http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubt19wLNcKM
As soon as I posted the video of my weekend excursion with HeliBacon, the comments flowed in fast and furious. “Disgusting” one said. “Your a f***ing pussy. Hunt like a real man,” commented another. Another individual stated that my actions have angered an alien race which he worships and that they will similarly hunt me from spaceships with lasers for my crimes. While some of this is the standard response from those who disagree with hunting in any form, the addition of a helicopter and machine guns seemed to tip the scales for some people. So while I have some time, I figured it would be worthwhile to discuss the ethics of hogs, helos, and hunting . . .
The main premise of modern hunting is conservation. When we as a species moved from a hunter-gatherer based subsistence to an agricultural arrangement, we voluntarily took ourselves out of the food chain for the most part. Instead of searching for animals to eat every day, we raised our food apart from the normal cycle of life in the wilderness. Animal populations that had previously been prime sources of food for us humans were ignored, left to their own devices with almost no natural predators to keep their numbers in check. The same mechanisms that allowed them to survive the insatiable appetite of humans — namely their quick and plentiful reproductive cycle — meant that the local populations were suddenly above the carrying capacity of the land.
That’s the standard argument for hunting: that by having humans once again take their place at the top of the food chain we can keep the animal population in check and give the remaining animals a better life. It’s an argument that only the fringe animal rights groups resist, and is even embraced by that bastion of gun control activism, The New York Times. And when it comes to hogs, things become even clearer.
The hog population in the gulf coast states has exploded in recent years. The animals are estimated to cause about $800 million in damage every year, which is especially detrimental to farmers and their crops. Looking down from the helicopter you can see the damage as clear as day, with hog-infested fields looking like they’ve been hit by mortar fire. Especially with the current economic woes, one bad night of hog problems could be enough to run a profitable farm into bankruptcy.
But the problem posed by feral hogs in Texas doesn’t stop with financial damage — they also cause physical bodily harm as well. As I have settled into my new home here in Texas, I’ve been spending more and more time at Tyler Kee’s ranch, visiting with his family and hanging out with his horses. While their county isn’t as badly infested with hogs as others in the Lone Star State, the animals have nevertheless been the cause of many injuries to the livestock as well as the family.
Tyler’s mom was out riding around her ranch one day a couple months back when a feral hog viciously attacked her horse and knocked her out of the saddle. She broke a few bones in the process. She’s recovering fine now, but that might not be the case next time. I’ve heard variations of the same story from countless others, detailing the negative impact on man and beast alike from these unwanted critters.
States all along the Gulf of Mexico have similarly identified the financial and physical threat to the inhabitants of their states, and taken steps to not only allow but encourage the removal of these animals. There are certain counties in Texas that have even taken to offering a bounty to hunters, offering cash in exchange for feral hog tails. Added to that government-sponsored culling of the feral hog problem is a booming industry in Texas where landowners will pay specialized companies to come onto their land and eradicate as many of these dangerous and harmful animals as possible, an industry that has spawned the A&E reality TV show American Hoggers.
So the situation in Texas is that hogs are dangerous animals that are threatening to put farmers and ranchers out of business. Not only do the state and local governments encourage the widespread eradication of these animals but the people that live in the areas want them gone as well. Add to that the quick and productive reproduction of hogs — with multiple piglets per litter and multiple litters per year — and the problem balloons to the point where normal methods of population control simply are no longer effective.
To me, all of that makes sense. An exploding population needs to be controlled, and there’s a demand to eradicate as many of these destructive animals as possible. Once you get to that point, the manner in which you eliminate the problem no longer matters (it doesn’t need to be “sporting”) so long as the animals are killed as humanely as possible. In this case they were, since the helicopter pilot kept track of where the shot hogs fell and doubled back every time to make sure we ended their suffering as quickly and efficiently as possible. I can personally guarantee that these hogs suffered less than anything you’d see on the Outdoor Channel.
I think the guys at Jager Pro (from Tyler’s night vision enhanced hog hunt) summed it up best: “A hog is not a game animal. It is a pest and no different than a rat, termite or cockroach. Jager Pro is performing a hog control service and not hunting for sport. Our guest hunters are expected to kill every hog we see; even the juveniles. For example, if you have a termite infestation in your house, you want a pest control agent to kill all pregnant termites and baby termites before they destroy your biggest investment; your home. Georgia farmers expect us to kill every hog in his field before they destroy his biggest investment; his crops.”
So let’s break down this weekend’s experience and try to figure out what specifically rustled people’s jimmies.
Helicopters
There are two main reasons why conventional hog hunting is considered dismally inefficient: Texas is huge, and hogs move around. Feral hogs don’t have a set area where they live, instead they move around constantly following the food. A moving pack of animals is extremely hard to track down in the vast expanses of Texas ranch land unless you have some way to cover a large area in a short period of time. There are only two viable ways to make that happen: drones and helicopters.
Helicopters offer the ability to not only survey entire ranches looking for the animals, but provide a means to immediately act on that information. If you’re using a drone you would need to spend time and effort navigating yourself towards the target, and possibly losing track of where the hogs went. The helicopter allows for the efficient identification and elimination of these destructive animals.
The way I see it, the reaction some people have to helicopter hog depredation is the same reaction certain people have to AR-15 rifles and 30 round magazines. “OMG! That’s an assault clip and a machine gun! No one needs those!” Except we do — it’s the best tool for accomplishing a job that the local government and the local population not only agree needs to be done, but pays good money for people to do it.
Machine Guns
I get the feeling that the reaction some people have to the use of machine guns is just an extension of the “no one needs an AR-15 to hunt” claim. And every time someone tries to make that statement, I whip out a picture of my 300 BLK hunting rifle. I’m one of those guys that like to build a “perfect” firearm for each application, whether it be hunting or competition shooting or just long range steel, and I’m at a complete loss for alternatives to the AR-15 platform when it comes to hunting in the hill country of Texas. But when it comes to helicopters, machine guns are the way to go.
