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 Confrontation outside the Bundy Ranch in Nevada (courtesy

I know: this is a gun blog. The militia men who gathered at Cliven Bundy’s ranch to confront the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) have headed home after the BLM returned Mr. Bundy’s “trespass cattle.” But the enmity between Cliven’s supporters and the federal government – which almost disintegrated into a ballistic battle –  continues to simmer. Bundy’s incendiary anti-government rhetoric shows no signs of cooling off. And the New York Times is there! “I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” Bundy told a press conference consisting of one reporter, from the Times. “Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas . . .

‘and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

‘And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do? They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.’

That’s pretty much typical Bundy: start with an important insight into the relationship between government and the governed, personalize it and then add bucketfuls of bitter bile. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: this is not the people’s champion you’re looking for.

Senator Rand Paul –  a man who constantly and lucidly expresses Constitutional concerns about government over-reach – distanced himself from Bundy’s racist remarks. Gregg Abbott, Texas Governor Rick Perry’s heir apparent, also backed away from Bundy. As you’d expect. The question is . . .

What do the militia men say? Will they deploy to the Bundy Ranch now if Uncle Sam comes knocking on Cliven’s door to collect unpaid rent? We certainly know what the left will say. Militia members are white supremacists. Gun owners are racists. It’s a very short step to “anyone with a gun is a domestic terrorist,” the term Senator Harry Reid used to describe Bundy supporters.

I know that this is a complicated case; including the fact Senator Harry Reid’s insider dealing could be the [previously] unseen hand behind the BLM’s actions against Bundy. But character is fate. Bundy’s deeply flawed character could seal the fate for the entire American militia movement – and otherwise uninvolved gun owners as well.

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      • I am taking the below quote from “Marcus” in the comments section on Yahoo. While the quote is overtly political, it can apply to liberty-lovers vs statists as well.

        “This is a perfect example of how the left wins and wins and wins. When someone on the right is stupid or worse, they know how to take full advantage.

        Mr. Bundy has shown himself to be a complete idiot at this point. His run-off-at-the-mouth stupidity has allowed the left to advance their own narrative. “See! any oposition to Obama IS racism!” is what this article practically screams, backed up with a colorful venn diagram (science!) to drive the point home.

        Going forward, it’s going to be tougher to criticize Obama or discuss government overreach or bullying because folks on the right have invested some time in this old fart rancher who was indeed being pushed around and bullied by the gov, even though he was probably legally in the wrong.

        The right has to become a lot more savvy about who they emotionally invest in, and pretty much has to sideline the racists in their own ranks (the left has them too, they manifest themselves differently but I digress….).

        They’ve got to recognize the left’s game: “PLEASE hurt me or someone else! Please be bad….Please do something evil!!! so I can puff up my chest and be a righteous victim! PLEASE!!!!”

        Quit handing them the weapon that they’ll kill you with.”

        • Our government is limited by the Constitution whereas Bundy is not. Stop playing a game where the opponent stacks the deck. What Bundy can say, the government can’t.

          Aww, look… government thinks it’s people! How cute… not.

      • Bundy wasn’t saying nothing about blacks as a class that wasn’t true. Blacks congregate in their local enclaves and figure there’s no way to get out so why try. While men like Allen West and Ben Carson must have had parents or grandparents who decided to leave that sihthole at some point. Each person has to decide for themselves when they’ve had enough abuse. It’s no different than the myriad of liberal fruitcakes who are still waiting to give Hope and Change a chance. Obviously, they aren’t finished with their dose of abuse.

        No, Bundy wasn’t lambasting the blacks as being lazy, he was pointing out how many of them are still stuck in the system of oppression that the globalists and elites manage to stay so comfortably removed from.

        That’s my take on it anyway, at least from what was stated in this article.

        • Yes, but these days even noticing existing facts can earn the brand of “Racist.” I couldn’t give a rat’s turd less what color the Ayatollah Obama’s skin is. I hate him because he’s a Hitler clone (cue Godwin), but that little factoid is lost on his disciples. In their headbone, anybody who doesn’t worship the ground he slithers across is a “racist.”

    • The problem with this scenario is this:

      A lot of people, including myself, will not support a man who is in the right vs one issue when if given any amount of legitimate power himself, would create or perpetuate issues as bad or worse.

      Kind of like… I would not rally to the side of a crack dealer who is being unfairly targeted for IRS audit.

      And associating in any way politically with people who have barbaric and hate-filled views is public opinion suicide.

      For example, could you imagine publicly being seen coming to the aid of and hanging out with a convicted child molester and person who gives interviews saying women would be better off without the right to vote?

      Could you imagine the backlash if everyone knew a man with children was dating Casey Anthony?

      I am not comparing Bundy with the metaphorical example above, but you get my point.

      • Hollywood jumped to the support of a known child molester, and nobody cared.

        Big names back in 2009 rallied to get Roman Polanski released from arrest, and folks still go to see their movies, nobody cared.

        Even though they guy pleaded guilty to seducing a 13 year old, and then fled the country.

        So when Harvey Weinstein talks about how immoral guns are, and how against the NRA he is, I’m often amused by the fact that most folks forgot he was quite alright with child rape.

