By data venia
New York Governor Cuomo Jan 2013: “Forget the extremists. It’s very simple. No one hunts with an assault rifle. No one needs 10 bullets to kill a deer!”
Hardly a sympathetic figure to gun owners, and even the sheriffs of NY had/have issue with the legislation, but that sentiment took off. I heard it on news programs. I heard it in face to face conversations with my mother in law. I read it in virtual discussions with friends from different countries. “Why do you NEED it?” . . .
There were attempts to show why we did need large magazines, but to the honestly unconvinced they rang hollow. It simply seems excessive or paranoid to most people. Our neighbors and friends. Good people whose only crime is ignorance. Not stupidity. Not anything but honest ignorance that we once shared. If your information on guns comes from the media it’s completely reasonable to think that a 30 round magazine translates to 30 seconds of sustained automatic fire, usually wielded by a steroid enhanced and borderline sociopathic ‘hero’. All things considered it’s a compliment that we aren’t lumped alongside him.
However reasonable this question seems on its face, it is ultimately a question based on dangerous reasoning. Not necessarily wrong reasoning, but dangerous reasoning with far reaching implications.
Consider how widely that reasoning can be spread. How widely it MUST be spread if it is as compelling as is argued. Why do we NEED profanity? Why do we NEED to be able to hurt others with our words? Why do we NEED to criticize people and institutions? Why, ultimately, do we NEED freedom of speech? Have not other venerable civilizations existed without freedom of speech?
Further, there’s no reason why it should not be applied to the other amendments in the bill of rights. If you are a law abiding citizen, why would you NEED protection from unreasonable searches? If you are innocent, the search will not incriminate you. Why would you NEED privacy? Particularly when that is not even an explicit right, but is instead a recognized ‘penumbra’ (a half shadow) cast by the bill of rights. Come right down to it, why do you need a vote? Democracy, historically speaking, is a new idea. Millions have lived, and millions continue to live, without a vote.
If the ‘pen is mightier than the sword’ and ‘voting can change the world’, then we must apply this reasoning. These rights are too powerful to be so laxly regulated. The safety of all of us , of our nation as a whole, is at risk. Nor should we stop there. Why do we NEED public libraries? Ideas are dangerous things that can and have caused the deaths of thousands. Do we really NEED to make them so easy to access?
As I said, I’m not a fan of how things play out if that is the reasoning underlying policy decisions.
Now we do have limits on freedom of speech. It’s a crime to falsely yell ‘FIRE’ in a crowded theater. Because, in that case, it poses a direct, clear, and significant threat to others. Thus it is reasonable to warrant limiting the right. It’s my belief that restrictions on firearms have to coincide with that line of reasoning.
So the question then is not “do you need more than 10 rounds?” the question is “Will limiting people to 10 rounds or less get rid of a clear, direct, and significant threat?”
And the answer is “no”. Gary Kleck did an excellent peer review paper called “mass shootings in schools the worst possible case for gun control” in which he argues that if you look at mass shootings-the average length of the shooting and shots fired- the shooters have ample time to reload even if they were not using semi-automatic firearms. The recent Navy Yard shooting tragically proved this point in reality. The navy yard shooter’s pump action shotgun has a standard magazine with a 4 shell capacity + 1 in the chamber. This didn’t hamper him because he was an offensive shooter. He easily reloaded as he went. Banning high capacity magazines then does not remove or even reduce the threat of mass shootings.
The answer is still “no” if you wish to examine individual deaths with firearms. This tack is bit disingenuous as the rhetoric on large capacity magazines has been centered around mass shootings. However, entertaining the question in this context does not change the answer. Jack Levin Ph.D. noted in an interview with BBC that the vast majority of shootings in the US are using handguns and result with “One bullet, one body.” Banning high capacity magazines then won’t affect the vast majority of these shootings either.
We could at this point get into a discussion of Risk and ‘Public Health’. We could ask how much of a risk it is reasonable for individuals to prepare for and the possible risk that their preparedness introduces into the wider population. We could entertain the hypotheticals. We could face the uncomfortable question of “who decides when the risk is high enough?” We could discuss the paradox of the individual and the group.
