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 Confrontation outside the Bundy Ranch in Nevada (courtesy

I know: this is a gun blog. The militia men who gathered at Cliven Bundy’s ranch to confront the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) have headed home after the BLM returned Mr. Bundy’s “trespass cattle.” But the enmity between Cliven’s supporters and the federal government – which almost disintegrated into a ballistic battle –  continues to simmer. Bundy’s incendiary anti-government rhetoric shows no signs of cooling off. And the New York Times is there! “I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” Bundy told a press conference consisting of one reporter, from the Times. “Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas . . .

‘and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

‘And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do? They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.’

That’s pretty much typical Bundy: start with an important insight into the relationship between government and the governed, personalize it and then add bucketfuls of bitter bile. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: this is not the people’s champion you’re looking for.

Senator Rand Paul –  a man who constantly and lucidly expresses Constitutional concerns about government over-reach – distanced himself from Bundy’s racist remarks. Gregg Abbott, Texas Governor Rick Perry’s heir apparent, also backed away from Bundy. As you’d expect. The question is . . .

What do the militia men say? Will they deploy to the Bundy Ranch now if Uncle Sam comes knocking on Cliven’s door to collect unpaid rent? We certainly know what the left will say. Militia members are white supremacists. Gun owners are racists. It’s a very short step to “anyone with a gun is a domestic terrorist,” the term Senator Harry Reid used to describe Bundy supporters.

I know that this is a complicated case; including the fact Senator Harry Reid’s insider dealing could be the [previously] unseen hand behind the BLM’s actions against Bundy. But character is fate. Bundy’s deeply flawed character could seal the fate for the entire American militia movement – and otherwise uninvolved gun owners as well.

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      • I am taking the below quote from “Marcus” in the comments section on Yahoo. While the quote is overtly political, it can apply to liberty-lovers vs statists as well.

        “This is a perfect example of how the left wins and wins and wins. When someone on the right is stupid or worse, they know how to take full advantage.

        Mr. Bundy has shown himself to be a complete idiot at this point. His run-off-at-the-mouth stupidity has allowed the left to advance their own narrative. “See! any oposition to Obama IS racism!” is what this article practically screams, backed up with a colorful venn diagram (science!) to drive the point home.

        Going forward, it’s going to be tougher to criticize Obama or discuss government overreach or bullying because folks on the right have invested some time in this old fart rancher who was indeed being pushed around and bullied by the gov, even though he was probably legally in the wrong.

        The right has to become a lot more savvy about who they emotionally invest in, and pretty much has to sideline the racists in their own ranks (the left has them too, they manifest themselves differently but I digress….).

        They’ve got to recognize the left’s game: “PLEASE hurt me or someone else! Please be bad….Please do something evil!!! so I can puff up my chest and be a righteous victim! PLEASE!!!!”

        Quit handing them the weapon that they’ll kill you with.”

        • Our government is limited by the Constitution whereas Bundy is not. Stop playing a game where the opponent stacks the deck. What Bundy can say, the government can’t.

          Aww, look… government thinks it’s people! How cute… not.

      • Bundy wasn’t saying nothing about blacks as a class that wasn’t true. Blacks congregate in their local enclaves and figure there’s no way to get out so why try. While men like Allen West and Ben Carson must have had parents or grandparents who decided to leave that sihthole at some point. Each person has to decide for themselves when they’ve had enough abuse. It’s no different than the myriad of liberal fruitcakes who are still waiting to give Hope and Change a chance. Obviously, they aren’t finished with their dose of abuse.

        No, Bundy wasn’t lambasting the blacks as being lazy, he was pointing out how many of them are still stuck in the system of oppression that the globalists and elites manage to stay so comfortably removed from.

        That’s my take on it anyway, at least from what was stated in this article.

        • Yes, but these days even noticing existing facts can earn the brand of “Racist.” I couldn’t give a rat’s turd less what color the Ayatollah Obama’s skin is. I hate him because he’s a Hitler clone (cue Godwin), but that little factoid is lost on his disciples. In their headbone, anybody who doesn’t worship the ground he slithers across is a “racist.”

    • The problem with this scenario is this:

      A lot of people, including myself, will not support a man who is in the right vs one issue when if given any amount of legitimate power himself, would create or perpetuate issues as bad or worse.

      Kind of like… I would not rally to the side of a crack dealer who is being unfairly targeted for IRS audit.

      And associating in any way politically with people who have barbaric and hate-filled views is public opinion suicide.

      For example, could you imagine publicly being seen coming to the aid of and hanging out with a convicted child molester and person who gives interviews saying women would be better off without the right to vote?

      Could you imagine the backlash if everyone knew a man with children was dating Casey Anthony?

      I am not comparing Bundy with the metaphorical example above, but you get my point.

      • Hollywood jumped to the support of a known child molester, and nobody cared.

        Big names back in 2009 rallied to get Roman Polanski released from arrest, and folks still go to see their movies, nobody cared.

        Even though they guy pleaded guilty to seducing a 13 year old, and then fled the country.

        So when Harvey Weinstein talks about how immoral guns are, and how against the NRA he is, I’m often amused by the fact that most folks forgot he was quite alright with child rape.

      • I would come to the aid of all of those straw men you propped up there if their individual rights were being stomped on by government. I guess that’s the difference between statists and Liberty loving people… I don’t have to even like the individual to recognize that they are endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights. Rights for me but not for thee is the real cancer. If one cannot support the rights of those we might perceive as the most vile in our society then what have we? A utopian society where every last individual is 100% moral and in agreement 100% of the time is a pipe dream. Even 50% all the way around is probably unlikely at best.

        • Pretty sure the *pro-slavery* guy is a “rights for me, not for thee” type, and therefore, cancer.

        • Perhaps or perhaps not as his statement reflected a question and not an absolute statement. Still, I defend against government usurpation of rights. Individual *actions* are a domestic criminal matter and not a Liberty matter. Is Bundy an agent of government acting under the authority of government? If not, then his statement doesn’t negatively alter my support in any way.

        • +1, We don’t always get to pick the ground for our battles. The statists attacked Bundy so we have to defend. Otherwise, well: “In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.” – Pastor Martin Niemöller

        • I disagree.

          Because the Bundy situation isn’t just about defending one’s fellow man. It’s about making a statement – intentional or not.

          And while making a statement, much less a political statement, one must choose one’s bedfellows carefully.

          To your “they came for the Jews ..etc etc etc” byte above, a more accurate example would be:

          “They came for the Jews, but I chose to defend a Jew who molested little boys for fun. This was widely publicized and as a result, it was easier for the government to take everyone’s weapons quicker, resulting in the brutalization of more Jews quicker than before.”

          See what I did there?

        • So Bundy is now a racist and a child molester? How many slaves does he own, how many boys has he raped? Do have video and audio? I am sure the New York Times will pay you for it.

        • Your reply was disingenuous and you chose to ignore my point.

          I will no longer discuss this with you.

        • There is a litmus test applied to people you will defend. No child molesters, etc, got it. I don’t think I was making an argument that you had to defend child molesters. That was your example. Sorry if I ran with it. Bundy proved that if you bring guns to a protest, people listen. That what I learned from this issue.

        • If anyone has solid proof that Bundy is keeping slaves on his ranch or anywhere else, I’ll personally gather a posse and lead it to free those slaves. If the man said something or believes something that’s a whole different animal than actually keeping slaves.

        • @John – I hear you. The problem here though isn’t that he’s a bigot and people were trying to help him oppose big .gov. I am all for that – his bigotry doesn’t preclude him from being an American citizen.

          The problem is that he was becoming a rallying cry for those who oppose big government and the man is not nearly smart or clean enough to be an icon like that without damaging the very cause seeking to illuminate his situation and defend him.

      • You may not agree with the man’s philosophies, but what the government did was plain freakin’ wrong. I’m not supporting the man – I’m supporting for the Constitution and rule of law as intended by the founders. There is a HUGE distinction there.

        • Oh definitely – what the government did was completely wrong.

          But you won’t find me hanging out in the middle of nowhere with my MSAR having a standoff with government goods over it, though.

          And with this newest bigot revelation, there is just another reason not to.

        • …I hate to say this….as I am not racist and would not support the observations made in the article … but how do we know he even said this? Is there a video or taped recording of him speaking in a racist manner or behaving in a racist way?

          If you were the government…and you had access to “The New York Lies”…why wouldn’t you insure some disinformation was put into the hopper … just to further divide.. and indict a man who may not be racist at all?

          RJ O’Guillory
          Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

        • @ RJ – Because in the last week or two it has become apparent that Bundy is a semi-intelligible idiot who has been enjoying the fame a little too much so these quotes aren’t exactly surprising at this point.

      • Ruby Ridge guy was a racist. Doesn’t make what the government did to his family right. I guess I’m weird in that I can support someone on one thing, but totally disagree with him on another.

        • I agree with you – but we are talking about personally throwing in with people here.

          Yes, your example is correct – but true to my point, I would not have rallied to Ruby Ridge any more than I would with Bundy.

        • Randy Weaver was/is not a racist, but rather a white separatist. There is a difference, though I’m not here to defend either, just set the record straight.

    • Although not politically correct, I don’t see anything wrong with being critical of todays culture of the project life. Bundy does not think that blacks should be enslaved. That is why he used it in the comparison. “When I drive by a housing project…” is not the same as “When I drive through the suburb and I see black people outside playing ball, grilling out or washing their car or cutting the grass…”. The government housing project is another failed program and shame on you “Conservatives” for not getting the point!