I’ve been up in a helicopter shooting things before, and using a semi-auto AR-15 is okay. It works, but it’s not the ideal tool for the job. You have an extremely small time frame in which to hit your target before it runs off, possibly only wounded, and taking the time to reset the trigger and prep for another shot soaks up a lot of that time. With a machine gun, you can walk your shots in and make sure that you bring the animal down instead of letting it run off and suffer.
In my opinion, machine guns are the most humane solution when shooting from a helicopter.
The Overall Experience
“So does machine gunning animals from a safe seat in the sky make you feel like a real man?” That was one of the comments I got back, and was indicative of the opinion that many people had: that because I was doing this, I was obviously a bloodthirsty sociopath who enjoyed shooting animals. And while it would be easy to drape myself in the cloak of journalism and say I was doing it as an experience to report back on, the reality is that I didn’t see the hogs as animals — they were just targets.
Before stepping foot in the helicopter, I had already squared my own ethics with the practice. They were animals that the land owners were paying to get rid of, they’d be killed one way or another, and to me the day was nothing more than a marksmanship challenge. It wasn’t about killing animals; it was about hitting targets. And I wasn’t happy that I was ending lives, I was happy that I was succeeding at the most challenging test of my skills that I had ever experienced. Hitting a moving target while seated in a moving object where the motions of both are outside my control, was a pretty intense experience, and stretched my skills to their limits. That’s what I was most excited about. And while I’m sure the experience could be replicated using moving steel targets of some sort, the fact that I was helping eliminate a common and dangerous pest satisfied my own moral compass.
At the end of the day, I did feel a slight twinge of remorse once back on the ground — I’d have my doubts about the mental stability of anyone who didn’t. But aerial hog depredation is something that is common in Texas these days and in demand among land owners, and I was happy to think that I might have saved someone else’s loved one a trip to the hospital at the hoofs of these animals. It’s a practice that we should definitely re-examine periodically to ensure that we aren’t hunting these animals to extinction, but while the problem is as bad as it is today I personally don’t see an ethical issue with it. Then again, as Dianne Feinstein constantly reminds us, ethics are something that varies from person to person.
I’m curious why ‘open carry’ is controversial in your country. Here in Canada, the few handgun carry licences that are issued (for cash in transit guards, people like geologists and trappers in the back country) are generally only issued for OPEN carry. Concealed licenses are very rare. People don’t seem to be bothered with seeing cash in transit and bank guards with open-holstered guns, so why is this an issue for others?
It is a little convoluted, because those who wish to disarm us have to lie to get anywhere with their proposals. Originally, bans on concealed carry were justified because “only criminals would need to conceal their weapons”. Then, gradually, people carrying weapons only were slowly made to be “socially unacceptable”. Pushback came as more and more states reformed the concealed carry laws to make obtaining a concealed carry permit relatively easy. Most states never had laws against open carry, Texas being one of the few exceptions because of its constitution being rewritten during reconstruction after the civil war. As the carrying of weapons has resurged as part of the effort to restore American limits on government power, people have started carrying openly to show that they have rights the government cannot take away.
The push against open carry is a desperate attempt by the pro-government groups to de-legitimize the idea of limits on government.
I’m pretty sure the chart is wrong…
Hunting hogs from helicopters with machine guns is probably unethical. But that’s not what I saw in the video.
What I saw in the video wasn’t hunting. It was pest control, plain and simple. We eliminate termites, ants, and mice with extreme prejudice and for the most part they aren’t capable of taking a human life. On top of property damage the overpopulation of feral hogs is a genuine threat to people’s safety.
Carry on.
Correct. They are a major pest problem. How does a rat feel after he’s eaten poison?
How does a rat or mouse feel when one of those old school traps slam on their hip instead of their neck or head? Happens more than you might think. Not always a clean kill.
BINGO!
Fun fact:
The National Park Service uses a very similar method to control feral goat populations in Haleakala Nat’l Park on the island of Maui.
AND the US Gummint used to use the very same method to control the water buffalo and homo sapiens populations in SEA in the 70s.
I would not call it hunting, but population controll. This method will still never be able to reduce feral hog numders to manageable numbers. Within the next few years hogs will be destroying native flora and fauna in every state in thu union. They are so prolific their numbers will only increase even with mass killings like this. Hog controll is necessary just to slow their population down.
I disagree with only one thing you said:
“Itās a practice that we should definitely re-examine periodically to ensure that we arenāt hunting these animals to extinction, but while the problem is as bad as it is today I personally donāt see an ethical issue with it.”
These are an invasive species. We should ABSOLUTELY hunt them to extinction.
Yep. We should periodically re-examine whether or not the bastards are dying FAST enough.
ABSOLUTELY! And if they are ever completely eradicated, and someone decides he/she wants them back, all they have to do is release a few into the wild and let nature take its course. I watched a program that showed that within weeks, farm raised hogs start to turn feral, growing coarse coats and those big ugly tusks.
I agree. Extinction. That would be like saying: “We need to periodically examine the use of vaccines to make sure smallpox isn’t at risk of extinction.”
As long as there’s a Mexico you’ll NEVER hunt them to extinction. And as long as the wool-heads in the SPCA and PETA are around, making them extinct doesn’t stand a chance. [See wolf eradication fiasco.] Just keep banging away, And enjoy the cook-outs.
But DON’T do a world class STUPID like the 1D10Ts in the video by bragging all over the internet. You’ll poison your cause and get every grandmother in tennis shoes to rally against the practice. We don’t need any more politicized conservation.
I have found that Streamlight’s are great flashlights in general. I have four of them. Hand held and weapon lights. While I wouldn’t want to lose them, their price point would make it a lot easier to swallow then some of the more expensive lights out there.
I agree. I own several different model Streamlights, and love them all. You can pay more, but that doesn’t mean you’ll get more. Or you can roll the dice and go cheap (not recommended). For my dollars, Streamlight is the best combo of cost, performance, and durability.
