioners don’t have all the facts, don’t care about what’s right, only care about “their own” no matter what the truth is.

    Why not judge those judging Zimmerman? Call them out on their knee-jerk venom, cite them as the fools they are, take them to task for not gathering all the facts before speaking their worthless minds. Spike Lee, for one, is more of a racist than most people are ever even capable of being.

  4. Let this incident and the high powered media reaction in favor of the teen stand as another outcome we who carry could face after a defensive gun use.Should the triers of the facts find Zimmerman innocent,he’s still going to have to live with the consequences of the media fallout long after the no-bill comes down.

    • What if it turns out he was in the wrong? Kid was an honor student. No rap sheet. On bluetooth talking to his girlfriend, freaking out about being followed by a “weird guy’.
      Now he’s dead. Sanford Police didn’t do a thorough job… dead kid deserved at least that.

  5. I would not get too hung up on the exact words in the Boston Herald story. Likely the reporter is not a gun expert (probably a gun-control advocate). So you can not depend on his knowledge of guns being adequate for him to give an accurate description of the condition of the gun.

    • That’s part of the point though; it’s the job of the print media to be trustworthy. That means fact checking, which given the bad technical explanation was certainly not done to the degree it should have been.

  6. The fact that Zimmerman left his vehicle and went after the kid when he was told not to doesn’t really look that good. I’m a CCW holder myself and, on the surface, it sounds like this was completely avoidable. At least he did the smart thing by not saying anything, so far, anyway.

    • That is the main reason this is spinning out of control. 911 operator told him not to contact the kid, but he did so anyway. He’s an idiot, and brought this all on himself. The media flurry after the fact and all of the race baiting is just as bad, but could have all been prevented had he just been a good witness, providing the kid wasn’t in the act of harming someone, which he wasn’t.

      • “He’s an idiot, and brought this all on himself.”

        True and it also reflects poorly on the pro-RKBA community while feeding gun-control ammo to the loonies.

  7. The whole thing is tragic. Why the hell would Zimmerman choose to initiate contact? If this turns out to be the case then Zimmerman should be held fully accountable for this boys death. If indeed he followed the boy, against the instructions of officials then he has no leg to stand on in terms of self defense.

    • I need to check FL law . . .

      Generally speaking, a person who is defending themselves can use a slightly higher level of force than the one being used against them—provided it’s a purely defensive situation (i.e. they didn’t start the confrontation in the first place).

      Legally, you’re not allowed to re-engage the aggressor AFTER the initial confrontation is over. You can start as a defender and end up being an aggressor. Or vice versa.

      It’s all pretty confusing—especially as the court has to rely on unreliable witnesses and the testimony of the participants (in this case the survivor). Which is why it all comes down to the “reasonable person” test as interpreted by a jury.

      • The big problem is what we mean by “reasonable”. I really, really wanted to give Mr. Zimmerman a chance here, but every fact that I’ve dug up about this case (mentally dismissing any bias that was injected after the fact) indicates that Zimmerman followed a very poor set of decisions.
        Its now also been confirmed the kid was on the phone during the following, just before the violence. Person on phone with him claims he was scared because he knew he was being followed by a “weird guy”. You could say the kid was practicing defense… he didn’t know who Zimmerman was. I keep putting myself in both folks shoes.. If I’d been the kid, I’d have been pretty damn unnerved and on edge. If I’d been Zimmerman… well, its just very hard to think like him because I NEVER would have been following the kid.
        Hell, alot of folks who DGU in their own home get more initial police scrutiny than Zimmerman did. They didn’t even do a blood screen on him…

  8. Maybe Zimmerman was wrong – and, on the surface, it certainly appears that he was – but, a court will decide that, eventually. What is being left out in all the accounts, though, is what exactly was Treyvon doing that caught the eye of a neighborhood watch patrol. Likely, he wasn’t just walking down the street, minding his own business.

    As a resident of a Detroit suburb, I feel both compelled and qualified to say:
    If blacks didn’t commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime, to the point that the mere presence of an African-American in any situation outside of a controlled environment causes alarm, then this whole episode might never have taken place.

    Statistics abound regarding the high rates of black crime. I’ll leave it to you to look them up. Suffice it to say that for 13% of the total population, they sure do keep themselves (and our court systems) busy.

    • As someone who lives in Cleveland I would have to agree with you, James. I will point out that the East side of Cleveland is a crime ridden hole. I will point out that the West side is a fairly nice place to live. Need I mention that the East side is largly black and the West side largely White and Hispanic and all kinds of Asian? No, but the PC folk will call us racist (as seen in a post earlier this week) based on our facts, stats and lives lived in these areas.

      I receive a crime report every month from the Cleveland PD and the ‘zones’ they have laid out in districts are interesting to watch. You can literally point out where the East side becomes the neutral downtown area (which ironically has less crime than the East side) and where it becomes the West side. Just looking at the number of murders, rapes and break ins you can tell what part of Cleveland you are looking at. I will try and post it to Mr. Farago and have him put it up for all to see.

      And as I posted earlier this week. I am a man married to an East Indian woman who recently just left the all black church (except for me and my wife and kid) we had attended for 3 years.

    • He was walking back from a store with Skittles for his little brother and an Arizona Iced Tea during the NBA All-Star halftime… He was also on the phone (bluetooth) with his girlfriend (both confirmed). His suspicious behavior was probably him walking around while talking on his bluetooth. I usually go with Occam’s Razor when piecing together past events.
      The fact that you are putting the burden of proof on the victim and assuming that he “wasn’t just minding his own business” is unfair, and exactly the mind-set that most people define as prejudice. Kid died unarmed with a bag of Skittles… he deserves at least the benefit of the doubt, even if you do live in Detroit.

      • “The fact that you are putting the burden of proof on the victim and assuming that he “wasn’t just minding his own business” is unfair, and exactly the mind-set that most people define as prejudice. Kid died unarmed with a bag of Skittles… he deserves at least the benefit of the doubt, even if you do live in Detroit.”

        I don’t know who is doing the burden of proof thing. Seems a fairly reasonable thread so far. What are you talking about? We don’t have any evidence so far this way or that as far as I can see or from what the media has fed me. And I would like to point out that you clearly don’t live in Detroit.

        People on here like to talk about situational awareness and surroundings and whatnot yet when it isn’t PC you stick your heads up your behinds. In my city if you choose to act the PC way you will end up dead on the street for $5 in your pocket in the wrong neighborhood AND the preps are very likely to be black. Get over it. These are facts, these are stats, this is life in Cleveland. Look it up.

        • Read the earlier comment by James where he automatically says the kid must’ve been doing something wrong to get Zimmerman’s attention… right.

  9. Assuming the PD turned the case over to the SA promptly, without being beaten over the head first, the furor seems curious. If the turn-over was only after publicity, a mistake was made. Who knows, though? Maybe we’ll find there was evidence Trayvon dragged George out of his car and into the backyards? My reaction to the facts and 911’s is that I do not expect there are many more facts to come out, other than the background of George and Trayvon. I am disgusted, though, that the principle (and statute) allowing “stand your ground” has been perverted by Sanford to the notion that you can get in someone’s face avoidably, but then rely on SYG. If that sort of analysis continues it will lead to the end of SYG laws. I couldn’t care less about the parties involved or the typical New Black Pathers/Holder involvement. They’ve been paired up since the Philadelphia polling-place intimidation. I care about the SYG laws, and therefore resent the abuse of those provisions.

