Previous Post
Next Post


The way I read it, Officer Darren Wilson’s account of the Michael Brown shooting paints a picture of a pissing contest. While it looks like a good shoot, I don’t think Officer Wilson did much in the way of de-escalating the situation before it spiraled out of control. Once Brown mouthed off, Officer Wilson came down on Brown like a ton of bricks, including, by his own admission, swearing at him. I reckon Wilson’s behavior set something in motion he couldn’t control – until he could, leaving Brown dead on the pavement. One thing is for sure: the Ferguson police failed to follow protocol in the shooting’s aftermath . . .

When Ferguson, Mo., police officer Darren Wilson left the scene of the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown, the officer returned to the police station unescorted, washed blood off his hands and placed his recently fired pistol into an evidence bag himself.

What’s more (or less), investigators failed to tape the first interview with Wilson. As points out – several times – that’s not the done thing for officer-involved shootings.

The bungled post-shooting forensics and unrecorded interview don’t necessarily cast doubt on Wilson’s story. But they do reveal a highly unprofessional police department. And that tells you something about the Ferguson PD’s ability to serve and protect its community in a way that engenders trust and cooperation.

Don’t get me wrong: I’m not hinting at institutional racism, or trying to remove responsibility for Brown’s death from Brown himself or Officer Wilson. A Ferguson PD that’s UN multicultural and Mayberry RFD friendly would still butt heads with some seriously bad actors. I’m simply saying that the fish stinks from the head down.

There’s no indication of that the PD’s taking disciplinary action against the officers who let Wilson drive himself to the station, wash off, dump his gun in a bag and speak to investigators without recording the conversation. If a Chief of Police lets his or her officers get away with sloppy police work then sloppy police work he or she shall have. Mistakes will be made. Some may prove fatal, for the police and the public. That is all.

Previous Post
Next Post


  1. It must be nice to have the armchair luxery of second guessing and Monday morning quarterbacking. I love how you guys who have never worn the uniform know all about the job.


      Why even bother having a protocol? Just make it up in the heat of the moment, or not. Everyone will forgive you because, you know, stuff happens. When the S hits the fan you fall back on your training, or lack thereof.

        • I certainly couldn’t wear the uniform because I am not a psychopath who shoots dogs, people, and drives recklessly with impunity.

        • That whole IQ ceiling thing would disqualify many. Congrats for falling into the group that “makes” the cut.

        • I’m getting sick of hearing that IQ cap garbage. Yes, I know it’s a real thing, and that’s ridiculous too, but it’s not an industry standard. In fact, I haven’t heard of any departments outside of the original story which have anything like that. In the Seattle area, many departments don’t want to look at applicants who don’t have a four year college degree.

          This is going to sound like bragging, which is why I haven’t posted it the first hundred times I’ve seen the IQ cap brought up, but I actually took the Mensa entrance test (which is an IQ test) and passed. My ASVAB test scores were damned high, too, and I signed as infantry anyway. Does that make me better than anyone? Of course not. But it didn’t stop me from getting hired as a cop, either.

        • “don’t have a four year college degree.

          Not taking away from your point, but having a four year college degree is no guarantee of above average IQ. It’s a bureaucratic criterion that has nothing to do with ability to be a cop.

          Having been in law enforcement, I can say from personal observation that the IQ meme has some merit. Is it a global hiring practice nationwide? I have no way of knowing. But, it is a thing that exists at least somewhat.

          I recall many conversations with the TO on my department (who administered the applicant testing) where he expressed frustration at the low scores that were accepted and that he was instructed to lob off the top third as “they won’t stick around.”

          So, rather than “best and brightest,” the hiring trend does seem to be at least “accept mediocrity.” That’s CERTAINLY true in firearms proficiency; it would be no surprise to find it in other areas of the screening process.

        • @ JR in NC, except you fail to realize that IQ tests have racial biasies… Meaning IQ scoring is either complete BS or proves racial dominance theory correct. Take your pick. When examined, IQ scores prove our stereotypes about racial intelligence true. That’s right, blacks always score the lowest, followed by Latinos, followed by whites, followed by Asians, followe by Jews as being the most intelligent. Is this really true? Or is the IQ standards simply wrong?

        • Senator, have you ever heard the phrase “correlation does not imply causation”?

          Yes, it is true that IQ correlates with race. It also correlates with income, and many other things. Ultimately, what they found out is that when all other factors are accounted for, what it correlates with is the number of calories in children nutrition. If you don’t eat enough food, or you eat crappy food, your brain doesn’t develop as much.

        • @19th , exactly my point. I’m not arguing that race correlates intelligence. I’m implying that the IQ standard is outdated and ineffective and therefore should not be applied to real intelligence levels. As you suggest yourself, mere caloric intake can contribute to differentauls in scores. So, would you hire personell based on caloric intake?

        • “@ JR in NC, except you fail to realize that IQ tests have racial biasies”

          What in the ever-loving HELL are you talking about?

          Nowhere in my post was I did I even mention IQ testing. I was talking about nascent intelligence, though on second thought, the paradox of trying to do that in the present context is apparent.

        • Senator, I did not say that IQ is meaningless. It’s certainly not – it correlates pretty well with the capacity to do challenging intellectual tasks. In that sense, if a job requires such, requiring a certain IQ level makes perfect sense.

        • The intent of a 4yr degree in most any business is/was to prevent hiring of immature 18yr old dumbasses (see also the dead bonehead from Ferguson). Unfortunately today most 22yr olds with a college degree got a BS in BS and are largely as immature as they were at 18.

      • I like how Robert Farago thinks he’s smarter than a grand jury. Interesting… He’s always arguing against statism and the “I know better than you” politicking of the Left yet he seems to employ the same set of logic at his will…..

        • Farago treats cops like Shannon Watts treats gun owners. “We dont want to get rid of police, we just want more common sense policing”. Which, in reality, means he wants police neutered and unable to do our jobs because of bureaucratic red tape. Anti-police agitprop, right Bob?

        • Wow! That is quite the arrogance!

          I like facts so, could you please tell me exactly what you believe Ofc. Wilson said that was so antagonistic and confrontational as to cause citizen Brown to reach through the driver’s side window of a police car, assault and officer of the law, and attempt to remove the officer’s side arm? As I understand it, citizen Brown was in the middle of the road and was directly ordered to the sidewalk by Ofc. Wilson.

          Let’s try a little exercise. If I am a sloppy LEO with distain for those in the community I patrol, driving down the road and I see a large, black, male with a handful of Swisher’s walking down the center of the road, I’m going to order the jaywalker to get to the side of the road. In my rudest voice I say, “Hey lard-ass! Get your black butt over onto the sidewalk before I arrest you for jaywalking! Do it now, douche bag!” Is this language provoking enough to make you want to kill me?

          I’m going to assume you know the following facts:
          1. attempting to kill someone is wrong and against the law,
          2. assaulting a LEO is stupid and against the law, and
          3. you would be facing the possibility of being shot to death if the LEO felt there was an imminent threat to his life or the safety of the citizens of the community.
          Having these ideas in the back of your mind, are you still willing to assault a LEO by reaching into a police cruiser, start throwing punches, and try and take the gun right off of the LEOs hip just because of our conjectured example of what a piss-poor cop might have said?