      • I would come to the aid of all of those straw men you propped up there if their individual rights were being stomped on by government. I guess that’s the difference between statists and Liberty loving people… I don’t have to even like the individual to recognize that they are endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights. Rights for me but not for thee is the real cancer. If one cannot support the rights of those we might perceive as the most vile in our society then what have we? A utopian society where every last individual is 100% moral and in agreement 100% of the time is a pipe dream. Even 50% all the way around is probably unlikely at best.

        • Pretty sure the *pro-slavery* guy is a “rights for me, not for thee” type, and therefore, cancer.

        • Perhaps or perhaps not as his statement reflected a question and not an absolute statement. Still, I defend against government usurpation of rights. Individual *actions* are a domestic criminal matter and not a Liberty matter. Is Bundy an agent of government acting under the authority of government? If not, then his statement doesn’t negatively alter my support in any way.

        • +1, We don’t always get to pick the ground for our battles. The statists attacked Bundy so we have to defend. Otherwise, well: “In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.” – Pastor Martin Niemöller

        • I disagree.

          Because the Bundy situation isn’t just about defending one’s fellow man. It’s about making a statement – intentional or not.

          And while making a statement, much less a political statement, one must choose one’s bedfellows carefully.

          To your “they came for the Jews ..etc etc etc” byte above, a more accurate example would be:

          “They came for the Jews, but I chose to defend a Jew who molested little boys for fun. This was widely publicized and as a result, it was easier for the government to take everyone’s weapons quicker, resulting in the brutalization of more Jews quicker than before.”

          See what I did there?

        • So Bundy is now a racist and a child molester? How many slaves does he own, how many boys has he raped? Do have video and audio? I am sure the New York Times will pay you for it.

        • Your reply was disingenuous and you chose to ignore my point.

          I will no longer discuss this with you.

        • There is a litmus test applied to people you will defend. No child molesters, etc, got it. I don’t think I was making an argument that you had to defend child molesters. That was your example. Sorry if I ran with it. Bundy proved that if you bring guns to a protest, people listen. That what I learned from this issue.

        • If anyone has solid proof that Bundy is keeping slaves on his ranch or anywhere else, I’ll personally gather a posse and lead it to free those slaves. If the man said something or believes something that’s a whole different animal than actually keeping slaves.

        • @John – I hear you. The problem here though isn’t that he’s a bigot and people were trying to help him oppose big .gov. I am all for that – his bigotry doesn’t preclude him from being an American citizen.

          The problem is that he was becoming a rallying cry for those who oppose big government and the man is not nearly smart or clean enough to be an icon like that without damaging the very cause seeking to illuminate his situation and defend him.

      • You may not agree with the man’s philosophies, but what the government did was plain freakin’ wrong. I’m not supporting the man – I’m supporting for the Constitution and rule of law as intended by the founders. There is a HUGE distinction there.

        • Oh definitely – what the government did was completely wrong.

          But you won’t find me hanging out in the middle of nowhere with my MSAR having a standoff with government goods over it, though.

          And with this newest bigot revelation, there is just another reason not to.

        • …I hate to say this….as I am not racist and would not support the observations made in the article … but how do we know he even said this? Is there a video or taped recording of him speaking in a racist manner or behaving in a racist way?

          If you were the government…and you had access to “The New York Lies”…why wouldn’t you insure some disinformation was put into the hopper … just to further divide.. and indict a man who may not be racist at all?

          RJ O’Guillory
          Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

        • @ RJ – Because in the last week or two it has become apparent that Bundy is a semi-intelligible idiot who has been enjoying the fame a little too much so these quotes aren’t exactly surprising at this point.

      • Ruby Ridge guy was a racist. Doesn’t make what the government did to his family right. I guess I’m weird in that I can support someone on one thing, but totally disagree with him on another.

        • I agree with you – but we are talking about personally throwing in with people here.

          Yes, your example is correct – but true to my point, I would not have rallied to Ruby Ridge any more than I would with Bundy.

        • Randy Weaver was/is not a racist, but rather a white separatist. There is a difference, though I’m not here to defend either, just set the record straight.

    • Although not politically correct, I don’t see anything wrong with being critical of todays culture of the project life. Bundy does not think that blacks should be enslaved. That is why he used it in the comparison. “When I drive by a housing project…” is not the same as “When I drive through the suburb and I see black people outside playing ball, grilling out or washing their car or cutting the grass…”. The government housing project is another failed program and shame on you “Conservatives” for not getting the point!

      • Agreed Michael. Pastor C.L. Bryant (a former NAACP chapter president) made many of the same observations in his documentary “Runaway Slave:”

        I guess to this crowd here at TTAG its only racist when a crusty, crotchety old white rancher makes the observations?

        Been following this site for years and I have to say that I found this article and these comments very disappointing.

        • It seems even our liberty loving brothers and sisters are easy to bait with a quote taken out of context. An old man using old verbiage makes a comparison to two types of slavery and the press attempts to crucify him. I am surprised at the positive comments on many of the facebook posts about this, and the diversity of the commenters. It seems we have sank further into the liberal quicksand than I thought.

          I stole this for emphasis.

          “The word “racist” has for a long time been the single most effective fear-word in the leftist and neoconservative arsenal. For decades, they have successfully used it in the political arena to slander traditionalists, shut down debate, and leave opponents running for cover. In the social arena, they have caused even more damage by using it to brainwash impressionable children and young college students, and to teach people to hate their nation, their cultural traditions, and worst of all, themselves.