  10. Wouldn’t you expect other members of the “neighborhood watch” to come out of the woodwork to stick up for their “captain?” Or could it be that there are no other members because Zimmerman was basically a self-appointed “watch captain?” (and if that’s the case, why stop at “captain?” Hell, might as well call yourself the Neighborhood Watch Colonel, or General, or Admiral, or Field Marshal.)

  11. Incredible that some folks will stand behind this guy just because he has a CCW. I’ll bet a year’s salary this guy is behind bars for decades.

    • I don’t care that he has a CCW ( I know enough idiots with one to know better). I also think there is too little information right now to judge him this way or that. Time and the courts will tell.

  12. I don’t know any of the specifics and I’m not convicting this guy prematurely. The 911 operator asking Zimmerman if he was following this kid, Zimmerman says yes, then the 911 operator advises him to stop….well, that’s not good.

  13. From the get-go, this has sounded to me like a bad shoot. A very bad shoot. I’m also disappointed with many of the writers and commenters on this site for apparently siding with Zimmerman since he was the one with the gun. I happen to agree with many of the folks who say this was a racially-motivated killing and that the lack of charges thus far is due to racist policy by this particular PD. If you disagree, that’s fine, but don’t complain about people shouting “RACISM” and then say that since black people commit more crimes that they have it coming to them, you’ll just make gun owners look bad.

    • The reason we should be upset about the noise the media is making, is that the it makes it extremely difficult for Zimmerman to get a fair trial. I don’t think RF or most of the commentators here are taking Zimmerman’s side just ’cause he was the one with the gun.

      • The thing is, the police had stopped looking into this matter… the only thing that got the ball rolling again was all the people who got angry and started shouting racism… The PD took Zimmerman at his word.. and that was it. Kid is dead, justified defense, nothing to see here folks… The family had to get a lawyer and build up a media circus to see anything done.. Its sad, but the police didn’t even do a blood screen on the shooter.

        • That’s what I read too, Josh. Looks like a major fail on the PDs behalf. If anything the family has a case against the PD for sure.

      • We should be mad that an innocent 17 year old with no prior history of criminal activity didnt get a “fair trial”. His life was taken by some mall ninja wannabe and hasnt spent one day in lockup. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought you could only use self defense at trial, not to avoid arrest when the motive is questionable.

        • I think normally it’s bad form to quote yourself, but I’m just that awesome, so I can get away with it. From this post:

          “The burden of proof for self-defense is on the shooter to show he acted within the law. So that said, why isn’t he in jail awaiting a determination by autohrities of the legality of his actions?”
          Because the way the self-defense laws are written in Florida, the “burden of proof” is not on the shooter. He is not in jail because, “A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.” §776.032(2) So, he claimed self-defense, the initial evidence (there was a scuffle) supports it at first, so he remains free while the investigation is conducted.

    • Austin, I agree. Even IF the kid was commiting property crime, that’s still no good reason to shoot him. Was he attacking you with a lethal weapon someplace where you had no duty or ability to retreat safely? No? Then it’s a bad shoot. When the “self defense” excuse doesn’t hold up, look for this guy to claim “accidental discharge” next.

      • It is not necesssary in FL to be attacked with a lethal weapon in order to shoot. It is necessary to reasonably perceive that the attacker intends to grievously injure or kill you, and that he or she has the apparent ability to do so. Fists and feet are enough. The problem isn’t on that side of the equation, it’s on the “who started the fight?” side and the “had the parties broken off at some point?” Fair trial? The problem here is that the PD didn’t even get a blood test of the shooter, under facts which make clear that the shooter wasn’t dragged to the backyard, but pursued the dead man there.

    • They are welcome, just not relevant. What do big broad statistics about black people being criminals have to do with this one, individual black kid being shot to death by one individual white/hispanic guy? Nothing at all.. whether you agree with the stats or not…
      You’re trying to say that the kid “had it coming” because he was black… Really? Can’t you see how unfair that is?

      • I don’t think that is what James is trying to say here, Josh. I think what he is trying to say is that some people are a lot more defensive with certain races of people than with others. In this instance the guy was cleary agitated and saw the young man as a threat that he probably wouldn’t have seen in a White teen or Hispanic teen. Is this fact? No. But we hear from the media enough about it that it does put some folks on edge.

        That said this kid was scrawny and unarmed. I would not have seen him as a threat personally but in the situation and what transpired (of which we know little) this man obviously felt threatened (or said he did) by him. I am not hedging any bets. I will wait and see what the courts decide.

        • “That said this kid was scrawny and unarmed. I would not have seen him as a threat personally…”

          Meth/crackheads are scrawny and often unarmed, but would consider them to be a threat. If so, why is it any worse take race in to consideration?

  14. I see. Uncomfortable posts mentioning the presence of uncomfortable facts are also not welcome.

  15. I feel sad for the Martin family. Zimmerman should have followed directions and NOT persued the kid, or at least no close enough to allow a confrontation. The media is protraying him as a over zealous community watch guy that was “hunting” instead of watching. On the other hand, I wasn’t there so I’m wildly speculating like most everyone else. Never a good thing when the Rev. Al Sharpton shows up. I remember all too well the circus Rev. Al created over Towana Brawley’s alleged rape that never happened. Rev. Al never once appologized to the district attorney that he accused of committing the rape, even though the D.A. won a defamation case against Sharpton in court. I hope and pray that tempers stay cool enough that no one else gets injured or killed over this, and that the truth will come out sooner rather than later, but I fear that we will see retaliation in the next few days with the usual clowns fanning the flames of hate.

  16. Not surprising at all. I live in the Bay Area, and we had this case last year:

    The guy was a convicted pimp who was wanted in Seattle for murder, he ran from transit cops in SF, pulled a gun, fired at them, they fired back, he fell down and accidentally shot his own jugular vein out. Some “innocent bystander” stole the suspect’s gun from the crime scene during the near riot that ensued (it was later recovered). That week we had protests against the police brutally killing an unarmed African American man “for not having bus fare”, and a huge memorial (I passed by it once) including dozens of flowers and stuffed animals left at the crime scene by tearful citizens.

    My point is that if a sack of s**t like that garnered unilateral support from the kind of people who like to turn everything into a racial anti-police issue, we can’t expect any respect for due process in a case like Zimmerman’s, which seems on it’s face to be far more ambiguous.

    • I expect we’ll see every race, including ‘white’ folks, choosing sides automatically based simply on loyalty to their own ‘type.’ That’s the natural result of condoning presidential orders and institutional rules that are not ‘race blind.’ The one-way street has clearly hit a dead end. I get the impression that 47 years of that was enough, in public opinion. I find the New Black Panthers bit remarkable. Sure, let’s live that chapter of our history all over again. No wonder people are purchasing guns at a record rate. They probably get the willies every time they see a story like that, the NBP’s showing up. I’m surprised they don’t buy two. It comes so close after the Holder inexcusable walk-away from other NBP antics. Just what we didn’t need from an AG. Maybe he’ll change?

