Police violence
Police officers run toward protesters near the district attorney's office in Salt Lake City on Thursday, July 9, 2020. Two police officers in Utah were cleared earlier Thursday in the death of Bernardo Palacios-Carbajal, an armed man shot at more than 30 times as he ran from police, a decision that prompted his grieving family to heighten their calls for systematic changes to law enforcement. (AP Photo/Rick Bowmer)
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Police now face the knowledge that their superiors and the politicians to whom they answer will sacrifice them without a second thought if it meets the approval of the woke mob and the political leaders and media figures who amplify its demands. Take over an entire neighborhood in downtown Seattle, including a police station? No problem, says the city’s mayor—it will be a summer of love! That didn’t turn out to be the case.

Too many still believe that the police are at the root of what troubles America’s cities, but reality has a way of reasserting itself—often cruelly. In New York City, where the city council has voted to cut $1 billion from the NYPD’s budget, weekly shooting incidents in mid-June increased by 358 percent over the same period in 2019. In Chicago, homicides are up 34 percent so far this year compared to last year, and nine children have been killed since June 20.

This wave of violence hasn’t aroused even a fraction of the outrage that attended the deaths of Floyd and Brooks, a fact not lost on the nation’s cops. I spent the latter half of my 30-year LAPD career as a supervisor, encouraging officers to extend themselves in the effort to reduce crime. Given the present political climate, if I were still in that position, I couldn’t offer that same encouragement in good faith.

America’s police have gotten the message: they’re the problem. And they’re responding accordingly. How many more lives will be lost before the country sees through this lie?

– Jack Dunphy in Demoralizing the Police

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  1. Personally, I am warming up to defunding police departments and replacing it with the Sheriff Department System of LE. In the “police system” the Chief of Police is handpicked by the (elected) Major and answers to a (gutless, self-absorbed, retarded, corrupt, ignorant, afraid, bribed) politician. In the “sheriff system” the Sheriff is ELECTED by the citizens and answers to the public (A.K.A. “We The People)

    From Wikipedia: ‘The concept of preventive policing, or policing to deter crime from taking place, gained influence in the late 18th century. Police Magistrate John Fielding, head of the Bow Street Runners, argued that “…it is much better to prevent even one man from being a rogue than apprehending and bringing forty to justice.”[77]

    “It is better to prevent crimes than to punish them” (eg. Guliani’s “stop and frisk”). This is the chief aim of every good system of legislation, which is the art of leading men to the greatest possible happiness or to the least possible misery, according to calculation of all the goods and evils of life.”

    Under some politicians (like DiBlasio), there is NO prevention (no stop and frisk) and there is NO punishment (bail for all and dropping all charges for rioters).

    • Manny,

      I like the idea of Sherriffs rather than local PDs. It is really a shift in funding, not really de-funding.

      • That would also be a shift in focus.

        The linked article states “A compact exists between the officer and the government that he serves.” Originally that compact was with the CITIZENS the police served. They stopped being peace officers and became law enforcement officers.

        Changing back to law enforcement directly elected by the citizens could shift that focus back to serving the people.

        Of course in PA, unlike in the rest of the US, our Sheriffs are merely officers of the court, without statutory powers of arrest. We would need to change our model to match that to match the rest of the country.

        Or maybe we wouldn’t. I’d have to about the idea of not having anyone with statutory powers of arrest and police powers. I’d have to think about that for a while. It might actually work out better for liberty than merely shifting from city cops with an appointed boss to county cops with an elected boss.

        • Move street level crime enforcement from one elected executive officer (mayor) to an other (sheriff). Take a cop out of a blue police uniform, put him in a green sheriff’s uniform, and call him a deputy….. There we go! We slapped a fresh coat of paint on the same problems! Now everything’s going to be better, right?….. Right?!

          If you live in an incorporated city, this is a horrible idea. The cities across a county all have different policing needs and if policing is outsourced to the counties, then cities will have less control over the conduct of those officers and the scope of their duties/responsibilities via the elected mayor. I live in a city in an East San Francisco Bay Area county. A lot of the cities in my county are either liberal elite rich suburbs or ghetto slum cities. My city mayor has won election for decades on the platform that he won’t let our city turn in to either. When criminals from other cities come in and commit crimes and get shot by either the cops or citizenry, he backs our people and our police force responds in kind. I can’t say the same for our Sheriff.

        • The Crimson Pirate:

          Hey, fellow PA guy 🙂

          I’m an attorney here, and happy to let you know that all sheriffs, and their deputies, have full arrest powers throughout the Commonwealth just like police. They can even pull you over and cite you for traffic offenses…there have been a few cases litigated about it over the years and their powers are very robust here. Constables, on the other hand, not so much….

        • Delaware had that nonsense with the sherrif being toothless as well but I guess the governor didn’t want any challenges to his authority from the rural 2/3rds of the state.