          What surprisingly remains almost totally undiscussed, even on the hard core traditionalist Right, is the word’s origin. Did it come from a liberal sociologist? A 60’s Marxist college professor? Perhaps a politician in the Democratic Party? No. It turns out that the word was invented by none other than one of the principal architects of the 74-year Soviet nightmare, the founder and first leader of the infamous Red Army, Leon Trotsky.”

    • Please, I do not understand how people defend this man. We just had a meeting in Nevada concerning getting federal land not RETURNED to the state, because it has ALWAYS been federal land but transfered to the state. As a Nevadan, I want to know what that means for our state. This is a big undertaking and needs to be done through legal channels, giving thought to the consequences. You don’t just point your guns and demand it. Bundy is using it as an excuse for getting a free ride.
      No one has a right to put as many cows wherever they want on public lands. This is ignorant and irresponsible. The range needs to be managed or Nevada will become a dust bowl. Look at reality. Does Bundy alone get to do whatever he wants or do people get to build mines wherever they want , be allowed to poison our precious aquifers and pay no fees? Can anyone just drill for natural gas wherever they want ? Can I go turn my horses out on BLM land, let them trample and contaminate the springs and overgraze the range? Do I get free range for my livestock? Do they get to run as many cows as they want in our national forest and feed hay with invasive weeds in it ? Cheet grass, the notorioue driver of wildfires is a non native invasive species introduced to the range by cattle ranchers. Now they are required to feed weed free hay if they are feeding in a national forest so as not to harm the forest. I guess that is tyranny also. Things change because increased populations put increased pressures on public lands. At the same time, as we know more we adjust our practices. This is a conservative principle. There is nothing conservative about allowing anyone to destroy our public lands by refusing to allow them to be managed.

      • …his family have been on the land since 1877…they have legal agreements with both The State of Nevada as well as The Federal Government up until the corrupt government decided to use “environmentalism” as an excuse to start stealing land…that they intend to use to finance the debt…and to sell to foreign governments in order to protect the US Bond Market…and for energy and other projects…that benefit the politicians…not the people….let me ask you something….does it take you very long to get off of your knees when someone comes into the room who is not a corrupt government John…who pays your way?

        What a sad soul you must be…


          • VS the BLM. The law is WHATEVER the BLM SAYS IT IS. Do you think the BLM is going to recommend the judge rule in Bundy’s favor?

            THEY WANT HIS LAND. PERIOD. The BLM makes up a rule in their favor. They tell the judge. He rules in their favor, because THEY GET TO MAKE THE LAW.

            Is this still difficult for you to understand?

          • …honey…you are just uniformed regarding how your government works…for instance…why is it that no one has been to prison for the banking scandals…the savings and loan scandal…why is no one being prosecuted for Fast and Furious… torture…and kidnapping…(oh sorry…Rendition … make me vomit)…who went to prison for killing all those men, women and children at Waco… Ruby Ridge….why do you think 3 buildings were imploded on 911…but a vast number of Americans are not even aware of that…and have believed for over a decade that two buildings fell due to “planes hitting them”? This is the same group of people (like yourself) who believed that the 911 “hijackers” passports just happened to flutter to the ground and end up on the liquid-red-hot pile of steaming debris…in perfect condition….?

            Honey…your government…all three branches of it…are corrupt beyond imagination (for you)…and so you think that…”law”…or ” the courts”…get to define what is right vs. wrong…or Constitutional….but if you think that corrupt groups of very rich people are going to decide the “law” without bias…you have along, hard life ahead of you….with a lot of shattered beliefs….


        • As do all regulatory agencies William. The unconstitutionality of unelected and unaccountable regulators making up whatever rules they want is absolutely mind-boggling. The founders would have been shooting already over such an abusive state of affairs. The law says whatever the regulators want it to and those laws are enforced by their own private standing armies. There is literally no way for the people to hold these bureaucrats or their rules accountable. Supposedly there is a way to change “bad” regulations and they even have a written policy on how to do so to appease “public” scrutiny, but the truth of the matter is that it is near impossible for “the people” to revise or eliminate draconian regulations.

          The Bundy standoff may show a new way to affect regulatory change…only time will tell.

        • Hey RJ… I can sell you that Federal Land for $1.00 an acre – how many thousands do you want???
          Bundy’s Mother bought his ranch in 1947… The 1870’s story was another Sean Hannity scam!!
          Please get your facts!! If Bundy was an African American – they would say he was a freeloader and shoot him dead – and then claim Stand Your Ground!! Why the Hate for our constitution?? Read it!! An armed rebellion against the Government – whether it is run by Reagan, Bush or Obama is called TYRANNY!!

          My Gawd We have so many racist hypocrites… SAD!