  17. I found it interesting that this controversy carried on for a week before I ever saw any mention of Zimmerman having a bloodied face when police arrived. I believe I’ll wait for all the facts before jumping on a guilty/innocent bandwagon. That said it does seems like sheer stupidity confronting the teen, especially after being told not to, but without the facts, nobody knows what the kid was doing…

    • It doesn’t matter what the ‘kid’ was doing. Zimmerman had no business confronting him. He’d beed advised not to. And he certainly had no business chasing him to the back yard. Assume, even that as he questioned the kid….the kid punched him and ran. Zimmerman still does not have the right to pursue the kid with a gun in his holster. He has the right to call the cops. All of which is not to say “convict him before a trial.” The point is that the facts and 911’s were so one-sided that a proper blood scan and investigative work-up should have been performed by the local PD. That’s what the fuss is about, no?

  18. The only thing this kid did wrong was be black in the wrong neighborhood around the wrong white guy that wishes he was a cop

    • He wasn’t in the wrong neighborhood. He was in a neighborhood of his
      dad’s Girlfriend. If this kid was white, there would be no story, no comments, one arrest. Forget race for once, this was a child walking “home” with Skittles and iced tea, murdered by a vigilante. This guy makes Charles Bronson look like a pu$$y in his vigilant movies.

      • “Forget race for once, this was a child walking “home” with Skittles and iced tea…”


  19. Forget for a minute who did what to who. We may never know the whole truth.
    The problem here is that the police have not communicated with the citizens very well. They need the trust of the law abiding citizens to do their jobs. They are loosing that here.
    I live in an area where the police are very pro CCW and pro self defense. But if I shot someone under these same circumstances they would lock me up awaiting the DA’s decision to charge or I would have to have a damn good story about why I needed to kill this guy and that I didn’t cause the confrontation myself. And if I had that kind of a good and believable story they would make a statement to the press/public stating that I claimed self defense and that I was unlikely to be charged or would not be charged.
    Without that type or response, it is understandable that people are upset about what happened. This thing doesn’t pass the smell test.

  20. Alright, something is a little fishy either in the story or the explanation. If he had the +1 in the chamber and fired it, the gun would have cycled and loaded the first round in the mag into the chamber yes? How then was the magazine full? If he was carrying +1, when the police took the gun, it should have had 1 in the chamber and the mag should have been full minus 1.

    • You are correct if the gun cycled properly. But if the top round in the mag failed to feed, the gun would have a full mag and none in the chamber. The same failure to feed has happened to me when testing or operating new magazines, most recently with a Glock 19. A failure to feed would also explain why only one shot was fired.

    • Several possibilities: The gun in question is a small single stack 9mm. Most people I know that carry guns of this size (myself included) usually have a spare magazine on them too (in addition to carrying the +1 in the chamber). I don’t know that Zimmerman did or didn’t, but it is interesting that the magazine is described as being found “full.” Now, I don’t know if that means that the magazine was filled to its max of 7 rounds or if the police consider one in the chamber and 6 in the magazine a “full” magazine. Lets say, theoretically of course, that Zimmerman does take two shots. Immediately following, he realizes his folly and either adds another round to the magazine from the spare one (he theoretically might have on him) or replaced the original magazine with the spare. He then discards the spare magazine and one of the spent casings to hide the evidence before the police arrive. Another option is that he only fired one shot as the physical evidence suggests (I haven’t heard the 911 call where 2 shots can supposedly be heard). After the boy is down, he clears the chamber and reinserts that round into the magazine so the weapon is clear when the police arrive. Just some thoughts, though there may be some details I am overlooking. Granted, with a Kel Tec, there is a better than average chance that the gun failed to cycle.

      • The only detail I see you overlooking is that you need to adjust the band on your tinfoil hat, because it appears to be a little tight.

        • Thank you for your educated and well-reasoned response. Your input has greatly contributed to the discussion.

    • what the hell is wrong with you all? it’s an established fact that most journalists are nearly totally ignorant when it comes to the technical subtleties of firearms (think of the butthurt over when they call mags clips). and now everyone is seizing on this nonsensical data as if it exonerates this douchebag, as if 1shot=self defense and 2hots=murder, instead of chalking it up to the writer heard wrong or heard nonsense and either way didn’t know enough to realize that what he understood makes no sense.

      do any of you really think it’s more likely that this guy reloaded a spare bullet and hid a brass then the reporter that calls it a “Kel Tel” got his gun facts wrong.

  21. So what, he only shot once? Who cares if that contradicts some testimony? Happens all the time.

    As someone who is CC’ing 15 rounds of 9mm at my 4 o’clock, I’m ASHAMED to see this post. I have seven long guns in my closet, and I’m really disappointed in gun owners who would defend this guy.

    Here is what we know – an unarmed honor student who lived in that community was by a man who was known for being very enthusiastic about being a block captain. He had previous criminal charges for battery of a police officer, IGNORED the PD’s instructions to wait for police the intervene, and then LEFT his vehicle and STARTED the encounter with the kid.

    I’m not saying he is guilty. I’m just saying that it is suspicious enough to warrant an arrest, interrogation and drug and alcohol testing.

    Make it a white girl shot by a black man, and I really don’t see why anyone would be defending the shooter.

    • Amen!
      The question here isn’t about gun functions and how the press described them.
      The question is did the shooter commit a crime or not and why are the police stonewalling?

      • Except the number of shots DOES matter to if he committed a crime. If there was on shot fired and the gun had a full mag and an empty chamber, then Zimmerman didn’t shoot the kid – someone else did.

        • Toten, there were witnesses to the wrestling and from the moment of the shot up until police with flashlights entered the area.

          • Yes, but that doesn’t mean much. It’s been proven that witnesses are horribly unreliable, plus even if they saw that, it doesn’t mean that it was Zimmerman’s gun that was fired. Wrestling is not the same as shooting.

    • “But wait, there’s more..” Trayvon’s girlfriend’s testimony is in. The PD has matched the time, and Trayvon was indeed on the phone with the girl during George’s approach. Trayvon “Why are you following me?” George: “What are you doing here?” Trayvon, again “Why are you following me?” George, again: “What are you doing here?” Then she says, it sounded like a scuffle and the phone cut off. There isn’t a big mystery as to what happened in regard to the relevant question, whether the SYG rules were broken. Trayvon didn’t approach Zimmerman. Rather Zimmerman, with no authority whatever, got out of his vehicle and got in Trayvon’s face, in the dark. We’re supposed to be armed against the Zimmermans of the world, not the Trayvons. Or so it appears to me.

      • If that is indeed the case, then Zimmerman f-d up big time. Unless that is his backyard or adjacent backyard, it could be argued he has as much business there as Martin.

  22. There’s a lot of details being left out by many commentators here. I have no idea what happened that night, not having been there, but I have carefully read the reports that have come out. Buried in those reports are a lot of telling little details that add up to this whole thing being a case of media malpractice.