      • Agreed Michael. Pastor C.L. Bryant (a former NAACP chapter president) made many of the same observations in his documentary “Runaway Slave:”

        I guess to this crowd here at TTAG its only racist when a crusty, crotchety old white rancher makes the observations?

        Been following this site for years and I have to say that I found this article and these comments very disappointing.

        • It seems even our liberty loving brothers and sisters are easy to bait with a quote taken out of context. An old man using old verbiage makes a comparison to two types of slavery and the press attempts to crucify him. I am surprised at the positive comments on many of the facebook posts about this, and the diversity of the commenters. It seems we have sank further into the liberal quicksand than I thought.

          I stole this for emphasis.

          “The word “racist” has for a long time been the single most effective fear-word in the leftist and neoconservative arsenal. For decades, they have successfully used it in the political arena to slander traditionalists, shut down debate, and leave opponents running for cover. In the social arena, they have caused even more damage by using it to brainwash impressionable children and young college students, and to teach people to hate their nation, their cultural traditions, and worst of all, themselves.

          What surprisingly remains almost totally undiscussed, even on the hard core traditionalist Right, is the word’s origin. Did it come from a liberal sociologist? A 60’s Marxist college professor? Perhaps a politician in the Democratic Party? No. It turns out that the word was invented by none other than one of the principal architects of the 74-year Soviet nightmare, the founder and first leader of the infamous Red Army, Leon Trotsky.”

    • Please, I do not understand how people defend this man. We just had a meeting in Nevada concerning getting federal land not RETURNED to the state, because it has ALWAYS been federal land but transfered to the state. As a Nevadan, I want to know what that means for our state. This is a big undertaking and needs to be done through legal channels, giving thought to the consequences. You don’t just point your guns and demand it. Bundy is using it as an excuse for getting a free ride.
      No one has a right to put as many cows wherever they want on public lands. This is ignorant and irresponsible. The range needs to be managed or Nevada will become a dust bowl. Look at reality. Does Bundy alone get to do whatever he wants or do people get to build mines wherever they want , be allowed to poison our precious aquifers and pay no fees? Can anyone just drill for natural gas wherever they want ? Can I go turn my horses out on BLM land, let them trample and contaminate the springs and overgraze the range? Do I get free range for my livestock? Do they get to run as many cows as they want in our national forest and feed hay with invasive weeds in it ? Cheet grass, the notorioue driver of wildfires is a non native invasive species introduced to the range by cattle ranchers. Now they are required to feed weed free hay if they are feeding in a national forest so as not to harm the forest. I guess that is tyranny also. Things change because increased populations put increased pressures on public lands. At the same time, as we know more we adjust our practices. This is a conservative principle. There is nothing conservative about allowing anyone to destroy our public lands by refusing to allow them to be managed.

      • …his family have been on the land since 1877…they have legal agreements with both The State of Nevada as well as The Federal Government up until the corrupt government decided to use “environmentalism” as an excuse to start stealing land…that they intend to use to finance the debt…and to sell to foreign governments in order to protect the US Bond Market…and for energy and other projects…that benefit the politicians…not the people….let me ask you something….does it take you very long to get off of your knees when someone comes into the room who is not a corrupt government John…who pays your way?

        What a sad soul you must be…


        • VS the BLM. The law is WHATEVER the BLM SAYS IT IS. Do you think the BLM is going to recommend the judge rule in Bundy’s favor?

          THEY WANT HIS LAND. PERIOD. The BLM makes up a rule in their favor. They tell the judge. He rules in their favor, because THEY GET TO MAKE THE LAW.

          Is this still difficult for you to understand?

        • …honey…you are just uniformed regarding how your government works…for instance…why is it that no one has been to prison for the banking scandals…the savings and loan scandal…why is no one being prosecuted for Fast and Furious… torture…and kidnapping…(oh sorry…Rendition … make me vomit)…who went to prison for killing all those men, women and children at Waco… Ruby Ridge….why do you think 3 buildings were imploded on 911…but a vast number of Americans are not even aware of that…and have believed for over a decade that two buildings fell due to “planes hitting them”? This is the same group of people (like yourself) who believed that the 911 “hijackers” passports just happened to flutter to the ground and end up on the liquid-red-hot pile of steaming debris…in perfect condition….?

          Honey…your government…all three branches of it…are corrupt beyond imagination (for you)…and so you think that…”law”…or ” the courts”…get to define what is right vs. wrong…or Constitutional….but if you think that corrupt groups of very rich people are going to decide the “law” without bias…you have along, hard life ahead of you….with a lot of shattered beliefs….


        • As do all regulatory agencies William. The unconstitutionality of unelected and unaccountable regulators making up whatever rules they want is absolutely mind-boggling. The founders would have been shooting already over such an abusive state of affairs. The law says whatever the regulators want it to and those laws are enforced by their own private standing armies. There is literally no way for the people to hold these bureaucrats or their rules accountable. Supposedly there is a way to change “bad” regulations and they even have a written policy on how to do so to appease “public” scrutiny, but the truth of the matter is that it is near impossible for “the people” to revise or eliminate draconian regulations.

          The Bundy standoff may show a new way to affect regulatory change…only time will tell.

        • Hey RJ… I can sell you that Federal Land for $1.00 an acre – how many thousands do you want???
          Bundy’s Mother bought his ranch in 1947… The 1870’s story was another Sean Hannity scam!!
          Please get your facts!! If Bundy was an African American – they would say he was a freeloader and shoot him dead – and then claim Stand Your Ground!! Why the Hate for our constitution?? Read it!! An armed rebellion against the Government – whether it is run by Reagan, Bush or Obama is called TYRANNY!!

          My Gawd We have so many racist hypocrites… SAD!

        • …sorry Chuck…you are embarrassing well as revealing your troll-roll…we can see it in the slimy trail you are leaving…and you know you are dead wrong about the grazing rights…and the Bundy Family claim to land that is being stolen by corrupt government officials…with an agenda to steal the oil, minerals and well as selling the land to the Chinese…if none of that is true…why are they investigating Senator Ride and his Son? I’ve worked for these criminals…all over the world…and you are simply clue son…simply clueless…and when the traitors in this country are identified…and convicted of treason…they will be hung….I can’t wait…I hope your death is slow and angonizing…so that in the last few minutes of yoru pathetic life…you’ll know what liberty really feels like….citizen juries…treason charges…convictions…and hangings…that I what we need a little more of…not little Chuck’s uninformed opinion…and before you call me a racist…I worked as a DoD as an International Diversity Instructor as well as a Management Development Specialist…so I know business…and I know how corrupt the government is…people like you will only acknowledge that after your Mom and Dad have been taken to the FEMA Camp….what a loser…



        • “and the Bundy Family claim to land that is being stolen by corrupt government officials…with an agenda to steal the oil, minerals and well as selling the land to the Chinese…”

          Which, of course, explains the troll-o-rama.

        • Welcome, troll!! We suddenly have many of your kind. Right here. Trying to divide and conquer.
          You won’t last long here.

      • This is a glaring example of the "tragedy of the commons." The right answer, which will eventually come to light, is to privatize all of it. Auction off parcels, then each owner will take care of their own plot. And no matter how big a parcel some rich individual buys, how could an individual property owner possibly do a worse job of managing it than a fustercluck of Washington DC bureaucrats?

        • “how could an individual property owner possibly do a worse job of managing it than a fustercluck of Washington DC bureaucrats?”

          By building a prison. By building a Formula One track. By building a Zyklon-B factory. Lots of ways, actually, limited only by the imagination.

          Your vision of Glorious Unfettered Capitalism never takes into account the greed and evil that lurks in the hearts of men. Once in a while, they don’t do things that are good for the rest of humanity.

  1. Haven’t they always said that ,”Militia members are white supremacists. Gun owners are racists.” ? Nothing new there.
    Now, try and poke holes in what Cliven is saying.

    • “And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

      So, being beaten, branded, not having any say in your life, having your kids taken from you and sold to others is better? This is beyond ignorant. The sad fact is, the liberals have kept the blacks down by herding them into the inner cities, ensuring that they cannot go to good schools and telling them that racism is holding them back. By keeping them poor and uneducated, the left has tricked them into giving up the freedom that was so hard won in the first place. That doesn’t mean that they were better off when they were considered property and not humans.

      • Holding your statement to the standard by which Bundy was judged… your statement is racist. You infer that a certain ethnic group is too weak and/or ignorant to overcome socialist influence. 😉

      • As a black man, I was with you until your rant on how liberals were holding my people back. It’s too simplistic and relies far too much on conservative propaganda (and, by the way, I’m an independent of is of the opinion that, not only do both sides have a couple of good ideas that are good for the country, their extreme views suck in more ways than one). This is far more complicated. And Bundy isn’t worth my time r energy – which is why I’ve only invested in three sound bites, at the most, since that foolishness started.

        • I am truly interested to know what you think is the cause for the decline of the inner city subculture then. If it isn’t liberal policies that are holding people back in the inner cities, then what is? And more importantly, what is the solution to it?

        • Fine, than as a Yellow Man, I contend that it is Modern or Neo-Liberalism that is holding minorities and the poor back, not Classical Liberalism. Once you understand the differences, throw the term Liberal and Conservative out the window.

          Oh and when talking about “extreme”, I leave you this quote by Barry Goldwater, “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.”

        • Face the fact that the Democrat party goes out of business if traditional minorities decide to follow the three surefire ways to avoid poverty.