          If you say yes, then you think like a criminal thug and are more likely to end up dead or in prison than if you would have said no.

          Stick to the facts when writing your stories. State upfront when you are stating an opinion and don’t try to pass your opinion off as fact.

          Respectfully, Rich.

        • Really? Where, exactly, is he saying the GJ got it wrong? He is saying the procedures AFTER the shoot were piss poor, and evidence says they were. Or do you have evidence to the contrary? Lets see it. nOr is it simply that you don’t like cops and wanted to see Wilson get burned? Enlighten us.

        • I’m just curious (and lazy today):

          Does anyone know what the toxicology results were on Brown?

          Was he high on some substance, or just high on his own charismatic, invincible omnipotence?

        • Yes Brown was very high 0n weed , high count in his blood , and they think he had used other drugs in past too.

      • “JR in NC, except you fail to realize that IQ tests have racial biasies”

        What in the ever-loving HELL are you talking about? Nowhere in my post did I mention IQ testing. I’m talking about nascent intelligence, though it dawns on me that there is a certain paradox in trying to do that in the present context.

        Save your BS for somewhat ignorant of the world enough to buy into off-topic nonsense rants about nothing.

        Edit: Not sure what happened; was replying to this post:

    • “Have never worn the uniform?” Seriously?

      Police training – and ‘the uniform’ – do not convey any special kind of discernment or otherworldly powers. Police officers are public employees – nothing more, nothing less. There are competent ones and there are misfits. And we, as citizens, have every right to question our public employees.

      BTW: your point would be more impressive if you knew how to use spell check.

      • So you’re the spelling police? Voice to text on a phone. You get what you get. When was the last time you had someone, at work, punch you or kick you? So yeah. You don’t get it and neither do the other cop haters. The posts here are getting further and further from guns on the truth.

        • @dano — Spare us the sob story, pal. You’re not even the only one in harm’s way. Far from it, in fact. There are truck drivers in the Army that see more combat than the infantry grunts. Hell, I’ll even go so far as to bet my bottom dollar that I’VE probably seen more action than you as a jet mechanic in the Navy. If you don’t like the spotlight being shown on your fellow officers then I suggest that you start policing your own — FOR ONCE — and stop defending bad actors and piss-poor police work in general. Otherwise, we start doing it for you because you’ve proven yourselves wholly incapable of doing the job yourselves.

          The citizens are always the first on the scene and are victimized more often and in far more horrific ways than the police are, ever have been, or ever will be. Get over yourself, please.

          We regularly commend the good deeds of the police on the blog. If you don’t see that then 1.) you’re obviously not a regular reader and are simply ignorant or 2.) you’re deliberately ignoring it just so you have an excuse to piss and moan about how — as the public face of your government no less — are under the microscope which is exactly how it should be in the first place anyway. Don’t like it? Tough shit. Turn in your badger, your gun, and hang up that uniform because you obviously can’t hack it, either.

          No, the only one wondering away from the truth about guns IS YOU. Dot. Period. End of story.

        • @Exedrine – “I’ve probably seen more action than you”-

          Yes, the unending childish Who’s Dicks Bigger contest over who’s “seen more shit” continuously fought on the internet. Mature.

      • Well, said. Shine a bright enough light on corruption and bad or incompetent procedures and the you-couldn’t-possibly-understand apologists start singing in three-part harmony. Spare us, please.

    • Yes, we should never question the armed agents of the state given the power to enact deadly force upon the people. I mean, that’s what freedom is all about, right?

      • Well… As someone who “wears the uniform,” the mistakes that were made quite frankly shouldn’t have been. Regardless of whether the jurisdiction is NYC or Mayberry, death investigations need to be handled with the upmost thoroughness and attention to detail. Letting him wash his hands is an FTO level mistake…

        As for the “cop block” comment, TTAG’s reaction to the no bill has been anything but cop blockish. I think the blog has made it pretty apparent that it was a case of self defense

        • I tend to agree. Some significant unforced errors made. These errors don’t really do much to change my opinion of what probably happened but they shouldn’t have been made.

        • Would someone please enlighten me what evidence may have been compromised by Wilson washing his hands and placing the gun into the evidence bag? The fact that Wilson and Brown were the only actors and that only one gun was used is not disputed.

        • Chain of evidence was broken. According to the left that means Wilson is guilty of crucifying MLKjr, don’t you know!

        • “Would someone please enlighten me what evidence may have been compromised by Wilson washing his hands and placing the gun into the evidence bag?”

          Gun shot residue analysis looks at ratio’s of residue on different hands and different portions of hands, not just to see if it is present.

          Washing his hands pretty much destroyed that evidence, or at least its probative value. It would be really good to have physical evidence that could possible show which hand, how and where (on the gun) Wilson was holding it when it fired. As many shots as he fired…may not help much, but it is the principle that counts.

          Cops are trained specifically to not allow shooting suspects to wash their hands before GSR samples can be taken. Perhaps they were taken before he washed his hands in this case; I sure don’t know. But, the implication is that perhaps he washed his hands before GSR and other possible evidence (Brown’s skin, etc…that would show a struggle).

          As for bagging his own gun, that probably does not really matter at much, except that perhaps one does not know what was done to the weapon between the shooting and bagging it. It should have been taken from him immediately after the shooting (that is, after the he was “secured”). So, it’s probably the TIMING of the bagging more than that he dropped it into an evelop himself.

          Hope this helps….there’s a LOT more to it than just showing if they were in the car together. The physical evidence can help paint parts of the story as to what actually happened while they were together in the car.

    • Are your asserting that officer Wilson did, in fact, follow protocol? Or is your point that the Ferguson P.D. gets a pass for some reason?

      It doesn’t matter if we could or would wear “The Uniform™,” if a police force acts unprofessionaly they need to be called on it, and the right to criticize is not reserved solely to other officers.

      I’m guessing that you are an officer yourself, based in your comments. You seem to have the belief that police are in some way elite while using that apparent premise to rebuke criticism that a P.D. broke from proper procedure, when in fact they did just that. There is something wrong with seeing a certain group of people as elite while simultaneously using that eliteness as a basis to excuse them from the obligations and duty that elite status is based on.

      Police do not earn our respect by wearing a certain outfit or wearing a shiny piece of metal, or carrying a gun. They don’t even earn our respect by going willfully into dangerous situations or neighborhood where they are hated by default. The resurrect of the public is earned only by maintaining a high level of professionalism while doing the above.

      • ” . . .There is something wrong with seeing a certain group of people as elite while simultaneously using that eliteness as a basis to excuse them from the obligations and duty that elite status is based on. . .”

        Although it was usually stated in an artless and inarticulate manner, many citizens in Ferguson are saying pretty much the same thing. You had to listen for it, but amid the hands-up-don’t-shoot dissonance, were people who who felt that, regardless of what happened on that street, Wilson was going to walk away free and clear. Their complaints were about police practices and not necessarily about the shooting itself.