    First, if you wonder why Zimmerman was tracking Martin, there’s this: Martin jumped a fence, bypassing security on a gated neighborhood. That’s why this whole thing started–If he’d come in through the gate, like a legitimate resident, then this might not have happened. Act like a criminal, you tend to get classified as one.

    Second, nobody is mentioning Zimmerman’s broken nose and the fact that they had to stitch his scalp back together after he and Martin got done with their little “encounter” behind those houses. This would tend to argue that he was getting the worst of things, and wasn’t likely the one who initiated the fight. Having listened to the 911 tapes, I’m pretty sure the cops made the right choice in not arresting him immediately. What’s messed up here is that the public outcry is likely to influence the prosecutor into pressing charges when he probably doesn’t have the actual grounds to do so. It will be interesting to see what the forensics prove in this case–If Zimmerman shot Martin while he was on the ground, and Martin was on top of him, that’s going to go a long way towards justifying what he did.

    Couple of other points: The pictures being published, like the ones accompanying this article? They’re not recent ones, are they? Martin is shown as a young, sympathetic teen in all of what his family has released. Look for the recent ones, where he looks a lot more like what Zimmerman was evaluating that night–A truculent, far more menacing figure than the image of sweetness and light they want to portray him as. Additionally–When was the last time Al Sharpton was on the side of the angels, in anything? The mere fact that riot-starting asshole has showed up and participated in this tells me that Zimmerman is likely justified in what he did and yet, still due to be railroaded in the name of “racial justice”.

    • The pictures being published, like the ones accompanying this article? They’re not recent ones, are they?

      I once defended a wrongful death suit where the plaintiff’s lawyer found some pictures of the deceased (who was completely innocent and did absolutely nothing to bring about his own demise) wearing his band uniform and holding a tuba.

      We settled. Fast.

    • Alot of folks went into the community through the same gap… They only go through the “official gate” if they’re driving. He was on foot, and like almost every other kid going to the 711 in that community, he went through the open gap to save himself a quarter mile of walking. I know this because my wife’s grandparents live in that area and they’ve been there before.
      I cut through backyards in my neighborhood growing up all the time, doesn’t mean I deserved to be shot to death.
      BTW, so what if he looked a bit more grown up now…. he was still an honor student with no rap sheet. And he STILL didn’t deserve to die.
      Zimmerman is still pretty suspect in his actions and has a very obvious motive for lying about the events.

      • If you knock a man down, and are hitting him hard enough to break his nose while straddling his body, you’re setting yourself up for a disparity-of-force argument that may well lead to your death being judged justifiable. There’s nothing in the law whatsoever that says someone in a situation like that has to lay there and take the beating.

        Let’s assume that Martin was in the right to assault Zimmerman. I’m not sure what that would be, given the damage he inflicted, but let’s just say he was. If you continue things from there, there are two questions to answer: Was Martin continuing his attack on Zimmerman past the point he ended whatever threat he perceived? Was Zimmerman threatening him with his weapon before that point?

        No matter what way you analyze this, once Martin put Zimmerman on the ground and was physically restraining him (straddling his body), while continuing his assault, he was in the wrong. Once he ended the threat to himself, continuing the attack moves him from “victim” to “assailant”.

        The whole thing hinges on who introduced force, and when. If Zimmerman initiated things, and then lost the physical fight, he’s in the clear because Martin continued to attack him after he was physically neutralized. If he didn’t initiate physical force, then Martin is wrong for beginning the attack in the first place. I find it hard to believe that the gun was introduced into the equation until after Zimmerman was on the ground, because if it was, Martin would have been a fool to attack him. The fact that Zimmerman had sustained physical damage from his attack tends to support the idea that he did not have his weapon in hand when the fight started.

    • Sharp ton shows up where he is paid to show up. The boy’s parent’s attorney has paid Sharpton to show up at a similar case in the past.

    • I would very much like to see your sources for the information regarding Martin jumping the fence, and Zimmerman’s injuries. (Honestly, not looking to impune you here.)

  23. I don’t know who did what before and during this shooting, but it does seem like the local PD did not perform a thorough investigation afterwards. The State Police have taken over the investigation, and now the Justice Department has stuck it’s nose into the case based on the usual overblown and overreaching interpretation of its jurisdiction.

    The case is complicated by Florida’s Stand Your Ground Law. If Zimmerman reasonably felt that he was under attack, he had no duty to retreat. However, he did not have any authority under that or any other law to disregard the commands of police, or perhaps the 911 dispatcher. Her authority to tell Zimmerman to stand down is not clear. Also, when Zimmerman said he was following Martin, the dispatcher did not tell him to stop. What she said was, “We don’t need you to do that.” That’s an equivocal statement and I do not believe that it will be deemed to be a command. Had she said, “do not do that,” it might be a different case.

    Whatever the outcome of these competing investigations, I think we can all agree that this is a massive clusterf^ck and that, at best, Zimmerman is the worst kind of flake.

    • If a person with no local badge trails me in his SUV in the dark, and if he then stops the vehicle, hops out, approaches me, and when I ask him “why are you following me” he does not give a satisfactory answer, I’ll have my hand on my gun. It’s that simple. SYG does not allow a person to started an argument, turn it into a fist fight, pursue a person 80 feet into back yards, and then (whatever the circumstance…it really doesn’t matter at that point) shoot the person he was bothering. At least in PA, you may not chase a guy to the piece of turf on which you choose to ‘stand your ground.’ Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend through the initial confrontation. This has been verified.

      • and then he’ll shoot you, claim he was afraid of you because you are armed and call it self defense.

    • All right, I’m no lawyer, but here’s how I read the situation based on Google Law School:

      First, self-defense laws only apply when you’re resisting an unlawful use of force. If you assault someone, or attempt to unlawfully detain them, they are lawfully entitled to use force in their own defense. Their lawful use of force does not in turn legitimize your use of force or any escalation thereof.

      Florida does not have a citizen’s arrest statute, but case law establishes that private citizens can lawfully effect an arrest in any case where they have probable cause to believe a felony has been committed. Zimmerman, it appears, had no such probable cause and any attempt he made to physically detain Martin would have been unlawful. Therefore, if Zimmerman laid hands on Martin, as seems likely, then it’s not self-defense.

      Also, I might note that it doesn’t take an Al Sharpton or the NAACP to put a racial spin on a crime. If you find yourself bending over backwards trying to give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt in the face of the evidence now available, you might want to give your own motives a thorough going-over.

  24. I’m sorry but all you guys talk about defensive gun use and only using a deadly weapon as the ultimate means of defense when your life is threatened blah blah blah and here many of you are defending this jack ass. The fact of the matter is that the boy was an unarmed scrawny little 17 year old. I don’t know about you but if an unarmed teenager comes at me I’m not thinking about my gun first. Why didn’t it occur to him to subdue the assailant before ever pulling his gun? Replay this scenario in your head. I just don’t see how a kid going to his house could cause such fear in a man probably 50-100lbs bigger than, to be so threatened as to use deadly force. The fact is he pulled that weapon prematurely without thinking about the consequences and he should pay for it. He’ll probably go free though because it’s a black kid after all thus making him a “bad guy” right? If this were a 17 yr old white kid, Zimmerman would rot in prison. Choose your targets wisely folks…

    • For an “unarmed, skinny little 17year old”, he sure managed to do some damage. Broken nose, and by one account, 13 stitches on the back of Zimmerman’s head. If Zimmerman didn’t bring the gun into things until after that happened, I’m afraid he was perfectly justified shooting Martin dead. It all depends on who initiated the physical side of things, here.

