Are the Fibbies telling fibbies? According to documents unearthed by nytimes.com, agents employed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation who clear leather and let loose the dogs of war never ever shoot the wrong person. Or shoot the right person at the wrong time. [Click here to read F.B.I. Shooting Database Overview, 1993-2009.] The article goes into some detail about two questionable shoots that an FBI internal investigation found fully justified. But it’s the totality of the stats, and some of the charts, that are most intriguing. Here’s the NYT’s summary . . .
From 1993 to early 2011, F.B.I. agents fatally shot about 70 ‘subjects’ and wounded about 80 others — and every one of those episodes was deemed justified, according to interviews and internal F.B.I. records obtained by The New York Times through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit. The last two years have followed the same pattern: an F.B.I. spokesman said that since 2011, there had been no findings of improper intentional shootings.
That’s some good shooting Tex! Doing the data dive thing, we see that the FBI breaks down the 497 shooting incidents (investigated by the FBI) as follows:
– 216 Accidental Discharges (43 percent)
– 188 Intentional Shootings (38 percent)
– 93 Animal Shootings (19 percent)
Note: “accidental discharges,” not “negligent discharges.” What does that tell you about their culture and accountability? Or maybe that’s just me being anti-LEO again. Anyway, Agents shot eighty-five dogs. And one tiger.
The FBI report is quick to point out that if you combine Intentional Shootings and Animal Shootings FBI Agents really did mean to shoot their guns 57 percent of the time. Unless—and excuse me for being cynical again—some negligent discharges went unreported. What are the odds?
LA. We love it! That’s where FBI Agents fired their weapons most over the study’s 17-year time frame. After that Washington, Chicago and New York. Albuquerque may be hard to spell, but it’s the place where you’re least likely to see Fibbies bring their guns to bear on bad guys. Or animals. Or by mistake.
Either the FBI skews heavily towards middle-aged agents or middle-aged agents are more
trigger happy likely to use their firearms than the youngsters or the old guys. Agents who were 31 to 35-years-old were responsible for majority of shootings (130). Agents with five years or less at the Agency were the heavy hitters, ballistically speaking (140+). Then again, “accidental discharges.”
If you’re a bad guy who doesn’t want to get shot by the FBI (or an animal or an FBI Agent who doesn’t want to fire his or her gun “by accident”) it pays to pay more attention between 12pm and 4pm on a Wednesday. In March. In good light. Whether or not a SWAT team is involved doesn’t seem to make a difference; it’s about a 50 – 50 split in terms of what kind of agent fired their gun.
The report also offers some details of a few incidents excerpted from another report obtained by The Old Gray Lady. [Click here to read F.B.I. Shooting Incident Reviews, 1993-2011.] In one account, an Agent fired a warning shot into the air when he was surrounded by “a mob which had become aggressive in its actions.” Another Agent fired a shotgun into some bushes just in case. “While intoxicated, an Agent fired his weapon at an object.” (I wonder who suffered more: the Agent who fire his gun or the brother officer who ratted him out.)
There’s an Agent who feared he would get run over so shot at a departing truck six times. In terms of dog shootings, all canines are aggressive, including one that was attacking an Agent’s friend’s small dog. The Agent dispatched the larger animal with two shots from his Glock 22. Well, he injured the animal, who was then euthanized.
The report only gets personal when discussing UDs (Unintentional Discharges). Apparently they are “unacceptable and pose a significant risk of harm.” Then again, it points out that [collectively] Agents unholster their weapons for training 213,760 times a year. “When placed into the context of the very broad calculations above, the number of UDs within the FBI were relatively few.”
The old guys are the worst; 41 to 45-year-olds account for the majority of the “UDs.” Friday is UD day at the FBI. In October. At the range. There’s a couple ‘o charts about the Glock’s role in UDs but the black-and-white copy denies us a chance to examine the charts for useful data (pages 68 and 69). Hey, remember that ATF guy who negligently fired his gun during a presentation to school students? Same deal here . . .
