There’s an odd anti-gun meme making the scene amongst the forces of civilian disarmament: open carry is racist. Progressive radio host Thom Hartman recently echoed the sentiment when he posited that “open carry is for white people.” Keep in mind this is coming from the anti-gun side. They’re saying there shouldn’t be open carry and it’s wrong that blacks can’t do it because it’s racist.
Confused? Me too. But it’s certainly true that the vast majority of black Americans haven’t embraced their natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms. For whatever reason — something to do with gun control laws created to deprive them of that right.
It’s also true that police may not be entirely comfortable with blacks carrying guns legally — especially in high crime areas. Methinks it’s something to do with a lack of history in that regard. A “fact” that Rev, Ken Blanchard acknowledges.
https://youtu.be/-8xTIYs8dvA
Does that mean it’s more dangerous for a black man (or woman) to carry a gun legally than a white person? And if it does, what can be done to de-escalte the situation. Wouldn’t open carry by people of color help establish that right amongst the police and predators who exploit civilian disarmament?
YES…
yup
If the question is based on statistical numbers , then yes . If you break it down into sub categories , no .
For instance .
Is it more dangerous for a black man to carry a gun , who lives in a nice middle class neighborhood along with whites and Hispanics and Asians , has a good respectable job making a decent living who is known in his community and by the police who protect that community as a good family man , obeys the laws and supports the police , then no , is not .
Is it more dangerous for a white man to carry a gun , who lives in a drug infested trailer park with run down cars , known by the law enforcement community as such , drives a broken down car , probably unsafe , spends all the cash they can beg barrow and steal on dope , and other vice , cannot support a family or keep a job and has repeated violations of the laws , yes it is .
Do police profile ? Yes they do and so would I and so do I . Is it wrong to profile ? It is common sense .
Do blacks disproportionately have more crime in their neighborhoods , drive more racketedly cars , be unlicensed , have greater propensity to break laws , have greater incidences of drug usage and be unemployed , from broken families’ and creating broken families , arrested and jailed more and in general at odds with the police ? Of coarse they do .
It all goes back to employment , legitimate income ( earned ) and the personal respect that follows with it . The problems stem from Government programs that are designed to replace the family with the state and to eliminate the jobs that would pull these young black men back up and out of poverty .
DETRIOT ???????????
An excellent question and I would like to know the answer too. However, the “newsy” guy frames the question wrongly. He gives examples that were not the typical black dude walking around with a gun. In two cases (Walmart shooter and Tamir Rice) the young men were kinda “swatted”. Tamir (a kid and forgivable and tragic) acted wrongly when the cops (who acted wrongly) rolled up on him. However, Minnesota Man and Louisiana Dude dont seem squeeky clean anymore.
I, for one, will do anything I can do to ensure that black folks have the same right to carry and to do so safely, as I do. Truth be told, violent crime is more prevalent in areas with higher percentages of black folk than where I live and they need it more than I do.
Reagan was generally awesome. However, he really screwed the pooch on this one when CA governor. But, it is CA and that can make anyone bat$hit crazy .
“I, for one, will do anything I can do to ensure that black folks have the same right to carry and to do so safely, as I do. Truth be told, violent crime is more prevalent in areas with higher percentages of black folk than where I live and they need it more than I do.”
+1
I’m confused. What did Tamir Rice do wrong in his two second encounter with law enforcement?
Playing with a BB gun while BLACK-oh and being “big” for a 12 year old…
Actually, Tamir was pointing the gun at people in a neighborhood rocked by gang violence and drive buys. This is why the report was phoned in. When the police pulled up, Tamir reached for the gun. When I was a child, living in an inner city ghetto, I used to play with my umbrella by pretending it was a gun. I would point it at people and swing it around. My mother admonished me not to do this, since from a distance the black umbrella could have been mistaken for a sawed-off shotgun. I stopped doing that, and, given the prevalence of people being reported for umbrella s who are merely walking down the street, it is good that I did. Tamir was a victim of indifferent parenting, like so many in my community. I am a man of color, and I don’t find racism in Tamir’s death. Maybe you shouldn’t either.
FedUp – I was going to just let your question sit without response but after thinking about it, I suppose I owe you an answer. By the way, my intent here is to do only that, I don’t mean to really debate this issue for reasons I hope will be obvious.
As I stated in my original post above, Tamir’s actions were wrong. But I stated they were forgivable – he was, after-all, only 12 years old. Even at 12 (and earlier), I never pointed my fake play guns at other people. In the longer video clip, you can see he is doing this. That is “wrong”. You know, to the level your get your ass chewed out by your parents or some other adult level wrong. However, understandable … he was a kid – kids are stupid.
Secondly, the cops actions in speeding up to him and yelling at him and indeed pulling guns on him were wrong (and perhaps understandable). I THINK that Tamir was going for his airsoft pistol to drop it on the ground like a hot potato to be overly obedient to the cop’s will. That was “wrong”. But again, a kid – and kids are stupid.