We could delve and debate these questions. They are important and relevant. Ultimately though, that is not the question we face when thinking about gun policy. We have a rights based society-not unlimited rights- but rights that can only be limited to address direct, clear, and significant threats to others. The question is whether a given limitation on a right meets that burden.
We don’t live in a society where before individuals can act they must justify the need to act in that manner. I don’t think we want to live in that society. But when we use the reasoning “what do you need it for?” we are asking to switch to that society.
I’d rather we didn’t make that change. And I believe you would rather not follow that line of reasoning to where it leads either.
There will always be people who pay to have their oil changed. There will always be people who pay to have every simple medial job done in their lives with little to no thought about the task at hand. If you need to pay someone to modify or fix a Saiga 12, then you have no business changing out the stock on a fudd gun. These are simple guns. Very easy to make reliable.
I admit that you do have to modify these out of the box, and as sad and irritating as that is, these guns are imported in a manner that was never ever going to work. Testing these firearms in the “close to stock as possible” configuration was setting you up for failure. Sure some of these will run fine in their “sporterized” (butchered) state. That however is no where near “stock”. Stock would be in it’s original state with the FCG moved forward and a pistol grip, not the fudd style grip.
As far as 3 gunners, and putting words in these articles like “Protip” (laughable), that has nothing to do with whether or not those people possess the basic firearms knowledge to get something as simple as a Saiga 12 to run reliably. Basic firearms knowledge is all one needs to make these things do anything that your Mossberg 930 SPX or any other tube fed shot gun will, and so much more, and at a much cheaper price point than most other semi-auto shotguns.
If you own a dremel and can use a sanding drum, rubber abrasive wheel, and some jeweler’s rouge on a felt wheel, you can make this firearm truly reliable and butter smooth. Do not let people tell you that it will take thousands of dollars and a gunsmith to get it to cycle even the low brass stuff reliably. All you need to do is make sure the gas system is correct. Check the port holes in the barrel, then make sure the gas block isn’t partially covering those holes. Once the gas system is squared away, all you have to do is hand cycle the thing to find any unnecessary friction that could be robbing your action of the necessary momentum to travel fully rearward, and then strip off another round and go fully into battery. It’s usually the big ass hammer.
When you convert them and put that Tapco hammer in the shotgun, you are basically just putting a modified AKM hammer into your shotgun. That means that your newly installed hammer was meant for a rifle that has a much smaller bolt, and bolt carrier profile. I found out by trial and error. After polishing the bolt, carrier, receiver rails, and then re-profiling them as well. Checking constantly to make sure that the carrier was still capable of engaging the hammer into the disconnector.
Just when I was starting to get pissed, I hand cycled the weapon again, noticing that when I pulled the charging handle back, and then released it, that the only place where I was seeing an extreme amount of friction and resistance, even after doing all that I had already done, was the huge Tapco hammer.
If you do the same thing with your Saiga, you’ll notice where the friction is. It’s not rocket science, and it’s not a hard or expensive fix. I just had to completely reshape my new Tapco hammer. I used a micrometer and took a small amount of metal off the hammer face, and then softened the angles on the hammer. Once again, testing the whole time, to ensure the disconnector was engaging when the carrier passed over it.
I ended up having to hand fit my hammer to my carrier, and all the other re-profiling and polishing I did was just icing on the cake. It just took a little research and a dremel with a sanding drum, abrasive buffs, and some jeweler’s rouge on a felt wheel to get mine sorted. All you have to do is stop and think how the firearm would have worked if it was actually Russian stock. Not this butchered crap we get here.
To anyone willing to ignore the stupidity, laziness, and utter bias of this article and the people who commented on it. You can have a truly reliable shotgun. All you need is basic knowledge of firearms and a dremel. Do not let these people keep you from buying one and doing some work yourself. Like I said, they are extremely simple firearms and very easy to work on.
If you decide to buy one, don’t do like I did, and don’t just go converting it without shooting it first. The original hammer that is in the shotgun will be at least a little smaller than the Tapco hammer that ships with most of the conversion kits. Fire it in that configuration first and see if it has enough gas to cycle. Then check for friction by slowly charging the weapon by hand.