        • There’s an alternative. Not being mentioned by the media, or the “civil rights leaders” or by the public. The cops could ignore thugs and criminals like Brown, the Obama Administration could turn them into heroes and victims… Oh, wait, that’s already being done. Neighborhoods are being destroyed, businesses are being burned, people are being assaulted and shot, jobs are being destroyed (to be replaced by welfare, so no big loss).

    • Dano’s right. This blog has become a joke. The Monday morning armchair quarterbacking on here is worse than the analysists on Rodgers or Brady throws a few bad throws and all the sudden the season is out the window until next Sunday when they’re spot on and suddenly there’s nothing stopping them from the Super Bowl. Look, if officer Wilson had been a civilian, Farago and the rest of the cop bashers would be worshipping this guy as if he was an All American Hero. RF and everyone on here has an opinion, guess how much your opinion is worth? Jack Shit. Esspecailly comming from people with no training and experiance, and a general ignorance of reality on general.

      • What a curious comment. So far three LEO’s (one retired) and four attorneys have posted in this thread. At least one of the attorneys has vast experience examining LEO testimony and PD procedures. The lack of experience or knowledge you allege is a misplaced assumption. I actively support (and observe) my local PD, and they are excellent. 140 cops policing a township of 27,000. They haven’t killed anyone in years, though they have apprehended quite a few armed robbers. If I make a comment condemning police procedure, it is usually because I’m astounded by some of the PDs around the country, especially the propensity to rush their closing with the suspect, the rush to end a situation through the use of gun fire. I’m very pro good cop, and anti those that shoot too quickly because they get needlessly close to the suspect without thinking. Yes, most of that criticism is really directed at management.

        I really can’t understand why a critique of after-shooting procedure flaws bothers you. If you are a supervising LEO you will have conducted the same sort of “Monday morning quarterbacking” yourself many times.

        • Right…. Because you should believe all these people on the internet at face value. Just like how I’m a Senator. Total logic fail.

        • A lot of the regular commenters and post writers here know each other out in the “world”, and several of them are rather well known from other venues. Perhaps you should buy a clue since you clearly don’t have one otherwise. And no, I am not a cop or a lawyer, though I have interacted with some of each over the years.

        • And fruther more if this same sort of scrutiny was applied to a civilian DGU he would be a no questions asked hero and you’d have nothing to say right? Yeah- Monday morning quarter backing.

        • Wow, you really do have your panties in a twist. Whats wrong? You get busted for improper procedure, or corruption?

        • Remember that cops are civilians too, but for regular citizen defensive shootings, the standard is lower in terms of things like de-escalation and so forth. Whereas one might be able to legitimately say a cop should have tried to de-escalate a situation when they didn’t, with a normal person who doesn’t do that, it is more understandable because they may not have that kind of training.

      • Wow. My department is trying to get back to 131 officers, but as of the last census our population was somewhere north of 89,000.

        • Yes, the ratio is good. That’s one reason why there is little violent crime, and not much robbery. Oddly, though a suburb, we have the third largest PD in PA, after Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. On the other hand, we border Philadelphia, and that is where most (nearly all) burglars and robbers here come from, so patrolling is active and the detective division is fairly deep. The residents are, on average, well-educated, affluent, and cooperative with police. I think in my neighborhood alone three households have used firearms to help apprehend would-be burglars or fleeing felons. These events discourage hoods, who seem to tell their friends “don’t go there.” The PD is supportive of armed homeowners and those who carry with licenses. Still, for the LEOs it’s a good gig, who are well-paid to police fairly civilized residents. The major push is to keep hard drugs away from the kids.

    • Right, because shooting somebody and trying to cover their asses up means you know what it takes to “wear the uniform”. Because shooting a protester in the head and not even filing a incident report is stellar uniform performance, perfect city representation!

      Give me a fvcking break, you boot licking cocksucker. Its called accountability. Learn the fvcking meaning of the word.

      I hope there are more riots.

    • I love how you guys who have never worn the uniform know all about the job.”

      Yeah well I DID wear the uniform and I DID do the job. Loved it, best job in the world. However, I have read stuff like this on several sites. NOt everything on the Internet is true but when you see the same stuff in several non related places well, that is what is referred to as a clue by those who have worn the uniform.
      If the info in the opening post is correct, it calls into question the professionalism of the entire department at all phases from hiring to retirement. I think shooting unarmed suspects should engender greater scrutiny and skepticism than armed. Don’t really see the reason for it in most of the cases. I don’t know if Wilson escalated the situation but I do know that police generally do not like their authority challenged in ANY way. It leads to bad results. Anyhow, yes I have some reservations about the investigation and Wilsons actions generally.

    • I find this Psycho Cop/Cop Hater debate a bit disappointing in regard to the generalities used by the extremes of both sides. Did you guys buy the broad brushes you are using to paint the other side from Bloomberg? This is nutz. I don’t know if it’s an illustration of hypocrisy or human nature. Maybe there’s no difference.

  2. Yes, FPD did botch this, they took two months to not charge Wilson for this legit shoot. Glad the “press” figured that out.

  3. I read that WAPO article this am. Your bbq, here, RF, and I am a big fan.
    On this Day I say thank you for your unrelenting courage in expressing your opinions, on a wide range of gun culture related topics.

    Me, personally, I am gonna let more experienced leos and attorneys weigh in nationally about state of the art best practices and standards in small police forces, and that will take time.

    I simply dont trust WAPO to tell the truth, and those 5000 pages released by prosecutor are too much for this newb to evaluate.

    Not to go too far OT, but maybe since the SRM™ won’t do it, maybe it would help if more bloggers point to root causes, and the inequalities foisted on urban black communities in selective gun rights law, and legal permitting, by their masters on the Progtard Plantations.

    That both speaks to one of the Truths About Guns, and simply ignores the Narrative, that is so easy for the cool kids to regugitate, rather than be brave, and look at the facts.

    Here is an example:

    • With respect to Illinois’s concealed carry law, it was mind boggling watching the bill evolve in the last couple of weeks before it passed. Chicago Democrats kept pushing to increase the fee, from $40 to $80 to $150, while increasing the training hours from 8 to 16. Sure seemed like an intentional effort to disarm the poor and minorities. But, you know, big city Democrats can’t be racists.

      • I looked into getting an non-resident Illinois permit. Adding up the costs I stopped when I was closing in on $1,000. For a slightly younger me that would have been a month’s pay. Party of the poor my fuzzy ***.

      • Slightly off-topic: JeffR, did you have Greenhalgh for Criminal Procedure. As I go over the transcripts from the GJ, I can’t help but hear his voice….

  4. they also forgot to make Wilson go and kneel in front of St Mike’s parents and allow them to dole out his punishment for killing their college student.

  5. Robert, you are covering this from the exact same stance as your former employers. You preach at your readers, stating your opinion as gospel. You try to come off as impartial and unbiased, but react with emotion and hatred for law enforcement.
    Your site has the highest readership of all the gun blogs, and you have a powerful podium from which you can spout your political half truths. The politcal post on this site have gotten so out of hand, and have turned more than a few of you regular readers away from TTAG.
    I know that you may not really care what anyone thinks of your stance. However, I for one, can no longer stomach reading your posts. I truly enjoy reading this sites coverage of actual guns, gear, and training, but those have become so few and far between. I am truly dissapointed, and will no longer be a reader.