Just my two cents – The Four Rules are highly appropriate for training, at home, and at the range.
When the real world SHTF it becomes a question of judgment on the part of the shooter whether or not the seriousness of the situation warrants bending or breaking any of the rules.
I will not fault ANYONE, cop or not, who is faced with possibly being shot and killed, who pulls his trigger without being certain of what’s behind his target.
I am willing, based only on this crappy lapel video footage, to giver the “Hollywood” badass the benefit of the doubt that he was very cognizant of what was in front of him and beyond his target. We have no view whatsoever of the terrain surrounding him at the time he fired.
I want cops to be professional and to be concerned about collateral damage, but IMO it is a judgment that has to be made at the time, in the place, and with knowledge of the perp being pursued, if it is more important to ensure that he is stopped or let him escape in order to prevent ANY possibility of collateral damage. Keep in mind that they KNOW he is an active shooter. He has shot at least two police officers, and eventually four, while proclaiming to the world that it is his INTENTION to kill police. We do not know what his prior arrests/incarceration were for or how dangerous he was considered even without the cop-killer theme.
We do know that he shot cops, stole a police car, drove recklessly through the town firing at pursuing police. It is VERY possible that in the judgment of the police his escape would result in more potential collateral damage than any that might occur in stopping his rampage.
And by the way, is it okay to ignore Rule #4 and fire when they guy shooting at you is also ignoring it and any innocents who may be behind you? It could be said that if you had a shot to take out the bad guy and you didn’t take it because of these rather arbitrary rules EVERY person that BG shoots, injures or kills after that point in time is ON YOU.
The rules are for safety. Learn them, practice them, live by them, but understand that they are not a straight jacket that requires you to absorb incoming rounds rather than fight back when it is appropriate.
I am not a cop or a lawyer or a trained operator. YMMV, as may your opinion.
Stop calling select fire rifles machine guns.
What would you have them called? The two terms are synonymous.
That’s a good bit of information. Looks challenging and quite exciting. I’ll take my chances with the aliens.
They’re varmints people! Get real! Dangerous good-for-nothing critters that deserve to be exterminated as the pests they are!
What!?! Hogs!?!? I thought we were talking about CONGRESS!
A sow can start breeding at 9 months of age. She can have 3 litters a year with 4-15 piglets per litter.
Do the math.
Folks wouldn’t have a negative opinion if it was their crops or land the hogs were destroying.
Feral hogs in Texas are every bit as invasive as fire ants. There is no closed season or bag limits because they are not game animals. There is no morality in wiping out fire ants. So saying, what is the difference in pouring gasoline on a big fire ant mound and setting it on fire, which we did when I was a kid over 50 years ago and helo-shooting hogs? Feral hogs need to go by any means necessary. It is bad enough when they tear up some beautiful golf course but when they eat fawns and lambs (which I have witnessed on many occasions) they have to go.
Hogs are very smart and when hunted they “go” nocturnal overnight (pun intended). A good helo shoot , conducted over 1-2 days, that kills 30-40 will clear a ranch for up to a year maybe a little longer. They realize when their compadres are getting wiped out they need to move on. However, that institutional herd memory fades and back they come. A sow can have at least 2 litters a year. If you figure that only half are females and that they begging to breed in 6-9 months, you can be over run again.
I cannot afford to “helo hunt” (slaughter lay waste to how ever you wish to couch the phrase) but see no problem with it. No live stock tho!!
//āThere is little or no public safety justification for open carry,ā said Emmanuel Garcia, spokesman for the Texas Democratic Party.//
Exercising a fundamental right requires no justification, limiting it in any way is what has to be justified. There must be Democrats who understand that, this gentleman doesn’t seem to be one of them.
Bingo. the citizens do not have to justify the exercise of their individual rights, the government must justify any attempt to restrict the exercise of those rights. This guy proposes no less than Big brother government; and if he is any reflection of his party, we see from this fundamental confusion where it has gone astray.
Shoot hogs, barbucue, distribute to the poor, repeat.
Even Obummer could get behind that kind of practice.
The real question is How did you not reenact that scene from Full Metal Jacket?
I just replaced the word “feral hogs” with “liberals” and re read it several times with a big grin on my face.
Wait. WHAT??
Sorry, Shannon, you lost me there. WTF does open carry have to do with Universal Background Checks?
Remember that phrase you hated in math class? “Show me your work;
I want to see how your got from “A” to “B”
All is well that ends well?
I hunt every year, mainly for White Tail and with a rifle. For years and years I used my 30-30. I used a scope only one year. I preferred the challenge of no scope and where I live shots are usually less than 100 yards.
With modern technology, guns that are made by computers, and ammunition, even the cheap stuff also made by computers you take a lot of the possible error out of hunting. If you can shoot a rifle even the basics, then hunting is not hard if you have the patience to sit in a tree stand and wait for something to get in front of you. For those that love to shoot and have to large degree mastered shooting a rifle with decent precision its even easier. I can’t remember that last time I missed with a rifle when hunting. I don’t take risky shots so maybe I would miss if I tried to hit something at long range moving or only being able to see a small portion of the animal.
My point hunting with a modern rifle, even a 30-30 its not difficult. Is it even hunting anymore?? I think “real” hunting starts with a bow. Where you must be much closer and have more skill. Even bow hunting has a ton of technology thrown into to it, but it is much harder than using a rifle.
So hunting with a fully automatic weapon from a helicopter is a joke. Please don’t call it hunting. I suggest you just call in a napalm strike, it will cook the pig as well as “hunt it” for you.
If there were just a few of these critters and your intention was to spend a day or a weekend hoping to find and shoot one or two, or even holding fire looking for that trophy “Hogzilla!” then you might have a point, but this is NOT a sport. These are not game animals or trophy animals and it is not some test of man against nature. This is pure and simple an infestation of an invasive species that needs to be eradicated in the most ruthless and efficient manner possible, and with U.S. populations reaching about 4 million feral pigs a bunch of FUDDs getting their boots dirty tramping around Texas or Florida hoping to pop one or two pigs ain’t gonna get the job done.