      Those pictures you’re using to judge Martin as “skinny” and “little”? They’re not at all recent. It’s hard to judge scale with some of the other, more recent ones, but he sure doesn’t look like he fit that description when he died.

      • If Zimmerman did leave his vehicle and pursue Martin, he may very well face a manslaughter charge depending on his actions after leaving the van. Even if Zimmerman went up to Martin and called him names, that doesn’t justify Martin from basically removing Zimmerman’s scalp. That being the case, FSS does justify use of deadly force as one poster mentioned.

        Should Zimmerman have stayed in his van? Yes. Is he covered by FSS on use of deadly force? I guess the SA’s office will let us know.

        • We do know they broke and ran to the backyards. I disagree with the notion that the law lets you harass someone without a badge, chase them into the back yard (even if you’ve been punched already) insist on fighting some more, and then shoot. Nope. You are definitely not allowed to escalate to a gun in a fight you start or the resumption of which you force. Now, if it was Zimmerman running back to his car after the fight and Trayvon tackling him, the rules are reset. We know that wasn’t the case. You’ve heard Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend complaining that someone was following him, and that she heard the initial conversation between George and Trayvon?

        • I think you’re mistaken, here. First of all, the recorded 911 call has the operator saying “…we don’t need you to do that…”, which is emphatically not an instruction for him to stay in his vehicle.

          A lot depends on what happened once Zimmerman left his vehicle. If he pursued Martin simply trying to maintain eye contact with him when he went behind the buildings, and Martin turned to confront Zimmerman, that’s a different situation than if Zimmerman accosted him or tried grabbing him. It all depends on who started the verbal contact, and who initiated force. If it was Zimmerman, then the shooting is probably going to be adjudicated against him. If Martin started the verbal confrontation (“Why are you following me?) and then initiated the physical assault, Zimmerman is not going to be found at fault. Determining who spoke first, and who swung first is going to be critical.

          My understanding of self-defense law also leads me to believe that it’s quite wrong to say that even if you initiate the fight, you’re never able to use a weapon in self-defense. Let’s say that the fight started with Zimmerman grabbing at Martin to prevent him from leaving the scene of the confrontation. Once Martin has done what he needs to do in order to break Zimmerman’s grip on him, anything he does past that to escalate the assault now puts the onus on him as the aggressor. Once he had Zimmerman down, on his back, and was beating him, Zimmerman has the absolute right to use whatever means necessary to stop Martin. The fact that he had lost the physical confrontation and was now helpless in the control of Martin is actually going to do more to justify his use of deadly force, as he has pretty much proven, by that point, that he’d exhausted all his options.

          Who spoke, and who struck first is what needs to be determined here.

          • I don’t agree, and I’ll say why: We know how the conversation started, because it was overheard. We know that Zimmerman chased Martin from the front sidewalk to the backyards. We know that they engaged in the backyards, in a wrestling-like fight, according to witnesses on the 911 calls. If you chase someone from the sidewalk to the back yard and get close enough to engage, it doesn’t matter if you are losing the fight. Say uncle. You can’t pull a gun when you insisted on a fight, not even if you start to lose it. The charge will likely be reduced to manslaughter from murder 2, but you won’t have an affirmative defense.

    • im sure his line of thinking is that if he was overpowered, treyvon could have taken the gun from him and killed him with it.

  25. I’m sorry but all you guys talk about defensive gun use and only using a deadly weapon as the ultimate means of defense when your life is threatened blah blah blah and here many of you are defending this jack ass. The fact of the matter is that the boy was an unarmed scrawny little 17 year old. I don’t know about you but if an unarmed teenager comes at me I’m not thinking about my gun first. Why didn’t it occur to him to subdue the assailant before ever pulling his gun? Replay this scenario in your head. I just don’t see how a kid going to his house could cause such fear in a man probably 50-100lbs bigger than, to be so threatened as to use deadly force. The fact is he pulled that weapon prematurely without thinking about the consequences and he should pay for it. Choose your targets wisely folks…

    • “All” of us guys talk about defensive gun use because this a blog about guns; all of us guys also talk about avoiding confrontations, the limits placed upon gun owners and related matters that seem to have escaped your attention.

      And as far as I can tell, nobody is defending this jackass, nor exonerating him. I realize that your sensibilities might be less offended if we just dragged Zimmerman out into the bushes and shot him, but that’s not going to happen.

      Unless you were a witness, you don’t have a single clue as to what actually transpired. You just have your prejudices, which you’ve made very clear.

      BTW, just to keep the record straight, I’m very uncomfortable with the way this investigation was mishandled by the local LEOs, and I just do not believe what I’ve heard of Zimmerman’s story. But since the flow of information has been controlled by media that I distrust, I expect that we all will learn more over time, and that the additional information may either hang Zimmerman or exonerate him.

      • How it was handled by police is the only issue. Unfortunately, if the police decide upon initial evidence that it was clearly a SYG case, they will not arrest. All the comments seem to come at that question different ways, but this remains: Was it so clearly a SYG case that no arrest should have been made, given that the PD had Zimmerman’s statement and all the 911 calls, and we’ve read and heard the same material? To many of us it seems glaringly obvious that the answer is ‘no.’ Not one comment on this post is sensible that approaches guilt or innocence, or race. The issue is only “does it seem this was a clear-cut case of SYG self-defense?” Nobody would be happier if they dragged Zimmerman into the bushes and shot him. Hyperbole. Which is OK, but its hyperbole.

  26. When I first read at MSNBC about the shooting by a George Zimmerman at first glance I thought it was TTAG own Dan Zimmerman who did the shooting. Hey, don’t blame me since everday I read posts by Dan. BTW, wasn’t George Zimmerman the name of the man who started the Men’s Warehouse chain of clothing stores?

    • George Zimmer founded Men’s Wearhouse. Dan Zimmerman is the exaulted editor of TTAG (I had to throw the exalted thing in there because he edits my articles and I don’t want to piss him off). Don Zimmer is a retired baseball player, manager and coach who looks like a chipmunk. Ryan Zimmerman is a pretty good hitter and third baseman. And Zimmermann means carpenter in Deutsche.

  27. We really only have what has been leaked to the media (ie–not the completed investigation). Knee jerk reactions don’t do any of us favors in the long run. Also bear in mind that FL does consider the actions of what we call a “primary aggressor” and such will often decide who is a defendant and who is victim. As the SA’s office is taking over, I’ll wait for the official SA investigation before jumping to conclusions. I’ve seen far too many officers get lives and careers ruined because of the media circus surrounding an otherwise “good shoot.”

    • The part the media continues to leave out is the part leading up to the actual shooting.

      “Man followed unarmed 17yr old down street and shot him”


      I still think the guy went looking for trouble making him the aggressor. “theres a [black] man walking down the street I think hes up to no good, wow somethings wrong with this guy he probably on drugs”

      Lets face it, the guy even said “they always get away” which to me sounds like he’s out there profiling people, and I’m willing to bet he’s mostly calling the cops on black guys walking down the street. Does this guy have training in narco-investigations? The guy was following a 17yr old. If I was him I would be trying to get away from this guy ASAP. I dunno.