If you decide to convert it. Then do it yourself. All you need is a cold chisel, a drill and some bits, and some flat black engine paint and some basic hand tools. There are instructional videos online to help you, and they are very straightforward and easy for even a novice to comprehend. If you do you’ll have better understanding of how the firearm works, and you’ll be able to repair or modify the firearm in any way you like in the future, without the need for a gunsmith.
I’m no gunsmith, but I am a firearms collector and enthusiast. I figured it out, and so can every single person who buys one, with a little patience and some know how. I truly do understand why people dislike having to modify a “stock” shotgun to get it to cycle reliably, but as I said before, the configuration you get it in, is nowhere near stock. It was an afterthought just to get it imported into the country. To those of you who know, you just know, and you’ll have a super badass shotgun, that’s as reliable as any other semi-auto shotgun out there. To those of you that don’t, just read my whole post. I wish I could have stumbled upon a post like this when I first bought mine. Maybe I would have had mine running more reliably a whole lot quicker.
Good luck, happy shooting, and stay safe.
Maybe you should tell him he doesn’t NEED his huge salary to do his job. Or his car or his house. Or his security. Have him walk through bad neighborhoods to get to his work.
Then ask him if he feels he needs more or less than 10 bullets to feel safe going about his business.
Take away his NEEDS and see how well he functions. Sorry but we NEED our firearms so long as criminals and the possibility of tyranny are out there. And last time I checked, there are no guarantees in life. So let me keep my gun and my bullets and you mind your own business. If you’re worried about mass shootings, donate to better mental health reform and better security in schools. Done.
Get rid of criminals and ensure me the people will guns (police / military) will never turn on me, and sure, that’ll be the day.
But sorry, the world is full of idiots on both sides. The only person I can trust when the chips are down is myself.
And that’s a necessity I can’t live without. Self-reliance.
I’m so tired of the first amendment analogy about yelling “fire” in a crowded movie theatre. Yes, you can in fact yell “fire” any time you want, but it’s illegal to do so under certain circumstances.
Just like it’s already illegal to shoot a bunch of people in a movie theatre.
As I recall, we have a Bill of Rights, not a Bill of Needs. Need, as I have pointed out to my better half numerous times (“Why do you need another 1911?”), is not the engine that drives our economy. A communist dictatorship can tell you what you need, and perhaps even supply that need, but it does not result in overall happiness. And being a devout American at heart, I fervently pursue that happiness.
I will drink to that.
You wouldn’t happen to live in southeast Austin would you…somewhere around the Maple Run neighborhood would you? I know that fireplace.
1. New York Governor Cuomo Jan 2013: “Forget the extremists. It’s very simple. No one hunts with an assault rifle. No one needs 10 bullets to kill a deer!”
When you read this you have to pronounce it “Dee-aaah”, that douchebaggy NYer way like Marisa Tommi in My Cousin Vinny.
2. It’s not the Bill of Needs, it’s the Bill of Rights, no one arguably “needs” anything more than air, water, food, and shelter. Someone’s feelings as to what my needs are holds no irrelevance to what my rights are.
Good luck with your hearing, and keep your chin up.
I am so sorry to hear of your predicament. I share a somewhat similar set of circumstances. I’ve been disarmed for almost 6 years. I’ve tried to patiently work within the system to regain my rights just like you are. I’m hopeful that your petition is granted. Thank you for bringing your situation to our attention. Knowing that you’re fighting hard makes it easier for me to keep doing the same.
Laws must be passed to punish people who make these false allegations like his ex girlfriend did. She should spend serious jail time for this. I get so tired of hearing things like “why would a woman lie about such things and women are emotional”. Women have to be held accountable for everything they do and say just as a man would be.
Where the hell is Ralph ?
I think I’ve identified the source of the Guv’s strategy.
WHAT THEY SAY
From the Violence Policy Center website:
“The weapons’ menacing looks, coupled with the public’s confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun— can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons. In addition, few people can envision a practical use for these weapons.”
WHAT THEY MEAN
The American public is generally ignorant about guns, so we can lie to them very effectively by equating “ugly” rifles like the AR-15 as “the same thing as the Army M-16”, after all they look alike, don’t they? That is enough “proof” for these stupid people. The “confusion” of the public about guns is not to be eliminated by telling the truth. That would ruin our plans to advance our goals for more useless “gun control”. We must cultivate this public ignorance about guns, and exploit this ignorance as much as we can to fool the public into thinking the way we want them to think.