          #1) Its bad for Democrats if minorities get a good education (Therefore the Dems support teachers unions that try to stop education competition of charter and home schooling)

          #2) It’s bad for Democrats for minorities to get a job and work their way up the ladder (Therefore the Dems support minimum wage increases that decrease the number of entry level jobs)

          #3) Its bad for Democrats if women marry and start a family (Therefore Dems support abortion and government handouts to single moms that discourages creation of families)

          In summary, what’s good for the Democrats is bad for our society.

        • The facts are that 78% of the black population in this country voted for Obama in both election and since Obama came into office black employment is up 20%. Now, any thinking person would have to take an honest assessment of that fact, unless he just doesn’t want to believe it. Maybe you are one of those people who just doesn’t believe it, but you are free to check it out for yourself.

        • How is it overtly racist? It’s not deliberately targeting people purely because of the color of their skin. If black people happen to be the ones caught most often with drugs, it’s coincidence.

        • “How is it overtly racist?”

          Like this: “Although rates of drug use and selling are comparable across racial lines, people of color are far more likely to be stopped, searched, arrested, prosecuted, convicted and incarcerated for drug law violations than are whites.”

          And during the Reefer Madness, they didn’t even attempt to disguise the racism – the northern white supremacists were terrified that the jazz musicians migrating up the river were coming to impregnate their lily-white daughters.

        • ^^Can’t tell if legitimate bigot or being sarcastic. Anyone that shrugs off the racist nature and origin of the War on Drugs as “Coincidence, bro!” in 2014 is either being sarcastic, or being deliberately obtuse because they get some kind of emotional reward from it, and can’t deal with the cognitive dissonance of that emotional reward being associated with something as distasteful as bigotry.

          Google the stats and a guy called Harry Anslinger, before you start demanding that we all spoon-feed you proof of the matter.

        • The Democrats all joined with the Republicans in making the extra stiff laws against crack. The media was puffing up the supposed horrors of crack and there was a national paranoia that “something be done” to try to stop the rise of crack. The stiff laws have both R+D fingerprints all over the legislation.

      • All of you trashing Bundy are really quite disgusting, especially Farago for posting this in the first place. You all rush to condemn him based on a proven out of context remark, by the NEW YORK TIMES!!! Of all of the dis – information garbage propaganda mills in this country, the NYT stands head and shoulders above the rest as a den of corrupt liars and scoundrels. And all of you BELIEVE THEM! I also share the above commenter’s sediments , this is a new and unprecedented low for TTAG, which I have been losing a huge amount of respect for lately. So much so, I almost never come here anymore. Most of you are fair weather friends, concerned more about the government wielding power the way YOU want, instead of questioning why the government has so much power at all.

        Farago, you should be ashamed of yourself.

        • Uh, Bill, we saw the video of him saying it. Only a crazy person can call that “out of context” . The cognitive dissonance is actually quite interesting.

        • …try listening to the unedited, uncut version that was sliced and diced by NYT to make it look racist…or just go back to being a cunt troll…..get back on your knees for your overlords….what a joke…


        • …troll…troll…troll…troll…how does it feel this morning…eh? To see the entire video of Mr. Bundy…uncut and unedited by the NYT and MS Media…? How does it feel to have to throw up in your mouth and hold it there ..while you decide in a panic how to now defend your POV? You should be ashamed of yourself…if you knew how…

          RJ O’Guillory
          Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

        • RJ, the thing of it is, people like Sandra are so indoctrinated by our educational system and media (even if that indoctrination is unknowingly) that the posting of the complete and unedited video footage will not sway them in the least. People are so traumatized by the race issue, and so scared of being labeled a racist that they will jump to the most mind-boggling mentally contorted conclusions should any white person ever broach the race issue in anything but the state sanctioned way.

          OMG, a 70 year old man he used the word “negro” when that used to be the state sanctioned word back in the day and the TV used to run commercials for the “United “NEGRO” College Fund”…”because a mind is a terrible thing to waste!”

          The outrage over this is every bit as outrageous to those of us who are willing to look at this without and preconceived notions and an open mind like say a host of other blacks have done when they basically came to Bundy’s same conclusions about the current state of blacks being relegated back into a state of dependence and servitude to the state:

          Or Professor Walter Williams:

          But then I guess to Sandra and her ilk those highly educated and highly logical blacks are just racists and “Uncle Toms.”

          The cognitive dissonance in America today is debilitating.

    • So many holes in what he’s saying, but I think it comes to expectations. I, personally wouldn’t expect anything less from an old white rancher in rural Nevada. Despite his seemingly racist remarks he see’s what he sees and his global view is about land and cattle in Nevada.

      As far as the situation in North Las Vegas, if he would just look around, there are plenty of white people milking the system there as well. If someone said they would be better off in a “work camp”, they might be right, but it’s not a popular opinion, and certainly and argument that has holes in it.

      • Exactly. My own father makes similar ignorant remarks about slavery all the time, believing many or most were actually treated well, as if that would even matter. I also could have fully anticipated that Paula Dean had used the N word at some time in her life, and that no one who sells duck calls for a living would approve of homosexuality. The media shock at predictable events is tiring. But as far as I know none of these people are actively persecuting the people they don’t approve of, and we are allowed to be ignorant in America if we so choose. Something liberals should be very familiar with. Believing that slavery is good for blacks (that’s not exactly what he said) is no more ignorant than believing you’re safer in a gun free zone.

        • Believing that slavery is good for blacks (that’s not exactly what he said) is no more ignorant than believing you’re safer in a gun free zone.

          ^^^ Quote of the day right there! ^^^

    • Try and poke holes? It’s not really difficult is it? He thinks black were better off as slaves? A truly ignorant thing to say. I have no sympathy for the government in this case but I agree that this is not the guy we want to rally around as our “hero”. I said the same thing when another site was holding up the Waco case as an example of persecuted Americans. Yes, the government screwed the pooch in the way they handled the raid. But, is David Koresh, a pedophile with a God complex, really the kind of guy you want to hold up as a martyr? No thanks, not me!

      • He thinks black were better off as slaves?

        Is that a statement or are you asking a question? If it is a statement then you misread what was quoted:

        And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy?

        And I’ve often wondered,” and the question mark following the sentence means it was a question. He was pontificating and doing so at a depth I erroneously assumed was more than he was capable. My own racial/ethnic bias is reflected in my under-estimation of Bundy.

        • Finally, a response of worth. Are we not allowed to pontificate about delicate subjects anymore? Thought Police in 3-2-1

      • “the way they *handled* the case”? The case of a pedophile with a god complex? Where is that in the purview of the ATF? The whole problem to me was the continuous emphasis on the evil Koresh without ever a mention of how the ATF got into his business in any way. Or any other Fed agency, pedophiles fall under local LEO jurisdiction, the feds should not have been present at all.

        BTW, I read one report that claimed that the guys who climbed into that 2d floor window all shot each other to death, hosing off full auto weapons (assault rifles) inside a locked room in the dark, and the guy they left on the roof, as well, without any input from the legal residents. The FBI competently destroyed all incriminating evidence and murdered the people who would have been charged, so we just dropped it.

        • I personally have my doubts about whether they killed each other, but we will probably never know. As I said, there is no doubt that the ATF screwed up royally. We may not agree with some of the laws currently on the books, but if someone chooses to break them, they accept the risk of incurring the wrath of the Feds. We may not like it, but that is reality. How strong was the ATF’s case? I personally don’t know, other then what I have read. My point was that we need to be very careful who we pick to stand behind. A child molesting “prophet” doesn’t strike me as a good choice. The ATF paid a heavy price for their overzealous pursuit of Koresh. We can only hope that they learned something…

        • I don’t know if we’re talking about the same or different things, but here’s what I clearly saw on footage taken at pretty close range, on the roof.

          One agent climbs from the roof through an open window. As soon has he does, the agent directly behind him empties his magazine into the room. There is no way he was not killing the first agent on purpose.

    • Depends on what holes you are discussing in which (assumed) position. The guy is an old, ignorant redneck. But was he saying the blacks should be returned to slavery, or that the government should not be subsidizing their sloth? Because the latter I agree with! In many ways (not all) they WERE often better off under slavery, not because slavery was good or even justifiable, but because the current levl of control over their lives and futures is less humane than slavery. Hell, you could escape from slavery, you sure can’t escape from the dependence fostered by current government programs.

      And Bundy may well have meant that, I don’t know whether he is racist or not, but I pretty much gather he is not fond of the government.

      • Let’s paint what Cliven said in broader strokes: Blacks are worse off now than they were in the past. Back in the 1940’s, the rates of absent black fathers was right down there with absent white fathers. Now, after the ‘Great Society’ from LBJ, black mothers are paid to push fathers out to the curb.

    • it doesn’t take a lot of effort to poke holes in the notion that any group of people is better off as slaves.

  2. Yep. And reason #4832 everyone who is involved in firearms should watch their mouth and play the PR game. It sucks, but that’s what is gonna take. [tinfoil hat mlbthly] the current bigger media channels/pages/blogs are going to try and paint us as backwoods rednecks who hate Obama because he is black so we need to not give them any fuel and call them out when they put words in our mouth or attempt to take things out of context. Rants like what one youtuber did last year stick around a lot longer than anything nice said, so take their ammo away from them. [/tinfoil hat monthly]

    • No tin foil hat needed.

      The larger parts of media, news paper, TV, Hollywood and social media are controlled very much so by left/liberal people. This is a fact not some myth. 98% of liberals want guns confiscated. They will do anything in their power (the media) to reach that goal.

      Gay marriage (I personally don’t care either way) is a perfect example of how the liberal controlled media can help an agenda become law.