I will agree that Tamir is both a tragic case and perhaps not the best example I could have used. However, I also think Tamir’s case is used to support the idea that a black man cannot be armed in our society. It is a poor supportive example for this … and that was my intent in mentioning him.
I BELIEVE it IS more dangerous for a Black Man to Carry a Gun Legally Than a White Man. But only by a small degree and without good evidence to support my belief. I also BELIEVE that it has more to do with the fact that amongst the POTG, we have fewer black members so encountering a peaceful armed black man is more rare than a non-peaceful black man (a meme promulgated by our biased media). I remember when Open Carry Texas was planning to do an open carry walk through a predominately black neighborhood to raise awareness about rights of black people for self protection. OCT was effectively shut down by the black community Overlords and called racists. Progressivism is such a quaint name for an ideology that enslaves.
No, I don’t think that it is, assuming that you are talking about concealed carry. The answer is yes, if you are talking about open carry.
That would not surprise me, but we’re guessing here. There must be somebody who has investigated that question, this is not supposed to be secret, right? How many white and how many black persons hold CCW licenses or live in states where licenses are not required? How many whites on that list have been arrested/shot/killed by police versus how many blacks? Might be interesting to subdivide men and women, as well. Info has to be out there somewhere.
This is not a gun question. This is a socio-economic question. In those areas of Democratic controlled inner city gun control economically depressed utopia I would answer yes. In fly over territory, not so much. Here in Virginia (I say here, even though I’m currently in the Middle East) color and guns don’t seem to bother anyone. It seems that the rule of law, well, rules.
TTAG deals with most aspects of guns and gun culture.
The post is relevant…
Geoff – I wasn’t questioning the relevance of the post. I was commenting that the ownership of a gun is not the determining factor as the question posed. In engineering there are primary forces and secondary forces. The question was posed as though guns were a primary force. I believe that they are not. That other forces are the primary determining factors as to whether or not the color of skin affects how people perceive gun owners.
Gman, that wasn’t the question, tho. The question was whether it was more dangerous for a black to carry a gun.
Actually the comment is relevant. Because it’s all about the context. For instance, was it more dangerous for Jews during WWII to openly wear a Magen? Probably not if they were living in the US… but definitely if they were living in Germany. And yes, it’s a awful extrapolation example, but sometimes absurd arguments permit to see more clearly on a problem.
Almost all I have spoken to who wanted to open carry, were afraid to do so because they were black. I have no way of knowing if that is a realistic concern (I am a Heinz-57 but my skin is light enough) or not but that was the reason given. The fact was that they believed it. As long as the perception is there, it is going to impede a segment of the population from openly bearing arms. Also unfortunate, some may not be against bearing arms openly but the fact that they do not makes it appear as though the number opposing is larger than it really is.
This is why the actions of Hughes in Dallas were so signification.
#1: He is black and he “dared” OC a rifle.
Shatters the meme of both ‘armed black men’ and ‘scary black rifles’ in one go. The dude had a smile on his face and committed no crime.
#2: When things started going bad, he did the “right thing.”
This shatters the pieces left over from (1) above.
I neither know nor care about Mr. Hughes politics or his reasons for being there in that place at that time.
What I DO know and care about is that by living example, he created cognitive dissonance among those who
(a) Can’t stand black men and think they are all violent criminals and cop haters
(b) Everyone (including black men) that owns a AR pattern rifle is a “bad guy.”
(c) Gun owners will always make bad choices in stressful situations
(d) There’s no way the cops can tell good guys from bad guys and you will “just get shot.”
By being a decent citizen both before and after the shooting started, he took a VERY LARGE BITE out the anti’s bullsqueeze claims.
Mr. Hughes took a large step forward for ALL gun owners. He probably did not intend to; he probably did not seek to do this specifically.
But, that’s the way of most “heroes.” So, I vote for Mr. Hughes to get the Gun Owner of the Freaking Month Award.
Very good points.
Great post. I agree. Gun Hero of the Month and in the running for Gun Hero of the Year.
Yes, for now.
About half of all black males have been arrested by the age of 23. So, police look at YBMs with great suspicion. YBM with a gun? Even more suspicion.
This will change as more people carry and as fewer YBMs are arrested. Enforcing the law is becoming a useless and more dangerous practice, so enforcement will naturally slack off over time (e.g., Baltimore). Then the process of urban renewal will begin as neighborhoods burn.
I’ll make popcorn.
Which obviously reduces by 50% the population of likely legal/licensed CCW carriers. Add in that this population is concentrated in progtard urban hive/cesspools that tend not to issue CCW license to ANYONE not vastly connected.
Roberts point “it’s certainly true that the vast majority of black Americans haven’t embraced their natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms leaves out the qualifier of “LEGALLY” they may not have a gov’t license and probably shouldn’t given past bad actions. That does not mean they are not carrying. Or perhaps reports of mass shooting every weekend in Chicago/etc are fiction.