I’m not sure I’m good enough to hit anything from a helicopter, but given the finances and opportunity I would sure like to take a crack at them from the ground, and I can guarantee that “sport” would not be in any part of my considerations. Challenge, perhaps, sport, no way.
No one is mistaking this for traditional hunting, so stop worrying about that.
Some of the comments here are of the my dog is better than your dog type. No single dog is right for every owner and no single gun is right either. I own and shoot Sigs, 3rd gen S & W and have shot most all of the brands avaible. I carry and own what fits, is reliable and has features I like. Glocks are good guns, but I don’t like how they fit etc. So I don’t carry one and it’s ok with me that others do. Berettas are a little big for my smaller hand, so don’t own that one either for that reason. Many good brands out there. Pick what you like and can shoot well. Then practice and properly maintain them I say.
Envious.
Nice job, Nick.
Who cares what the think Nick. I live in Texas and battle hogs on my farm. People who don’t deal with them will never understand. Kill em all
I think you handled the issue very well. Thanks for the feedback on what others were thinking of your pest control first article.
Thanks for giving me another reason to go visit some kin-folk down in Texas, Nick! Looks like a HOOT!
So its the SIZE of the pest that bothers these idiots? No one objects to killing rats, mice, ants, termites etc. because they are a “potential disease carrier” or some such argument. These same people would be the first to call an exterminator if their house got invaded by mice or termites. It’s a proven dangerous pest, eliminate it as you would any other.
“Pregnant termites”??
Artistic license. I’ll allow it.
Most of the vicious commenters don’t even know that the government already uses helicopter hunting to control certain animal populations; if they did know, they would most likely not have a problem with it because it’s “the government doing it”. You explained things excellently, and most of the TTAG readers have a greater understanding when it comes to hunting than the antis do. Hell, PETA kills probably just as many shelter animals, if not more, than are hunted every year but they decry hunting as inhumane.
Love my PTR-91…I’ve slayed many a hog with her.
Can’t beat the rugged/reliable design as well as the $2/$3 surplus mags!!!
Ky gun laws are pretty awesome especially compared to the slave states.
We have a state constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
State preemption. It is illegal for anyone to disarm Ky citizens during a time of emergency.
Shall issue.
Open carry is a-ok for everybody.
Nfa items are cool. Knob creek.
No waiting periods.
No licensing or registration bs.
Where Ky could improve would be constitutional carry and nullify nfa gca and gopa.
Watched a video of similar goings-on in Australia. Shooters were using Benellis and buckshot. I think I’d prefer that. Especially with the new flite-control wads. Either way, it’s on my bucket list. As well as the night-stalker version with high powered rifles equipped with night vision optics.
I can tell you down under feral pigs are a very serious problem, and especially in lambing and calving seasons. Helicopter hunting is actually done by the anti-hunting National Parks and Wildlife.
Feral pig numbers have exploded because of National Parks offering safe havens for feral animals, onnerously restrictive firearms licensing that allows little flexibility in hunting locations (you need written permission from the property owner, but there are work arounds), and the anti-hunting stance of the Greens party which has infested the media, public service, and government.
From experience, the best hunting is from dusk to late evening and from just before sun up to mid-morning.
I used to use a SKS with 30 round AK mags and a 10/22 with extended capacity magazines. Good for close work with multiple targets. After Port Arthur, I used a sporterized Swedish Mauser (6.5×55 is an awesome cartridge), 8mm Mauser scout rifle, or .303 No4 in service configuration. My service shooting background works well in feral pig hunting.
I only wish some useless restrictions were relaxed and some decision makers realized that recreational hunters are part of the solution and not an additional problem.
from Binging
http://wildpiginfo.msstate.edu/
Pitch disease control (see tab)
I refinished some surplus wooden G3 furniture (lovely West German walnut) in Tung oil to give my PTR-91 that vintage look. Next I’ll get a rail forearm and a M4 buttstock. Swapping furniture is just a few push pins, when the shooter’s mood changes from period correct to Teutonic Tacticool.
Eh, I’m inclined to believe them. What do they care about gun rights?
They’re a German car company owned by another German car company founded in part by a man who systematically disarmed and then slaughtered millions of people.
If they say it was random, it probably was.
My money is on some mid level manager found some people to sneak this in completely under the noses of the people in charge of this spot.
Friends in low places and everything.
That would be my guess as well. No need to think it’s a conspiracy by the whole company.
If they wanted to do something pro-gun they wouldn’t need to deny it. Kinda wrecks the point.
Maybe it’s like the boner in the Little Mermaid Wedding scene, not put there by a higher up
Friends and I went hunting in Kansas for pheasant 3 years ago. The farm where we hunted was overrun with jack rabbits and cottontails. The farmer told us to hunt all we wanted but he asked us to kill every rabbit we saw. We kept the cottontails and left the jacks for the buzzards. Good hunt.
If God hadn’t wanted people to shoot pestilent feral hogs from a helicopter with a machine gun, She probably wouldn’t have given us pestilent feral hogs or the cleverness to invent helicopters and machine guns.
Doesn’t anybody see what’s going on? The government is stripping our rights slowly away little by little everyday. So it wont be too obvious as if they were to just totally crap on our FEDERAL CONSTITUTION that they have seemed to forget. The administration will continue this agenda until America is just another 3rd world country. Because the real truth is that they know that our 2nd Amendment was given to us to prevent government tyranny. So, they continue gnawing on our rights until one day the dam gives way and finally breaks.
Discretion is good. Or you can wear a pistol duct-taped to your forehead like a tiara if you don’t let strangers into your home.
If a stranger raps on my door at night with a bullshit story to tell, I’m not opening the door to him or her and my answer is “wait right there while I call 911.”
Considering the ad was essentially a cuter/funnier zombie apocalypse, why wouldn’t they support gun ownership?