          • …sorry Chuck…you are embarrassing well as revealing your troll-roll…we can see it in the slimy trail you are leaving…and you know you are dead wrong about the grazing rights…and the Bundy Family claim to land that is being stolen by corrupt government officials…with an agenda to steal the oil, minerals and well as selling the land to the Chinese…if none of that is true…why are they investigating Senator Ride and his Son? I’ve worked for these criminals…all over the world…and you are simply clue son…simply clueless…and when the traitors in this country are identified…and convicted of treason…they will be hung….I can’t wait…I hope your death is slow and angonizing…so that in the last few minutes of yoru pathetic life…you’ll know what liberty really feels like….citizen juries…treason charges…convictions…and hangings…that I what we need a little more of…not little Chuck’s uninformed opinion…and before you call me a racist…I worked as a DoD as an International Diversity Instructor as well as a Management Development Specialist…so I know business…and I know how corrupt the government is…people like you will only acknowledge that after your Mom and Dad have been taken to the FEMA Camp….what a loser…



            • “and the Bundy Family claim to land that is being stolen by corrupt government officials…with an agenda to steal the oil, minerals and well as selling the land to the Chinese…”

              Which, of course, explains the troll-o-rama.

          • Welcome, troll!! We suddenly have many of your kind. Right here. Trying to divide and conquer.
            You won’t last long here.

      • This is a glaring example of the "tragedy of the commons." The right answer, which will eventually come to light, is to privatize all of it. Auction off parcels, then each owner will take care of their own plot. And no matter how big a parcel some rich individual buys, how could an individual property owner possibly do a worse job of managing it than a fustercluck of Washington DC bureaucrats?

        • “how could an individual property owner possibly do a worse job of managing it than a fustercluck of Washington DC bureaucrats?”

          By building a prison. By building a Formula One track. By building a Zyklon-B factory. Lots of ways, actually, limited only by the imagination.

          Your vision of Glorious Unfettered Capitalism never takes into account the greed and evil that lurks in the hearts of men. Once in a while, they don’t do things that are good for the rest of humanity.

  1. Haven’t they always said that ,”Militia members are white supremacists. Gun owners are racists.” ? Nothing new there.
    Now, try and poke holes in what Cliven is saying.

    • “And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

      So, being beaten, branded, not having any say in your life, having your kids taken from you and sold to others is better? This is beyond ignorant. The sad fact is, the liberals have kept the blacks down by herding them into the inner cities, ensuring that they cannot go to good schools and telling them that racism is holding them back. By keeping them poor and uneducated, the left has tricked them into giving up the freedom that was so hard won in the first place. That doesn’t mean that they were better off when they were considered property and not humans.

      • Holding your statement to the standard by which Bundy was judged… your statement is racist. You infer that a certain ethnic group is too weak and/or ignorant to overcome socialist influence. 😉

      • As a black man, I was with you until your rant on how liberals were holding my people back. It’s too simplistic and relies far too much on conservative propaganda (and, by the way, I’m an independent of is of the opinion that, not only do both sides have a couple of good ideas that are good for the country, their extreme views suck in more ways than one). This is far more complicated. And Bundy isn’t worth my time r energy – which is why I’ve only invested in three sound bites, at the most, since that foolishness started.

        • I am truly interested to know what you think is the cause for the decline of the inner city subculture then. If it isn’t liberal policies that are holding people back in the inner cities, then what is? And more importantly, what is the solution to it?

        • Fine, than as a Yellow Man, I contend that it is Modern or Neo-Liberalism that is holding minorities and the poor back, not Classical Liberalism. Once you understand the differences, throw the term Liberal and Conservative out the window.

          Oh and when talking about “extreme”, I leave you this quote by Barry Goldwater, “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.”

        • Face the fact that the Democrat party goes out of business if traditional minorities decide to follow the three surefire ways to avoid poverty.

          #1) Its bad for Democrats if minorities get a good education (Therefore the Dems support teachers unions that try to stop education competition of charter and home schooling)

          #2) It’s bad for Democrats for minorities to get a job and work their way up the ladder (Therefore the Dems support minimum wage increases that decrease the number of entry level jobs)

          #3) Its bad for Democrats if women marry and start a family (Therefore Dems support abortion and government handouts to single moms that discourages creation of families)

          In summary, what’s good for the Democrats is bad for our society.

        • The facts are that 78% of the black population in this country voted for Obama in both election and since Obama came into office black employment is up 20%. Now, any thinking person would have to take an honest assessment of that fact, unless he just doesn’t want to believe it. Maybe you are one of those people who just doesn’t believe it, but you are free to check it out for yourself.

        • How is it overtly racist? It’s not deliberately targeting people purely because of the color of their skin. If black people happen to be the ones caught most often with drugs, it’s coincidence.

          • “How is it overtly racist?”

            Like this: “Although rates of drug use and selling are comparable across racial lines, people of color are far more likely to be stopped, searched, arrested, prosecuted, convicted and incarcerated for drug law violations than are whites.”

            And during the Reefer Madness, they didn’t even attempt to disguise the racism – the northern white supremacists were terrified that the jazz musicians migrating up the river were coming to impregnate their lily-white daughters.

        • ^^Can’t tell if legitimate bigot or being sarcastic. Anyone that shrugs off the racist nature and origin of the War on Drugs as “Coincidence, bro!” in 2014 is either being sarcastic, or being deliberately obtuse because they get some kind of emotional reward from it, and can’t deal with the cognitive dissonance of that emotional reward being associated with something as distasteful as bigotry.

          Google the stats and a guy called Harry Anslinger, before you start demanding that we all spoon-feed you proof of the matter.

        • The Democrats all joined with the Republicans in making the extra stiff laws against crack. The media was puffing up the supposed horrors of crack and there was a national paranoia that “something be done” to try to stop the rise of crack. The stiff laws have both R+D fingerprints all over the legislation.