The “law abiding” or former criminal in these areas may be carrying. Who could know? Not going to find that data with a survey any more than will get valid data in a survey of the users of this great site on mere LEGAL ownership. These folks are illegally carrying (or even owning). If they have to actually use the tool odds are they going to shoot a POS that needed killing anyhow and they logical followup would be to QUICKLY make like a rabbit. This may make up a % of the every weekend unsolved shootings (a lawabiding citizen defending himself and deserves a medal).
Which obviously reduces by 50% the population of likely legal/licensed CCW carriers.
Not necessarily. The 50% figure represents all arrests, not necessarily felony arrests and not necessarily convictions. I couldn’t find the felony/conviction numbers, but they’re around somewhere.
Ralph, do you have a link to the number of 50%? I don’t doubt of you, I just like facts source to use them during argument. Thanks!
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-01/uosc-sho010314.php
Thanks!!
No it’s more dangerous for a black man to carry a white man. It’s not as handy as a gun, and much heavier.
What if it’s Wee Man?
Then he is a liberal and no self respecting gun owner would carry him.
Does that mean it’s more dangerous for a black man (or woman) to carry a gun legally than a white person? Yes.
And if it does, what can be done to de-escalate the situation. Like it or not, Blacks and their surrounding urban communities are perceived as being of a high crime profile. It will not get too much better until a lot of people change their minds in relation to having a toxic thug culture lifestyle.
Wouldn’t open carry by people of color help establish that right amongst the police and predators who exploit civilian disarmament? It might if the black leadership in the community would quit wallowing in the Slave and Victim Culture and promote responsible citizenship and real positive betterment and true responsible citizenship integration for black people and real betterment their communities.
I consider black leadership and black culture to be totally suck a$$, especially for blacks.
This. Modern black culture is SO toxic. A good friend of mine recently moved to Southwest Colorado (where I live) from East Oakland, where he had been for 4 years. He’s Puerto Rican, but he was DEEPLY entrenched in that culture for that whole time period. Despite the fact that so many of them depend of welfare, food stamps, and govt-subsidised housing, there is an OVERWHELMINGLY strong mentality that getting a legitimate job is a betrayal of your people, and that you’re doing a terrible thing by working for the “white man” and paying taxes. So, if you have any ambition at all besides small time hustling, you will be ostracized at best, and killed at worst.
Because it’s simple. Slavery still exists in America, it’s just black on black and they refuse to acknowledge it.
They are enslaved by drugs, violence, and gangs.
Boom.
If the logic behind BLM is that blacks are being mistreated and oppressed by police officers because of a perception that blacks are all drug addicted, gang-banging, and illegally armed thugs, then I have to ask:
Where does the concept of the drug-using, violent, thug-life black person come from?
Is it just the inner city communities where the gangs actually exist? Or maybe it’s all the rappers that grew up with that lifestyle but are now all over the media celebrating drug use and thug-life behavior? And who sees this image of the rich, successful black rapper? Black youth. Rappers are your role models in the absence of stable family structure. Great, so the thug life style is not just something to ridicule or avoid, it’s something to aspire to be.
Freedom of speech is one thing, but you have to ignorant if you think spreading and endorsing the thug lifestyle is doing the black community any favors.
Do you see the white culture predominantly celebrating meth or being a redneck? Generally no, we satirize it, mock it, and move on. Sure we have our embarrassing moments like Beiber and Miley, but no one takes their lifestyle seriously.
I’m not saying there aren’t cases of police officers being poorly trained and that are racist. That is shameful and they need to really retool the PD system.
But the root issue is perception vs. reality and the black community has been shooting themselves in the foot for decades.
Actually, the rap culture of drugs, bangin’, b!tches and hoes, that has supereceded the traditional black culture of family, faith and working hard, is a corporate construct. Look at the rise of NWA during the 90’s, Too Live Crew vs Public Enemy and X-Clan, Queen Latinas and LL. One side of the rap game promoted debauchery while the other promoted self reliance, working hard and responsibility. Which one came out on top? The reason rap beca me so popular so fast wasn’t because the music spoke to so many white kids in suburbia, there was promotion. I believe that IF we can get more black people to get off of the plantation, cops will not view us as. More black people know that self protection is our right and that the best tool to protect ourselves is not 91, than many people realize. We are really afraid/concerned about the reaction to our carrying a gun. So most do it secretly. I want to be legal, I may have had issues in my past, that doesn’t mean that I don’t still have a right to protect myself against an aggressor. Many young people make mistakes and pay the punishment for the rest of their lives. This is partially the point with the criminal just us systen that many black people have issue with. With the very public criminality of one of the candidates, now more white people are seeing the just us system for what it has always been…black people were just the target for so much longer….at least that’s how we view it.
The Democrat party is the owner – Slavery still exists in America, it’s just black on black and they refuse to acknowledge it.
Financed with your tax $.