I’m more inclined to believe the convo went like this:
“Hey, are we cool with this license plate in the ad?”
“Why, whats wrong with it?”
“Well, it says ‘NRA’. What if people think were supporting them?”
“WHAT?! What kind of crazy asshole would think THAT?!”
“A lot of gun people would…”
“…would they then consider buying an Audi?”
“Probably.”
“What about anti-gun people? Would they catch it?”
“Unless we specifically admitted it, probably not.”
“….were keeping the plate.”
1
i give my state (ca) a 1/10. i would rather live here than in ny, ct, or a few others. very few others though.
Hogs are not game to be hunted in a sporting manner any more than roaches are…
Always carry discreetly. As in don’t go to coffee shops with an AR strapped to your back because you are a moron and have something or um nothing to prove. No your youtube likes can’t be taken to your grave.
I carry in my house. I carry a Sig P229 .40 in a Sticky Holster in the appendix position.
The doors are locked and there is an accessible but secured SAM7R (AK47) that is behind an electronic controlled door that opens out. I can have that out in about 6 seconds. There is a color and sound camera that watches the front that the dogs watch because the perspective is correct. They think it’s a window, but they watch it all day and alert me to anyone outside.
Then comes willingness. Without willingness, every gun you own is unloaded and worthless, except to get yourself killed with.
NOBODY, not even the cops are coming in. If it’s the cops, they have a warrant and are kicking the doors anyway. Some dirt-bag kicks in my door, there is a high likelihood they are leaving in a Ziplock bag.
Thugs have no compunction against using basic human decency against their victims.
It’s how they roll.
It’s another reason we need to bring back the rope for rape, murder, child molestation for starters.
I wouldn’t be opposed to hanging serial thieves either. It kept recidivism down in the so-called “Wild West”.
John
Not that I have much compassion for the lives of rapists, but do you know how stupidly easy it is for a woman to get a man locked up for rape?
No, there’s no tactical disadvantages to open carry!
I am sure it is pure coincidence:
Two NRA http://ccs.infospace.com/ClickHandler.ashx?ld=20140207&app=1&c=v9mobile&s=v9mobile&euip=71.238.140.3&pvaid=bf5397a3619e48fe8b9e619bd8b9de23&en=iMwufHpIKsIZY0lgYu5NDOF5ssPpr5X0WUBmSsMb%2fRo%3d&du=mgaleg.maryland.gov%2f2013RS%2fbills%2fhb%2fhb0294F.pdf&ru=http%3a%2f%2fmgaleg.maryland.gov%2f2013RS%2fbills%2fhb%2fhb0294F.pdf&ap=1&coi=771&cop=main-title&npp=1&p=0&pp=0&ep=1&mid=9&hash=439CF5ECD3DE7731AC16E49E53DA0D48
Compromise scares us too
I think everyone will agree that there is a significant difference between sport hunting and mitigating the adverse environmental impact of non native invasive species. Feral hogs/ wild pigs are dangerous and destructive beasts with a population density that cannot be legitimately contained through sport hunting, hence the necessity of herd culling. Whether dispatched via automatic rifle fire from a helo or single shot muzzle loader from the ground floor makes no ethical difference, just one of efficacy and expedience.
Great article Nick. I’m friends with the pilot that flew you, and love what they’re doing. I work in farming and see plenty of hog damage, but I didn’t fully understand how widespread the damage is till I took John flying with me a few times and he pointed out all the signs. Call it hunting, exterminating, massacre; I don’t care and the farmer doesn’t care. I look at the helicopter hunting the same way I look at a crop duster spraying for stinkbugs, just taking care of a pest. If you ever come back I’ll try to make it out and meet you, even take you up in my Cub if you want!
The “hunt like a real man” comments kill me, you mean like sitting on your ass in a tree and waiting for the deer to come to you with a beer in your hand?
Hey Nick…we have a helicopter hog piece on SHOOTING GALLERY this season, with Iain Harrison manning the DD 6.8. I make a point to say very specifically that what we are doing is NOT “sport hunting,” “fair chase,” or any of the other euphemisms we use to describe what we do. We were there to kill pests, and we did.
Don’t give ground, brother.
mb
PS: Hey, I’ve shot animals on OUTDOOR CHANNEL, and they went down pretty quick!
do they come in mens muffin top size ????????????
Do they make one for women who are larger than a size -1? Not everyone is built like Lindsey Lohan.
they sell the quarter pounder with cheese.. it’s sized for the anorexic with a yeast infection.
Doing some detailed homework 3-4 years ago on pig-hunting in CA,
including talking to many senior people in the know, reading hunting forums, talking with long-time respected hunters and wildlife pro’s,
and from a couple of years working with people in the conservation/environmental side of things, I have to say,
I have a sense that theres a sea-change. The old guys who were hunters, while also serving in USFS, Parks, BLM, and game wardens and land managers, were experienced and wise, and understood the honorable and ethical core of most hunters, and what most sportsmen are like, think Ducks Unlmited, for example. It wasnt an us-vs-them feeling.
But I dont get that from he newest generation of people entering the wildlife and land management business, especially at the government agencies-
Excuse me for being politcally incorrect, but after years of diversity hiring, and the kinds of state politics you can imagine in CA, combined with the changing demographic of college kids seeking jobs outdoors- theres a much higher percentage, I would guess- in the metro areas for sure, where the Enviro Majors from UC Bezerkley, are indoctrinated, and other kids raised on Earth Day, and Gaia, and picking up litter on the beach after surfing, rather than growing up hunting. As a result, the narrative seems to be along the lines of ‘developers and gun owners are evilllll people’ as a form of religious belief, and you kind of get a sense of it watching something like Wild Justice, the NatGeo reality TV show about game wardens: All the hunters are trailer trash poaching scumbags and the heavliy armed military garbed eco-boys are saving the planet from climate warming.
Well, thats probably not fair, but you get my drift.