An Agent was providing a presentation on the FBI to middle school students. As part of the presentation on the weapons used by the FBI, the Agent held a Smith & Wesson Model 13-3 aloft with the barrel pointed towards the ceiling. In order to demonstrate the rotation of the cylinder, the Agent pulled the trigger, discharging one round into the ceiling. The Agent had emptied the weapon before the presentation, but unintentionally left one round in the cylinder. [sic]
In case you were wondering what happens to Agents who cause a “UD”, here’s the document’s insight into the punitive process:
The typical penalty received by Special Agents for an Unintentional discharge: letter of censure, three days suspension and remedial firearms training.
Needless to say (although I guess I have to say it), the FBI is staffed by carefully selected, highly trained, professional, courteous, brave men and women who work tirelessly to protect US citizens from criminals. They are way more responsible with firearms than the average citizen. Unlike other Americans, FBI Agents are, deservedly, entitled to access to “assault rifles” and fully automatic weapons and have the right to carry a firearm anywhere (including airplanes). Or not.
RE: The Vile New York Times
I left a comment about this on their web-site.
The comment was to the effect of….
….welcome to the state of tyranny where ‘law enforcement officers’ get away with murder.
I’ve seen it happen where I live in Pueblo, Colorado, where an officer shot to death a teenage joyrider who had stolen a car and was driving it around town.
When the officer pulled him over, he shot him in the chest….out of hand.
No punishment….as far as I know.
P.S. When they come to your door….and you didn’t ask for them….they could be there to kill…..YOU!
I noticed an article on yahoo about this. I wondered how long it would be before it showed up here. One thing the yahoo article mentioned…
FBI payout to the victim of a 2002 FBI shooting, an innocent 20-year-old the FBI mistook for a bank robber. Even after settling with the victim, the FBI investigators classified the shooting as justifiable.”
And they bought off Randy Weaver for murdering his wife and son at Ruby Ridge.
No idea what they did about the massacre of women and children at Waco.
And Clinton ordered that mass murder. And I suspect the downing of TWA Flight 800, as the president of a major television network was fleeing the country with his family on board.
I don’t care to have my tax dollars used to shut up people who should speak out. I’d rather have them used to imprison trigger-happy law enforcement officers.
The other prisoners will see to it that not too much money is wasted….
P.S. That’s for THIS ‘venue’.
I’m confident that God has much better ‘punishments’ for the likes of these…..and they are of an eternal nature.
the president of a major television network was fleeing the country with his family on board
Yeah, I can see how blowing up an airplane in flight with worldwide exposure would be a LOT easier than just jabbing the guy with a ricin pellet.
Interesting timing. New evidence is apparently coming out about TWA 800. It’s supposed to say it was not caused by a short in an internal fuel tank. It’s being said that some people have now retired and are going tell the truth about it. A couple of “Whale” pilots I know say they have never believed the original story. Like Benghazi and Obozocare, we’ll have to wait and see what happens.
@Labman. the “new” evidence is the same old sh1t that these conspiracy mor0ns have been pushing for years. And why are they pushing it again now?
To make a movie.
RE: Tell Me……
Yeah, I can see how blowing up an airplane in flight with worldwide exposure would be a LOT easier than just jabbing the guy with a ricin pellet. — Ralph
……how would a ricin pellet stop the exposure of the evidence he probably had in his stored luggage?
You don’t think there are such things as government conspiracies?
Please explain Operation Fast & Furious. Or the IRS. Or the NSA.
P.S. There are a LOT of dead bodies around the Clintons. Most infamous is the murder of the entire Georgetown Starbucks where Mary Mahoney and the closing crew were all gunned down. Mary with multiple head and body shots.
The Keystone Kops of the DCPD said it was a robbery. But all the money was left in the register.
Mary was an intern to President Clinton. Like Monica. But she apparently didn’t play ‘ball’ with him like Monica. So when her term was up, she didn’t get a cushy job. She had to go find work for herself.
The mass murder took place TWO DAYS after Newsweeks Isikoff said he had a hot item about a sex scandal involving the president and he referred to his source as “M”.
Shortly after Mary’s murder, Monica got that DNA sample on the infamous blue dress and kept it as evidence in case she was threatened. She apparently knew Mary while she was still on the staff at the WH.
[The Truth will out….even if it takes a decade or four.]
P.P.S. Speaking of planes blowing up and falling out of the sky….
….can you please explain to me how that young Kennedy scion died in a tragic plane crash two days after he announced that he was planning to run for the opening US Senate seat that Hillary ultimately won….because he was dead…..