“Over the span of more than a decade, 2,151 whites died by being shot by police compared to 1,130 blacks. In that respect, Medved is correct”
And Punditfact says this information is correct
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/aug/21/michael-medved/talk-show-host-police-kill-more-whites-blacks/
“Medved said that police kill more whites than blacks. In absolute terms, that is accurate. However, the statement ignores that there are more than five times more whites than blacks in America. When comparing death rates, blacks are about three times more likely than whites to die in a confrontation with police.”
However, Blacks as a population are also 95% more likely to be involved in unlawful activity that brings the police running. That is also a true fact.
Meaning, the police are more likely to encounter a Black man at the scene of a crime and thus have their bias. If they change their culture of crime, so will the numbers. Socio-economic conditions and culture will make it incredibly hard to change. For example, a news clip that has been making the rounds this morning is an interview with some protestors in Baton Rouge — the reporter asked if they believe there should be due process before convicting the cop as they are doing at the protest. The person answering says “yo don’t need nos due process, we gots video. video is all the evidence yo damn need — puts him to jail now” — that will be hard to impossible thinking to change.
When you relate that to guns, yes in some areas seeing a black man with a gun will be a scary thing until there is a culture change first.
An additional demonstration would be the many other races/cultures which do not have the problem, Indians, Asians, Pakistanis, the list is endless.
I think that this is true.
Throughout history, freedom has never been given freely by the political class, it always has to be taken back. Ideally, peacefully- but it always entails risk. In the long run, people become desensitized. In the short run, it may be indeed dangerous for a law abiding black or brown person to openly carry. The question boils down to whether freedom is worth the risk. You may get swatted. You may get arrested. You may get harassed.
I tip my hat to people who are courageous enough to risk their lives and break barriers.
“. . . freedom has never been given freely by the political class, it always has to be taken back.” Agree. And, that entails some risk on the part of those of us PotG; regardless of color.
OFWG here. I don’t want the last few seconds of my life come down as follows: “Yes officer, here is my CCW, D/L, registration and insurance; flash – bang.” If I don’t stand up for a black man or woman who exercises his/her 2A rights then they won’t be there protesting my shooting in cold blood.
First thing for us to ask of OURSELVES is: Do I have any responsibility for my own behavior? What can I do to reduce my own risk? I am not merely a victim of a police stop; I am one of 2 participants in an armed encounter. I have a duty to behave responsibly.
We PotG – collectively – need to develop the best possible protocol for presenting our CCW card and handling the encounter. Turn on dome light? Put hands on window sill or staring wheel? Protocol to follow for disarming? Do it myself or insist that the officer cuff me first and then remove my gun? LEOs; we need some input from you guys here.
Now, then, when a carrier – who is NOT a prohibited person – follows this protocol then the LEO has NO pretext to draw, let alone shoot.
I am not so naive as to imagine that no LEO will ever draw and shoot when a citizen follow the protocol. However, he will then face the consequences of use of lethal force without justification.
Next step is to seek a political solution. We are voters in our municipalities and States. We are entitled to demand that LEOs be equipped with on-body cameras and rules of engagement (i.e., if the body cam is NOT running during a citizen encounter then the presumption is against the officer.) No video; no “qualified immunity”. The LEO faces the widow and a jury of his peers in court for a determination of the facts.
The good guys will be vindicated; the bad guys will be dead or in prison. Same consequences for LEOs and thugs.
My conjecture is that the overwhelming majority of LEO shootings are justified by the “citizen’s) use of lethal force or resisting arrest. Some of the remainder are due to a mis-understanding that might have been mitigated if the citizen observing good protocol. The remainder are LEO error despite the citizen following good protocol.
Our citizen-being-detained-by-LEO protocol has to be as by-the-book as our observance of the 4 rules. Then, we can demand body-cams and demand LEOs account for every bullet. When that happens, we can expect that unjustified LEO killings will fall from a small fraction to near-zero.
We will also have the video that defends PROPER use of lethal force by LEOs. If I’m correct – and I pray that I’m correct – that most LEO use of lethal force is justified then we will have the evidence to show fair-minded voters that LEOs are not gunning-down black people with wanton disregard to their right to life. To the extent that my optimism is unjustified we will see trigger-happy LEOs retiring or being fired.
We will all – LEO and citizen alike – carry a little easier.
+1000
The sad fact of the matter is, is that out in the sticks (rural America)where historically racism was prevalent, nowadays an African American would be safer to carry, America as a whole is generally not racist.. Things appear to change when it comes to the inner cities of America where progressiveness and liberalism prevail.. The same ideology that claims to be for minorities, has created an environment where being a minority is already a set back right from the beginning
CedarDog, you make a great point … one I haven’t seen really made before. I have lived in the big cities and in the dinky rural towns. You made me realize that anger and hate and racism are much more prevalent in the larger more urban (more progressive) settings. In small town Texas, at least my small town in Texas, we really don’t see color – just a neighbor.
