Some people think that any rifle can be improved by slapping an M4 buttstock on it. Got an AK? Slap an M4 stock on it! A 10/22? Slap an M4 stock on it! A converted semi-auto RPD? Slap an M4 stock on it! When it messed with the HK91, this M4 buttstock fetish went a little too far. The HK91 may be an obsolete, overweight, brass-chewing monster that kicks like a mule, but it has earned its place in history. It should be allowed to keep its dignity . . .
An M4 Stock? Really?
The fixed buffer tube of the AR platform has always been one of the weaknesses of Eugene Stoner’s versatile design because it can’t fold for storage or transport. It also makes that annoying ‘clunnnggg’ sound when you fire it with ear protection.
The collapsing M4 stock is an improvement over the original A2 fixed stock for most military purposes, but it’s still not a very good design by modern standards. What? How dare I blaspheme the name of Gene Stoner?
Let me explain: because of the mandatory buffer tube, an AR stock can never fold out of the way. And because of its rear charging handle, the AR can never have an adjustable-height comb for a perfect cheek weld with optics.
Don’t take me for an AR hater: I’ve tested several, I own one, and I’m currently waiting with mounting impatience for my second one to arrive at my FFL.
There are much better options out there if you absolutely must replace an HK stock. But I’m going to tell you, flat out, that you still shouldn’t.
Don’t Mess With The HK
The PTR-91 is a semi-auto version of the German HK91, which was based on the Spanish CETME. The CETME itself was designed after the experimental StG45 shown here. If you think you see a family resemblance from the StG44 all the way forward to the MP5, you’re right.
Internally, all these guns use a roller-locking breech to keep the chamber closed until after the fired bullet has left the muzzle. Externally, they all share a similar stamped-steel receiver construction and humpbacked appearance.
The StG44/45 sired a great family of firearms in the second half of the 20th century, but the line has lost its vigor. The CETME and the HK91 along with their smaller sibling the 5.56mm HK93, are no longer fielded by any major Western armies. The MP5 has served on into the 21st century by virtue of its extreme reliability, but the limitations of the full metal jacket 9x19mm cartridge have become glaringly obvious in the age of battlefield body armor.
The roller-locking design tends to produce exceptionally stiff recoil from full-powered rifle cartridges, and those rifles are also fairly heavy. Civilian shooters love the history around these guns, but hate that their fluted chambers make their once-fired brass unusable for reloading.
It may be functionally obsolete in comparison with the evolved Stoner platform and other newer gas-operated designs, but the HK pattern has earned its place in history. Let’s not do a George Lucas-style hack job on it, trying to make it hip and modern.
If you really need your hard-kicking, brass-chewing battle rifle to wear a collapsible stock, spend a few bills and find a surplus H&K OEM collapsing stock like this one. Is it comfortable? Hell no. Does it give a good cheek weld? Hell no. In fact it doesn’t give any cheek weld.
But it’s part of the history of the rifle, and you definitely wouldn’t shoot any HK91 for its wonderful ergonomics anyway.
Whether or not you like H&K rifles or AR-style stocks, I think we can all agree that this genetically-modified PTR-91 is an abomination in the eyes of Eugene Stoner and Ludwig Vorgrimler alike.
Yes, the time to use deadly force is when you see someone in a pickup truck, thats ok./// This person has the guts to bring up tm as an example of when not to shoot? Well, these guys get weeded out by the people they protect. I love it when a plan comes together, Randy
Technically, the PTR is an American made clone of the HK91, which is a semi auto variant of the G3.
This has been your daily firearms pedant service announcement.
What the heck? I’m not sure what Chris is worked up about. If someone was altering vintage G3s I’d _almost_ understand.
These are PTR-91s. The m4 buttstock may look a bit odd, but is a practical way to adjust pull between different sized family members, and for summer and winter clothing. It sure seems more practical than the HK version he endorses.
Ahhhhh if inly HKFan were here. You guys could swap stories about how original your HK guns are.
Utility > form. Keep your original. Great. Fantastic. Enjoy your bruised shoulder.
But if I want a better stock that offers *gasp* cheek weld and wasn’t made for a 5 year old with freakishly large arms, I’ll get one.
Or
I bet FN FAL owners didn’t complain….. :D. Superior design in my opinion anyways.
I had a H&K 91 the stock is too short for it ,added on too, great strong rifle but it’s also hard to use the sights too.
HK91 I had was an ergonomic nightmare. I’m 6’5″ tall and built like a Mac truck. I’m not one to shy away from recoil, but the stock is much too short and to obtain proper sight picture meant placing my cheek in contact with that stupid “hump” in the front of the butt stock. Each time I fired the thing, my eyeglasses were slammed into my cheek bone, leaving it bruised. I found it to be eminently unshootable! Traded it for Cowboy Action Shooting gear..two revolvers, a lever action, a derringer, and a coach gun.
The HK91 was derived from the CETME rather than the other way around? I learn something new every day.
Ze Germans were involved in inventing the CETME.
Ugh, the original collapsible stock on the G3 hurts, for some reason instead of a buttpad, HK put a meat tenderizer. Fun but painful, the good kind of hurt… 🙂
Working from memory here, but I recall the explicit design purpose of the A1 collapsible was to better facilitate launching grenades from an under-slung HK79.
Never having used it for its intended purpose, I would agree it falls far short in the ‘comfort’ category.