    Happy Thanksgiving.

    • I love how you take any sort of criticism of law enforcement as outright hatred. God forbid we actually hold armed agents of the state accountable.

      • Agree. A lot of bad cop sand bad departments get too many free passes. Some of the local po-po have taken drugs, beaten wives, shot animals, violated numerous traffic laws, and others.

    • Josh, I’ve been reading here since aboug the second month TTAG started. What I like about TTAG is what the mission statement says, covering all aspects of the gun culture. The gun reviews here are best for me because they are un-biased, and from the perspective of what a relatively new user would find useful. Plus the wide range of opinion by more experienced users, that is so generously shared, gunsmiths, street cops, operators, trainers.

      That is not unique, however, for as you know you can gets all.sorts of reviews, ranging from youtubers, to really specialized sites, elsewhere.

      What is unique, is how RF and staff have managed the dance of aggregation, and linking, along with content from original thinking, their own, and others. Liberal writers like Dan Baum, outside, and up-and-comer gunners like Nick, Tyler, and RF himself, to salty old dogs ho have forgotten more about guns, and life, than I even know I want to know, like Ralph, Dean, the Rabbi,, and others.

      I don’t always agree with opinions here, but for sure I dont want to jam mine down anyone’s throat or delude myself into thinking there should be a “party line” on any one topic. There is WAY too much of that elsewhere in the blogosphere, and anti-gunners would like nothing better than to imagine that TTAG is some narrow group of true believers. For then we would not be so much a threat to their own thought-police state online. Nor interesting, as proven by page views.

      TTAG is pretty diverse, but its all about choices, not political correct-ness. When someone says to me, “if you wont agree, then I am going to take my football and go home”, my initial reaction is, “don’t let the door hit you in thee a$$ on the way out.

      In your case, Josh, I hope you wiill be back. And ideally with a well thought out point by point rebuttal to RF if you think he is wrong. Thats how we roll here.

      P.S. my hunch is RF is crazy. Not because of his caliber choices, for everyone knows .40s&w is the one to rule them all, but no, I mean crazy like a fox….and doesn’t mind taking an unorthodox subject up, for sake of generating conversation…so, stick around. Have a cigar and a cold brew and dont take it so personal…

      • Id call that a Publius win in my book, I think some of the best discussion happens here because of the varying opinions and willingness to share them.

    • Don’t let the door hit you on your way out. RF’s blog-start your own pro-cop statist blog. Your hero’s are doing a bang-up job in Ferguson the last several days. I know I’m on my own in my town too. It also seems a low IQ and an inferiority complex go hand in hand with a lot of PO-leece…

    • When you have law enforcement act like a goddamned occupation force, you are damned right that people will find it unappealing. I am getting sick to fvcking death of people like you making excuses for police brutality and the ill treatment of your fellow american just because they have less in their bank account than you do or dont live in a 3k square foot home.

      You view it as hatred? I view it as guarding the crown jewel of liberty jealously.

      Go piss off. And I hope your thanksgiving is rotten.

      • Riddle me this, LC: Ferguson is more than 60% black. In such a case there is no reason why they should not have good citizen supervision of the PD, both through electing a mayor that keeps the force professional, and through direct citizen contact with the township administration.

        Why has this not come to be? How can a minority majority be so unhappy with its PD? My experience where I live is that a good force requires active citizen participation, projection of citizen values onto the PD. Why doesn’t this work in Ferguson?

        • Probably because “garbage in = garbage out” applies in this situation, which is why I’ve always argued that the citizens are certainly accountable.

          Of course, dont expect much citizenship in a area rife with impoverishment and crime. Which came first? the chicken or the egg?

        • So, you are saying blacks are incompetent to be involved in their own governance. Okey dokey, then. Who are you wanting to put in charge of them?

        • Poverty and crime guarentees bad govt, not race. Lack of good jobs is far more dangerous than many seem to realize, when young men feel hopeless and forgotten they tend to get violent. I think that Monday night could have turned into a bloodbath that may have ignited the country. But the question always seems to be one of race “who should be poor?” Rather than “how many should be poor”.
          We have too much poverty and if we can’t come up with some decent jobs soon things could get a lot worse…high crime and rage exaggerate the effects of bad policing in my view.

        • You have hit on the precise formula with which islam has always perpetuated itself. Real humans tend to refuse to accept this and war against those who try to force it on them. Problem is, in America, those suffering under this anti-human ideology have been convinced to war against the people who are trying to STOP what you describe. Leftist ideology ALWAYS lies, it ALWAYS bring poverty and misery and starvation and death to those it deceives.


        • “Leftist ideology ALWAYS lies, it ALWAYS bring poverty and misery and starvation and death to those it deceives.”

          As opposed to what? right ideology? like reganomics? corporatism? fascism?

    • However, I for one, can no longer stomach reading your posts.

      Josh, RF isn’t a gun, LEO procedure, or criminal law expert. He’s a journalist. What is unique about this site, really, is that after reading one of RF’s button-pushing posts, you get to respond, and your comment will stay up even if you vehemently disagree with his take…or mine. This may not seem like such a big deal, unless you consider the alternatives, like HuffPo, the NYT, and so forth.

      When RF’s post makes you want to throw up, you are supposed to barf up text that states your take. RF’s posts, to my mind, are nothing but the equivalent of a referee dropping the puck for a hockey face-off. True, the more face-offs successfully started, the better the site does.

      This site is supposed to fight the Confirmation Bias joy that is most other boards. Within this thread you’ll find comments for, against, and ambivalent, and all of them are still up, barring overt racism or obsenity. Moderation is very moderate here. No?

  6. It’s a small town PD with limited training and experience. Not exactly Keystone Cops, but not Scotland Yard either. I’m not surprised that mistakes — bad mistakes — were made. In fact, I’d be surprised, and suspicious, if everything they did was all too neat and tidy.

    Police errors probably contributed to having the Grand Jury investigate this case. GJ investigations are like landings — any one that you can walk away from is good. It was a good investigation for Darren Wilson. He got to walk away.

    Could he have defused the situation before it got deadly? I don’t know, but I kinda think not. The Mike Brown that I saw on the video robbing a convenience store was looking for trouble. Bad trouble. He wanted it and he found it.

    • Agreed. How many officer involved shootings has FPD handled? From what little I’ve seen of this situation any mistakes made in the investigation comes from lack of training and lack of experience.

      This reinforces the point I’ve tried to make in so many posts here. The mayors, city councils and chiefs bear the blame for the shortcomings of their troops. Consistently punish these top people for their troops missteps and we will get cops that are the best.

      It doesn’t matter what mayor x has done for you in the past. If his cops are consistently bad, vote his ass out.

      • Ferguson isn’t that small, and while it may not have the most generous dept budget, this is rookie error kinda stuff. Any Sgt., let alone Lt., worth his stripes should know this back-of-hand.

        They aren’t the boonies, this is part of the STL metro. As much as the facts say this was a good shoot, that is verrrrryyyy sloppy police work.