But in the cities it seems race is all the rage and vice versa. Both institutionally and individually. I think I am sadder knowing seeing this reality, but perhaps knowledge will be power.
In rural and small town American folks tend to have to rely on their neighbors when stuff goes sideways. Co-operation is a must when blizzards,tornadoes, thunderstorms, etc. wreck shop.
You had better be at least civil with your neighbors before such events happen.
+10
I agree with that friend.. I would like to think at least I’m my neck of the woods (as redneck as it can be) people would rely on each other rather than government… Katrina to use an example
Gun control as it applies in the United States is what is racist. Large cities that have the most restrictive laws (Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, etc) also have large black populations. This is not a coincidence but rather a relationship close to cause-and-effect.
The truth is that law-abiding black people are disarmed by leftist gun control policies more than law-abiding white people are.
I think the reason why is quite obvious: The gun control policies themselves have racial overtones and many were put into place in large urban areas specifically to restrict the constitutional rights of black people. This is also true with concealed carry laws in “may issue” states where citizens must request permission from local law-enforcement. For example, the reason for the “face to face interview” of the applicant should be obvious even to the naïve.
Uh, no. Unless you are just talking about the financial burden of being able to own a firearm.
Gun control isn’t inherently racist, it just happens to be at this point and time because the majority of black poor communities don’t have the infrastructure or resources to overcome the internal strife and conflict created by rampant black gangs, drugs, and violence that are poisoning their own community.
Unsurprisingly, many law-abiding black citizens that have fled these toxic communities tend flourish because they now have the same opportunities as everyone else.
What simply needs to happen in places like Chicago is the National Guard or military needs to come in and clean house just like we would any other community or culture that is committing genocide. Remove and jail the “black leaders” that are preying on their own community as well as all the criminals and then rebuild.
Gun control is inherently racist…Mulford Act and all of the previous laws that were instituted to 1) reduce the ability of the minority groups of areas ability to protect themselves/have a sense of humanity (self reliance) and 2) play on the majorities fear of armed minorities of those areas. I tried to contact the NRA to sue California’s ban on OC based on descrimination, simply based on the reason why it was even written and signed. That reason was the lawful arming and open carry of The Black Panthers during the 1960’s. I never heard back, I do not have much faith in the NRA.
TTAG has covered many racially integrated open carry marches. But sometimes I’m disappointed at the attitude of some ignorant white gun owner’s comments. I’m glad the racist history of gun control is discussed here. But it seems that talk has not sunk in with some people. Black folks are fighting for the rights that you people in California have already lost. As a black male gun owner I open carry. And there are many black men who do open carry in Kentucky and Tennessee.
Ernest Hancock the black man with an AR15, at the Obama Arizona rally in Aug 2009 is one example. His videos are still on You Tube.
Here is an example of some disappointing comments from gun owners.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/04/robert-farago/open-carrying-rifle-wearing-bullet-resistant-vest-seriously/
Spot on.
+10
The evidence accumulated over the last week or so is mixed. We have a possible case of a black man legally carrying being killed by the police while at the same time we have a black man running around in camo with an AR during an active shooting targeting the police and he lived to tell the tale. It Mr. Castile did not have permit after all the evidence becomes less mixed.
+1. This is some level of evidence that a black man CAN carry openly. Hell, he was doing it during an active shooter situation.
Well, everytime the texas open carry group scheduled an event, the five or six local Shannon Watts devotees showed up to pose for a photo op and a creative camera angle. They never had any problem getting in the face of the Old fat white guys with scary AR-15s while recounting how scared they were to have these guns on the street. Lots of yelling and chanting and histrionics, a regular carnival atmosphere everytime, while journalists took photos and then later described the situation as tense. When the black gun club had their open carry demonstration in Dallas all of the Mom’s Demand Action reps were busy baking cookies that day. The journalist stood well back. Nobody yelled anything, no signs, no chants from dissenters, pretty fucking quiet. Which goes to show you that for the most part nobody is really afraid of the chipotle ninja but a bunch of black men with guns scares the bejebes outa of liberals. I wanted to put on fake boobs and carry a sign down there and protest just to show them some respect and shame Shannon and here folks for being racist, but due to my job couldn’t take the chance of making the papers. I believe that driving while black is a thing, because, when I was young I was regularly pulled over in Highland Park here in the Dallas area for driving while poor thirty years ago. If you or your vehicle don’t look right they will find an excuse to check you out.
+1. Nice! Sometimes it’s good to be a black man! If for no other reason than to keep Shannon Watts at bay!