      • Looking to the Constitution,the two forms of law enforcement authorized by it are sheriff and marshal service. Perhaps it’s time to return to a constitutional form of government other than using it was a doormat.

      • Manny and LifeSavor,

        Your ideas are logical in most of the country.

        Here in Cook (Crook) county IL, (Chicago and suburbs) the “sheriff” is an elected part of the political machine. Deputies and other staff have to have political clout just to get the job.

        Bottom line……….. the system that promotes incompetence and lawlessness is alive and well. Elected sheriffs are a great idea in areas that already have some respect for law and order. In the urban cesspools, not so much. 🙁

    • I like the idea of changing the Police to a Sheriff model, particularly making the head of the Department an Elected Official independent of the local Mayoralty and answerable to the public that elected that person to that office. This could be done on a City-by-City basis, but funding might be complicated.

    • Unfortunately, that is not how it works. The Sheriff still follows political orders from county executives to those in state legislative positions. If they don’t follow their orders, they will start the rumors and find a new person to run against, swaying their political party to choose and get the new person elected. Be it the sheriff or chief, there are higher powers influencing (giving them orders).

      • A O,

        Maybe. But dozens of County Sherrifs across the country are defying their state governments and declaring their counties to be 2A sanctuaries. Others are refusing to enforce unconstitutional mask orders and assembly restrictions. There seems to be sufficient legal cover for Sheriffs to uphold the Constitution even if legislative and executive officers will not.

    • You mean leave up the kind of people that elected Lori Lightfoot and Kim “Crimesha” Foxx? How is that going to change things? People who think like you are childishly naive.

        • Because it is childishly naive to believe that just because you elect the Sheriff that mean get quality law enforcement. Back in the days of Jim Crow many of those elected sheriffs had a sheet and a hood in closet. They were always amazed how imaginative those coloreds were in commiting suicide. All electing the Chief Law Enforcrment officer means is that you the Sheriff that the community wants.

        • TDIINVA,

          You have explained your argument, not the need for an insult.

          No solution will be simple, and, likely, one size will not fit all. You make good points but insults inhibit listening, even for the speaker.

        • Do you object to the adjective “childish” or that it is naive to believe an elective sheriff would give you better law enforcement? If the forme I withdraw the adjective.

    • That’s not what this new leftist movement is about though.

      It’s about replacing the police, with a new hyper politicized left wing enforcement arm, with federal reach, federal authority, federal funding, and total control and surveillance over all manner of media. Their primary target, will be us.

  2. I really think these Democratic funded major cities are going broke and they have to make up their losses somewhere and I don’t think it’s going to get any better anytime soon and crime will get much much worse. Trump has taken there go to cookie jars away.

    • NYC is in the same financial shape it was during the 1970’s;……ALMOST BANKRUPT.

      Your thoughts are actually spot-on.

    • And I think one big outcome of the lockdown is the realization and recognition that a lot of people can work from home. Not everyone of course, probably less than 20%, but that’s enough to devastate expensive big cities like NYC. Big changes are coming.

      • I am working for company providing tech support for a state government transport agency. About 90% of the employees are working from home, except for frontline people such as drivers, station staff, and maintenance.

        Our managers think less people working in offices means less issues. WRONG. Still just as many issues but they are a different type. And my team which covers 20 sites is about to be cut by two-thirds with increased coverage area. And they think this won’t affect SLA compliance. That must have been one heck of a cranial rectal inversion.

  3. Why should we care if these Democrat controlled hellscapes defund their police? Let them. Maybe then those people will learn and stop voting in these idiots constantly. They should absolutely be forced to live with their BS and bad decisions. Not my problem and never will be.

    • Because people will move out of the cities and bring crime with them. If you don’t leave “the lifestyle” behind you won’t leave the violence and crime behind either.

      • That’s a lie you lying liar!! Dare I say you are dog faced pony soldier! California has gifted some of our most talented and intelligent citizens to our sister states in an effort to improve the lives of those less fortunate than ourselves. We have brought the bright shining light of Californian enlightenment to places like Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Florida, and Virginia. Once despotic (R)ed states run by fascist right wing extremists, we have exported liberation and the freedom from fear, hatred, and the scourge of gun violence. Soon we will liberate Texas and all of America will know our kindness and mercy…. so, in summary: you’re welcome.

        Eric Swalwell 2020

      • Amen. My father once told me:

        “You can take a person out of the ghetto, but you can’t take the ghetto out of a person. Only that person can take the ghetto out of themselves”.

      • They’ll never move out as far as I am. Not that there’s not rural crime, there is the odd meth head looking for something to steal, but they are few and far between, and there is a high level of awareness of the risk involved in going where you shouldn’t. People out here shoot first and ask questions later, and a “shoot, shovel, shut up” philosophy prevails. I have a sign up that says “STOP! If We Are Not Expecting You, Proceed At Own Risk” and people take it to heart. No threat, just letting them know that they very much are taking a risk by trespassing. The threat is implied.