      • All of you trashing Bundy are really quite disgusting, especially Farago for posting this in the first place. You all rush to condemn him based on a proven out of context remark, by the NEW YORK TIMES!!! Of all of the dis – information garbage propaganda mills in this country, the NYT stands head and shoulders above the rest as a den of corrupt liars and scoundrels. And all of you BELIEVE THEM! I also share the above commenter’s sediments , this is a new and unprecedented low for TTAG, which I have been losing a huge amount of respect for lately. So much so, I almost never come here anymore. Most of you are fair weather friends, concerned more about the government wielding power the way YOU want, instead of questioning why the government has so much power at all.

        Farago, you should be ashamed of yourself.

        • Uh, Bill, we saw the video of him saying it. Only a crazy person can call that “out of context” . The cognitive dissonance is actually quite interesting.

          • …try listening to the unedited, uncut version that was sliced and diced by NYT to make it look racist…or just go back to being a cunt troll…..get back on your knees for your overlords….what a joke…


          • …troll…troll…troll…troll…how does it feel this morning…eh? To see the entire video of Mr. Bundy…uncut and unedited by the NYT and MS Media…? How does it feel to have to throw up in your mouth and hold it there ..while you decide in a panic how to now defend your POV? You should be ashamed of yourself…if you knew how…

            RJ O’Guillory
            Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

        • RJ, the thing of it is, people like Sandra are so indoctrinated by our educational system and media (even if that indoctrination is unknowingly) that the posting of the complete and unedited video footage will not sway them in the least. People are so traumatized by the race issue, and so scared of being labeled a racist that they will jump to the most mind-boggling mentally contorted conclusions should any white person ever broach the race issue in anything but the state sanctioned way.

          OMG, a 70 year old man he used the word “negro” when that used to be the state sanctioned word back in the day and the TV used to run commercials for the “United “NEGRO” College Fund”…”because a mind is a terrible thing to waste!”

          The outrage over this is every bit as outrageous to those of us who are willing to look at this without and preconceived notions and an open mind like say a host of other blacks have done when they basically came to Bundy’s same conclusions about the current state of blacks being relegated back into a state of dependence and servitude to the state:

          Or Professor Walter Williams:

          But then I guess to Sandra and her ilk those highly educated and highly logical blacks are just racists and “Uncle Toms.”

          The cognitive dissonance in America today is debilitating.

    • So many holes in what he’s saying, but I think it comes to expectations. I, personally wouldn’t expect anything less from an old white rancher in rural Nevada. Despite his seemingly racist remarks he see’s what he sees and his global view is about land and cattle in Nevada.

      As far as the situation in North Las Vegas, if he would just look around, there are plenty of white people milking the system there as well. If someone said they would be better off in a “work camp”, they might be right, but it’s not a popular opinion, and certainly and argument that has holes in it.

      • Exactly. My own father makes similar ignorant remarks about slavery all the time, believing many or most were actually treated well, as if that would even matter. I also could have fully anticipated that Paula Dean had used the N word at some time in her life, and that no one who sells duck calls for a living would approve of homosexuality. The media shock at predictable events is tiring. But as far as I know none of these people are actively persecuting the people they don’t approve of, and we are allowed to be ignorant in America if we so choose. Something liberals should be very familiar with. Believing that slavery is good for blacks (that’s not exactly what he said) is no more ignorant than believing you’re safer in a gun free zone.

        • Believing that slavery is good for blacks (that’s not exactly what he said) is no more ignorant than believing you’re safer in a gun free zone.

          ^^^ Quote of the day right there! ^^^

    • Try and poke holes? It’s not really difficult is it? He thinks black were better off as slaves? A truly ignorant thing to say. I have no sympathy for the government in this case but I agree that this is not the guy we want to rally around as our “hero”. I said the same thing when another site was holding up the Waco case as an example of persecuted Americans. Yes, the government screwed the pooch in the way they handled the raid. But, is David Koresh, a pedophile with a God complex, really the kind of guy you want to hold up as a martyr? No thanks, not me!

      • He thinks black were better off as slaves?

        Is that a statement or are you asking a question? If it is a statement then you misread what was quoted:

        And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy?

        And I’ve often wondered,” and the question mark following the sentence means it was a question. He was pontificating and doing so at a depth I erroneously assumed was more than he was capable. My own racial/ethnic bias is reflected in my under-estimation of Bundy.

        • Finally, a response of worth. Are we not allowed to pontificate about delicate subjects anymore? Thought Police in 3-2-1

      • “the way they *handled* the case”? The case of a pedophile with a god complex? Where is that in the purview of the ATF? The whole problem to me was the continuous emphasis on the evil Koresh without ever a mention of how the ATF got into his business in any way. Or any other Fed agency, pedophiles fall under local LEO jurisdiction, the feds should not have been present at all.

        BTW, I read one report that claimed that the guys who climbed into that 2d floor window all shot each other to death, hosing off full auto weapons (assault rifles) inside a locked room in the dark, and the guy they left on the roof, as well, without any input from the legal residents. The FBI competently destroyed all incriminating evidence and murdered the people who would have been charged, so we just dropped it.