As a black man living in a suburb just outside Atlanta, this question has consumed me in light of recent events. I’m a law abiding citizen. I own a gun. I’ve always considered carrying as the next logical step. Outside of the (sometimes rampant) bigotry/racism in the comments of this site, I’ve learned an immense amount about gun culture. I’ve also learned the 4 Rules. I’ve also read in these same comments suggested procedures on what to do if/when I’m pulled over by an officer and A) have gun in the car, and/or B) have my weapon concealed on my person (after I’ve acquired my CCW, of course). I don’t know that any amount of training could prepare me for a potentially racist (or scared, or nervous) cop that is only suspicious of me because of my appearance. I do know that I am going to carry. I do know I’m responsible enough to carry. What I don’t know is what my chances are of being gunned down by a peace officer for doing exactly what he says. I also know I need a smaller CC: SD9VE is HUGE. I’m leaning towards an SR9C. Just my thoughts….
The SR9c is a good choice, IMHO. If you haven’t already done so, you might want to check out the instructions on how to disable that magazine safety disconnect. Some of us don’t like to carry with an automatic magazine safety.
Thanks to YouTube, I know my current gun and my (hopefully) next one inside and out, lol! Thanks for the heads up!
Good deal. Stay safe out there. 🙂
I can tell, from first hand experience, that your choices of EDC are based upon cost. I too was enamored with the economical cost of the SD9VE. And though it was not a carry gun, the horrendous trigger did doom it to be traded in for a better choice. Owning several SR9/40c’s, and many other striker fired pistols, that is one fine choice regardless of it’s relatively low cost. The Ruger SR compacts have the smoothest and most predictable triggers out of the box, in my humble opinion. My wife carries the SR40c and daughter the SR9c. I am looking forward to see if the new Ruger Americans share that sweet trigger.
Quick story: So I’ve been ranting about the SR9C for months to my Pops. We go to the LGS (as we do quarterly… maybe) just so he can see what I’m talking about. I’m going on and on about the features and the benefits compared to my SD9 and yadda yadda yadda. Mind you, he’s got this ancient Tangfolio .380 that probably won’t even shoot, and he was mighty impressed with my SD9. This guy buys the Ruger… on the spot… in the configuration that I want (blued/black polymer)… FOR HIMSELF!!! Jerk! Better be glad he’s my best friend, lol!
Now that is funny.
I hate saying this cause I am so far from you and that makes my offer semi-ridiculous, but I am there for you brother. I would happily walk alongside you as you exercise your right and to be honest, if you cant find anyone more local to you, I will still make the trip to stand with you.
And I have to apologize to you as a Man of the Gun; one to another, about racist shit you may find here on these sites. Please let me assure you that they are an infinitesimal percentage and many of us find the comments uncouth and sophomoric as well (no, let’s call them evil as if they are meant with any truth, they degrade our fellow man and that is EVIL.).
Many of us POTG know that anti-gun laws were and are meant to keep minorities in check. But, Free Men are not to be kept in check. Happy to have you as one of us (or us to be one of you).
Thanks for the kind words, man. The comments hardly ever get to me because I know that they come from a place of ignorance and a lack of exposure. But the gun reviews on this site are why I keep coming back. These guys do a great job!
I can’t resist the temptation to quote a well-known saying: concealed means concealed. If you don’t give anyone a good reason to suspect you might be carrying, you will be safer.
I can’t really help you regarding the racial issues; I’m white and I don’t live in the US. However, being a teacher, I do have some experience with carrying in a situation where too many eyes might notice your gun. And my solution is to carry a smaller gun.
I would never be able to realiably conceal a full-size pistol on me, given my build and clothing and profession. I own one and I’ve tried, but although the result is okay from a legal point of view, it doesn’t meet my own definition of concealed. So my advice would be that one of the things you might do to be safer is to review your requirements regarding your gun’s size (and ammo capacity) vs concealability. What you feel is riskier – carrying too small a gun, say Glock 26, or too big a gun, say CZ75?
Concealed means concealed unless it’s a LEO encounter. Then, you have a duty to disclose in most States; or, a potential for the LEO to ask in other States.
The issue is: How to desensitize LEOs to citizen carry regardless of the color of the carrier?
I’m afraid that there’s little that one ordinary person can do to desenzitize the whole police force. My hope was that a well concealed gun would make it more likely that an officer would approach a citizen without prior suspicion of its presence.
My thinking is that there’s often a difference between being approached by an officer who suspects a person is armed but knows nothing about a license, and being approached by an officer who learns about the weapon and license during a conversation. Shooting a suspicious nobody is easier than shooting the Mr. Smith who just said hello to you and handed you his license, if for nothing else then because Mr. Smith didn’t make you extra nervous even before you’ve talked to him.
Then again, it is quite possible that I’m underestimating the racial bias one might encounter in too many police officers.
“How to desensitize LEOs to citizen carry regardless of the color of the carrier?”
Make citizen carry more and more common, regardless of the color of the carrier. Of course, that involves some personal risk, but I don’t think it’s enough to be concerned about.