        • It has been my experience that PDs in close proximity to major metropolitan areas tend to be more Barney Fife-ish than an out and out Podunk PD. Just my 2 cents.

        • Another issue here that I could see right before the RIOTS , was the Ferguson P.D. did not have the NEEDED man power to handle this, and second issue here because of ALL the BAD MEDIA press from the very start the FERGUSON P.D. , was holding back a LOT to defuse the issue , N.Y. city did not play games , but locked rioters right away…Just saying…THE BLAME game will not help America fix things … want to point fingers START with the White House and A.G. Holder and all this RACE BATING .

        • Yea, playing politics with people’s lives and property is a dangerous game, one which Prez Obola and his peeps seem quite comfortable playing. We have yet to get a legitimate answer from Gov Nixon on why he ordered MNG not to engage, either.

        • 2hotel9, Fair enough, I can see how that could happen and I know of some fairly sophisticated depts in places one would not expect them. I guess I just look at it as when one lives close to a library, one has no excuse not to be educated. That, and Christ-on-a-pogo-stick, even brain-damaged meatpuppets watching some CSI nonsense would know better.

        • Following what should be basic procedures ought to be a given. People do some seriously screwed up things under duress, that said the other officers arriving on scene did not have that excuse. As Accur81 said earlier, some one should have taken command of the scene, and the one having just been through a physical confrontation and shooting is not the one that should have taken charge. I know this from dealing with accidents on work sites, you would think it would be ingrained by training for cops.

        • 2hotel9, Agreed, that’s why there’s a supervisor. When the line-level personnel are reacting in the fog, it’s the job of the boss to show up and make things happen as they should in an orderly fashion in the aftermath.

          When the jefe is as confused and disordered as his underlings, he has no qualification to hold the office. I’m just saying there’s no heat-of-the-moment excuse once management arrives on scene.

        • Yea, from what I have been reading it appears FPD supervisors were “over taken by events”. Which, sad to say, happens a lot more than people realize. May feel is they just wanted Wilson away from the scene while keeping as many other officers on scene as possible. It was already getting ugly when the first backup arrived, and the fact it took so long to get Brown’s remains off the scene speaks volumes. As a couple of the other former LEO commenters have said, a cock up all the way around.

      • That was the standard I was held to as an NCO, I was in charge and when my troops f**ked up “I” was held responsible. Funny, though, so many times officers got to skate when troops f**ked up due to lack of leadership and/or proper supervision. Or they passed the blame downward, quite often. The same has always been true in civilian government bureaucracy at all levels. Those further down the foodchain are the ones always taking it in the a$$ instead of those in charge.

    • Agreed.

      Mike Brown committed strong arm robbery 10-15 minutes before his encounter with Officer Wilson. He was still carrying the stolen merchandise. I challenge anyone to give a rational explanation for why he was walking down the middle of the street.

      Read that again. By EVERY witness account, Brown was walking down the middle of the street still holding the stolen merchandise. When he was approached by a police officer in a marked car, he did not take off running.

      The Ferguson Police Department may have very well screwed up on the investigation. However, it is entirely unfair to place the burden on the unlucky police officer who happened upon this drug-adled criminal. If people want to fix the inherent inequity in society, you don’t win allies by suddenly making scapegoats of police officers.

    • I’ve been cussed out by plenty of cops and lived to tell about it. What is being suggested here? That after Brown cursed at Wilson, the officer should have just said “Oh I am sorry. I see you are having a rough day and you are so close to home that I am just going to let you proceed and maybe after a nap, you will feel much better. Sorry to have interrupted you two gentlemen. Carry on.”
      I read this same topic on Salon and those commenters made TTAG commenters look like the cast of MSNBC.
      BTW, if you read some of my comments, you can see I am not a boot licker, but for the love of Pete, can we move on and find another example of bad cops? If the problem is so prevalent, there has to be a better example.

      • Let’s be clear here: no one knows for sure how the deal went down.

        We have the testimony of the main remaining actors: Officer Wilson and Brown’s partner in crime. They tell two very different stories.

        For sure I don’t take Dorian Johnson’s account at face value; it conflicts with the physical evidence in many places. Call me a natural born cynic, but I don’t accept that Officer Wilson’s testimony was the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If nothing else, Officer Wilson arrested someone for taking video of the police, indicating a lack of love for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

        As I said in the post, taken together, or, if you prefer, splitting the difference, I get the impression that an aggressive cop met an aggressive felon. A fight ensued and Wilson shot Brown in self-defense. That’s my take. I’m not a fill-time cop nor was I privy to the information seen by the Grand Jury. But I can read and read between the lines.

        Again, the sloppy police response after the shooting has nothing to do with the shooting itself, except that it indicates a lack of proper discipline within the force. Which may – may – have affected Wilson’s approach to the incident. Fair enough?

  7. Brown had the first opportunity not to escalate. He could have not stolen the cigars. He could have moved to the sidewalk when asked by Wilson.
    Brown was bent of escalating. I suspect that short of never speaking to Brown, it would have escalated. When has a thug ever responded well to nice talk? To him, it would have likely been taken as a sign of weakness.
    When Brown walked away, he was a fleeing felon with a demonstrated tilt to violence.
    Yes Wilson could have sat in his cruiser and waited or back up. But Wilson also did not know where Brown was going. Speculating on what could have been is a pointless and wondering what the world would be like of someone had killed Hitler before his rise to power.

  8. As someone who has worn the badge and know how ofiicer involved shootings go, yes, this was a cock-up of the first order.

    1. Wilson told his Sgt what happened. All he should have said was how many shots and direction of fire.
    2. He should not have washed up until he was photographed and he shouldn’t have bagged his own gun.
    3. As soon as he had to do more than just ask the guys to get out if the road, he should have got out of his car, not backed up to them.
    4. Ferguson PD needed to issue Tasers.

    Ferguson PD and Wilson could have done better, but the ultimate blame rests on Brown. As the saying here goes, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

    • Wilson may or may not have been a poster child for police decorum, but there’s no denying that Brown went out and got himself killed. Pure and simple, Wilson was righteous in going after Brown. I’ve not read any comments on this site that Wilson did anything other than what his job required him to do. It’s what came afterwards that raises questions. And justifiably so. There is much that needs to be said about this.

  9. I’m currently reading the transcripts which have been released in 25 volumes of varying sizes. After finishing the first one, I’m stunned at the sloppiness shown just from that first part of the testimony. More comments when I’ve read more and have time to study it.

  10. A couple of things stand out to me:

    1) He “prefers” not to carry a taser. Tough. Carry it. Should be a standard issue item just like body cameras, because it gives you an extra (needed) level in your force continuum. Maybe it would have helped, maybe not, but you should still have it as a general practice.
    2) Based on his testimony he WAS aware of the call, even though he wasn’t directly responding to that call. This conflicts with the assertion that he knew nothing about the robbery.
    3) Based on my understanding of the scene, Brown was found amidst the majority of the casings. Unless the shooting occurred at essentially contact range (which would leave physical evidence in the form of a lot of powder residue over much of his body), it would seem to back up Wilson’s story that he chased after Brown for a short period of time, then backpedaled when Brown turned around and came towards him.