      It works both ways of course. If the media was filled with mostly conservative people it could use its leverage to push conservative agenda’s.

      • Very true. One need only look at the conservative “war on terrorism” that drummed up support through media spin and outright lies. Every blessed time we, as a nation, allow our government to act outside of strict constitutional restraints, it’s a mistake. The media, right or left, could huff and puff until it was blue in the face as long as our government was kept in constitutional check it wouldn’t have the disastrous effects we’ve all witnessed.

        • We should remember that the same liberal media could not have been happier to run the “War on Terror” up each and every flagpole they could. They did not reject it; nor did they criticize it in any way. They embraced it with open arms.

      • correction to above…..

        The Left doesn’t control “the larger part of the media” but rather it controls ALL the media and cultural drivers except for a few examples of Fox News, Wall St Journal, a FEW newspapers, and talk radio.

        With this advantage and the fact that approx 50% of America is now on the dole the Left will not stop until they turn our country into some Euro-trash POS.

    • Liberals use the whole deflect tactic when Obama’s faults are pointed out. We don’t need to. Pointing to other people and saying, “but look at what THEY did”, is not a defense.

  3. Ummm…yeah…not quite sure what to say about this one. While I understand what he’s saying, and the fact that his sentiments have been echoed by many a politician (having a job is more satisfying than receiving government handouts), his delivery and context leaves a lot to be desired. I fail to understand why some defenders of freedom in this country still manage to be devisive. If you’re truly for “freedom”, then you are for freedom for all, regardless of race, gender, creed, etc.

  4. I’ve seen my share of light skinned Caucasian welfare junkies too. Except their ancestors weren’t picking cotton centuries ago, so shall I deduce that the Caucasian man is genetically lazy?

    People, is it so hard to LEAVE THE PAST WHERE It BELONGS!?

    One of the things which pisses me off about the Black Community is the constant harping about slavery. “The White Man owes us something!!!!”. People, that was centuries ago. All the people involved with that BS have been dead for a long time, and thus don’t care anymore.

    People overseas sometimes say we Americans have no history. That’s a good thing sometimes, because it cuts down on the pointless feuds many nations deal with today. Let’s not be “that country” where half the residents are trying to kill the other half because of some ancient feud no one can even remember .

    As to Bundy himself, the entire event was just a mall ninja convention . I could see the point if the Feds were shooting at him, but from this perch it looks like Bundy was grandstanding, and wanted more of his own kind to back him up.

    • We harp on slavery because it still exists. It is just in a different form. How many black men have been killed or serving life terms in prison for false convictions? What about the laws put in place that target minorities for harsher sentences? How about the disproportionate incarceration rate of blacks for dug possession, and sale, even though statistics find whites use and sale drugs just as frequently? Once you have been in prison, getting a “legit” job or a well paying job is extremely difficult. You then see blacks either reverting back to crime, or doing jobs under the table for much less than minimum wage to try to provide for themselves and their families.

      I don’t think “the white man” owes me anything. I do think the government, largely white, has a responsibility to fix the problems it has created in this country. Those include the failed idea of the “projects.” Who in their right mind thought, “the best thing we can do is put a bunch of poor people with little education in one building/area together.” The terrible education system provided in low income areas must also be fixed if we ever hope to better conditions here in America.

      • Here’s a thought.

        How about we STOP blaming other racial group for OUR social problems?

        It’s not the “white man’s” fault more black men are in prison then in college. We’ve gone from slavery imposed by government to slavery imposed by OURSELVES!

        That’s the dirty, nasty secret no one wants to face. No, we’d rather blame Santa, the government, the Illuminati, W, Cheney, the GOP, the Easter bunny, anyone but our own damn culture. Why is it that certain black and biracial folk can get out of the ghetto and live great lives, but most wont? If there was some sort of pervasive economic discrimination still at work, then why am I a veteran of the “white man’s” military instead of in a cell?

        Somehow, despite growing up in a seedy part of Chicago with a single parent, I never sold drugs or turned to crime to feed myself. Maybe I’m just weird: goodness knows every person of color my age made THAT point abundently clear in my formitive years. Few things get the point across better then when a high school girl you ask out says “what gang u wit?”
        Apparently the Black kids kept wanting me to ditch my books and join their cliques. When I said no, that’s when the “Uncle Tom” and “Sellout” comments began flying around.

        We have problems with black men being locked up, because black men are told by every voice around them- in some cases including their parents- that they’re not “real ” or “black” unless they break the law like everyone else. When the law shows up its suddenly “discrimination” and “it’s whiteys fault”.

        Most of those “real” dudes I knew are in jail now. And I’m fixing to get my bachelor’s next year. Don’t tell me that it’s the white man’s fault they’re in jail and that I’m some freak of nature.

        • Interesting posts here. I had no idea that black culture could be so antagonistic vs other blacks until almost 10 years ago when I worked with a guy named Patrick (who obviously happened to be black). We were in GA working at a convenience store. He told me some messed up stories about racism including when he was the only black boy on an indoor soccer team and the opposing team’s stands started chanting, “nigger.” W. T. F.

          That made me mad.

          But he also told me he was glad he was dark skinned working at night because light skinned people of color get hate from other black people who were darker. He automatically got different treatment from various black folks who came in the store. This blew my mind. It was like six months to a year later I saw the same topic covered on a talk show and there was lots of anger and resentment thrown around.

          Conversely, Patrick didn’t know that in white culture, Polish people and redheads have stereotypes attached to them. It is amazing how you can live and work next to people your whole life and still know so little about their culture.

          This is why I think people like Bloomberg are reaching the height of arrogance. Black on black crime is a black problem and needs to be solved by the black community. No rich white man is ever going to understand the problem, much less be able to swoop in and fix anything by waving a hand and creating laws.

          Unfortunately, social problems tend to be like that; complex and difficult to frame, much less solve.

        • Here is TTAG, we love to look let the facts speak for themselves. One fact is that there are not more black men in prison than there are in college. That is a myth that keeps being shouted from the rooftops even though it has not been true for many years.

          I am not blaming nor do I condone blaming another race for our problems. I do blame the government for policies put in place. I grew up in the hood(south central los angeles during the late 80s until 2008) with a single mother and graduated with a degree in computer science and engineering from one of the best universities in the world. I also work for one of the largest software companies in the world. I did quite well for myself given the adverse surroundings I was in. I know the only reason I was able to was because of a collective family helping me succeed.

          Not everyone has your same discipline/willpower to resist the temptation of fitting in. I did. but not everyone. It is shortsighted to think that just because you or I made it out everyone can. Speaking on personal experience with South Central, Compton, and Inglewood, California, our educational system is largely to blame for the problems in our areas. You can’t expect people to be upstanding citizens when they can’t even read at 18 years old. You can’t expect them to get decent jobs when they can’t do basic addition, subtraction, and multiplication.

          In terms of black self hatred, it is SOOOOOOOO stupid. But, it isn’t only black people. There are Asians that only go outside when the sun is close to setting because they don’t want to get darker. There are various races bleaching their skin. There are many people that have this belief that the western Caucasian appearance is the highest level of beauty.

          But I digress. Lower income neighborhoods are systematically placed at a disadvantage.

      • @justaman

        I think you nailed one thing – education.

        It’s been said before and it is true that education is the great equalizer. The more honest assessment is done concerning our piss poor public education and the more realistic and rational reform is pursued, the more kids will get a chance in life.

        Unfortunately ST had a good point too – culture can inhibit education and self-betterment. When I was in the Army I had a buddy from long beach who could barely read. Why? His /brother/ would kick his ass if he started acting like he cared about school.

        When your own family is holding you back, what do you do? My answer: get the hell out.

        I believe that trade schools should make a resurgence. I also believe there should be subsidized military schools at least at the high school level. There should also be an easier way to be emancipated or adopted by the state.

        That way kids who are in a bad situation can choose to escape their situation and make a life for themselves rather than find themselves at 18, with no education, no official work experience, and no hope.

        • It is a tough problem to overcome. If and when we fix the education system in lower income areas, it will still take generations for behaviors to change. It is a long play.

          Emancipation is one thing, I wouldn’t want them to become children of the state. My mom was a social worker for 27 years in LA county. A lot of the children in the system are treated poorly and end up repeating the cycle.

          I wish trade schools would make a comeback as well. My cousins are at the age where they are thinking about college. I am trying my best to talk them out of becoming $60K in debt for communications or political science degrees and to go to a trade school and learn to be a mechanic, plumber, contractor, or electrician.

      • How many Black men were splattered on foreign soil, or left limbs and minds there, because the best-paying job available was as cannon fodder?

    • I managed to miss anything about “genetically lazy”, heard instead “seduced into dependence on the government, then imprisoned in ghettos”. Interesting. And race has nothing to do with it, white men have been so seduced as well, but do not have a background of slavery for purposes of comparison.

    • You know ST, I don’t comment much but I read TTAG daily. It seems that every time I read one of your comments, you are saying exactly what I was thinking. Props.

    • “I could see the point if the Feds were shooting at him…”

      Well… Maybe the Feds didn’t start shooting because a few hundred armed “mall ninjas” showed up. The best time to come to someone’s defense is before the bullets start flying.

  5. Bundy has never been the unambiguous hero that many here say he was. My conditional support for him is based on the fact that given a choice between someone who doesn’t recognize the authority of the federal government to collect grazing fees on federal land after receiving due process and a gangster like Harry Reid, I will go with private citizen especially when the feds send an armed force to collect a debt that they could have paid with a lein on his cattle. If anybody thinks that Harry Reid doesn’t agree with Cliven Bundy on this I’ve got some free federal grazing land to led you use. They didn’t call Nevada the Mississippi of the West for nothing.