Let me restate the obvious, like everyone else has, for the umpteenth time: she’s full of crap and has no intention whatsoever of doing anything but lie and deny her way into office where she’ll promptly start to snatch guns. Now that that’s out of the way, here’s what she should have done.
She should have said that no, she isn’t in favor of open carry, and then cited some of the various plausible, if insufficient, arguments against it:
Supposedly places a “shoot me first” sign on carriers.
Announces to the world that you own firearms and possibly other valuables at home.
Reveals to your extended family and in-laws your ownership status, prompting senseless arguments with people you can’t readily avoid.
Could alarm your neighbors into forbidding their kids from playing with your kids in your gun-laden home.
Could make trouble for yourself at work if you’re seen armed about town and people wonder whether you’re carrying concealed while at work in violation of policy.
You could have the gun snatched from your non-retention holster.
You could have the gun not presented quickly enough from your retention holster.
You could negligently discharge because your retention holster’s release button is positioned too low and is aligned with the trigger as you draw.
Could lead to racial profiling as police use your open carrying as a pretext to search and demand I.D.
Diminishes the overall deterrent value of concealed carry as criminals start to assume that all that they see is all that there is.
After coming off astonishingly well informed for a supposedly closed minded, ignorant gun grabber, she could have then gone on to say that even though she’s against it for these reasons and more, she’s learned one thing in her many years of professional career and public service. It’s that the key to wisdom is never to stop listening and learning. So she’d be willing to support a full legislative debate on the open carry topic and if the arguments presented held sway, then she would dutifully sign the bill and make it the law of the land.
Of course, it would all just have been masterful political show(wo)manship from a lying, conniving gun grabbing statist, but it would have appeared so thoughtful and prudent that the opposition would be disarmed and unable to use any element of firearms politics against her. Instead, she tried to sell us this ham-handed, incredible “Me, too!” b.s. which absolutely nobody is buying. What an amateur.
Doors locked 24/7, gun in IWB under a shirt. It is no ones business that I am armed. In fact no one in our neighborhood knows we are armed. It is strictly need to know.
As an Arizonan I rate Texas just slightly better than California. I mean, you guys can’t even legally carry a gun openly.
AZ has a perfect zero (0) score from the Brady Bunch. With a bit more work we can put that into negative numbers by the end of the legislative session.
I have 250rds of 762 Nagant 98gr loaded ammo that was a miss order. This is brand new reloadable brass. Asking $125.00 plus shipping. grizzly.killer at I cloud. com
State compliant please. Willing to trade for 762×25 or 9mm makorav ammo of equal value
This is the problem with American’s, they’re just willing to hand over their liberty and the things that protect our liberty over to the illegally acting thugs. There can be NO kind of “police squads” like this if our govt (whether it be local to the national level, Constitution applies to all levels) we’re in compliance with the Rule of Law. It’s not, so we get this crap. Even IF he had a felony, so what??? He would be out & had served his time, & legally, he cannot be stripped of his natural rights. He still has the right to keep & bear arms! I would’ve said come back with that warrant & let them threaten me with arrest because they’d come back & many of them would not leave alive. At this point (we’ve been at this point for awhile too, it’s almost like it’s hanging in the air waiting for us to start reacting finally) in America, no matter where you are, blue/red state/city, the days of complying should end & the reactions of armed groups of patriots & individual patriots should respond accordingly to these armed govt thugs. This is what makes America awesome & why we fought to have this nation created. If we fail to restore Her then we deserve this all. Period.
Two words: Concealed Carry
Arizona: Almost no restrictions on carry.
We bought two “Bushwacker” chest holsters, one for me and one for my wife. She absolutely loves it. It feels great, and disappears nicely.
“Because a lot of SHOT Show debutantes take a long time to really come out and dance.”
How true.
On one end of the spectrum, you have the chinese making tens of thousands items a day and yes, they are small little devices, easily stored and shipped but when they announce a product and people flood to the stores, APPLE, can deliver them from the inventory in the back room.
But the other side of the spectrum is gun makers showing vapor at SHOT show and then customers are not just waiting in line, like the Apple store, they are waiting for any Glock 42’s or XDs 9’s to arrive at all at Gander or Cabelas. I live right between two Gander Mtn stores and niether have yet to get the 42 in let alone have one to fight over. I’d like to hold one before I buy.
Why is the marketing and delivery of guns so off kilter compared to other industry supply chains?
Anylists, please speak up.
First look at yourself! Are you being reasonable with your assertion that your daughter’s school is all that dangerous.
Before Sandy Hook, when was the last time that someone walked into an elementary school and slaughtered the kids inside? Then add up all the victims in the last 30 years of those assaults and divide that into the number of children that have gone to elementary schools in that time period. You will see that those schools are one of the safest place a child can be. More children have probably died at school from peanut allergies than homicide. Sandy Hook was horrible, but what happened there was an outlier statistically.
http://www.rescue-essentials.com/celox-a/
This has been available for a few years, maybe you could do a comparison test?
Robert, you have already made it on the list of parents to be “looked at closely”. What that means is that you have already been judged as a probable nut job by the guy that is patting your empty holster every time he sees you. And you need to realize that he is patting that holster hoping to catch you on the day it is full so he can call the police and have you locked up. You are not going to have any influence on that person, that opertunity has passed by. Best case is to GINGERLY find out if there are any like minded people on the school board, or parent teacher’s organization and see if you can build some sort of committee, coalition, action group, etc from there. But you need to tread carefully to avoid being publically branded as a dangerous person to have near a school. Do you know anyone in law enforcement either active or retired that can speack to the admistration at school on how to improve security? Does the school have a contract with a security firm for alarms, etc that you can contact and ask them about broaching the subject of improving things? Because of your owning this blog, and because you are on the principal’s list, you really need to find someone to advocate on your behalf or a group of people that will stand with you, because you are not going to be listened to alone. Please be careful and smart about this, I do not want to read of you being the victim of a no-knock raid because the police got called by an educator with irrational fears of guns and the people that own them.