People walking on the beach or on their decks say they saw a flash in the sky about that time.
I believe in coincidence. I just don’t trust it.
But the FAA chalked it up to pilot error. And the body was quickly buried at sea.
I have to wonder if the autopsy got ‘lost’. Like the one for Ron Brown after HIS aircraft crashed. And for some strange reason, the people working the Air Traffic Control for that ill-fated flight at the time all seem to have died shortly afterwards.
Two words: Ruby Ridge
Don’t forget Waco…..
“From 1993 to early 2011”
Ruby Ridge occurred in 92 I believe.
So, by FBI standards the 2 paper ladies in LA that got strafed during the Dorner Disaster were a justifiable shoot?
You got that right.
And LA is trying to buy them off as well…..
The problem is rampant!
LAPD shooters, not FBI.
Missed the point. I know they were LAPD. But apparently the FBI standards of a good shoot are so flexible that the LAPD would have been ruled good in that one. As would the NYPD when 9 bystanders were hit.
I think that the LAPD already ruled that one a good shoot. Not saying it was, cause it’s hard to see how it could be, but I’m not the “trained professional” that these guys are.
In other words,Jeff Coopers conclusion that the man in the blue suit should be the last party with a firearm remains true.
I have no problem with LEOs being armed.
But ONLY with 9mm semi-automatics.
If they need more than that for a case, they need to apply to the county sheriffs. At least THOSE people are elected by the people of their area. And directly answerable to THEM!
38 revolvers not 9mms
Way too easy to panic fire 45 rounds or so with the 9. As we have seen numerous times when cops draw their weapons.
The FBI, and the state and local leo’s should have access to and use of any firearms we citizens have access to and use of.
.38 cal….9mm….what’s the diff?
Please remember how I specified ‘semi-automatic’ fire.
I want them to have to take the time to load six rounds, one at a time. Not drop a magazine and pop in another 15 rounder without thinking.
I have to disagree. Government employees should be “outgunned” by citizens. Government employees should fear the citizens, not the other way around.
TO: Chris Mallory
I want them to have to take the time to load six rounds, one at a time. Not drop a magazine and pop in another 15 rounder without thinking. — Chris Mallory
I WANT THEM EXPERIENCED IN COMBAT OPS before they join the FBI.
Let them go Airborne-Ranger and become REAL MEN before they sign up with these trigger-happy bastards.
[Cool in combat….cool on the streets.]
So you don’t want equal treatment and equality of rights for all citizens, Chris? That’s a prime reason for me to be in the 2a fight. Rights for all, you know, that constitution thing.
Just WHO are you talking to here?
P.S. Please improve your commo technique….
Yeah, jwm, learn to post your comments like a 1950’s inter-office memo, already!
Yo, Chuck, reading comprehension tip: the part where he appended “, Chris?” to his question was the part where you should’ve understood WHO he was talking to.
Stinkeye beat me to it.
TO: jwm and Stinkie
….works better in this sort of venue than anything you two losers provide.
[No good turn should go unpunished.]
“Formatting works better in this sort of venue…”
Every single other person who posts here would seem to disagree with you, Chuck. We were all capable of figuring out that jwm was talking to Chris without having to ask, Chuck. Because, as Stinkeye pointed out, the fact that jwm appended “, Chris?” to the end of his sentence indicates he was talking to Chris, Chuck.
While I’m on the subject, perhaps you need to work on your formatting, because you’re using it incorrectly. “Re:” indicates “Regarding:” a topic, so when you say “Re: Heh” you’re effectively saying “Regarding: My laughter” which makes no sense. Although, you did get it right with “Re: Formatting” but since you get it wrong more than right, I’m guessing that was dumb luck, or as the saying goes “Even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then.”
TO: Matt in FL
Every single other person who posts here would seem to disagree with you, Chuck. — Matt in FL
Ask me if I give a hoot about what you think, loser. Take your jealousy and cram it up your fourth-point-of-contact.
[If you had a life in the first place, you’ll never have a mid-life crisis….and be so ‘jealous’ of those who have.]
I like it when you resort to name calling, Chuck. It means you’ve run out of actual arguments.
By the way, instead of “Re: Heh” I think you meant “Re: Formatting” or “Re: Opinions” or maybe “Re: Insults because I’m out of ideas.” Any or all of those would have been more descriptive of your memo than “Regarding: My laugh.”