    • Because those people will demand order and the left will impose that order on all of us, whether we need or want it or not.

  4. “Demonizing and Defunding Law Enforcement Won’t Help Reduce the Spike in Violent Crime”
    Everyone knows that, come on TTAG, you can do better.

    • Anybody with half a brain knows that the fundamental problem with Black America is young black men without fathers approaching a rate of 80%.

      If you want to shut up a Leftist spouting BLM talking points just bring up that topic.

      • And if black lives really mattered to us, then we might actually listen.

        Eric Swalwell 2020

      • I’m pretty sure they’ll just call you a racist for bringing that up. Indoctrinated leftists are trained to ignore any logic that defies their worldview.

      • Thanks to LBJ’s ‘Great Society’ we funneled trillions of $$ to the inner cities. Government actually caused the sky high rate of illegitimate children by paying single mothers more in welfare benefits and rewarding them for having more children. That’s why I always laugh about Reparations. It not really funny that people actually take the proposals seriously, but I don’t think many really realize the amount of $$ the government has funneled to the black community since the welfare state started in the 1960’s. Unfortunately all it did was make the conditions in the black community worse.

        • ” amount of $$ the government has funneled to the black community ”

          A lot of money, yes, but it’s highly doubtful it ever made it to the community. Most of it went to fund NGOs and the ridiculous executive salaries and bloated bureaucracies that travel with them, tons of useless programs that didn’t work and most likely were never intended to, and an endless avalanche of studies that no one ever read. The whole thing was just one massive jobs program and money-laundering operation.

          Race is a billion-dollar industry in this country.

  5. Defunding the police does not have mean abolishing the police. It more accurately translates to demilitarizing the police which is something every gun owner should favor. They should not have MRAPs to shutdown small protests against the Covid lockdown like they did in Odessa, Texas. Fun fact: the police will be quicker to serve a red flag warrant on an average gun owner than they will be to putdown an antifa uprising. If they spent less time enforcing bs victimless crimes they would have plenty of time and resources to focus on real crimes. But I guess window tint violations and food cart vendor license violations generate more revenue and boost department productivity numbers.

    • No, defunding doesn’t mean demilitarizing, at least not to the people pursuing it. It means, police are replaced by social workers, if anything.

    • So, you want a police force armed and limited to the point where they are only effective as a civil, minor crimes enforcement unit, but you don’t want them to enforce infractions? Rather, you want the police to fight Antifa, who show up in numbers, with weapons and armor, while neutering (demilitarizing) the police? I don’t follow your logic.

    • S Crock you really haven’t been paying attention then if you believe that’s what this is all about. I think you are letting your personal desires cloud reality.

      The left has made it very clear what they want, and it’s not a mere cutting of funding for military gear.

      • @california richard, have you heard the phrase “if you give someone a hammer everything looks like a nail to them?” Yes I think demilitarizing the police is a good thing. A lot of these protests wouldn’t have escalated into riots if legitimate protestors weren’t confronted with a standing army. Put aside any of the current events, government entities at all levels are wasteful. Make them penny pinch so they don’t frivolously throw away our tax payer dollars.

        @Ron, I recognize that the current push isn’t to stop enforcing gun control and red flag raids. I know the lefts push is to have more of a social worker response as opposed to a police response. I just don’t really care to defend these police departments that are overwhelmingly some of the most anti gun departments in the most anti gun liberal cities.

        • ” A lot of these protests wouldn’t have escalated into riots if legitimate protestors ”

          Much more likely the protests would not have escalated if the protestors were actually legitimate and not on someone’s payroll.

    • I agree. The libertarian in me realizes that there needs to be police reform. Especially when it comes to constitutional issues. Like Pro2@/2nd amendment…

    • No!!! If they meant “demilitarize” then they would have used that term. Defund has a very plain meaning. You are either a marxist liar (redundant, I know) or what Stalin called a useful idiot.

      • Or… I said “defunding the police does not have to mean abolishing the police.” *Earlier typo I left out the word “to” but the message was the same.

        You can be for demilitarizing the current standing army without supporting the lefts agenda to completely abolish the police. Don’t get suckered into the view that you are a marxist if you are tired of seeing police in full battle rattle use increasing levels of violence on regular citizens with little regard for their safety. And for the love of God stop immediately thinking these comments are exclusively about events in the last few months. Police have been morphing into a standing army with an us vs them mentality for decades.

        • I support the demilitarization of the police. I also know what “defund” means. It’s obvious, and different.

          I’ve listened to them talk, and if there’s any coherent message it’s that they want to replace “some” police officers with social justice workers who will handle nonviolent situations, and to invest more in housing, social programs, etc to reduce violence. If that’s what the people of a particular city wants then I’m not going to stop them. I will laugh, though I shouldn’t, when the first few non-binary conflict resolution specialists are killed responding to “non violent” domestic calls.