Looks like big gubmint is plenty worried. Some is also a show for the sheep. Trying to intimidate your boss only goes so far though, Randy
I slapped an M4 style collapsible stock on my AK because I needed an inexpensive, US made part that was long enough to make the rifle comfortable. I’m not a tiny, underfed Russian peasant, and I hate the short stocks on AKs. It’s more comfortable to shoot, both because it is longer, and because it is has a larger contact area with my shoulder.
Once again, Insurrection required, yet none occurs.
Why, you ask?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZSS3yxpnFU
Nice. Love the site. Wish the comment section was a little more modern though… Disqus maybe?
Just goes to show that with enough dough you can make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.Interestingly the most popular sport/comp guns in Canada are CZ shadows. Oh…And I Agree with C. Wesley above…
I shoot my PTR one handed with a Sig stabilizing brace. My delts and traps are hooooooge.
Damn Robert, you are scaring the kids with picture. Put it away.
Please pass this on to anyone who has been subject to this sort of abuse “under color of authority”:
42 U.S. Code § 1983 – Civil action for deprivation of rights
“Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.”
You can sue these SOBs individually.
From personal experience with the US Forest Service, you are dealing with people who say “that isn’t how we do things in MY Forest.” They do not believe that they are merely custodians of public lands – they own it, they rule it, and civilians are only there on the generous sufferance of the USFS. Same attitude may be found with the National Park Service, and with many fish cops. We are the serfs, they are the rulers, and the “public” land and resources thereon belong to the rulers.
Frankenstein Gun Of The Day…Hybrid Abomination
How about we pick a Gun Abomination of All Time?
I nominate Red Jacket’s Tommy Gun.
I better go hide my PTR-91 with its Magpul PRS stock from purists then, geeze.
Even purists would approve, sir: http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/de/hk-psg-1-e.html
Good, with a few possible changes in the next few months that would make it one of the best in the union.
In the Soviet of Hawai’i, gun owners are ranked just below pedophiles. A few years ago they raised the age of consent all the way up to 16; the felony for violating this law is one class below being caught with a single .22 cartridge in your pocket, never mind an actual firearm.
If you shoot an intruder in your home you are automatically arrested and charged with murder, In a Code Napoleon type of legal thinking, you must prove that the intruder was there to harm you… not just steal your stuff.
The state is listed as “may issue”. The reality is that it’s a “no way in hell” state.
The law says that you can only transport a gun to a gunsmith, a range or to go hunting. Since the public was kicked out of the only range on the island two years ago and I don’t hunt. I’m screwed… as was the intent.
Good. Better than most. Of course, if I venture south beyond NH, I’m screwed. NY, Mass and Connecticut await. Better to veer off into Vermont.
I’ll give Orygun a 9.
Aside from reciprocity, it’s pretty good.
Only a couple of things to improve in KS. First, IMHO it costs too much $$ (~$250) and takes too long (90 days) to get a concealed carry license, although if you have to take a class, and if they have to do a background check, that probably only covers expenses.
And while I can carry at my place of employment if I should so choose (gun free zone state university) without much more than a parking ticket fine, I would most certainly be terminated from my position for having it should I ever need to use it to save lives. We’re all just sitting ducks on campus.
On the other hand, I can walk into my FFL, buy whatever handgun they have that I like, and walk out with it strapped to my hip within 10 minutes. I have to remind myself that in some states that would be impossible.
Unfortunately, we gave the country Kathleen Sebelius, and although we were thrilled to see her go, the rest of you didn’t deserve that witch, and she’s doing way more damage where she’s at. Sorry.
needs a bad-ass soundtrack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSvD5SM_uI4
How much is that trigger? That’s the one thing I can’t stand about a few of my friends Glocks where they have polished the internals. The little safety bar inside the trigger rubs or snaps back on your finger and I’m left with a nice little red blister after only a couple mags. That trigger seems to fix the issue.
I’ve always been in favor of a centerline- mounted Ma Deuce (Semi-auto model is fine) in police cars for just such dangerous chase situations. They could rig up a HUD sight at the driver’s position that corrects for the offset.
I’d like to point out the 27% time to crime figure. They are deliberately trying to make it seem as though over one in four guns in texas have been used in a crime. But the number is actually a percentage of the guns used in crimes which had a ‘short’ time to crime. Kinda like when 98% of the guns found at mexican crime scenes which could be traced to america were…traced to america.
I think the “six-shooter” language is just the result of Fox being lazy and republishing an AP report.
As for the substance, yeah…it’s nice to be moving in the right direction around here. OC was offered up in the 2013 bi-annual legislative session, but the committee chairs, the speaker, and, really, Perry, didn’t put any meaningful weight behind it. Maybe now it’s got the momentum for 2015.
Since when is 150 lumens “insanely bright”? The TLR-1 HL is 630. Could that be a typo?
Libturds.
I’ve got some toast I’d like to sell you.
Keep checking out various PTRs at lgs, but I’m thinking FAL for the same price built, or less if I buy the receiver and have a buddy who worked as a gunsmith, put it together.
As far as a”purist” standpoint? The PTR isn’t a true HK anyway, it would be akin to a Taiwanese version of the Colt M4-“looks the same,shoots the same, BUT NOT the same”. This is a .308 plinker and if I,had to depend on .308, I have a tried and true M1A
Scout rifle…..
A Springfiield Armory Inc M1A is no more a “true” Springfield Armory rifle than a PTR 91 is an HK. That’s a terrible argument. Springfield Armory Inc bears no relation to the Springfield Armory of Garand and M14 fame. At least PTR uses Former HK tooling and drawings.