43% of their shootings are negligent discharges, and they want me to believe that the remainder of the shootings were 100% justified? It’s pretty safe to call BS on that one.
Interesting that the study starts in 1993. The year after Lon Horiuci shot and killed Vicky Weaver, unarmed mother holding her infant child. Cost the FBI 3 million bucks in settlement. Good shooting buddy !
I hear Lon changed his name. As well as the FBI changed the name of the ‘Hostage Rescue Team’ (HRT) to something else, because the acronym HRT could be understood as….
….Homicidal Rifle Team….as they’d killed more people than they ever rescued.
As I recall the peckerheads started by shooting Weaver’s dog. So 93 animal shoots says a great deal. FBI SOP – shoot the family pet before burning place down.
By my math they have a pretty poor success rate. 70 kills of 404 discharges at humans (who knows how many rounds) is 17%. LA PD i likely better than that.
The statistics prove that the FBI is far more accurate than The Times, so what’s the Gray Panties Lady complaining about?
hmm……..In the Army,where I work……….. if you “Accidently” discharge your weapon……..immediate discharge from service under “other than honorable” conditions. At least we can go work at the FBI after………..
That was then….this is now…..
Now, they’d probably get a lateral transfer to the DHS and a promotion.
“Agents who were 31 to 35 year old agents were responsible for majority of shootings”
The FeeBI requires a four year degree and three years of “professional experience”. So that puts a person at 25-27 depending on how fast they were able to complete their degree. A year of FeeBI training? The first year or two working the field office in South Dakota. So yeah, early 30s is probably when most of them will be drawing their weapons.
Anyway, 31-35 isn’t “middle aged”, men that age are still inexperienced youngsters.
And they’ll be ‘inexperienced’ until they go Airborne-Ranger……
Just watch out for the Chair-Born Rangers… BIG difference here… 🙂
“Wow, looks like it sucks down there.”
Just watch out for the Chair-Born Rangers… BIG difference here… 🙂 — SkyMan77
…..but they aren’t graduates of that ‘spa’ the Army operates out of Benning School for Boys.
[If you had a life in the first place, you’ll never have a mid-life crisis.]
P.S. Or be a chair-borne ranger….
This website does the Pro-2A cause no service by continuously alienating the law enforcement community. It smacks of gun store commandoism. “If I were there I’d have done better, even though I’ve never been confronted with a life or death situation in my life…”
As long as the anti-2A side keeps holding up police and other LEOs as the only people qualified to be armed, we need to keep pointing out that LEOs are no more trustworthy or mistake-proof than any other citizen.
The snarky attitude that some of these “anti-LEO” articles are written with could probably stand to be toned down a bit, but I understand where that’s coming from, too.
Stinkeye wrote my comment for me. Thanks, Stinkeye!
Make no mistake. This Website does not alienate the Law Enforcement Community. In the very narrow scope of this article…..I Do. for the love of god keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
And yes, there have been years of my life where I did face life and death every day, and it was every day. Sofar….to date….Zero Negligent Discharges. I hope through training and vigilance I can keep up that record.
Law enforcement does itself no service by continuously alienating the Pro-2A community. When they put on their Brown Shirts and jackboots to “enforce” the liberal elite’s edicts to control the peasants they cease to be respectable.
The Agent had emptied the weapon before the presentation, but unintentionally left one round in the cylinder.
Yeah, that’s not the definition of “empty”.
Noticed that, too? Surprise! Let them ban standard cap magazines! We now have rounds that’ll teleport straight into your gun!
Maybe that’s why guns in Hollywood don’t need to reload…
“From 1993 to early 2011, F.B.I. agents fatally shot about 70 ‘subjects’ and wounded about 80 others — and every one of those episodes was deemed justified, according to interviews and internal F.B.I. records obtained by The New York Times through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit.”
It’s all absolutely true! And now, according to Director Mueller’s Congressional testimony today, the FBI probably has the drone video to prove it.
Apparently all of those accidental discharges either didn’t hit anybody or miraculously hit bad guys.
If 31 is “middle age,” then I’ve been dead for several years.
Explains why you’ve been voting in Chicago as a dem.
Vote early, vote often!