    And let’s be honest and admit there is a racist strain in the militia movement.

    • I assume you are excluding the conservatives who happen to be black and part of the militia movement? Or did you mean to paint with that broad brush. There may be certain individuals in the militia who are racist but to say that there’s a “strain of racism” is beyond the pale.

      • No, I’ve noticed this too. There is a strain of racism in the militia movement. That’s not to say there isn’t racism in most every other segment of society as well. But it is evident in the militia movement, & since it is prejudicially expected it hits people’s confirmation bias every time it shows itself.

      • I see we have a strain of illiteracy in the comments.

        A strain of racism means that: some militiamen are white racists; some are black racists; some are Muslim supremacists some are not racists at all but to deny that there are racist groups forming militias is naive and disingenuous.
        The bottom line is that the militia movement contains a broad spectrum of people and contains both good and bad groups.

  6. It’s a shame. Bundy’s being attacked via regulation and so his “no legal leg to stand on” issue is largely a case of government wielding their power to legislate our lives to their whims. It’s a bad situation and one that we need to reverse so that what happened to him doesn’t happen to all of us.

    At the same time, we could win this battle and lose the war. We already have a PR problem. People rallied to his defense but he continues to make it difficult to support him. Kind of like that one friend who always picks fights to see if you’ll take a punch for him. After awhile you just have to admit that’s not the kind of “friend” you need.

  7. I agree. If a man’s character is not up to snuff and the way he thinks and the words he uses are uncomfortable for me. . . he deserves no freedom nor defense of any he may have. Let him lick the government boot, no sweat off my brow.

  8. Saying stupid things is not sufficient enough reason to limit someone’s rights in any way. Just because you support his rights to say it doesn’t mean you agree with it.

    • Saying stupid things is an indicator that you’re an idiot and do idiotic things and don’t have a lick of sense.

      Bundy’s case is not clear cut. No objective analysis of his situation can say he is obviously in the right. The BLM is obviously over reacting, but it’s not clear that he didn’t bring this on himself. My impression was that he was a dumb hot head without a lick of sense. He’s now proven this to be an accurate assessment, and so he when there is any doubt about the merit of his claims, the doubt should go against him.

      Shame on TTAG for supporting this racist nut who complains about others mooching off the government when he demands a perpetual right to do the same on a multimillion dollar scale with his cattle.

      • “…Shame on TTAG for supporting this racist nut ”

        Supporting the right to say idiot things is NOT the same as supporting the idiot.

        And shame only works from a parent to child, it is not something you can say to another adult with any effect.

  9. I was immediately soured on the Bundy story the moment Constitution-friendly sheriff said ‘Women & Children First.’
    The liberty/militia movement has deeply, deeply flawed leadership at large. This wasn’t about Bundy. It isn’t now. The militia movement lacks fundamental decent leadership at large. I want to see that addressed.

    • I agree. I hear lots of talk about the 3%r’s. What they forget is the studies that have shown that in addition to the 3% of people actively involved, you need 70% of the “common folk” backing you up. This is one of the reasons I oppose people strapping on AR’s and AK’s, and taking a walk around town just waiting for someone to call the police so they can shoot some video for YouTube. This is NOT how we reach mainstream America. We do it by being responsible gun owners and showing people the truth as opposed to what the MSM tells them. There are some among us who are harming our movement. From some comments, it’s clear that there is a small group that actually hopes for violent confrontation. They will also probably be the first to run and hide, if something truly does happen. Only a fool hopes for war!

      • I’m confused… Do you oppose “people strapping on AR’s and AK’s, and taking a walk around town” or those “just waiting for someone to call the police so they can shoot some video for YouTube” or both? I slightly oppose the latter but fully encourage the former.

        • I oppose it in any area where it is likely to generate a fearful response from the public at large. That may seem like a statement of weakness but I view it as a statement of reality. The truth is we need the support of the general public in our fight for gun rights. We have seen what can happen in some states where public opinion, irrational as it may be, has been swayed to the gun control position. Unfortunately, the current Supreme Court has held that limitations on the 2nd Amendment are allowed. As long as the ruling holds, we have to be very cautious about alienating the masses. Mr and Mrs John Doe of everytown USA, who don’t own guns and watch the MSM see Joe Shmo walking around with an AK on his back and what do they think? Oh, there goes a patriotic American exercising his 2A rights? Not likely. What they see, is that evil assault rifle that they keep seeing on TV. We can educate the public without scaring them. Baby steps, like maybe talking to your neighbors, or even open carrying a handgun will go over much better then a neighborhood stroll with an AK. Just my .02…

        • I oppose it in any area where it is likely to generate a fearful response from the public at large.

          I can’t get a clear sense of your opposition. The question was, do you oppose A, B, or both? I think you are saying both but I can’t be sure.

      • “This is NOT how we reach mainstream America. “

        This is supposition. Do you have data to show that

        (a) open carry does NOT help our position?


        (b) open carry hurts our position?

        This is stated on here a lot…that it hurts our cause. I am unaware of any actual analysis that has been done to support that statement, and thus conclude that it is more of “I disagree with it, so it must be a bad idea.”

        In contrast, there are a lot of areas where the legal situation is moving decidedly pro-gun (or markedly less anti-gun if you prefer). So, it COULD be argued that OC is helping our cause, whether individuals agree with it or not.

        That’s equally supposition. But at least it is one that has some data at least in the ‘suggestive’ category.

        • Can we say that if people open carried every day, people would gradually lose their fearfulness of it?

    • The militia movement lacks fundamental decent leadership at large. I want to see that addressed.

      If you are less flawed then please, by all means, step up to a leadership role. If not, do you know someone who is less flawed and inclined towards true Liberty? If so, then encourage them to step up. I’d love to see good leadership step forward. The reality is that we have who we have right now.

    • The militia movement has a lot of crazies in general. Sovereign citizens, Christian Identity, various neo-Nazi groups etc. The leadership is but a reflection of that.

      • Nobody can lead anybody else to individual Liberty. That was the problem Jesus faced, only it wasn’t recognized at the time. You can follow in whoever’s footsteps you want to, follow whatever leaders on whatever path you deem appropriate for yourself, but the only person who can possibly take that final step to freedom is you – the day that you no longer need any kind of “leader” and you have decided to be the leader of your own life is the day you will know that you are Free.

  10. He has first amendment rights doesn’t he? The right to have a ignorant opinion. That doesn’t preclude him from having 2nd amendment rights or any other rights set forward by the constitution. I am pretty sure we can dig up lots of dirt on the left or the government to make his statements pale in comparison. He isn’t a saint, but he is an example of what the government can do to anyone.

    • His First Amendment rights (to proclaim himself an idiot) are protected: The government won’t silence him…unfortunately for him and those who sympathized with him.
      The First Amendment does not protect him in the court of public opinion.
      He’s now radioactive.
      On Monday, the L.A. Times said those sympathetic to his situation were “neo-Confederate rednecks.” (I believe that was a lame slur by a writer who lacked intellectual ammunition, but it sure seems prescient now.),0,1467054.story#vcomment

      • Wasn’t he doomed already? Unlike the spindoctors of campaigns, we don’t go around picking martyrs to the cause. They were going to dig up something on him sometime, he just made it easy. This is just a distraction because the Empire’s attempts to blow up Hoth were delayed. They have to rebuild the Deathstar for another attempt.

  11. I’d like to know the rest of his words and the context. I’m not sure he was glorifying slavery so much as condemning the current state of welfare and the generations of dependence it has caused among certain communities, one being the black community.

    Just a couple of articles on the matter

    • Yeah I get that too. Even though he said it rather “poorly”, it might be more in line with what I always say “The Democrat Party has been and continues to be the party of slavery. The only difference is the current plantation is run by big, bloated government.”

    • He was trying to convey they were slaves to the welfare program without direction, vocation, or a nuclear family. I watched the video and it does not appear he intended to be racist but tried to make a point about Federal support destroying the black family.

      • Hmm… From that video, it sounded to me that he cares about the people he saw living in government bondage. Opposite of what some are trying to infer from his words; it appears to me that he would like to see them more free and happy (ala Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness) than he would actually like to see them in slavery. I don’t get from the video that he is truly pro-slavery at all!

        Thank you for posting it.

        • This is the major media trying to condemn what happened and paint the guy as racist. Is he an eloquent speaker? No. Is he articulate in the way he’s trying to make his point? No.

          The fact that “public opinion” decides reality just further uncovers the hideousness of our technological hive mind culture that we have now. Lies travel around the planet before truth has the chance to put on it’s boots.

          Say what you will about Alex Jones but at least he interviews Cliven directly and sets it straight. The guy is not racist. If you care to listen to the end he talks about having a black militia man in his home sharing his food and whatnot. He talks about everyone, regardless of color being the same and being loved by God the same. Not the words of a racist bigot by any means…this is the public getting duped by the agenda driven media once again and everyone has taken the bait. The government elite wants to divide and conquer us any way they can. Black/White/Latino/Asian, Republican/Democrat, Christian/Muslim/Atheist, Male/Female, Gay/Straight, etc. etc. A house divided cannot stand.

          If/When liberty minded folks ever realize that if they can just cooperate and unite on the one thing we all want: less government/more freedom, then we can peacefully choose whom to associate with or not in a truly free society. Until then enjoy being slaves, cuz that’s what we all are and that’s just where the elite rulers want us.