Train within your budget. If all your budget allows is some weekend shooting, so be it. Saving up for a good class will obviously help however.
What calibers does that applicator come in….sheesh!?
I’m sure this has nothing to do with the midterm elections coming up.
I dumped NRA 20 Plus years ago. Got tired of their attitude that Only They were in charge of the 2ndA (and earning a million a year ay my expense)
Wow, looking at all these comments makes me see why people from other countries see Americans, especially those from Texas, as a people that cares only about themselves. You’re scary !
what people need to realize is that the hogs are not native to the USA. they were brought in for farm animals to eat.
When they get loose, whether by accident, hurricane, what ever they end up becoming feral ( wild). they grow tusks etc… and become very distructive.
we have the issue here in NC also.
Nick, I have to say that your article – though well reasoned – seems just your attempt to justify your practice. I’m someone who is totally supportive of military and gun ownership rights, so don’t get me wrong here. You mentioned ethics of hunting – mainly the kills should be humane – but that has to be number one, buddy – not something you rationalize away. That means you get off your butt and go hunt them from the ground, in the field. Your excuse that they run fast and are tricky means what exactly? That you change your moral code for your convenience? No, it means your job is harder – so suck it up and put out the effort – if Texas needs more ethical hunters, taking more time and more effort, to do it humanely; then so be it.
I’m not going to say you’re a “sick, twisted f**k” (a salute to Misery 1990, lol), but you should rethink your ethics. You write to the effect “this isn’t hunting, its pest eradication”. Bruddah, that is just Nazi speak – or Jihad speak – first you dehumanize your target – whether its Jews, Gypsies or Infidels – then you do what you like because your conscience is free. We don’t have a word like “dehumanize” when we’re talking about animals – but the concept is the same – You are rationalizing to say “hogs are pests”; when the reality is hogs are mammals with a developed brain and emotion; they can feel pain and therefore as a moral being you have the ethical responsibility to mitigate suffering. You know that when you shoot from the air many of the hogs die slowly and with suffering.
Your argument that using a machine gun mitigates suffering is just wrong, and I think you know it. Killing ‘fast’ doesn’t equate to killing ethically. A kill can take place over a long time, ethically, if your motivation and actions are morally correct. Let’s say you’re hunting a deer – if you only wound and don’t get the kill on a first shot – you continue tracking the animal until you’re able to finish the job. It might be sad or upsetting that the animal had to suffer – but you didn’t intentionally adopt a method that you know causes gratuitous suffering. In your case you know that many of the animals lay writhing on the ground after you pass comfortably by in your helo, on to the next animal. If you can do that, then I lose all respect for you and don’t know how you live with yourself on that. A pang of regret afterwards doesn’t absolve you. And it doesn’t make you more human if you don’t use that regret as motivation to seek a better way. If you choose to hunt from the sky – then there should be a code – that you must determine the animal is truly dead before you move on to the next one.
The fact that hogs cause property and crop damage amounting to a large cost just means that society is going to have to pony up an offsetting cost to cull the herd. Maybe it requires an advertising campaign to encourage and train more ethical hunters – or arrange for “Hog Safaris” – on foot with rifle requiring several days at a time – instead of by helicopter with machine gun for a couple of hours.
Bottom line – humane and ethical practice means making sure the animal is killed with as little suffering as possible and being 100% sure the animal is dead before moving on to the next one. I appreciate your reading the comments and emails and trying to do the right thing – why not organize and campaign for a true hog hunting safari like I mentioned – doing it the right way. Aloha.
I find this a little morally questionable and your explanation doesn’t seem to quell the issues I have with this practice. it seems to me that your main defense of this practice is that killing hogs is lucrative for farmers. Which to me is not a acceptable defense of this. You know what else is lucrative for farmers? Horribly mistreating animals or polluting rivers/lakes to avoid expensive chemical disposal fees.
Furthermore I don’t like your moral cop out that is, “you didn’t think of them as animals you thought of them as targets” what the fuck kind of excuse is that? “sorry officer I didn’t think of my kids and wife as people I thought of them as punching bags” is a statement expressing the same sentiment. If you do something unethical it is unethical weather or not you thought it was or not.
Now I’m not saying I’m dead against this practice, I certainly see the draw to this I mean if somebody offered me a trip to shoot hogs with a assault rifle I’d have a very hard time declining that offer. But i do think your explanation still leaves you in a morally gray area.
At $3,895 for 2 people for 2 hours – I am sure this is a very cost effective way to bring down the hog population – how long will it be before the guys at helibacon completely eradicate these vermin?
its been so long since i thought “pig hunters in texas or georgia should use machine guns!”
pigs are a plague in texas and you should eliminate them in the best way. but i have heard that boar hunting is popular. if you get one boar you get just one pig. but get one sow, and you could eliminate ten pigs!
sorry about this, but i just had to say it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ima_Hogg
the First Lady of Texas
oh well…
Don’t have an issue with hunting, dont have an issue with hunting Wild Bore, they are a menace, destroy crop and what you want.
Do have an issue with shooting animals out of a helicopter with an automatic rifle, if done on single shot maybe, but on full auto? Typical way to act for americans in general….. dump as much ammo on your target as possible and your bound to hit something…. This is disgusting… here in Europe we hunt like man are supposed to hunt, on the ground with a bolt action rilfe and if we need to regulate a bigger territory we simply use more real men…..This got nothing to do with hunting…. this is a faggot wanting to kill something legally with an automatic on full auto…..
just my 2 cents…
A couple of facts for the BBQ enthusiast feed and the neighbors or the poor folks advocates.
When the getting is good or the weather is wet or its too hot or whatever other excuse can be drummed upā¦..most of the hogs are left in the field after the helicopter boys are doneā¦.hypothetically it’s about eradication.