    • With every year, Taser policy becomes more and more restrictive- largely due to cops who use them when it’s absolutely the wrong answer. If you work for Seattle PD, you’re probably better off shooting someone than using a Taser on them. At some point in the near future, I would not be surprised if you start seeing entire departments giving them up.

      Same with body cameras, there was recently a public records request filed here in WA that has prompted many local agencies to look at giving up their cameras- someone requested all, that is every minute of every officer’s footage for the entire history of a department. They estimated it would take about three years to fill that single request, without hiring extra people. At that point, despite all the benefits to everyone involved, easier to not even bother having them.

      • In force continuum, the Taser always seems like a solution in search of a problem. Honestly, if you can’t subdue the subject with words, mild physical action, a good tussle, a baton, a slapjack/springjack, then you probably are probably right at the point for lethal force. Or you’re a tiny woman with no business being a cop. There *are* wonderful exceptions (like that poor nutter with a frakkin’ pen knife – Taser was the perfect tool) but the majority of Taser uses are pretty obscene in a dispassionate analysis. Too many deaths for a casually deployed weapon.

        That, and Ricky Roid Ranger keeps pullin’ that trigger as long as he can. It’s ‘less lethal’, but the more data I see, the less I believe that.

        • I haven’t looked up the numbers myself, but in training they told us that Tasers were statistically safer not just for the officers using them, but also for the suspects being tased. This may sound ridiculous on its face, but if you think about it, the worst injury you are likely to sustain from a Taser without a heart condition is from falling on your head.

          Compare this to the injuries you can get from wrestling with however many cops show up to your fight, sprains, broken bones, bruises, or the same from being struck repeatedly with a wooden baton, and it starts to make sense. Someone with a heart condition wrestling with three or four guys may well suffer the same heart attack that they would from a Taser application.

          In appearance, however, the Taser looks to be a far higher level of force than fisticuffs. And yes, some guys appear to enjoy using them far too much.

        • 600+ people have died from Taser use since 2001, starting when not everybody and their brother had them. I don’t disagree that there are scenarios where they are the best choice, I just find that looking at the data, a few of those corpses would have preferred a few broken bones.

          Despite what Taser Inc has you told in training, it’s maybe less lethal than a bullet. I can’t say it should be taken away, but I can say that it is nowhere near as “less” lethal as the company makes it out to be. Especially when the operator is a cowboy.

        • Yeah, the problem with Tasers is not so much that they’re so unsafe (they are, but it’s not hard to recognize the fact and use them appropriately), but rather that they are too damn convenient to use as a “forced conformance” tool, or just to punish whatever cops sees as a bad behavior – and end up being used that way too often.

  11. Actually this IS typical small town cop behavior. Clueless and inept. And I support Wilson. If he hadn’t acted like a badass(respect my authoratah’) might not have this s##t. Barney Fife all the way…and I grew up in a small city with inept racist corrupt cops (Kankakee Illinois)…

    • Small towns are not noted for having deep pools of talent to draw from… and when you see the f-ups that happen in big-city departments, the surprise isn’t that f-ups happen, it’s that f-ups don’t happen more often.

    • Why did we have to hear about Michael Brown for the last few months but this never popped up on our radar?

      Because Sharpton, Holder, Obama, the white college dropout left wing “community organizer” loonies running around Ferguson, the MSM and the rest of the racial arsonists can’t make any money or grab any power by exploiting it.

  12. I unbookmarked TTAG a while ago because of the anti-cop mentality. I love cops and soldiers… it’s their (current) bosses I despise.

    Communities end up with the policing they deserve. Sit on the porch and collect benefits — erode the tax base — raise the crime rate while lowering the pay…. what kinds of recruits and managers are you going to end up with? (Same goes for teachers but that’s another topic.)

    That’s why there were so few brothers on the force. Thanks to affirmative action, any black cop smart enough to make the cut will opt for a nicer cushy low-crime suburban posting with higher pay. Doh.

  13. Thanks for enlightening us again, Officer Farago! If only I had you as an instructor at the police academy. Instead of “command voice”, we could just say: “pretty please.”

    • When cops yell at me (it doesn’t happen often, but it has happened), I want to kick them in the b@lls or tell them to go fvck themselves. When they speak to me politely, I want to comply, and do. So yeah, save your “command voice” for your union meetings. Try respecting people.

      What you’ve been trained to do has created lots of enemies. Some day, it may get you killed because the last guy you yelled at will turn his back on you when you need him. What goes around . . . . is your fault.

      • Ralph,

        I could not agree with you more. I’m exceedingly polite to everyone I encounter on the street, be it upstanding citizen or turd. And as such I get into far fewer fights than most of my colleagues, generate zero complaints, and generally feel good about my interactions with people, and still get the job done. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a time and a place to yell and go hands on, but those circumstances are rare and generally can be avoided by being polite.

        • Good for you. A polite cop will make a lot of friends in the community and defuse potentially tense situations. A smart cop will be nice until it’s time to not be nice, and he will know the difference.

        • Yep, Officer Friendly can crack your skull just as effectively as Officer Dumbazz, if that is what needs done.

        • Politeness works for me too. Very few complaints, the occasional thanks from people getting tickets or even arriving at jail. Uniform or not, if you start by giving respect, you’re far more likely to get it in return.

        • “Uniform or not, if you start by giving respect, you’re far more likely to get it in return.”


        • Exactly. Politeness, whether “deserved” or not, lubricates the gears of civilization.

          When I was a kid delivering pizza, I wore a shirt and tie under my delivery t-shirt. I worked in neighborhoods more sketchy than Ferguson and made very good tip money from my clientele, because to me they were always ‘sir’ and ‘ma’am’. I only had two problems, with those who had criminal intent from jumpstreet, both solved by judicious application of a 6D Maglite, then running like hell.

          The current training of “control at all costs” and rapid escalation, tends to yield really bad results when better results could have been had by just being polite. Doesn’t take skull-cracking off the table, just means that you don’t sound like you really want to do it as your first option.

        • Got to say the only times a cop has done the loud&profane act on me was in Lawton, OK(if you know the town you know why I was there and why he felt the need to screech and “tune” me up with a flashlight to the head) and Atlanta. Atlanta PD officer pulled up on me in an apartment complex parking lot at night and wanted to know “What the F**k are you doing here, White Boy!” Once he knew I was answering a refrigerator repair call in my own vehicle we were copacetic. Its all in how you react, most times.

      • Every time a cop is polite to me during a traffic stop, I am disappointed when he says “Sit tight and I’ll be right back.” That means he is going to write a citation. On the other hand, every cop that has been a total dickhead to me has let me go after verbally belittling me. I guess I inconvenienced him by making him pull me over and he doesn’t want to be inconvenienced more by having to fill out the paper work. One jerk was tailgating me for several miles and I kept speeding up because I thought he wanted me to. Once I got 14 mph over the limit, he pulled up beside me and we stopped in the middle of the road. He yelled at me and cussed me out through the window. We were blocking both lanes of traffic. After he had his say, he drove off. I drove home thinking “what a dick”.