          But let’s be honest about this. Marxists always lie. Defund the police really means exactly that. The marxists want to substitute their own security forces that are loyal only to them, not the constitution. The gulags…oops…I mean the re-education camps come next. Then the famines.

          But these marxists are morons, skipping over the critical first step of any revolution: disarm the populace. So far, all the violence has been from the left. The right appears to still believe that we can still fix this through the ballot box. If the right decides to resort to the cartridge box then all bets are off.

    • The first things they’ll cut out of their budget , will be any social type programs , Police ,athletic leagues, crime prevention officers ,who meet with neighborhood groups, recruitment officers , that works with interested youth, in explorer type programs . Next any proactive programs , the focus will be strictly enforcement in a reactive form .

  6. So the past 20+ years of 2am door busting, dog shooting, confiscation (stealing), and military LARPing are coming home to roost. Add on top of that treating the law-abiding middle class as a piggy bank for their outrageous pensions.

    So between the Leftists, Criminals, and LEO’s I say “A pox on all your houses”.

    • Those pensions aren’t outrageous when you consider that they come after a career of working odd shifts, overnight shifts weekends and holidays, interacting with and touching drug addicts and criminals and homeless people weekly, domestic violence calls, and being a target for wearing a uniform.

      I work hard. 40 hour weeks don’t exist, I’ve worked plenty of weekends and overnights, I’ve worked 48 hours straight running on caffeine to track down and fix critical bugs. The difference is, I can get burned out and choose to stop doing much extra for a little while. I can be with my family on every holiday. I can generally make plans that align to what most American perceive as normal — 5 work days and Saturday-Sunday off.
      When a police department on the other hand has a policy that states 5 days on, 2, days off, 5 nights on, 2 days off, no regular weekend off more frequently than once every couple of months…That’s hard. Constantly switching between day and night shifts murders your metabolism, working most holidays and weekends means someone else bringing your kid to little league most weeks and the extended family, sans you, giving your kid his Christmas presents.

      That pension is well-earned in my opinion.

    • It is a very broad problem and the police are part of it. Unfortunately most here on TTAG do not want to admit that. Pretty much no other country on earth has the police force and prison population that US has. It’s not because we are more violent as many people I talk to agree: For a “free” nation we certainly seem to have enough laws. Unfortunately most here equate freedom with safety and usually they are the exact opposite.

      My all time favorite is: Listening to grown men turn into scared kids when they might have to actually defend themselves and not rely on the police. Its simply pathetic. Yes I am talking about a lot of you on here. Why do you even own guns if you are unwilling to use them? The Police are not there to protect you, that is your job, even the courts have reaffirmed that.

      • Go ahead and defund the police. This way I can shoot criminals dead. When they rob, rape, steal, murder, break into private property, or vandalize other people’s stuff.
        Let the bodies lay where they dropped. For one week. This will remind other criminals to keep their hands to themselves.

  7. Walked by a couple of bicycle cops at the park, this morning. Thanked them for their service to Allentown. Big smiles. They said thank you.

    Are there problems with policing in the USA? Of course. Serious problems? It cannot be denied. Can these problems be fixed? Yes, but it will be difficult and contentious.

    Is replacing the police with social workers a viable solution? Maybe, until social worker are injured, wounded, and killed on the job. Is cutting police budgets a viable solution? Maybe. Fewer police with less training and less-than-adequate equipment might be able to do a better job, but it does seem counter-intuitive. Will screaming at police, throwing rocks, bottles, and molotov cocktails at them motivate them to care deeply about the community? That would not work for me.

    Will good people want to be police when politicians demonize them, undermine them, and sacrifice them to the mob, rather than insisting on due process? Seems unlikely.

    Can police reform happen without the full, enthusiastic cooperation of police unions? Probably not.

    We need to pull together, not fractionalize, not rely on mobs and terrorism, not close ranks to hide misdeeds.

    BLM and Antifa have no interest in dialogue or reform. They want war. They want to rule. They will only make the situation worse. Everyone loses.

    As the rest of us unite, we will win. Reform will be slow, but possible through dialogue and unity.

    • Pay no attention to this racist, people! Move along! There’s nothing to see here! Listen to nothing he says! You need to stay angry and remember that the systemically racist system of racism and its fascist bible reading gun clinging phalo-centric homophobic misogynists wants to put you back in chains!

      Eric Swalwell 2020

    • Correct. This movement isn’t about reform. It’s only being conducted under the guise of reform. It’s much easier to create an army of useful idiots that way.

      • Dude,

        There is more behind your “army of useful idiots” comment than is apparent. We are talking cannon fodder.

  8. Since 1982, the “courts” have ruled that public officials have official “immunity”, protecting them from lawsuits by those that they (are supposed to) “serve”.–us–the public.

    Official “immunity” is a throwback to the idea that “the king can do no wrong” and has no place in any modern society

    With each successive “clawback” on the ability to assign responsibility and to obtain redress for misbehavior by our elected officials, and other “public servants” such as police officers, it has become almost impossible to prevail in lawsuits, even when there is incontrovertible proof of wrongdoing.