      The neighbors calls sounded like there was a scuffle outside their house (front, back, side, who knows)

      The media is doing a HUGE injustice to firearms owners right now, but what else is new.

      • All of the callers reported that the fight was occurring in their back yards, and then a shot was fired. Two of the callers in adjacent units said it was taking place a few feet from their back decks.

  28. J, You must have missed this post just before yours.

    “Second, nobody is mentioning Zimmerman’s broken nose and the fact that they had to stitch his scalp back together after he and Martin got done with their little “encounter” behind those houses.” – Kirk

    This doesn’t indicate that he jumped the gun, no pun intended. It actually indicates the opposite.

    • They were fighting. All the 911 callers agree. It proves nothing (either way) that George had a broken nose and cut on the back of his head, except that at some point he was probably losing the fight. The question is “did George pursue Trayvon after initially confronting him on the sidewalk?” If so, his defense of SYG is gone. Indeed, I would gladly argue the case that the defense didn’t apply once he got out of his SUV, approached Trayvon, and would not answer the question “Why are you following me?” Much easier than convincing a jury the defense did still exist.

  29. This is being tried in the media. What’s up with the picture of twelve year old Trayvon?

  30. Funny, pretty much every “pro-Zimmerman” post is simply stating that we should have all the facts before declaring the guy guilty and starting a race riot, yet some of you (unsurprisingly) say these posters are defending Zimmerman and are being “racist.” Big shock. When you’re totally out of real logic, play the race card. Welcome to modern America.

    The ONLY reason this story is getting any press is because the kid’s black and the shooter isn’t. That’s the only reason anyone is angry, whether real or manufactured. If this was a white kid shot by Zimmerman (or a white kid shot by a black watch captain), no one would give half a shit. And you say the public/news/system is racist against blacks? Get your heads out of your asses.

      • Get off your high horse Ralph, I’ve see you engage in bigotry everyday on this site. Just the other day you were gay bashing.

        And come on, blacks kids shoot each other everyday and no one gives a shit. A white guy shoots a black kid and it becomes national news.

        • right matt, way to defend Zimmerman by citing how “on one gives a shit” about black people being killed. and btw Zimmerman is half hispanic, kind of deflates your “white man marching on” theme when you post here.

    • I disagree. I think many of us are angered by the idea that this was considered a ‘stand your ground’ case by the PD, and that no routine investigation, including blood work, was performed. That is why I am angered. I assume Zimmerman would have behaved the same if the kid was white. I have a young adult son. If some creep hopped out of his car and started interrogating him, and would not answer the question “why are you following me?” my son would probably have pushed him away and run. If the guy caught up with him, my son would probably have broken the guy’s nose and banged his head on the ground. And if the guy then pulled a gun and shot him? Well, how would you feel? Guns are not for winning fights which you start or force. The SYG law in PA is clear on that. If the law in FL isn’t? God help you Floridians.

      • Actually toxicology typically isn’t done unless there is reason to warrant it. THIs and certain DUI cases are typically compulsory depending on the circumstances. Quite honestly from what I’m now reading, I would say Zimmerman was stalking Martin and Martin might have had enough right to strike first instead of waiting for Zimmerman to throw the first punch. The law is also quite clear that application of force be necessary to stop the aggression.

        Again, SYG is intended for not having to retreat before using deadly force when there is a legal right to be there. We will have to wait and see what the SA’s office says about who had what legal right to be where as well as physical evidence details. With as much heat as this case is gathering, the investigation will likely be quite exhaustive.

  31. This whole thing stinks. It’s a bad shooting, provoked in part by a wannabe cop and a poorly understood law (FL’s stand your ground law). I’ve been involved in several situations reporting imminent criminal events to 911 operators, and when I describe that someone is fleeing the scene of the crime and I give them a license plate, without exception, I have been told each time that I should remain where I am and should not pursue. Zimmerman’s job was done when he called the police. His next responsibility was to contact his neighbors and alert them, if he believed that there was a criminal threat.

    Instead, this tragic event occurred because he thought he was a junior woodchuck cop. It is bad enough when cops shoot people indiscriminately, but when pretend cops shoot people indiscriminately, we have gone a little too far into the police state mentality. I find it hard to believe that there was no crime that Zimmerman could have been charged with. He should have at least been brought before a grand jury on the illegal discharge of a firearm.

    This is not a firearms issue. This is a citizenship issue.

  32. If you ask me.. This is going to turn into a “See, see here, see what the ‘shoot first’ law does? We want justice” argument.

    When the man was on the phone with the 9-1-1 dispatcher and he was asked if he was following the victim, and the dispatcher said “uh yeah we don’t need you to do that” and he got out of his car and continued following the victim… He lost his right to self-defense. He went looking for trouble. The stand your ground law* is there for when you or another is faced with a threat to their life. You may use force on force. This is not about “did the man feel he was threatened” because he may have felt that way, but thats negated by the fact that he went LOOKING FOR TROUBLE. I dont support this vigilante one bit. Having an LTC is not about looking for trouble, it’s about avoiding it but knowing you have the means to protect yourself. He should have stayed in his car as the dispatcher directed him to. When he got out of the car, pursued the victim and confronted him, he made a HUGE mistake.

    *I’m not 100% clear on this as I live in the Peoples Democratic Republic of California. We have a duty to retreat. That said, I have only a blush understanding of stand your ground laws.

  33. Where was al sharpton and the media when this happened?
    A 13-year-old boy who police say was doused with gasoline and lit on fire last week while walking home from school is recovering from first-degree burns to his face and head. The boy was just two blocks from his home in Kansas City Tuesday when two teenagers began to follow him and then attacked him, his mother, Melissa Coon, said.

    Police have described the suspects as black 16-year-olds, while the victim is white. “We were told it’s a hate crime,” Coon told KTLA.

    “They rushed him on the porch as he tried to get the door open,” Coon told KMBC. “(One of them) poured the gasoline, then flicked the [lighter], and said, ‘This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, white boy.'”

    By lighting the gasoline, the second attacker “produced a large fireball burning the face and hair” of the boy, according to a Kansas City Police Department report obtained by KCTV.

    “It was pretty bad stuff,” Detective Stacey Taylor told the TV station, adding that police are concerned the boy may have suffered damage to his eyes and lungs.

    Coon said her son put out the fire with his shirt and called 911 himself. He was rushed to the hospital and was treated for his injuries. She believes the students also attend East High School with her son, and said he will not be returning to the school. She also told KMBC her traumatized family plans now plans to move.

    “My 5-year-old came in and asked me, ‘Mom, am I going to get set on fire today?'” Coon said. “I was in tears.”

    • Because your never allowed to accuse a protected class of engaging in a hate crime. And everyone is a protected class except white men (unless your gay/FTM tranny).

      • what’s your definition of protected class? cops find the aftermath of a shoot out and don’t take custody of the shooter of an unarmed teen. to me that sounds exactly like what a protected class is.