        • Excellent post, Rainhaven. I had written a reply right after Cyrano posted the video but it got swallowed up by the interwebz. Basically, my take on the video was not of a man who hated a race of people or of specific ethnicity. Rather, I heard a man who had great compassion in that he did not want to see people suffer needlessly.

        • I didn’t make a value call on public opinion. All I did was state a fact which is still true.

          I don’t much care for it either – the most serious example being how people are tried via public opinion and the medial in the case of high profile crimes.

    • Isn’t the issue that the media will use him to link bigotry and the militia (which has been media code for gun rights), and further influence people not in our camp or on the fence to move away from us? To say nothing of the fact that the more “extreme” the gun rights movement looks, the easier it is to legislate against our right?

      My point, really, is that it doesn’t matter whether what he is saying is genuinely relevant to guns — all that matters is that he is saying things that will, without a doubt, be used effectively against us. And that’s why a lot of gun rights people are pissed at him…he’s injected a very poisonous issue into an unrelated matter and opened the door to a narrative that people will embrace.

  12. I fear the overreach of the federal govt too and its abuses, but Bundy is nothing more than a fraud and freeloader, and apparently a racist too. Try not paying your taxes for 20 years and see what happens, especially when you brandish your AR when the IRS shows up. Any missteps by this “posse” will be used to impugn all gun owners … the antis love to paint with a broad brush and call us all wackos and latent or potential criminals and terrorists.

    • No matter what you do the enemy will paint you in the worst way. You can’t change what they think. Prove he is a freeloader and a fraud. The government changed the rules of doing business that would have driven him out of business and then they expected him to comply. Where is it ok to pull the rug out beneath someone on a contract and call it justice. You have too much faith in the BLM.

  13. Unreal man, just unreal. I still support him on the BLM issue, but if that’s how he feels about black people then he’s probably SOL. This was a hearts and minds thing and he just lost the game. I will admit that I strongly believe in Mr. Bundy’s right to proclaim his thoughts out loud no matter how offensive I find them, but I don’t think I’ll be associating with him any time soon.

  14. So we have a litmus test now for freedom? If you violate the PC rules of the day you lose your freedom? Nope.

    There is this thingy about being a person under the Constitution having rights protected. Nowhere did I read in said document that you have to be a nice person. Have to be an agreeable person. Have to be articulate or good natured person.

    I sure hope the militia don’t tuck tail and run cause Mr. Bundy upset some folks. Heck, I listen to Don Imus for 2 minutes and I’m spitting mad at that miserable sack of excrement. But I don’t want to remove any of his rights. There was this guy long ago who said something about “as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers….”

    • I agree that he has the right to say what he did, but calling it a PC issue is not being honest. Being a racist isn’t just a “PC” violation.

      • I don’t know what article you read, but the “racist” quote in RF’s post didn’t bother me. Not even a smidgen. He described a situation where the urban ghetto-ized black population (Democrats mostly responsible for that btw) have been culturally destroyed by gov’t subsidies. THAT IS RACIST? And the reference to slavery you can’t possibly think that he wants blacks to be in slavery again? Please. That is clearly a rhetorical riff. You can’t be that blind.

        You actually prove my point. This country has been so brainwashed with PC crap that anytime a white man speaks in ANY WAY about blacks, then those words are racist. He is a racist. He needs to be purged from society. Jesse Jackson can speak not of Jewish culture but with gutter terms for Jews and that is ok. Al Sharpton can incite blacks to kill whites but that is ok. Bundy speaks a truthful statement of FREAKING FACT and the world is going to end. Sorry but I can read. I can think for myself. Bundy is absolutely right.

      • Depends, as usual, on definitions. Racist speech is in fact a PC issue. Racist actions are not. You can say anything you want, but you may be ostracized if it is not PC. Racist actions can get you imprisoned or shot.

  15. OMG serious? No mention of this before huh? Sure glad I didn’t latch on to his cause.

    That’s some deep-seeded racism brah. So racist, he doesn’t even know he’s being racist. So wrong, he doesn’t even know he’s wrong. His cause is now in the toilet, I hate to say it. Is Yeager gonna run back out there now to defend him now?

    No, this doesn’t make the Feds case right, but it sure does make Bundy wrong.

  16. Jeez they must have stood by that one guy on the bridge ALL DAMN DAY takin pictures of him.

    As long as racial politics are openly played, it cant ever be anything but Us vs. Them, although thats what the statists want want, easier to make a large amount of people seem like a “minority” that way.

    • Love to see time stamps on those photos, it would not surprise me to find they were all taken within 2 minutes, did you see the crowd taking them?

  17. I love how the general assumption is that it’s only Blacks and Latinos receiving welfare. It would probably blow his mind if he knew what the real numbers are.

  18. There is truth in what he says and I don’t believe his remarks make him a racist. I don’t know what the context of the comment was but I have wondered similar things. I was watching a History Channel show about slavery and I thought to myself “what happened to such a beautiful, hard-working, religious, family oriented, determined people with a such a strong culture?” And in thinking of my father’s Mexican American heritage, I have wondered the same. Why are my people so willing to be mediocre? What happened to the work ethic and the beauty of their heritage? I believe the government has funded mediocrity, criminal activity, and a sense of entitlement with their welfare systems. It is ruining entire groups of people and it is causing those of us who pay taxes to become very upset.

    • “what happened to such a beautiful, hard-working, religious, family oriented, determined people with a such a strong culture?”

      Their families were broken up when the white master would sell the strong young buck down the river to make a profit. Then the woman would get raped by the master her owned her as chattel property, and the children, themselves slaves, would be made house servants. Meanwhile the ones working in the fields would work until they dropped, be whipped, starved, chained. All to have the money from their efforts go to enriching their masters.

      Sorry, am I pissing all over your antebellum fantasy?

      • You’re just showing your pissy ignorance you little ant.

        There was a strong black culture that existed in spite of the hardships of slavery. It had strong family & religious values & lasted well into the twentieth century, still being incredibly evident on through the civil rights movement. That culture has dramatically declined since.

      • Don’t forget the people coldly murdered in transit on the ocean so the captains of the slave ships could “balance their loads”.

        While the past is the past , we must acknowledge that institutional slavery was nothing less then a human holocaust of epic proportions.

      • So what’s your take on the blacks that owned slaves? Not all whites raped their slaves, nor were all slaves sold, the ones that were, most of them were still allowed to maintain contact with their families. I understand most people see movies like Django and 12 years a slave but those were the exception not the rule.

        • Not to forget that a number of Indian tribes took and held slaves. And some landholding Cherokees had black slaves.

        • Just to piggy-back on what William said, slavery has been practiced since the dawn of mankind, since Og and Maggog. The Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Vikings, all the Muslim countries, Ottoman Turks, Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, all the tribes of Africa, countries in Asia, Native Americans, England and other Western European nations, basically EVERYONE IN HUMAN HISTORY has practiced slavery at one time or another and slavery is still practiced to this very day by the Muslims of North Africa against the animists and Christians of Africa. Sexual slavery is also a huge problem throughout the world…yet it is only every mentioned and only ever wielded as a cudgel against white Americans. Now why is that? Are any of the other instances of slavery being practiced any less horrible? Of course not.

          I’m awful tired of people attempting to saddle me with the actions of others which were done hundreds of years ago. Frankly nothing is more Un-American than laying the sins of the father at the feet of his descendents, and even more so when the vast majority of Americans’ ancestors never even owned slaves. If that’s the case then every single American today is guilty since every country in history has practiced slavery at some point in time.

          It’s time for people to take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming others for their circumstances.

  19. So, when is TTAG and the NYTimes going to publish the frankly racist statement? Although I don’t necessarily believe that his observations are specific to “the Negro” (his choice of word, not mine); I read a surprisingly deep thought from an elderly American rancher. Sure, he stereotyped but I’m not convinced that it was blatantly racist. If that is the case then, please, stop quoting all of those old white guys who founded this nation… ’cause they were, by today’s standard, far more racist than Bundy’s statement indicates he might be. I’ve even heard many statements over the years from older gun owning men, irrespective of race or ethnicity, that were light years more ‘racist’ than Bundy’s. Because my skin is light and my Heinz57 pedigree gives multiple ethnic groups phenotype traits to assume that I and my offspring are ‘one of them’ (i.e. they saw what they wanted to see); I’ve heard a lot… perhaps too much. Let’s all live in reality instead of pretending the unwashed masses that comprise gun owners in America aren’t a blemished people; not unlike most any other social grouping. Above all, I fight for anyone’s right to be think as they see fit. I support a racist’s right hold a racist’s view and speak of things ‘racist’; be they Louis Farrakhan or my beloved Israeli immigrant Uncle Joe (may he rest in peace). Bundy is an elderly rancher, not a politician. Replace “the Negro” with “extremely impoverished Americans” and I’d tend to agree more with his statement than disagree with it.

    • Being racist back in 18th century was the norm – they didn’t know better (well, some did, but very few and far between). Being racist in 2014 takes some deliberate effort.

      And yes, the use of “Negro” alone is deeply offensive to many people, not to mention the entire slavery angle.

      • There are people in 2014 that still don’t grasp the ramifications of what those founders put to paper. There is nothing new under the Sun and the people of today may have more technical knowledge but I dispute that they are in any way advanced in reason over those at the founding of this nation. I’ve heard many old guys (white, black, brown, yellow, and red) say far worse than “Negro” today as I’m sure people did back in the day.