        • I personally have my doubts about whether they killed each other, but we will probably never know. As I said, there is no doubt that the ATF screwed up royally. We may not agree with some of the laws currently on the books, but if someone chooses to break them, they accept the risk of incurring the wrath of the Feds. We may not like it, but that is reality. How strong was the ATF’s case? I personally don’t know, other then what I have read. My point was that we need to be very careful who we pick to stand behind. A child molesting “prophet” doesn’t strike me as a good choice. The ATF paid a heavy price for their overzealous pursuit of Koresh. We can only hope that they learned something…

        • I don’t know if we’re talking about the same or different things, but here’s what I clearly saw on footage taken at pretty close range, on the roof.

          One agent climbs from the roof through an open window. As soon has he does, the agent directly behind him empties his magazine into the room. There is no way he was not killing the first agent on purpose.

    • Depends on what holes you are discussing in which (assumed) position. The guy is an old, ignorant redneck. But was he saying the blacks should be returned to slavery, or that the government should not be subsidizing their sloth? Because the latter I agree with! In many ways (not all) they WERE often better off under slavery, not because slavery was good or even justifiable, but because the current levl of control over their lives and futures is less humane than slavery. Hell, you could escape from slavery, you sure can’t escape from the dependence fostered by current government programs.

      And Bundy may well have meant that, I don’t know whether he is racist or not, but I pretty much gather he is not fond of the government.

      • Let’s paint what Cliven said in broader strokes: Blacks are worse off now than they were in the past. Back in the 1940’s, the rates of absent black fathers was right down there with absent white fathers. Now, after the ‘Great Society’ from LBJ, black mothers are paid to push fathers out to the curb.

    • it doesn’t take a lot of effort to poke holes in the notion that any group of people is better off as slaves.

  2. Yep. And reason #4832 everyone who is involved in firearms should watch their mouth and play the PR game. It sucks, but that’s what is gonna take. [tinfoil hat mlbthly] the current bigger media channels/pages/blogs are going to try and paint us as backwoods rednecks who hate Obama because he is black so we need to not give them any fuel and call them out when they put words in our mouth or attempt to take things out of context. Rants like what one youtuber did last year stick around a lot longer than anything nice said, so take their ammo away from them. [/tinfoil hat monthly]

    • No tin foil hat needed.

      The larger parts of media, news paper, TV, Hollywood and social media are controlled very much so by left/liberal people. This is a fact not some myth. 98% of liberals want guns confiscated. They will do anything in their power (the media) to reach that goal.

      Gay marriage (I personally don’t care either way) is a perfect example of how the liberal controlled media can help an agenda become law.

      It works both ways of course. If the media was filled with mostly conservative people it could use its leverage to push conservative agenda’s.

      • Very true. One need only look at the conservative “war on terrorism” that drummed up support through media spin and outright lies. Every blessed time we, as a nation, allow our government to act outside of strict constitutional restraints, it’s a mistake. The media, right or left, could huff and puff until it was blue in the face as long as our government was kept in constitutional check it wouldn’t have the disastrous effects we’ve all witnessed.

        • We should remember that the same liberal media could not have been happier to run the “War on Terror” up each and every flagpole they could. They did not reject it; nor did they criticize it in any way. They embraced it with open arms.

      • correction to above…..

        The Left doesn’t control “the larger part of the media” but rather it controls ALL the media and cultural drivers except for a few examples of Fox News, Wall St Journal, a FEW newspapers, and talk radio.

        With this advantage and the fact that approx 50% of America is now on the dole the Left will not stop until they turn our country into some Euro-trash POS.

    • Liberals use the whole deflect tactic when Obama’s faults are pointed out. We don’t need to. Pointing to other people and saying, “but look at what THEY did”, is not a defense.

  3. Ummm…yeah…not quite sure what to say about this one. While I understand what he’s saying, and the fact that his sentiments have been echoed by many a politician (having a job is more satisfying than receiving government handouts), his delivery and context leaves a lot to be desired. I fail to understand why some defenders of freedom in this country still manage to be devisive. If you’re truly for “freedom”, then you are for freedom for all, regardless of race, gender, creed, etc.

  4. I’ve seen my share of light skinned Caucasian welfare junkies too. Except their ancestors weren’t picking cotton centuries ago, so shall I deduce that the Caucasian man is genetically lazy?

    People, is it so hard to LEAVE THE PAST WHERE It BELONGS!?

    One of the things which pisses me off about the Black Community is the constant harping about slavery. “The White Man owes us something!!!!”. People, that was centuries ago. All the people involved with that BS have been dead for a long time, and thus don’t care anymore.

    People overseas sometimes say we Americans have no history. That’s a good thing sometimes, because it cuts down on the pointless feuds many nations deal with today. Let’s not be “that country” where half the residents are trying to kill the other half because of some ancient feud no one can even remember .

    As to Bundy himself, the entire event was just a mall ninja convention . I could see the point if the Feds were shooting at him, but from this perch it looks like Bundy was grandstanding, and wanted more of his own kind to back him up.

    • We harp on slavery because it still exists. It is just in a different form. How many black men have been killed or serving life terms in prison for false convictions? What about the laws put in place that target minorities for harsher sentences? How about the disproportionate incarceration rate of blacks for dug possession, and sale, even though statistics find whites use and sale drugs just as frequently? Once you have been in prison, getting a “legit” job or a well paying job is extremely difficult. You then see blacks either reverting back to crime, or doing jobs under the table for much less than minimum wage to try to provide for themselves and their families.