        • Lots of places nowadays require officers to issue a written warning rather than a vocal one so they’d have to go back to their car anyway…

    • Whoa, guys. I never advocated being an outright jerk to anyone. What I meant was that after someone is already being a threatening ass and attacking you is not the time to play nice-nice.

      As Ralph said, “A smart cop will be nice until it’s time to not be nice, and he will know the difference.”

    • Oh, and if you are yelling it ain’t “command voice”, its just being obnoxious at the top of your lungs. And yes, I have command voice, its not something you can teach to the majority of people.

    • Meh. I don’t like strongarm cops any more than I like strongarm thugs. Still, I read Wilson’s GJ testimony and saw his interview and I believe him. Let’s face it — Wilson isn’t smart enough to maintain a lie under even a mild cross-examination. He’s telling as much of the truth as he knows.

    • I am very familiar with that allegation. The citizen sated that he really isn’t sure if it was Wilson or not. It’s interesting that he waited so many months afterward to only now bring it up.

  14. Been a reader for several years. Never made a comment. Have very much enjoyed the website.

    As far as articles referencing law enforcement go, I have always taken them for what they are worth & left the rest.

    In regards to this article, some points I might bring to bear:

    You’re absolutely right that you as a citizen have the right to question armed public servants. You have your own perception as to how law enforcement should be done & comment on it regularly. If someone equally as uninformed as you are on LE were to comment on firearms or training would you not read their articles skepticism? What have you done to educate yourself in matters of statutory law, case law, law enforcement practices, or actual real world encounters of self defense? I’ve never taken the time to address my concerns on Internet forums or blogs, but I have very much enjoyed TTAG for many years. It’s a daily read for me. That said, I wouldn’t go to a bunch of amateurs to read up on firearms related info. Your opinions are noted. Your concerns are obviously valid. What have you done to educate yourself as to why certain things are done or why certain things are not? Many things are done not out of best practice, but because LE has relented to public demand in place of best practice to satisfy their tax paying employers.

    As far as mistakes made immediately following the shooting, have you ever been involved in a deadly force incident? What people do does not always make sense. Trained or not trained it can be traumatic. People are so quick to jump on conspiracy. In this case it was more likely stress that led to these mistakes. The fact of the matter is if you need an informed opinion on plumbing or electrical or disease, you go to a CURRENT plumber, electrician, or doctor. I come to TTAG for an I formed opinion on gun related matter. I still enjoy reading your articles referencing law enforcement, but outside of your opinion I have seen no attempt to improve your knowledge relating to the field. Sorry to say, but you’re out of your depth on this matter. It is similar to me reading an author’s opinion on gun matters from uninformed writers. I still enjoy reading their prospective from a layman’s view, but it is still just an uniformed opinion.

    I keep seeing all the references to increased training. Exactly how much money would you like to spend on this? Where do you want the money to come from? How many officers?…all of them? Average cost of training for a recruit from hire to completion of training at a major PD in the US is likely around $150,000 per officer. That is basic academy. By the time a peace officer reaches the 10yr mark, there’s a good chance that officer has had in the neighborhood of more than 2000 hours of training and continuing education. Show me how many other professions have similar levels of training? It the training of the month. And it is all more than fine. If the community feels that it is necessary to say educate 1000 officers in a class that provides sensitivity training to a very small subset of the population at “X” cost per officer, that’s fine. The community has made that decision. That said the community needs to understand the total cost of implementing that training. If they really understood the cost, it may not seem as important to spend many thousands to support training for a very small subset of the community rather than focusing on more general training that would focus on treating all persons respectfully. At the end of the day, the LE community is overwhelmed with complying with the demands of an uninformed citizenry. It is the job of LE to interact with their community to come to an agreement on what they need to effectively do their job balanced with what the citizens want. It can’t be just one way or the other.

    Lastly, most people that comment on these matters have a lack of training, experience in similar circumstances, law knowledge, or the willingness to do the same job themselves. Officers are not government overlords. They are public servants. A stop gap or barrier between the community that citizens want and the evil that exists. That said, the minute all these people who didn’t want to be troubled with matters see an officer have to do his job, there’s immediately a professional in everybody. I may very well second guess my doctor or plumber, but at the end of the day if I don’t educate myself enough to make an informed query I’m really just making noise.

    Here’s to the hope that TTAG doesn’t become an uninformed noise maker. Educate yourselves. Then speak. Or not.

    • I don’t understand your point, or even know if you have one. Are you suggesting that only cops can judge cops? Because that’s the same kind of arrogance that made people turn on the police, leaving us where we are today.

      • I guess you missed the point that you should educate yourself on the matters you’re either trying to learn from or criticize. Otherwise your opinion is no better than any other uneducated talking head that wants to yell louder so they can be heard.

        It’s not arrogance. It’s fact. When you go to the doctor do you go to a health & beauty blogger for a second opinion because you’re concerned that you got bad info from the first? No…you go to another doctor, one you obviously trust more than the first. But how you get to the point of wanting a second opinion is important, you make an educated, informed decision that the doctor may be wrong. You’re not a subject matter expert, but you’re informed enough to know what feels right & what feels wrong. That said, a well informed patient still might not want to go pen an oped Monday night quarter backing their 1st doc until they are absolutely sure of what was done wrong. Otherwise you’re no different than the MSM media putting out bad or inaccurate news just so people listen to them.
        When I want a well informed opinion on LE matters I don’t go to a gun blogger unless they are a well informed one. TTAG certainly offers an opinion, but it’s only slightly more well informed on matters of law than CNN & is stale on their attempts to become better informed.

        My point sir, TTAG is a great place for a lot of things that I enjoy paging to multiple times per day. Why?…because I value their opinion, until the one they offer is based on uneducated views. I don’t trust everything LE…but I wouldn’t go asking an accountant if a cop was doing it right either.
        Like it or not, officers are held to a higher standard than most other professions. Are there bad officers, you bet. Percentage wise within the general population, do they do more harm than good?

        A store was just robbed. A call to the police goes out. An officer catches the suspect. The suspect grabs the officers gun and gets shot. Tragic. Terrible. Bad for everybody left. Citizens want good professional law enforcement. I think they deserve it. That said, it is nearly futile to discuss the topic in a culture where people value being heard or being right than they do about the honest truth. I can’t have an honest discussion about LE with someone that is unwilling to educate themselves on the topic or listen to facts than we could have a conversation with those that have zero respect for the 2nd amendment. Some people are caught up in being heard, some hate the police, some have a problem with any level of authority no matter it’s source. LE is not perfect. It’s extremely problematic on many levels. Not the least of which is an uniformed, uneducated, apathetic citizenry that only wants to yell when they see what they think is wrong. It may be wrong, it may not…they don’t care.