We can stress the point that these guns are not good for deer hunting, which is what most urban citizens think of as the only “good purpose” for guns. We will ignore the fact that the Armalite Rifle 15 (AR-15) and the Army M-16 both fire a “varmint” cartridge civilian developed for hunting woodchucks before it was adopted by the Military. Of course we will not mention any other “lawful uses”, such as target shooting. Just keep repeating, over and over, “NOBODY NEEDS A MACHINE GUN/ASSAULT RIFLE/10 ROUND MAGAZINE TO HUNT DEER”.
I hope everything goes well at the hearing.
In Arkansas, see pretty gun, take background check, pay the man, walk out. Smile at the sign that says, EMPLOYEE OF THE MONTH with obamas pic.
“However, Philadelphia has typically been given more leeway in terms of local laws due to its size. For example, their concealed and open carry laws are different from the rest of the state. However, it’s possible that this new law might be over the boundary of what they can pass and come under scrutiny from the state AG.”
That’s still part of state law, not an allowance for Philadelphia to create more stringent gun laws.
Specifically Pennsylvania law allows for permit-free open carry on foot, except in “cities of the first class”. This is defined as any city with more than a million residents, and Philadelphia is the only city in Pennsylvania of that size. You can still open-carry in Philly so long as you possess a Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms.
Worst cameraman… EVER.
Here is the reply I got from my dealer after forwarding the article:
“Yes, I am well aware of the E Form. What the article doesn’t say is that it was only forms that were done during a BETA test. And they were Form 1s. The “rumornet” strikes again!”
I like the rumornet! That describes TTAG to a tee!
As a CT resident I can assure you that this guy is looked at as a complete buffoon by all but the most hardcore liberals in the state. So yeah he’s probably considered a viable presidential candidate for the democrats. Headline in the local paper the other day said theres been @3300 “assault weapons” registered so far. Yeah I’m gonna say cops aren’t going to want to rely on that database too much.
He is Russian, give him a good stiff shot of vodka and they will get another 20 years out of him!
The Gun is an amazing book, to which I only confess reading half(I was 15 in my defense). It was the first firearms book I ever read. Followed by Sweeny’s book of the AR-15.
still one of my favorte weapons I would take it over any AR any day
My B.S. in psychology has gotten me exactly that in this world: B.S.
BUT, I can thank my college education for making me aware of exactly this kind of behind-the-scenes mischief that goes on whenever ANYONE says ANYTHING to me about ANYTHING.
My sympathy for cops invading people’s homes is right there below the spiders and ants that invade my home; at leat the bugs aren’t liable to shoot me. I don’t see the value in making home invasions safe for the police. I prefer that they only do so in very rare circumstances.
Just about every time someone has tried to legalize non-drinking bar carry I see the antis making the same stupid argument about “Well who is going to check” or “Will waiters have to enforce the law?” All of these completely ignore the fact that it is already illegal to drink and carry, so who is enforcing the law *now*?
If all rights can be restricted then have Piers Morgan undergo a background check, and pre-approve all his public statements.
Returning vets are being stripped of their 2nd Amendment righs by the 10’s of thousands. Watch the NRA they wil negotiate our rights away.
Bought my T&E version, first change was a Geissele 3-Gun trigger (which I have in my Colt 901 as well). Somewhere around here I’ve got a PRS stock that I’ve used on other guns and I’ll probably put on the Ruger. Loved my T&E SCAR, but when it came time to write the check it was just too darned much money. Not crazy about the hand guard, but I like it better than the Colt’s “monolithic” design.
Michael B
Did this part of the article make anyone else’s head hurt?
“Sheriffs who refuse to enforce gun laws around the country are in the minority, though no statistics exist.”
So let me see if I read that right: you’re saying that the sheriffs who refuse to enforce gun laws are in the minority, but in the same breath you admit you have absolutely no proof to that very claim whatsoever?
This… this is journalism?
It’s a minimum wage job. Who shoots up a car for a minimum wage job? Prisons aren’t full enough.
There are days I can’t help but feel I should’ve gone to a bigger engineering school….