      I don’t think “the white man” owes me anything. I do think the government, largely white, has a responsibility to fix the problems it has created in this country. Those include the failed idea of the “projects.” Who in their right mind thought, “the best thing we can do is put a bunch of poor people with little education in one building/area together.” The terrible education system provided in low income areas must also be fixed if we ever hope to better conditions here in America.

      • Here’s a thought.

        How about we STOP blaming other racial group for OUR social problems?

        It’s not the “white man’s” fault more black men are in prison then in college. We’ve gone from slavery imposed by government to slavery imposed by OURSELVES!

        That’s the dirty, nasty secret no one wants to face. No, we’d rather blame Santa, the government, the Illuminati, W, Cheney, the GOP, the Easter bunny, anyone but our own damn culture. Why is it that certain black and biracial folk can get out of the ghetto and live great lives, but most wont? If there was some sort of pervasive economic discrimination still at work, then why am I a veteran of the “white man’s” military instead of in a cell?

        Somehow, despite growing up in a seedy part of Chicago with a single parent, I never sold drugs or turned to crime to feed myself. Maybe I’m just weird: goodness knows every person of color my age made THAT point abundently clear in my formitive years. Few things get the point across better then when a high school girl you ask out says “what gang u wit?”
        Apparently the Black kids kept wanting me to ditch my books and join their cliques. When I said no, that’s when the “Uncle Tom” and “Sellout” comments began flying around.

        We have problems with black men being locked up, because black men are told by every voice around them- in some cases including their parents- that they’re not “real ” or “black” unless they break the law like everyone else. When the law shows up its suddenly “discrimination” and “it’s whiteys fault”.

        Most of those “real” dudes I knew are in jail now. And I’m fixing to get my bachelor’s next year. Don’t tell me that it’s the white man’s fault they’re in jail and that I’m some freak of nature.

        • Interesting posts here. I had no idea that black culture could be so antagonistic vs other blacks until almost 10 years ago when I worked with a guy named Patrick (who obviously happened to be black). We were in GA working at a convenience store. He told me some messed up stories about racism including when he was the only black boy on an indoor soccer team and the opposing team’s stands started chanting, “nigger.” W. T. F.

          That made me mad.

          But he also told me he was glad he was dark skinned working at night because light skinned people of color get hate from other black people who were darker. He automatically got different treatment from various black folks who came in the store. This blew my mind. It was like six months to a year later I saw the same topic covered on a talk show and there was lots of anger and resentment thrown around.

          Conversely, Patrick didn’t know that in white culture, Polish people and redheads have stereotypes attached to them. It is amazing how you can live and work next to people your whole life and still know so little about their culture.

          This is why I think people like Bloomberg are reaching the height of arrogance. Black on black crime is a black problem and needs to be solved by the black community. No rich white man is ever going to understand the problem, much less be able to swoop in and fix anything by waving a hand and creating laws.

          Unfortunately, social problems tend to be like that; complex and difficult to frame, much less solve.

        • Here is TTAG, we love to look let the facts speak for themselves. One fact is that there are not more black men in prison than there are in college. That is a myth that keeps being shouted from the rooftops even though it has not been true for many years.

          I am not blaming nor do I condone blaming another race for our problems. I do blame the government for policies put in place. I grew up in the hood(south central los angeles during the late 80s until 2008) with a single mother and graduated with a degree in computer science and engineering from one of the best universities in the world. I also work for one of the largest software companies in the world. I did quite well for myself given the adverse surroundings I was in. I know the only reason I was able to was because of a collective family helping me succeed.

          Not everyone has your same discipline/willpower to resist the temptation of fitting in. I did. but not everyone. It is shortsighted to think that just because you or I made it out everyone can. Speaking on personal experience with South Central, Compton, and Inglewood, California, our educational system is largely to blame for the problems in our areas. You can’t expect people to be upstanding citizens when they can’t even read at 18 years old. You can’t expect them to get decent jobs when they can’t do basic addition, subtraction, and multiplication.

          In terms of black self hatred, it is SOOOOOOOO stupid. But, it isn’t only black people. There are Asians that only go outside when the sun is close to setting because they don’t want to get darker. There are various races bleaching their skin. There are many people that have this belief that the western Caucasian appearance is the highest level of beauty.

          But I digress. Lower income neighborhoods are systematically placed at a disadvantage.

      • @justaman

        I think you nailed one thing – education.

        It’s been said before and it is true that education is the great equalizer. The more honest assessment is done concerning our piss poor public education and the more realistic and rational reform is pursued, the more kids will get a chance in life.

        Unfortunately ST had a good point too – culture can inhibit education and self-betterment. When I was in the Army I had a buddy from long beach who could barely read. Why? His /brother/ would kick his ass if he started acting like he cared about school.

        When your own family is holding you back, what do you do? My answer: get the hell out.

        I believe that trade schools should make a resurgence. I also believe there should be subsidized military schools at least at the high school level. There should also be an easier way to be emancipated or adopted by the state.

        That way kids who are in a bad situation can choose to escape their situation and make a life for themselves rather than find themselves at 18, with no education, no official work experience, and no hope.