Not that long ago I spied a young black male entering Wal-Mart. His pants were past his butt crack, his shirt was disheveled, and his openly carried M&P9 saddled in a $5 nylon holster slung freely about his loose belt. I walked up to him and said “I celebrate your desire to exercise your 2nd Amendment rights, however may I suggest that you do so with dignity and pull up your pants, tuck in your shirt, tighten your belt, and for God’s sake please get a proper holster.” He looked up and down himself and replied “Your right, thank you”. And that is the extent of my bad experiences with black people and the carrying of firearms.
As with most things I think it’s matter of context.
Those NBPP guys with OCed ARs screaming “Pigs in a blanket, fry ’em like bacon” didn’t get shot for doing that and it was right in front of a cop shop.
Black guy, legally carrying concealed, dark of night in a bad neighborhood? That’s a whole other kettle of fish and the Black guy should be extra cautious in dealing with the cops. I would recommend OC at that point as police know what I know: criminals generally don’t OC.
However the universal truth remains, for the most part, if you’re not doing gangster shit you won’t end up dealing with the cops.
Gangstas spend much time running around the country at 90? ‘Cuz that seems to earn me interaction from time to time.
Yes, and I do not think this will be normalized until more black people use firearms to defend themselves rather than to commit violent crimes. There is no good solution to this problem. Like most problems that have tinges of race and racist history – but that are not directly, on-purpose discriminatory – solutions are complicated, and generally will only happen from the bottom up. People do not achieve equality as a gift from above, but by claiming it individually every day (at least in situations where the laws themselves are not the basis for discrimination).
The only people who will ultimately resolve urban violence will be the people who have to live with it daily. Sadly, because of a history of racist gun control policies dating back into the 19th century, there is not a strong, nationwide culture of gun ownership for defense in the black community.
According to some historians, this was not always so – most black homes in the rural south had some kind of weapon for defense in the bad old days, but as people moved to the cities, the legacy of ownership as an act of self-reliance slowly leaked away. After all, cities are civilized. Cities have police. Who needs a gun?
The answer, of course, is that we all do. Defending one’s home, family, and self is a human right, not one defined by nor limited by one’s skin tone. Sadly, the people who need firearms the most because they are significantly at risk daily of violent crimes are not asking (at least widely) what can they THEMSELVES do to help this. The answer may partly – but only partly – be better, color blind policing, but that will only keep the next crime from happening if they can find the perp and get him in jail. It does very little to prevent the crime in the first place. That’s on every one of us, as citizens.
As a black man that carries a firearm (concealed) everyday I can honestly say that I have never had any bad experiences with police or anyone else because of it. But I’m keeping my fingers crossed especially in light of recent incidents.
Let’s see:
The Black community celebrates thug life, drugs, guns, and gang mentality behavior. Couple that with poverty and black on black crime, there is a large percentage of blacks with violent criminal records. And because of the double standard of racism fostered by the NAACP and the media, black people are currently allowed to be racist while the rest of society can’t. Yeah, ok.
The Muslim community is at odds with their own religion calling for the death of infidels (aka anyone that doesn’t share their beliefs) as well as always claiming extremism and terrorists aren’t rooted in Islam. Ok, good luck with that because it seems 100% of all terrorists DO believe what they are doing is for Islam, regardless of what peaceful Muslims say. So…maybe, just maybe, the Islamic leaders need to put some research and thought into their religion and think about examining the parts that fuel extremist behavior, yes? Just connect the dots to the passages the terrorists quote and if they can be found in the Quran, there’s your problem!
The White community celebrates drugs, guns, as well, but the thought of prison tends to dissuade the majority from being a danger to others.
The Asian community doesn’t give a crap about the rest of the cultures because they love their culture and their parents beat the stupidity out of them at a young age.
Was that a non-PC enough response?
Is it more dangerous for a black man to carry than a white man?
The answer tends to get a bit muddied by the perception of the black people who generally DO carry. IF more black folks who were not of questionable character were more commonly carrying openly, then the perception would change. It’s kind of the same perception problem ALL open carry has though. You get the “Chipotle” stereotype for being an open carrier and white. You get the “Tupac” stereotype for being black with an open carried rifle. Neither stereotype is right, and while they SHOULD be treated the same, perceptions are difficult to shake.
Of course this video makes a lot of false assumptions. Tamir Rice had an airsoft pistol with the orange tip removed, and was POINTING IT AT PEOPLE. He was shot when he pointed it at officers.
John Crawford was MURDERED by an anti-gun activist who used the police at a weapon. I still believe that the officers reacted too quickly on that one. But it was the people who were scared of guns that caused that situation to get way out of control way fast.
Then there’s the deep seated mistrust of cops that the black community has. Some of it IS based in fact. But they prefer to mete out justice among their own community rather than waiting for the police and the justice system to do it. And worse, if they let the justice system work, there could be retaliation from those that they are affiliated with.
Yes and the Democrats made it so
Yes it is and thats bad and all must worked together to normalized open carry 4 all ethics !
Overall yes, but it depends on the individual. The main reason I say yes is because the majority of black people in the USA live in the inner city where there is more violent crime. Put a black person in rural Arizona open carrying and they are in just as much danger as a white person or a hispanic.