Conclusion: This is not a feed the poor program or even about a tasty pork chopā¦.it’s buzzard and coyote chow
A couple of facts for the effectiveness proponents
If you take the numbers reported killed (required by federal law) by the proponents/practioners of the program and the stated breeding habits and apply it to the existing population in Texas fro example. You will arrive at the astounding conclusion that the feral hog population in Texas will increase from a few million to a few trillion in the next 10 years even if they double the kill rate every year.
Conclusion: Something else controls hog populations much better than helicopter hunts or we would have them walking down every street in every town in Texas and you couldn’t grow a stalk of corn anywhere.
Suggestion: Find out what that is and make it happen better.
Fact for the entrepreneurs
Under the current program in Texas a helicopter owner can net $10,000 – $15,000 per/day if he can book the hunts. If he can get 2-3 days per week at that rate he can pay off a Robinson 4 place bird in less than a year.
This is paid for by folks that are looking for the experience of shooting something from a helicopterā¦.for the most part none of the parties involved are the farmers/ranchers that are being harmed by feral hog populations.
Question for proponents:
Do the parties involved have a vested interest in killing all the hogs or do they have a financial or pleasure benefit?
Another point on effectivenessā¦
The non-stakeholder parties involved can’t get permission to fly where ever they want. They may have permission to fly over say 15,000 acres and immediately adjacent property holders don’t want them to have overflight privileges. Since I think most of us would conclude that these financially incentivized and pleasure seeking parties won’t or can’t kill all of the hogs on the property in one or 2 days, the hogs just move to adjoining property. Their may be no agricultural interest on those properties so they don’t have any incentive to allow the helicopter guys to fly their property. In fact that property owner may charge people to hunt hogs.
Conclusion: Non stake-holders are not incentivized to effectively control the feral swine population. The agr-ibusiness landowner can achieve a temporary reprieve in depredating swine populations, but when the weather turns hot and the crops are growing good, fewer and fewer shooters want to get up and get sweaty while taking their pleasure popping off a few rounds at the hogs trickling back in over the property line.
A few un-intended consequences
When the property owner (Texas ) signs his paperwork, he gives the helicopter operator the right to assign, and sell, rights to the general public to fire a weapon from a helicopter at the depredating species for a period of one year.
The operator will sell as much of that as he canā¦
He will then fly the properties he has rights to as much as he can book business for, regardless of whether there is a hog problem there or not. He has a business to run.
The operator flies further and longer on the property as hogs thin out and eventually disappear. The operator flies lower and slower. Every other animal on that property, deer, turkey, duck, goose, bobcat, coyote, cow, sheep, goat, javelina etcā¦..runs, walks or flys to get out of the way of the whirly bird. Anything that can leaves, anything that can’t just gets pestered with regularity.
Fact:
In 1971 the Federal government passed into law a ban on aerial hunting and harassment of wildlife. The act also allows states to make their own rules with regards to making law to control depredating species by aerial means.
Texas lawmakers decided that the feral swine problem was of such a magnitude that it now allows for aerial control of depredating species specifically feral swine and coyotes. That law also makes it a defense against prosecution for wildlife harassment if in pursuit of depredating species.
The first Texas law and subsequent rules from Texas Parks and Wildlife, proved to be nearly useless, it required that the party being harmed (agribusiness) to pay for the helicopter operator and gunner or go up in the bird and do the shooting themselves.
The law was crafted that way so that it was rather obvious to anyone, that this is NOT aerial hunting.
Question: Why was this so ineffective? If there are millions of dollars being lost by agri-business it would seem obvious that it would pay to kill hogs. No different than spraying herbicides right?
The Texas legislature then amended the law and directed Texas Parks and Wildlife to allow the sale of the gunner position on the helicopter to “land owner agents”. This is accomplished by the landowner giving the operator the right to assign his rights to interested parties.
Opinion: This last act strips away the veil of the “control of depredating species” and makes it what it really is. The sale of aerial hunts for feral hogs and coyotes. Those of you who are hiding behind this are just making excuses.
It is what it is.
I don’t find the act itself to be disturbing. I do take great offense to the harassment and displacement of native wildlife species and the subsequent concentration and overcrowding of same.
Being a student of human nature I also can see many ways that the activity can be legally exploited to drive native game animals to or away from one property to another where the non-stakeholders can benefit in other ways.
Conclusion: I am against this practice in it’s current manifestation in the State of Texas due to its unintended consequences and potential exploitive nature. If agribusiness has a bone to pick with feral hogs let em pick it.
I am a hunter and I realize your point that this is not hunting, but I still find it unethical. I don’t have a problem with you providing the service because as long as its legal someone will. Everyone in Texas complains about the hogs, but no one will let you hunt for free. I see this as a way for guys with a lot of money to kill as many hogs as they can with very little effort. If farmers and ranchers are so concerned about the hog damage then how about a free place to hunt. I have posted ads offering to hunt problem hogs day or night anytime and with great care. Guess what, I have never had one person contact me. Hogs may be a problem for some, but it’s not a problem they want to get rid of without making some money on it. Fly Safe!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx66ys4JG5o
yes its that bad
This is a terrible argument supporting an inherently unethical method.
Your argument has four flaws:
1) The ranches these activities take place on actively feed and bait the pigs for sport hunting – destroying your pest control argument. You cannot purposely feed a population to support it as a source of revenue and then claim you’re just doing what must be done.
2) If you’re really doing a service to the farmers who claim they just want to be rid of the hogs, why do they make you pay instead of inviting all hunters to get rid of all of the hogs? This shows the landowners aren’t actually concerned for their property or the environment, they just want to line their pockets with the excuse of a righteous crusade.
3) This method results in non-fatal wounding and less humane kills – breaking the hunter’s code.
4) None or very little of the meat is put to productive use – also breaking the hunter’s code.
This is what happens when the mall ninja culture seeps into hunting. You and your “tactical” behavior are a blight on our great sport. You’re just expending ammo for the thrill of killing something that can’t bite back. Get on the ground in a blind like a man if you want a thrill. I can tell you’re not a true and committed hunter – you’re just a range ninja who decided to kill something for a change of pace.