        • It is a tough problem to overcome. If and when we fix the education system in lower income areas, it will still take generations for behaviors to change. It is a long play.

          Emancipation is one thing, I wouldn’t want them to become children of the state. My mom was a social worker for 27 years in LA county. A lot of the children in the system are treated poorly and end up repeating the cycle.

          I wish trade schools would make a comeback as well. My cousins are at the age where they are thinking about college. I am trying my best to talk them out of becoming $60K in debt for communications or political science degrees and to go to a trade school and learn to be a mechanic, plumber, contractor, or electrician.

      • How many Black men were splattered on foreign soil, or left limbs and minds there, because the best-paying job available was as cannon fodder?

    • When you have someone like Bundy saying slavery was better, the memory of it stays alive that much longer.

    • I managed to miss anything about “genetically lazy”, heard instead “seduced into dependence on the government, then imprisoned in ghettos”. Interesting. And race has nothing to do with it, white men have been so seduced as well, but do not have a background of slavery for purposes of comparison.

    • You know ST, I don’t comment much but I read TTAG daily. It seems that every time I read one of your comments, you are saying exactly what I was thinking. Props.

    • “I could see the point if the Feds were shooting at him…”

      Well… Maybe the Feds didn’t start shooting because a few hundred armed “mall ninjas” showed up. The best time to come to someone’s defense is before the bullets start flying.

  5. Bundy has never been the unambiguous hero that many here say he was. My conditional support for him is based on the fact that given a choice between someone who doesn’t recognize the authority of the federal government to collect grazing fees on federal land after receiving due process and a gangster like Harry Reid, I will go with private citizen especially when the feds send an armed force to collect a debt that they could have paid with a lein on his cattle. If anybody thinks that Harry Reid doesn’t agree with Cliven Bundy on this I’ve got some free federal grazing land to led you use. They didn’t call Nevada the Mississippi of the West for nothing.

    And let’s be honest and admit there is a racist strain in the militia movement.

    • I assume you are excluding the conservatives who happen to be black and part of the militia movement? Or did you mean to paint with that broad brush. There may be certain individuals in the militia who are racist but to say that there’s a “strain of racism” is beyond the pale.

      • No, I’ve noticed this too. There is a strain of racism in the militia movement. That’s not to say there isn’t racism in most every other segment of society as well. But it is evident in the militia movement, & since it is prejudicially expected it hits people’s confirmation bias every time it shows itself.

      • I see we have a strain of illiteracy in the comments.

        A strain of racism means that: some militiamen are white racists; some are black racists; some are Muslim supremacists some are not racists at all but to deny that there are racist groups forming militias is naive and disingenuous.
        The bottom line is that the militia movement contains a broad spectrum of people and contains both good and bad groups.

  6. It’s a shame. Bundy’s being attacked via regulation and so his “no legal leg to stand on” issue is largely a case of government wielding their power to legislate our lives to their whims. It’s a bad situation and one that we need to reverse so that what happened to him doesn’t happen to all of us.

    At the same time, we could win this battle and lose the war. We already have a PR problem. People rallied to his defense but he continues to make it difficult to support him. Kind of like that one friend who always picks fights to see if you’ll take a punch for him. After awhile you just have to admit that’s not the kind of “friend” you need.

  7. I agree. If a man’s character is not up to snuff and the way he thinks and the words he uses are uncomfortable for me. . . he deserves no freedom nor defense of any he may have. Let him lick the government boot, no sweat off my brow.

  8. Saying stupid things is not sufficient enough reason to limit someone’s rights in any way. Just because you support his rights to say it doesn’t mean you agree with it.

    • Saying stupid things is an indicator that you’re an idiot and do idiotic things and don’t have a lick of sense.

      Bundy’s case is not clear cut. No objective analysis of his situation can say he is obviously in the right. The BLM is obviously over reacting, but it’s not clear that he didn’t bring this on himself. My impression was that he was a dumb hot head without a lick of sense. He’s now proven this to be an accurate assessment, and so he when there is any doubt about the merit of his claims, the doubt should go against him.

      Shame on TTAG for supporting this racist nut who complains about others mooching off the government when he demands a perpetual right to do the same on a multimillion dollar scale with his cattle.

      • “…Shame on TTAG for supporting this racist nut ”

        Supporting the right to say idiot things is NOT the same as supporting the idiot.

        And shame only works from a parent to child, it is not something you can say to another adult with any effect.

  9. I was immediately soured on the Bundy story the moment Constitution-friendly sheriff said ‘Women & Children First.’
    The liberty/militia movement has deeply, deeply flawed leadership at large. This wasn’t about Bundy. It isn’t now. The militia movement lacks fundamental decent leadership at large. I want to see that addressed.

    • I agree. I hear lots of talk about the 3%r’s. What they forget is the studies that have shown that in addition to the 3% of people actively involved, you need 70% of the “common folk” backing you up. This is one of the reasons I oppose people strapping on AR’s and AK’s, and taking a walk around town just waiting for someone to call the police so they can shoot some video for YouTube. This is NOT how we reach mainstream America. We do it by being responsible gun owners and showing people the truth as opposed to what the MSM tells them. There are some among us who are harming our movement. From some comments, it’s clear that there is a small group that actually hopes for violent confrontation. They will also probably be the first to run and hide, if something truly does happen. Only a fool hopes for war!