        • your asking the police to deprive a law abiding citizen of their rights and freedoms without due process. the police are conducting an investigation, and if there is evidence then the police can arrest him. but you know, good luck trying to form your internet lynch mob.

          • Matt, nothing wrong with arresting someone. People are arrested ALL THE TIME on charges that are later dismissed. The Stand Your Ground is a legal defense that will save your ass in court. It shouldn’t save you from getting arrested.

            The fact that the police didn’t arrest this guy, get a statement and test him is troubling.

            • Arresting the guy would violate FSS. Any department not wanting to lose accreditation and charter might want to avoid violating the laws it is supposed to enforce. Personally, there were other charges such as stalking they could have charged Zimmerman with if he indeed got out and chased Martin. We still don’t know what we don’t know.

      • Matt,

        That’s not how protected classes work. “Black” for instance, is not a protected class. Neither is “gay”. “Race” is a protected class – distinctions made on the basis of race must pass strict scrutiny, whatever the victim’s actual race is.

    • That incident is being presumed, by the police in Missouri, to be a hate crime, according to the St. Louis paper.

  34. A new article from AP came out about the victim’s girlfriend. Apparently she was on the phone with him while the altercation took place. According to her Martin said that someone was following him. She told him to run, but he said he was just going to walk fast. She then said she heard the voice of Zimmerman and then an altercation. Then the phone went silent. So its my guess that he pursued the kid trying to be billy-bad-ass, got his ass kicked, then shot the boy. White, black, pink, or polka-dotted, this person needs to be in SOMEONE’S custody!

        • he may be half hispanic but he is still white. he doesn’t have black hair, he doesn’t have brown skin, he doesn’t have a latino name, and he doesn’t talk with a latino accent. the only way to know that he is hispanic is to be told that he is hispanic.

          • “Gabba says:

            March 20, 2012 at 19:22

            he may be half hispanic but he is still white. he doesn’t have black hair, he doesn’t have brown skin, he doesn’t have a latino name, and he doesn’t talk with a latino accent. the only way to know that he is hispanic is to be told that he is hispanic.”

            Yeah… it is called fact. The media is supposed to help report some of them.

            • yeah but people are saying he is hispanic as if that means that he can’t be racist or that the cops wouldn’t view him as a white guy.

              • Errmmm… I think people are saying he is Hispanic because he is… yes, you guessed it – Hispanic.

                What difference does it make?

      • She reported the conversation that took place on the sidewalk. I wouldn’t be surprised if she recorded it. I recounted that, above. She didn’t give a slant either way that I could detect.

  35. This is VERY SAD. I feel for the family and my sincere feelings go to them. As a mother I know the love and protection for a child–there is no other love out there.
    This young individual is no longer here because this guy–neighborhood watch guy–took it upon himself to act in a way that brought about a very bad situation. The guy should have listened to the dispatcher and never got out of his car and this situation could have been avoided. I believe the man had already determined that this was the individual or at least one of the individuals breaking into the houses because of previous news from other neighborhood watch persons. I believe the injuries the neighborhood watch guy got was brought on by harrassing this young individual.
    Let’s all not forget we all were 17 at one time and at that age we did not want someone coming up to us making false statements or harrassing us.
    Bottom line is this man should have never pulled his gun out and shot this young man whom did not have a gun but what seems to be just protecting himself from a man harrassing him.

  36. Blacks shoot blacks all the time and it is routinely ignored by the media. Just another day in paradise. Blacks shoot whites much more than the other way around, and it’s usually ignored by the media. Just another “random” shooting. A white (not even a white, but apparently an Hispanic who is conveniently labeled “white”) shoots a black, and it somehow confirms the prevalence of white racism.

    This is simply the anti-white media and the usual suspects, the race hustlers, making a political point. We know it is so because all the facts have yet to come to light, but Z. is considered guilty already. Maybe someone can ask Rev. Al, once he gets down there looking for justice, whether Zimmerman was the one who “raped” Tawana Brawley? This entire mess just doesn’t pass the smell test.

    • If this story (on this site) is about the reverse rascism which permeates the media and our society, I want no part of it. This isn’t a good forum for that. I thought the question was “is this the kind of case, with the 911 calls in the PD’s hands, in which no initial arrest should be made?” Americans caved in to being Mau Mau’d long ago. That’s a separate thread, I think. See Tom Wolfe’s “Mau Mauing the Flack Catchers.”

  37. “This entire mess just doesn’t pass the smell test.”

    no, what does not pass is your racilized “smell test” is the fact you state “that Blacks shoot whites much more than the other way around, and it’s usually ignored by the media”
    without stats, your info is an opinion and not fact,

    A white (not even a white, but apparently an Hispanic who is conveniently labeled “white”) shoots a black, and it somehow confirms the prevalence of white racism.

    no what confirms it is your defense of a person who is clearly wants to play police officer, this fool has called the cops 46 times in the past year to report “suspicious persons,” all who live that neighborhood. why do you feel personally persecuted by a situation that does not involve you.

    btw pointing out that race is a factor in a situation does not make you a racist.

    • sdog says:

      ‘”no, what does not pass is your racilized “smell test” is the fact you state “that Blacks shoot whites much more than the other way around, and it’s usually ignored by the media”
      without stats, your info is an opinion and not fact,”

      In Cleveland, Ohio his comments are nothing but fact. Crime reports that in Cleveland if someone was murdered it is usually by a black male age 18-35. I don’t have my report right now ( a friend is going to send it) but if I recall correctly there were 34 murders in Cleveland in 2009 by February. 30 of them were black on black and 2 of them were black on white. The other 2 show up as white on other.

      In some places this is just fact. There are quite a few more blacks in Cleveland than whites so it would stats-wise show that blacks would be committing more murders because there are more of them. Let’s not forget the fact that blacks in Cleveland have a major issue with poverty. Anyone can tell you that poverty and crime do mix and that it leads an increase of crime within the impoverished community. So… more blacks + black poverty = blacks more crime.

      “no what confirms it is your defense of a person who is clearly wants to play police officer, this fool has called the cops 46 times in the past year to report “suspicious persons,” all who live that neighborhood. why do you feel personally persecuted by a situation that does not involve you.”

      As someone who lives in a community where what he is saying actually happens I have to disagree with you. He is right. Blacks shoot blacks all the time (in Cleveland) and it goes unreported all the time. Add in some sensationalism and we have a story. An example: Sowell. Anyone know of him? Anyone? Killed a mess of women in his house. A black guy that killed a bunch of black prostitutes. Hardly any media coverage for one of the latest and most brutal mass murderers in U.S. history. Fast forward. A black man who had eluded the police in a high speed chase was sighted filling up at a gas station. Police announced and he ran at an officer. The officer shot and the guy was sent to the hospital with major injuries. Uh oh! Major mistake officer! You were white! All over the media here in Cleveland.

      “btw pointing out that race is a factor in a situation does not make you a racist.”

      Some would disagree. I have been called a racist once this week by someone. Where in the post that culture not color matters makes me a racist is I don’t know. People get all uppity about race for some reason.