        Look, I was in DC at a rally and was explaining to some woman how the restrooms were all closed off. I told her that a kindly homeless gentleman had just informed me. She was indignant that I used the term “homeless”! She said, “I can’t believe you used THAT term!” Give me a break. Please, If you want PC then don’t talk to me. 😉 I’m polite but there is a limit.

      • I can remember when “Colored” was the term that was frowned upon, and “Negro” was the PC term, then “Negro” fell out of favor, replaced by “Black,” which has been superseded by “African-American.” And I thought the point of the equality movement was to make skin color irrelevant?

        • I will never in my life say, “African American”.

          The term makes no sense to me and I have far too much respect for black people to call them something that I feel is offensive.

        • You forgot the hipster favorite, “spade”. I’ve also heard Jews call black people “schwartzes”.

  20. The whole BLM fiasco has been going on for over 30yrs. Focus on Bundy was only done because of the militia otherwise like many other stories about the BLM, it would have received no press. This is also not the first time the BLM came with helicopters and men with guns, although it may be the first time many of us are hearing about the situation. See this link for a good history:

    The Shoshone Indian tribe has been fighting the BLM for 30 years. They have a more legitimate claim than Bundy as the BLM has taken cattle on tribal land because the SCOTUS ruled that Federal Govt. keep land in trust for the tribes and thus the BLM can whatever they want.

    Nobody, no militia has come to the rescue of the Shoshone Indian tribes land.

    The one and only reason this made any press is because of “guns” on both sides.

    As in all arguments, there are two sides but the press will present ONLY the side they care about and which they believe will sell more papers. Facts are forgotten, a history of the conflict is ignored but the chance to demonize gun owner — whoohoo! we have a winner!

    Bundy, is not a hero but his plight does show the extent of government over reach.
    Bundy, is probably not an elegant speaker either, while he used the words “slaves” — one of the words that shall never be used — he was rightly talking about how the inner city is treated. They have created a culture of dependence and in many cases have crushed souls and has made them believe that there is no way out except via the government — which will continued to screw them.

    No, no Bundy is not the hero we may want as gun owners, but he is has shed light on government over reach that has been happening for 30yrs — and while the words he used sucked — there is no denying what government has done to the inner city.

  21. In my mind, this isn’t about Bundy at all, but ensuring that the Federal government is put back in its proper place.

    • Told what? That every man is flawed and he wasn’t a complete victim of the complex situation at hand but the BLM clearly overstepped it’s oversight along with the Federal Government? Oh thanks, I think the rest of us got that.

    • Exactly. Sad that TTAG jumped on this bandwagon. This guy’s fight with BLM had nothing to do with guns in the first place.

  22. Eh, so he’s racist. Racism is alive and well in the US. I don’t consider him the peoples’ champion, but I do respect him standing up to the BLM. I’ve been the victim of racism as a straight, white man. Gun owners are automatically considered to be racists by the mainstream media. Racism is ignorance, and I don’t care to associate with ignorant people.

    I’m far less concerned with racism than I am with the massive expansion of the federal government.

    • “Gun owners are automatically considered to be racists by the mainstream media.”

      And Bundy just played right into that stereotype.

      “Racism is ignorance, and I don’t care to associate with ignorant people.”

      Agreed, x100. Which is unfortunate because now the gun community is tainted by association for backing up Bundy.

      “I’m far less concerned with racism than I am with the massive expansion of the federal government.”

      The BLM wasn’t in the right, but I doubt Bundy’s recent comments are going to make his resistance appear in a positive light. And for people who happen to be gun owners AND people of color, the ugliness of racism is one of those things that if you’re non-white, you always have to be wary of. I have friends who are gun owners and who are black and they LAUGH at the idea of being a black man open carrying a pistol or rifle.

  23. Time out folks! Where’s the video? Where’s the audio recording? A “press conference” consisting of one, ONE NY Times reporter? Am I the only one here who smells a rat? I read the article 3 times. There is no link. So here we have the word of Adam Nagourney that Cliven said those things. When I looked there were 318 comments on the article in the NYT. No link. But it did have the desired effect. The seed has been planted and is bearing fruit even here.

  24. Not the best choice of words but the meaning is spot on. “Never learned to pick cotton” translate to never took on any responsibility to get a job. “Slave” translate to dependent on taxpayer to feed them. The gist of what he said is the absolute truth and one of the problems with certain segments of our society. The way he said it, pure ignorance. However it sounds much like any old 80+ year old rural farmer in many parts of the country.

  25. And this is why you choose your battles wisely.

    As for the idea Bundy should be defended regardless of his views, where was the militia when government forces were tear gassing G8 protesters in Seattle and roughing up Occupy protesters in Oakland? If the ultimate problem really is excessive force and government corruption, then militias should have been in those place in droves. In fact, you can pretty well guarantee excessive force will be used at the next U.S.-based G7 meeting. What are the chances a militia shows up?

    • Your answers are in who was doing the roughing up and what they were protesting.

      I don’t think you would get a response from the militia since the causes you mention run contrary to militias stated purpose. To defend liberty.

      Not defend a bunch of slackers and hippies with a socialist agenda.

      • So what was Bundy’s cause? Being able to continue his exclusive, for-profit use of public land on terms he alone got to set? I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts that if you had tried to “share” Bundy’s public grazing land with your own cattle, he would have pointed a gun right at you.

        I’m beginning to think the number one reason Bundy got support from the militia is the way he dresses. The whole thing looks like a bunch of superficial BS.

        • Maybe you should do some research on land rights and grazing rights before you jump into the deep end.

      • Last I checked, in this country I have the freedom to be a socialist or a slacker. Are you saying my right to be a slacker is not worth defending like other freedoms because it doesn’t match your litmus test of what freedom is?

        • Seriously?

          The question was why the militia didn’t turn out to help the Occupy or GB protests.

          Both the occupy movement and G8 protestors agenda are based on big government, wealth redistribution, environmental concerns, and entitlements. Essentially socialism.

          The militia exists to defend the constitution, individual liberties and the constitutional republic, pretty much everything the occupy movement and environmentalists hate.

          So while the militia would absolutely defend your right to be a slacker. What they wont defend is your idea that you can be a slacker and be paid by the state to do so.

        • Funny, considering that the militia in the Bundy case were opposing the Constitution of the US and the Nevada state constitution. The only point they might have there is that they’re for individual liberties, but then, so is Occupy and the G8 protesters.

  26. Bundy really needs to stay on message about the government abuse regarding his property and their policies. Nobody asked for his opinion on race matters, and it will definately erode his support when push comes to shove. The federal government is the problem here, but nobody is going to stand for being associated with someone who sounds like a klansman.

  27. I friggin told you we didn’t want to tie our cause to his, RF!

    And people who say ‘what? how is that racist?’ can kiss my white behind. “The Negro” “Better off as slaves”?? Serious??

    And people who say: oh just cause he’s not PC means doesn’t have any rights now? = Stupid illogical non-sequitur. Of course he does. They didn’t throw him in jail for being an ignorant old-timer racist, and no, it doesn’t make the Government’s case right, but it sure does make Bundy ‘wrong’ – in so many ways, that it becomes all but impossible to support him.

    And I don’t feel like going back and forth on this so whatever. That’s some racist shit brah. You can’t justify that other than yeah, he’s an old-timer. I get it. But that shit aint cool at all. Black people were NOT better off as slaves and any suggestion of such is quite a bit more than insulting. They are an integral part of our society just like Italians or Asians or any other ethnic group. They are our friends, teachers, neighbors, co-workers, police. They are us. Americans. So Eff U Bundy, you old time racist bird. Stay out in the desert where you belong bro. The world moved on.

      • Good call. If he didn’t say that, then the reporter saying that he did should be tarred and feathered, to say the least.

        • It would be proper for the journalist and possibly the paper to be sued in civil court. Tar and feathers? Not so much. The reporter and publisher have the right to free speech too. If they knowingly misrepresented Bundy’s statement then it is a civil matter and not a criminal one, IMHO. I defend their right to be idiots too.

  28. I never unconditionally supported Bundy. I was highly offended at the BLM snipers, shutting down free speech & protecting stupid turtles. That aspect hasn’t changed.
    Using the word “negro” immediately informs ME that Cliven Bundy is a racist old asshole. It’s his right to say that. There is NO simple answer to the left painting gun owners as redneck racists. Some are. Once again from an evil old white man married to a beautiful black woman.

  29. I disagree with rf in the sense that I believe that this is not a complicated story. Mr bundy does not now or never did own this land. I don’t believe that the BLM or the federal government is necessarily a monster and it embarrasses me to read some of these comments. Oh, and please Nick, enough about the SIG pistol brace.

    • So federal marksmen pointing rifles at citizens on a public roadway is good with you, too? Because they did it in this case.

      How about federal agents taking a man into custody without probable cause for arrest, holding him several hours and THEN making up a charge (akin to ‘disturbing the peace’) to justify it? That’s a FELONY in some states (for a cop to make an arrest without providing PC and the charge at the time of arrest). The feds did that in this case.

      Or, I guess you are also good with the feds posting “First Amendment Zone” signs to tell you where your Constitutional Rights are in effect vs where they are not? Because they did that, too.

      This situation was about so much more than Bundy, his cows, who owns the land vs who doesn’t, though all of those matter (and are far more complex than you have stated in your comment).

  30. What a shitfest TTAG is now. Why is everyone so conditioned to pretend that they are “offended” at Bundy saying something the sheep consider to be ” racist”? How does his comment “taint” the “militia”?

    • You might want to check out Stormfront, it may be more to your liking. You can say “Negro” there all day long!