    Even with body cams and the proliferation of cell phone videos, almost every example of wrongdoing by public officials goes unpunished and uncorrected. This encourages the “bad apples” to act with impunity, knowing that they will never be punished for their actions.

    If there are awards for misconduct by public officials, they never come from the individuals themselves, but are paid out from municipal coffers. Responsibility for wrongdoing is removed from the individuals themselves and “swept under the rug” by payouts to those aggrieved from municipalities.

    Much of today’s angst directed against police officers is precisely the result of them being insulated from being responsible for the consequences of their actions.

    There is one solution to help reduce incidents of wrongdoing and abuse by public officials—the abolition of official immunity. This one change would put the public official on the same legal footing as us–those who they are (supposed to be) “serving”.

    In place of official “immunity”, all “public servants” would be required to purchase professional liability insurance, not unlike what doctors and other professionals purchase. The basic premium for such a policy would be paid for by the municipality, where surcharges (due to payouts) would be borne by the individuals themselves. Any “public servant” who became “uninsurable” due to official misconduct would be out of a job—no exceptions.

    You can bet that insurance companies would be more diligent in “weeding out” the “bad apples”, as payouts would affect their “bottom line”.

    “Official immunity” is a concept that should be assigned to the “dustbin of history”. Personal responsibility for one’s actions must be restored.

    • Personal responsibility……does that include for holocaust deniers such as yourself?

      A holocaust denier is like a flat earther. Once you know this about them nothing else they say can be taken as valid.

      • Going on about the holocaust is no different than going on about slavery.

        You got your country in Palestine and your museum in Washington DC and the Germans must make eternal obeisance to you for it. STFU and move on.

        • Denying a well documented event shows that your mindset is one that is not to be trusted in any discussion on any subject.

        • The holocaust actually is a fare worse crime then slavery. Exponentially so. Industrialized genocide really has no comparison.

          Slavery, for as bad as it is, has existed since the dawn of time and continues to exist today. Slavery is repugnant, even evil, but even chattel slavery doesn’t seek to obliterate entire races of people. Slaves in any era are an economic investment.

          For all this modern hoopla about slavery and racism, I find it quite ironic and amusing. Because right now, every single American, white black, native, Mexican, man or woman, all of us today are the economic beneficiaries of Chinese slavery.

          Not that I agree with it, but it’s true.

  9. You people are crazy. The police have already been defunded severely as far back as 92 maybe even more. City burns, streets turn into gang war zones, business owners left all on their own, cops can’t even be bothered to answer 911 calls. Oh wait. This only happens when you’re a productive member of society that pays their taxes.
    Go to the burned out remains of your livelihood and stand their holding your head in disbelief? Get taken in because you’re an easy target for the guy that needs to do SOMETHING. Use a gun to fend off a mob of violent assholes trespassing and threatening to kill you and steal your stuff? Get your gun stol… I mean confiscated. For your own good of course. All that money and fun toys disappear when the mob that hates cops show up. But if you dare to be a good citizen then you get the boot stomped on you by your gods in blue as they come riding in on their MRAPS. As you catch a baton round to the gut your wife and child are getting blasted in the face. You’re daughter living away? Getting raped and beaten for hours after she called the police multiple times crying for help. Someone who was close to you like an angry husband kidnaps your kids? Better wait until the guy shows up shooting at a police station along with a trunk full of dead kids. In a club enjoying the night when a shooter starts blasting? Better go hide and keep your fart clenched for 3 hours so you don’t get found.

  10. This is really about money. The cities can’t afford all of the pensions for police and other ccty employees. The whole “bad cop” thing is a fig leaf to cover how bankrupt these cities are. If the Dems get in, they will introduce legislation that will allow cities to annex their suburbs. This will allow them to draw on a larger and richer tax base, and force these suburbs to create multi-family housing. The cancer of crime will spread.

    Get out of the cities and suburbs.

    • Now you want to go and take police pensions? Cities have misused and misappropriated pension funds, and now they want to change the agreement. Those pension funds were paid into by the police, firefighters , city workers etc… they would be flush with money if not mismanaged. Notice that these funding issues only happen in democratic run metro areas.

      In many states the pension systems for State, Sheriff and Police are flush with cash because they were formed with agreements and managed with the State, not Counties or local Municipalities. Some states have better plans (calif) and some not so good. The key is to have laws in place that prevents state government from dipping into the pension plans and putting a worthless I.O.U.

      • ” The key is to have laws in place that prevents state government from dipping into the pension plans and putting a worthless I.O.U. ”

        Well, you already lost that one. In the wake of the 2008 crash, regulations were put in place to prevent Wall Street from using pension fund money to gamble on derivative securities. The practice was a huge contributor to crash.