  38. One item that was brought out in another forum by a lawyer was that Zimmerman should have never been able to catch Martin on foot.
    The cell phone conversation had Martin walking and then later running, but Zimmerman was still able to corner him?
    I am not saying that Martin started the fight ( and I am not saying he did not ), but with superior speed, Martin could choose the engagement point, or withdrawl route. Zimmerman ( whose actions are really dumb ) really could not choose the engagement point or retreating route if Martin chased him.
    From what I can tell, Zimmerman did not really do very well in the hand to hand combat that ensued.
    I can see the race card has become a media and poltical event and we probably will have a few race riots if Zimmerman is aquitted.

    • Considering Martin played football, I would say his physical prowess is going to be a little better than someone driving around as the neighborhood watch (self appointed or otherwise). Out of all the speculation, I’ve only seen two references to FL state statute with me being one of them. Before people criticize the Sanford PD, they need to actually read the law and understand why Zimmerman was not arrested.

    • Let me understand what you are saying. You think that if Martin was chasing Zimmerman, who had a gun, that Zimmerman would take off into the backyards? No? OK. Are you saying that if Zimmerman chases Martin into the backyards, that Martin doesn’t have the right to say “screw this!” stop, and deck Zimmerman? I disagree. And at that point Zimmerman is not “standing his ground.” I think I’ll drop out of this for a bit and await a well-cited brief on FL ‘stand your ground’ law. At this point it’s about the law, and I ain’t gonna brief it. And nobody else here is going to, I imagine.

  39. We need to look at this event based on the verifyable facts at hand.

    Not based on what we ‘think’ happened,or what we’d do in Zimmermans’ situation.I’ve been involved in a situation that went from words to “potential mortal combat” in less time than it took to type that sentence.I backed away from the threat with my hand on the Beretta,but fortunately things cooled off enough for me to leave the area.The thought crossed my mind after the shakes set in:what would the incident look like from the outside?What would the media think had I needed to shoot for my survival?To a lot of uneducated people shooting a burglar in your home *is* murder.To a lot of uneducated masses the things we take for granted on this site as moral and just behavior are actions tantamount to terrorism.Example;loaded Glock on hip to us= personal defense.To ignorant masses,its ‘paranoia’ .Loaded AR15 in cupboard=home defense.To ignorant masses ,its an assault weapon.Thus we should judge based on the facts of the case-and only the facts of the case.I will not condemn or exonerate Zimmerman until the case has been decided accordingly.

    • It is certainly correct to withhold judgment until an investigation and possibly trial have been undertaken. But that is part of point. From what has been reported, it appears the local police have either not made a thorough investigation, or for some reason have not detained or charged Mr. Zimmerman. Having heard the 911 tapes this is hard for me to understand. They certailiy apper to show that Mr Zimmerman pursued Mr Martin, escalating the incident, even after being told not to leave his vehicle by the dispatcher. I would think that this alone would be enough to bring him in for some very tough questioning. That does not appear to have happened. Remember this event occured at the end of February, but has only just become a national issue. This has happened because, apparently, lots of people have listened to the tapes and read the witness accounts, and are not satisfied that this was self defense on Mr Zimmerman’s part. An investigation will be needed to determine that more clearly. But it did not appear that such an investigation would occur. Now it will. That seems more than proper to me. After all, a life was taken.

  40. I know nothing about gun laws and do not care. I’m sure there are many who carry guns and who use them responsibly. As a mother, I have been waiting for someone to tell me what Trayvon should have done after being followed by a stranger? I believe most of us would tell our children if you can’t get away, then fight like crazy. This could’ve been a Sandusky type guy.

    I am saddened that you all care more about guns than the life of the boy. Btw, the picture you all are so hoping is old…was taken this year. That’s the menacing, suspicious boy Zimmerman followed. And then cried self defense.

    • “I am saddened that you all care more about guns than the life of the boy.”

      — Spoken like a typical hysterical and emotionally reactive whatever. Obviously you haven’t read through the posts calmly, rationally, and thoroughly.

  41. As a mother, I have been waiting for someone to tell me what Trayvon should have done after being followed by a stranger? I believe most of us would tell our children if you can’t get away, then fight like crazy. This could’ve been a Sandusky type guy.

    I am saddened that you all care more about guns than the life of the boy. Btw, the picture you all are so hoping is old…was taken this year. That’s the menacing, suspicious boy Zimmerman followed. And then cried self defense.

    • Too many guesses on what may have happened. Lets see what the investigation comes up with. We have to put faith in the system and the police investigators. By the way the race thing is getting old.

      • Lovely to know that “the race thing is getting old” for you. Know what else is getting old? Being profiled, stalked, and then killed for being black walking on a sidewalk with candy. If you ask me, I’d rather have your problem.

        What kind of lunacy is it, in 2012 when people ride around with “don’t re-nig” bumper stickers, that the possibility of racism EVER being even the SLIGHTEST contributor to the profiling and killing of a black person automatically is “playing the race card”? Apparently the “race card” is played any time a person suspects that racist stereotypes or negative opinions, attitudes, and thoughts about black people could EVER be expressed into actions. The very idea is COMPLETELY unfathomable and in no way a valid consideration. I suppose the murder of James Byrd Jr. was also not based on race, right?

        How can we “put faith in the investigators” when an investigation NEVER happened? FACT: they just “took Zimmerman’s word” that he didn’t have a record. FACT: they just “took Zimmerman’s word” that it was self-defense. Seems to me the very opposite of “investigating” is just “taking someone’s word for what happened.” FACT: Martin was tested for drugs. Zimmerman, who sounds very intoxicated on his call, WAS NOT. If I am suspected of a crime and the cops show up and ask me where I was at such-and-such time on such-and-such date, and I say “I was home the whole time…” apparently it is perfectly reasonable, as INVESTIGATORS, to just “take my word for it,” shrug, apologize for bothering me and telling me to have a nice day.

        Un. Freaking. Believable.

    • I can tell you what he shouldn’t have been doing: Assaulting that stranger by breaking his nose, half-scalping him, and then straddling him and continuing to beat him. Even if you assume that Zimmerman started the confrontation, once Martin had him down and on the ground, that was where he should have stopped, withdrawn, and sought help. Continuing to beat on Zimmerman moved him from victim to assailant, and is what got him killed–Assuming that that is what happened. From the fact that Zimmerman was not arrested immediately indicates that there’s enough evidence to support this theory of what happened.

      Even if Zimmerman accosted him and asked for ID, there’s nothing there that justifies what Martin did. That he did what he did is pretty well-established, and what remains is the question of who did what to whom, and when they did it.

      Don’t want your kids to get killed? Teach them the law on use of force, and make sure they’ve got good manners. I can’t imagine a situation where I’d react like the way Martin did to a simple and justifiable question when you’re a stranger wandering a neighborhood you don’t live in. A polite “I’m visiting my Dad’s girlfriend over there in that house…” would have probably defused the situation. Instead, it appears that a foolish young man chose poorly, and got physical with someone twice his age. Hell, even if Zimmerman is the biggest jackass cop wannabe in the world, there was nothing there to justify breaking his nose and beating him up. Fools like that are best dealt with by being painfully polite, and making them look like fools–Which was well within Mr. Martin’s range of available actions. He chose poorly, and died.