Rhetorical?
I hope it’s not a surprise to anyone that EVERYTHING is either more negative or less beneficial for black people in this country.
Bull. Tel that to Charles Payne, for example, he went from a ghetto to worth hundreds of millions by following the rules, playing fair, and working really, really hard. Or consider Daniel “Chappie” James, a sharecropper’s son who stepped forward to be a military pilot during WWII and rose to the rank of General more than 30 years ago. Anybody in America has the opportunity to succeed, regardless of color.
Yes, it is.
Frankly a black man with a gun is more likely to be shot by the police than I as a white man. It’s just true.
Says who? Care to provide some evidence?
Actually, studies show that cops (especially non-black cops, IIRC) tend to hesitate more vs. threatening black suspects, probably because PC and the holy hell they tend to catch after shooting one. Nobody (at the societal level) gives a shit if a cop shoots a white guy.
This may be simultaneously too complex and too obvious for BLM types to comprehend. Won’t put any money in their pockets, either.
I live in Richmond VA. I have seen a lot of black men open carry in public. Some in stores , some in the hood areas , and some in the parks and wooded trails around the city. The cops don’t seem to care. In fact the only police shootings we seem to have is once some one has shot at the cops or has a gun pointed directly at a cop.
I’m not sure of the whole story with the young man reaching for his id with a gun on his hip, I’m not going to judge until more evidence comes out.
The answer is easy for anyone with open eyes and a modicum of intelligence. The solution is not. The solution goes to the root of racism in our country and branches out in more directions than many would be comfortable with.
As a police officer in a big city during the 80’s, we dealt with the bottom 2-3% of society most of our waking hours. When one race only accounts for at most 30% of the population, yet commits 75% of the crimes.. you tend to be much more cautious and even nervous around that race. I’ve never met a cop who denies this. Cops of this race are even more cautious and they tell me it’s because they know the risks even more. I’m not saying anything you haven’t heard before, or already know, so why isn’t this talked about over and over again in the mainstream media? Of course some will become angry, others scared. Scared of what? Facing the real issues.
Issues such as economic and educational disparities not only in our public and governmental communities, but – and I think this even more important – inside our homes. Where parents should be there to guide and help their children, not only with schoolwork.. but life. Parents must first put the priority and effort into their children’s education and social upbringing, before the child even begins to get on board themselves. We can all pick at least 1-2 minority races where the parents are heavily involved and subsequently their children do very well academically. So well in fact they must cut HIGHER scores to get into certain universities, not lower scores.
None of this is rocket science of even a secret. We all know it, but no one is willing to take personal responsibility for their actions. Everyone is afraid of the truth. Worse, some take advantage of the truth to further badmouth and socially segregate poor performing minorities creating an endless spiral of failure almost impossible for the average child to break free from.
And the very worst imo are those who use these conditions to further their personal agendas.. such as gun control. Face it, guns in homes where people aren’t educated in the safe and responsible handling of firearms, indeed results in gun owners more likely to be killed than saved by their gun. Statistically. It’s almost like the gun control crowd wants it to be this way so they can throw this number in the general publics face. What they don’t say, is those with training and who are responsible, become far more likely to be saved than hurt/killed by the guns they own. Taking away guns ‘could’ be part of the answer, if you’re strictly speaking of the homes with no gun training. But infringing on a constitutional right from such a weak perspective is just plain wrong. Especially when you’re ignoring the far larger problems that would not only greatly solve the gun violence problems, but would also go a long way towards equalizing our minorities earning and social status.
We’ve got a lot of work to do..
I don’t feel as a white guy that I’m qualified to give an answer to the question and I haven’t seen any solid documentation one way or another. All I can do is guess that in most areas, it probably is more dangerous, but but I think behavior is more of a factor than race. There are new facts coming out of the Minnesota thing that puts a whole other spin on it. There are some rushes to judgement here and some sweeping generalizations as a result.
I can say it means nothing to me. I was walking my dogs a while ago and a landscaping crew was working on a local residence. We live in a diverse, but very peaceful suburban neighborhood. The obvious leader of the crew was a big black man, wearing cammies and wearing an SP101 in a leather holster at 3:00 on his left side. I thought, “nice!” I almost went over to talk guns with him, but it was obvious he was busy.
Survey says…
New studies I came across may indicate it is not really any more dangerous for a black to carry than a white – as with all questions of this type, the definition matters too. So, for my purposes, I am using the definition of dangerous to mean: more likely to be shot by cops.
Read and decide:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/07/11/new-study-claims-to-reveal-whether-police-are-more-likely-to-shoot-black-or-white-suspects/#comment-11704100
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/
Also, notice that in the second link at WaPo, of the 990 killed by police, 730 of them were attacking police when killed. Frankly, race is immaterial and I think those should be excluded in their entirety. If you are attacking police, race doesn’t matter – the po po are shooting you.
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