        It didn’t get much press coverage, but a week or two ago the Fed reversed itself on that, and Wall Street is back at the casino with a pocket full of pension fund cash. I think the results will be fairly predictable.

  11. I think the pro2@ community should jump on the police reform train. After hearing from a friend of my who is a veteran, an ex marine. Who was recently “harassed” by young townie Law Enforcement. Minor traffic stop that lead to a “inspection of personal belongings for so called contraband…” The marine was singled out because of a newly purchased motor vehicle, an ammo can used for art supplies and marine corp tattoos…I think the police reform issue is real and the pro2a community should realize this after all the constitutional Infringements caused by concern types of active law enforcement. Some with personal axes to grind or political…I think when police engage in constitutional violations, harassment, etc…Defunding, fines, compensatory dispensation, etc…For these type of hostile actions should be utilized….

      • Then they do the “I smell marijuana” and use that as an excuse to arrest and search anyway

    • Before I applied for my CCW license, a buddy of mine mentioned maybe don’t bring up prior military service when you do your face to face CCW applicant interview, or if you ever get pulled over (side story: not going to lie, I flashed my military ID one time I was pulled over for speeding, the trooper let me go and thanked me for my service). My buddy claimed this because there are some LE that have this view most veterans possibly have PTSD and could be a potential threat. He sited only one real life example. I personally don’t stress it, ain’t got time for that.

  12. The Seattle McMayor has a recall petition going against her now, let’s hope she gets ousted. Same for the entire city council, for passing a 50% cut in funding for the SPD.

    Let’s hope the silent majority steps up and sends them all packing.

    • Sorry Hankus, she was elected by a “majority” of “tax payers” (?). They won’t remove her as that would be an admission of poor judgement. Speaking of tax payers, those who pay for government services should be the only ones allowed to vote. (look up the constitution’s phrase (about indians and voting) WHO PAY NO TAXES. No free rides. Remember at that time only tax paying land owners were allowed to vote.

  13. The spike in violent crime and more black lives lost will become known as the Floyd Effect. History should note that the democrats cheered this on for the sole purpose of political gain, and the moralizing “non-partisans” apologized for the mostly peaceful rioters as they took a knee.

    • History will NOT note this.
      Being on the Left means never having to say you’re sorry or wrong.
      Since 99% of the media and academia is on the Left, so they’ll cover for you.

      How many people on the Left apologized for putting the country through a 3-year Russian collusion hoax?

  14. Demonizing and defunding law enforcement is likely to increase violent crime. That’s a benefit. The cesspools we call cities will burn, or otherwise become unlivable. That’s a benefit too. The racial arsonists, communists, anarchists and Democrats (sorry for being repetitive) who support defund will be exposed for what they are. That’s yet another benefit. And maybe cops will learn not to be so arrogant and will stop being bullies, and deadly bullies at that. Win-win-win-win.

    • “The racial arsonists, communists, anarchists and Democrats (sorry for being repetitive) who support defund will be exposed for what they are. ”

      So the 99% of the media that is communist and Democrat will expose their fellow Leftists?

  15. Demonizing and Defunding Law Enforcement Won’t Help Reduce the Spike in Violent Crime? Goes without saying To respond to dirty diaper democRat stupidity gives dirty diaper demcRat stupidity credibility. The message for dirty diaper democRats? stfu you stupid ratbassturds.

  16. Anyone thinking 🤔 that defunding the police 👮 is going to decrease violent crime is deranged next time someone breaks into your house 🏠 call a Democrat and watch what doesn’t happen

  17. Novel Idea. For all the people who want to eliminate the Law Enforcement. Provide a Legal Document which clearly states they are against the use of Law Enforcement. Relinquishing Law Enforcement of any Legal Requirement to provide services of any type. In regards to criminal actions taken against Themselves,Their Property and Anyone Present on Their Property. Keep it on file and add the address to the 911 computer system. In that way If the address shows up on a 911 system call. It can be forwarded to the appropriate Social Services Department for Action.

  18. I find two strains of anti-police rhetoric on TTAG. Both are heavily influenced by faux Libertarian thinking.

    The first strain falls broadly under the belief that there was some golden age of policing back in the distant past. I suspect this view is held by people born after 1970. I have news for you. Today’s police officers are better trained, more professional, more knowledgeable and better behaved than any police officers in American history. I have said this many times, the reason that Warren Court handed down all those decisions on criminal rights was because the police did what they wanted. One of the downsides of these rulings was that with more oversight the officer has less discretion in dealing with minor offenders. Back in the day a cop would take a teenager caught shoplifting home to his parents and let them hand out the punishment. Now he has to book the kid. Along with that discretion, he also could take a repeat offender into the alley and beat the crap out of him to help understand the Commandment thou shalt not steal. You think wild west peace officers were any better? They kicked your door down in the middle of the night without a warrant. There is a reason why Wyatt Earp lived to see the talkies and it wasn’t because he had respect for the criminal’s 4th and 5th Amendment rights.