        Me personally, I don’t feel like I need LE for me or for my family. I understand why others do. I support citizens that want LE. Some people cannot protect themselves. LE is not always bad & it’s not always good. I think there is far less corruption today then yesterday. I’m glad some people get involved. People deserve what they pay for. That said, there are very few people in this world capable of doing and willing to do the job that the citizens want them to do. A front line officer, that truly wants to follow the law and proactively intervene in true crime is attacked from all sides: citizens, criminals, administration, his fellow officers. You want all things. And yet you are amazed when things go wrong. Life isn’t fair. Things don’t always go according to training. Very few of you have done the job but know everything there is to know about it because you’re gun people that went to a few weekend training classes & know right from wrong. I’ve given first aid, been to a few classes & know when I don’t feel good…still not a doctor. You pay people to make decisions & then fault them not because they made the wrong decision, but because they didn’t get to the answer the same way as you.

        My challenge to everybody that hates what LE is & feel that they know how to do it better: go do it. Me personally, I wouldn’t suggest it, because at any time you could be the next guy that had to fight for his life & then have to sit through what this guy has.

        • Sorry, but “if you aren’t one, you can’t judge” is a basic logical fallacy. If you want to go Dunning-Kruger effect, then you may have a point.

          As soon as you can make a cogent argument within the bounds of D-K, then you might have an actual point. But being a cop, doing that job, and understanding the proscribed parameters are miles from rocket science. Many folks know enough about the law to provide a valid opinion. So if you want to attempt to disqualify those opinions, the onus is on you.

    • No disrespect intended, but you sound like a typical police union representative schooling us members of the ‘great unwashed’ on the Way Things Really Are And Why We Can’t Possibly Understand Them. Sorry to disappoint you but there are, in fact people on this site—including people with police experience—that are far better informed than you might imagine.

      • We’ll sir, that’s not me. I’m a staunch 2nd amendment supporter with zero ifs ands or buts about it. I’m a religious man that believes in treating all people with respect. I’m human like every one of yall & have a bad day sometimes. I have made mistakes in my life & will make some more tomorrow probably. I also see how others have made mistakes & will make some more. I don’t look down on people but may try to help them up. People already expect more out of LE than they do out of the general population & rightly so. Those people are also extremely judgmental when many times they could not live up to that same standard. You can not expect flawless LE because at the end of the day they are just men. Mistakes will always be made. Some worse than others.

        I defend no wrong. It’s a waste of time & just isn’t right.

        Who would you rather have go to your elderly grandmothers house in the middle of the night when she’s scared because she heard a sound in her backyard? Me personally…I’d rather be there myself, but my grandmother lives out of state. So out of the general population who would you rather rely on? That’s going to do it no matter the weather. Do I like all officers?…nope. And I know quite a few. This ain’t a game when an officer responds. For the majority, I think all people want to do the right thing. Very very few people act out of shear maliciousness.

        We generally hear people of TTAG telling people not to do stupid things, at stupid times, in stupid places, under stupid circumstances. That’s great if you’re not the guy that actually has to go to that place. Violence is extremely avoidable almost all the time. It’s different when you’re actually the one that has to go there. You’re going to think of people however you choose. Me sitting here typing it out & you sitting there typing it out even though we could be from the same city doesn’t even matter.

        Me personally, I wouldn’t recommend anybody go into LE.

    • “Officers are not government overlords. They are public servants.”

      Well tell Furgeson PD to start fvcking acting like it then.

      That is the whole reason for the contention behind this issue to begin with, so, do try and follow along.

    • Far too much money is spent on law enforcement. All of that training and they still can’t remember that filming the police and open carry are rights in their state? They get sued. They agree to “train”. That training gets ignored and they get sued again. Among activists, especially RKBA activists, there is a common admonition to not seek legal guidance from cops because they generally don’t know jack. Again, far too much money wasted and too many innocent non-law enforcement lives are forever changed for the worse.

      BTW: In reading your other comments… we agree on a lot. I would rather not involve law enforcement if I can help from it.

  15. seems pretty normal more or less. that’s how it’s done in Chicago, and the police here shoot a LOT of people, so that means these methods must be pretty valid. used to be that there would be a closed door “round table” here where the captain, chief lieutenant, commander and supervising sergeant would talk to the officer involved in a closed door meeting with no notes taken at all and then he had up to 24 hours AFTER that to speak to anyone investigating the situation AND have a lawyer and union representative present. no bad shootings by police in Chicago have ever occurred. that means other cities should do what we do 😀

  16. I can understand how they need to tighten up their act. However, regardless of words exchanged, any police officer would have justification to shoot if the person came into their vehicle assaulting them (look it up: Missouri’s castle doctrine law extends to your vehicle) and/or grabbed for their gun (per Massad Ayoob). So really, this may cast some doubt as to how they do business, but it doesn’t change what matters about the case.

  17. Farago,

    FLAME DELETED You know nothing about police work or how to do the job. The fact that you dare, without a day of police training, sit here and pontificate how Officer Wilson failed to descalate the situation, or even has a shred of responsibility for it’s outcome is insulting. Had this turd, Michael Brown, been raised to respect people, (not just authority or the police, but PEOPLE in general), he wouldn’t have committed that robbery at the convenience store earlier. He wouldn’t have been walking down the middle of the street. He wouldn’t have told Officer Wilson to “fuck off”. He wouldn’t have assaulted Officer Wilson. And finally, he would have done as he was ordered and laid down in compliance and submitted to his arrest. Brown, and his parents, own this entire thing. And the fact that this officer and entire community will now be paying for it for years is saddening…

    I’m done reading your uninformed musings as I’m learning you really know knowing about firearms, training or tactics and my being a subscriber actually gives your Facebook page credibility, which I’m now convinced it has none. I’m now “unsubscribed”!

  18. I’ve been stopped by the Ferguson PD and been let go alot even St.Louis county PD. Wilson should have been photographed before leaving the scene and someone else should’ve put his weapon in the evidence bag. Hell if I shoot someone, give me 24 hours to clear my mind and let me put my weapon in the evidence bag. They are wearing body cams and they should…All police should for the safety and integrity of them and others. Ferguson PD does have tasers because I had one pointed at my face when I chose to take them on a mini chase, but even then that officer talked to me with respect and already knew why I have done it and only charged me with traffic citations. That happened a couple of years ago and I’m now a 23 year old black male and I don’t have any hatred towards the good police which I haven’t had a bad experience with police anyway

  19. Wow, just reading comments it’s amazing how many people have a non factual opinion on the shooting.

    So I’ll go ahead and start us off;
    Today, on this Thanksgiving of 2014, I’m thankful I wasn’t involved in the fergeson shooting.

    • Ps. I’m also thankful that I am capable of independent thought, that I have family to enjoy thanksgiving with and that my keyboard doesn’t cause my head to grow

  20. Makes you wonder if any of this would have happened if Michael Brown had been walking on the sidewalk instead of the middle of the road.

    • …..or in class, or at the local ymca, or at work, or at home studying, or at football practice, or at home prepping dinner, or on a date with his gf, or at church youth group, or mowing his grandpa’s grass, or volunteering at the local community center, or babysitting his siblings, or taking a nap, or painting the chipped paint on his moms house……

    • Maybe not…in my neighborhood south of Chicago I’ve had youngblack a##wipes lay in the middle of the STREET daring you yo to HIT them. SERIOUSLY…if I was undercover cop I’d be sorely tempted. And I have 2 IRC sons.