    Let’s look at where these incidents occur. It’s not the “real” crimes. It’s the petty stuff. At least until recently few people get upset when some gangbanger gets shot during an attempt to arrest him. It’s the petty thief or drunk driver who resists that generates the outrage. Here is where the influence of Faux Libertarian thinking shows up. They don’t like these laws. They believe drunk driving or petty crimes should be legal. That is why they push for the elimination of QI. They know no officer is going risk his future over a drunk or a shoplifter. Hold him liable and you have effectively repealed these laws. The left is not the only political faction that believe in never letting a crisis go to waste. Faux Libertarians know the current unrest, which by the way they support, is a generational opportunity to neuter the police. Six months from now when the public is fed up with criminals ruling the streets that opportunity will be lost.

    There is another subset of this group. The “Citizen (I) can do it better” crowd. You mean like the McMIchaels? No you can’t and most likely you would do it worse if you did it at all.

    The second strain is more disturbing. There are people here who are anti-police because they are playing for the other team except that they are too chicken$h!t to knock over the neighborhood bodega. They are keyboard gangbangers and anarchists who would be lying bleeding out in the street if they moved from GTA to reality.

    For those of you who claim that the police do not stop crime you have to explain why crime has spiked in all the jurisdictions where the police have stood down. If the police don’t stop any crimes, why is there a Ferguson effect?

    In the meantime as of as of 0500 this morning the count in Chicago is 9 KIA and 43 WIA.

  19. If the police stopped wiping their ass with the constitution and murdering innocent people there would be no problem.

    • Dan, do you really believe that police are going out to murder innocent people?… I don’t.

      • If you believe you have a right to drive drunk or under the influence of narcotics, shoplift or pass counterfeit currency then from that perspective the cops are murdering innocent people.

      • Whether they mean to or not, that’s what’s happening. There’s been a pattern of behavior that the public is all too aware of at this point. There’s bootlickers like the jack off below that thinks police have the right to execute people over $20, but most folks don’t agree with that. And that jackass is probably one of the first to scream “muh rights” when some bullshit capacity law is passed, but couldn’t give two squirts of piss about someone else’s fourth and fifth amendment rights are smashed. Breona Taylor was asleep when they murdered her. Duncan Lemp was ambushed in the dark, but they at least the police had the right address that time.

        • It wasn’t the wrong address. Breonna Taylor was a named party on the warrant because her ex-boyfriend was running drugs out of her house. The police did not exercise the no-knock provision at her house. They announced and her current boyfriend admitted he opened fire first. She was died in the crossfire. You really need to keep up. I bet you believe “hands up, don’t shoot” too.

        • The police changed their official version of their story so many times that I don’t believe anything they say. But it doesn’t matter, because you believe that because Breona may or may not have known someone that may have sold drugs she deserves to die. I’m guessing if someone breaks down your door in the middle of the night you’ll just assume it’s the police and let them go about their business?

        • The cognitive dissonance must be hard for you. Let me repeat, her current boyfriend admits to firing the first shot. His story is he thought it was a home invasion and not the police Why would he think that? Could it be that he knew Ms. Taylor was involved in drug trade in the recent past? And if thought it really wasn’t police then we know police did conduct a no-knock raid.

          You are a posterboy for a keyboard gangbanger. Why don’t you grow a pair and join the the thug life for real?

        • I’ve been shot at plenty, and spent more time than I care for strolling through Riker’s Island in a civilian career-I don’t need to play tough guy on the internet. The cops now say they announced themselves, in whatever iteration of events they have currently released. If the boyfriend wasn’t justified in defending himself he would be in jail but the cops don’t have the evidence to make it stick. If this were an isolated mistake, it would just be a tragic accident. It happens repeatedly in a variety of jurisdictions, and it just gets covered up. Look, I’m not saying all cops are bad-most are good. But there are egregious rights violations that occur on a regular basis that need to be addressed.

        • Dan, you may assist your police by pre-ransacking your house, kill your pets, head butt the door frame several times, handcuff yourself behind your back and lie face down. The police may appreciate your cooperation more if you confess to all charges.

  20. The police reform that needs to happen isnt really even under consideration. The reform that is being talked about is a combination of lawlessness and political hypersensitivity. I do not believe there is systemic racism in this country. There is however systemic disregard for the constitution and dereliction of duty in upholding it. I should be free to defend myself and my family from lawless mobs and other assorted thugs without worrying I will be arrested for it.

  21. “Demonizing and Defunding Law Enforcement Won’t Help Reduce the Spike in Violent Crime”

    That’s an easy one to agree with.

    This is the problem, emotional hot button issues become a fetish, a fashion statement, a popular fad. In this the nature of a problem or problems is soon lost, drowned and shouted out by the popular and over simplified message that is now literally off-topic, confused and the delusion of a half thinking mob mindset.

    There are problems in American policing. There are fixes that make good sense. In places some of those are being pursued. Nowhere does it require disbanding police agencies except in special cases of jurisdictions that are better served by larger agencies around them. Such as small towns turning over policing authority to county authority.

    While the over simplified, exaggerated and now off-topic popular movement has become the loudest noise, the routine good deeds of most police officers and their agencies becomes lost. The kindnesses shown, the courage and self sacrifice displayed, the evil faced up to at risk of life and limb.

    The best response to the mob thought is to maintain your own reaction on-topic. To look honestly at the real issues in American law enforcement, speak well of actual fixes and always acknowledge the good that exists along with the troubles.

    If all we do is react to the mob thought then we become a player in raising that volume. We legitimize that noise with our own shouts being against it just as off-target and topic of the problems in American policing.

    Set aside partisan purity approved narratives, stick to factual issues and tested corrections and demand focus and funding on what is known to work.

    Or just give up, allow the mob thought to guide us all and watch the collective intelligence continue to slide into stupid and civilization damaging violence.

    The choice seems very clear to me.

  22. If the police were abolished we wouldn’t be reading stories about white people going to jail for defending themselves. FUCK the police.

  23. If police to be defunded but our tax dollars not returned, then I think any firearm, ammunition, and training should be 100% tax deductible.

  24. Starting an article with a picture of hostile police forces, running after peaceful protestors, is not a good way to get an argument across. And what is with those shields, trying to be captain america or something?

  25. The sheriff in my county is a cheap, political hack. So is the police chief. We might be better off defunding them, and the prosecutor’s office, and trying vigilante violence. It might not work, but we haven’t much to lose, even in anarchy most people tend to behave themselves so I expect low levels of violence.

  26. when so called ‘law enforcement’ can arbitrarily be ‘judge jury and executioner’ in a lot of cases where deadly force isn’t necessarily the best option (person has some kind of weapon maybe, is far from others, not capable of inflicting immediate harm or killing), then what we need is taking away the ‘qualified immunity’ from the donut guards, switching to a system where a traffic stop doesn’t necessarily result in a person’s death because they did something totally goofy but not harmful to anyone like do a california stop or roll thru an intersection by accident when it was red. We need enforcement of some kind but not the kind where it’s a ‘roll of the dice’ if you are a person of color, whether or not you’ll be on a slab by the end of the day just because you had expired tags or a broken tail light.

    An elderly male in Buffalo, NY had his skull busted because donut guards thought it was a good idea to shove him backwards with enough force that he lost his footing. This in and of itself is an attempted murder for any elderly person unable to regroup and not fall onto their head. The jackboots in Buffalo all decided to protest this by
    quitting their response team but were too chicken shit to resign their jobs. Same went for Pornland Pole Lice bureau who decided to protest when one of their own, got rough with a female wearing PRESS credentials and not doing anything wrong. At least in Pornland, the D.A. decided to at least file ‘symbolic’ charges against the donut guard for being a storm trooping arse hole.

    I have digressed a bit but giving people who in a lot of ways are ‘burnt out’ and ‘hate their jobs’ and or ‘civilians’ a gun and a badge is a recipe for disaster. But honestly, if you have to take out the garbage in this gulag every day, I can see how that would wear on you psychologically. Donut guards need screening time to time to see if they’re substance abusers or worse, too. Years ago in Minneapolis, a couple of donut guards were gang raping a 15 year old and got off even when other cops knew.

    We now live in a world where society is breaking down, last thing we need is psychopathic actors with guns and badges treating ordinary citizens like subhuman
    things that have no meaning. George Floyd’s ‘murder’ (and that is what it was) is just one of thousands, if not tens of thousands of ‘cop on citizen’ killings that in not for cell phone recording of that, it’d been unpunished because MPD was ready to ‘white wash’ it based on their first official statement about it. WRONG ANSWER.

    So, the social worker thing really is a good idea. Also the Sheriff thing is also a good one because my experience with them is that they are usually less likely to brandish a weapon and pistol whip you or kill you for a minor traffic stop or incident.

    We need the donut guards. We do. But we don’t need them to be the ‘White Hand’ of the Untitled Snakes of aMerryCow as Matt Groening called it in a “Life In Hell” episode in the 1984 or so date range.

    one last thought: Years ago I was sitting with a female A.T.F. agent in a bar having a beer next to her. At some length she told me about how abusive her colleagues were of her, and how corrupt they were. Her words; “shoot two cops, you killed one BAD ONE!!!” I said; “that’s not a very good way to find good ones, is it??”

    her answer; “listen, go thru the academy, get a badge and come back here and report to me in 10 years..”

    In a sad way, I think she was right. One of every two are bad. and that is sad, not just sad but a sign that that number may eventually become ‘two of two’ bad, being the good ones truly will leave in droves if they suddenly find there is no merit in working in a department full of corruption and racism.

    10 10, 10 8. I’m outta here.

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