  31. My God, the first article from TTAG acknowledging Cliven Bundy is not the patron saint we should all be backing blindly? About time! I called it from the beginning ( Bundy’s facts are incorrect and his entire premise for the standoff amounts to one man’s personal quest on individuality – not government tyranny or land rights. Plus the militias didn’t help either ( Took a while but people are starting to realize this isn’t the flashpoint they were expecting.

  32. Yes, this is a complicated case. And someone as bat-shit crazy as Bundy destroys our side’s many excellent arguments embedded in this ranch’s troubles…

  33. I’ve said this before and I will say it again. This NYT article, the comments by Reid and the spin from the MSM is seeding the narrative for when Bundy and his supporters are rounded up. The nearly certain slaughter that will result will be justified because the dangerous gun nut-cowboy-religious freak-deadbeat-racist-domesticterrorist wouldn’t submit.

    Bundy has a massive set of brass balls that I admire but he is not the brightest bulb on the tree. Tying our 2A rights to his cause is a loosing position.

  34. One line and you are ready to crucify bundy.

    You are as bad as the racists on the other side of the coin.

    I will say two things:

    God loves us all

    That idle hands are the devils work shop.

    Get a grip.

  35. Character assassination by the government is to be expected in an attempt to marginalize Bundy’s victory. First of all, Bundy’s “press conference.” “It drew one reporter and one photographer.” When that one reporter and photographer is from the New York Times do we really know what Bundy said? The New York Times is not credible news source, it is a propaganda arm. Second, Bundy is not important because of his opinions about race or other social wedge issues, but because he told the federal government to pound sand and the BLM backed down. An old rancher might have some unpopular opinions and expressed them badly? This is my shocked face. Harry Reid says stupid, ugly sh*t everyday in Senate and he literally does represent people. Let’s not get distracted by the latest squirrel a “reporter” dreams up.

  36. This whole movement has just lost the sympathy of lots of people outside the USA who are your comrades in the fight for the right to bear arms and to self protection all because this racist bastard’s ignorance and stupidity.

    Seriously, I’m all for 2A even if I’m not American but nothing scares me more than a big racist with a bunch of friends with tons of guns. Racism is not the lesser evil.

    This is a disaster. Someone better step up to the plate. He brings a lot of shame to the good gunnies.

    • The reality is that racists also own guns. How to you propose my nation go about changing that other than disarming everyone they deem racist? Fair weather support is no support at all.

      The lessor of two evils is not at stake; Liberty is! Since you aren’t from here perhaps you don’t realize that freedom includes the right to be a racist and say racist things. It’s unfortunate that these things scare you. You’re probably better off not being free anyway then.

      True Liberty IS a scary thing and not for the faint of heart. 😉

      • The points you make here are truly profound.

        I mentioned the other day to my children that the “price” of liberty is responsibility, including the responsibility to share that liberty in ways that get uncomfortable. Sometimes that is a very hard row to hoe.

        • Aye, sometimes a very hard row. I’ve raised four of my own and influenced countless other children as to the true nature and necessity of Liberty. Thank you for raising yours with truth and wisdom. Also, thank you for the kind words.

  37. Some people don’t know when to quit while they’re ahead…I don’t care what Bundy “thinks”, it’s when the filter between brain(questionable) and mouth goes awry is when my support starts to wane…

    Bundy had it made, had the support of a nation, and like all before him, came out and said something so ignorant and, so offensive, the only support he’ll get now is from hardcore KKK and like groups…

  38. I don’t support him mainly because he is breaking the law, and it is not a complicated law or something. It is simple trespassing.

    • And yet there is a huge body of scholarship that disagrees with you…it’s not simple at all. It’s not even clear what he was doing was TRESPASSING, because there are questions about who actually ‘owns’ the land.

  39. Racism is not the lesser evil!

    It cannot be tolerated in any form. I hope he Is jailed for his statements. Cotton picking eh?

    How shameful. He is a stain on good gunnies in the USA. I hope Corlion Noir kicks his ass with his usual eloquence.

    Im not American but many like me support 2A and the freedom and right to defense. However this ignorant bastard makes me instantly hostile to the thought of a racist with a bunch of friends who have guns.

    Someone break his jaw please.

    • Sure as soon as you are done breaking the jaw of Reverend Al’s, Jesse Jackson, and the myriad of other “black pundits” who are more racist than Mr. Bundy.

      Also as soon as any of the feral black youth beating people simply because they are white are prosecuted for hate crimes, I’m on board.

      Racism isn’t just a white thing.

    • Fair weather support is no support at all. Liberty includes the freedom to be a racist and say racist things. If that scares you then perhaps it’s better that you not be free. True Liberty requires a certain level of forbearance and intestinal fortitude.

    • Freedom of speech. This includes the freedom to make offensive and otherwise disgusting statements.

      I would like to remind that USA is one of the few Western countries that has an active Nazi party (not just in ideology, but actually referring to themselves as such). That’s because protection of political speech in USA is unmatched with any other country in the world. And that is how it should be.

      • Of course the First Amendment covers the right to say stupid and offensive things. Like it or not though, we’re judged by the words that reflect or sum up our beliefs, and he just destroyed any credibility he had, however slim, with many people. If he’s trying to win a battle of hearts and minds to his “cause” (however weak) he’s just shot himself in the head.

        • You assume that he is even might want to “win hearts and minds.” IMHO, such worry is a waste of time and will bear little meaningful fruit under certain circumstances. If I were Bundy, I probably wouldn’t give a damn about “hearts and minds.” Indeed, in regards to Liberty, I don’t.

  40. Aside from people perceiving a racist tone in his remarks, the question should be answered. Are people today better off being owned by government subsidies or were they better off living as they did in the past beholden to those who gave them work? When it comes right down to it the questions is, Are those who accept government handouts any less the slave than they were to plantation owners?

    This is a very personal and provocative perception by many. It is my opinion that whosoever “gives” you something very often wants something in return and that something may be held around your neck forever thus making you a slave in fact if not in name.

    Such is the condition of the American welfare system today. How do we make it better?

    • Answers to your questions:

      People are better off receiving government subsidies than they were being someone else’s personal property that could be bought, sold, whipped, raped, etc.

      People who accept government handouts are much less the slave than real slaves were. They don’t have owners who can buy, sell, whip, or rape them. In fact, if they choose to, they can learn to read legally, own guns, travel on their own, and even get off welfare. Many in fact do all these things.

      You should spend time being owned by someone else.

      • What, you’ve tried it? You state your ideas as irrefutable fact, when they are not. Who else do we know who employs that tactic? Try discussing rather than proclaiming, unless you have the halo to back it up.


        • Anyone in a sane mind should be able to apply both hypothetical situations to oneself and reach the same conclusion. It doesn’t take a PhD.

    • The comparison is false.

      Welfare is NOT slavery. Perhaps bad economic policy. But there’s a vast difference between accepting a government handout, and being a victim of an international business whose job description involves the systematic, routine, and consistent murder , rape, and pillaging of an entire society of people. One may as well compare welfare to the Jewish Holocaust.

      • Philosophically, I disagree. It doesn’t matter if it is slavery of intent or unintentions, or slavery of the mind or body, or slavery by the government or corporation. The degree of circumstances may change, but the result is always the same. The individual is sacrificed at the alter of collectivism.

    • But he’s a “racist” for asking the same question. I swear, people, you’re so quick to judge and misjudge, you’re like little media pop-up toys.

  41. Wait a second, all we have for “proof” that Clive Bundy is racist is the word of a single NYT news reporter? That’s pretty damn flimsy.

    • ..Hey Bill….you and The Bear…. just can’t get your head around someone trying to do something based upon “principle”….and you are dead wrong about the date issue…and you and the government’s corrupt media are using a dissimilar, not-necessarily related real-estate transaction in the fifties in order to make your claims…. Bundy has said that his family “settled” and “worked” the land since 1877…as was/is allowed under Nevada Law and their relationship with the corrupt Federal Government….having worked for the corrupt federal government for 24 years…I recognize disinformation and government trolling when I see it…

      Let me ask you…when you and The Bear head off to the bank to cash your government troll checks…do you clean up your own trail of slime…or do you expect the taxpayers to foot the bill? You people disgust
      me …. you deserve every bit of government oppression, death and destruction that is coming down the pike…you cowards have earned it..

      RJ O’Guillory
      Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

      RJ O’Guillory

      • Hey RJ are you as much of a thief as Bundy? He’s cheated taxpayers out of hundreds of thousands of dollars of SUBSIDIZED grazing fees. Sounds like you’re just another whacko who lives off the government trough.

        • …sorry son…I worked for US DoD for over two decades, all over the world… and stood up against every corrupt, thieving plan they could muster…so I am now retired…and living on the pension that I created, planned for and insisted upon when the corrupt chumps tied to fire me for reporting corruption that could have cost thousands of lives…so nice try…but your slime won’t stick to me…


        • Hey RJ – I’m x airborne infantry.

          How dare some x government bureaucrat puke insinuate I am a statist the dole.

          How. Dare. You.

          You may not agree with my views, you might think I’m an idiot, but don’t EVER call my patriotism into question.


          I gave up the best years of my life for this country. I /earned/ my opinions.

          Take your self righteousness and stuff it, please.

        • So…. you are saying *I* was supposed to get some of that Bundy feller’s money? That’s a SCREAM!!

      • They figure they’re on the winning side. How can they not know that they will be turned upon as soon as they have outlived their usefulness?

  42. My guess is the guy’s just like my dad, an old guy from another time that just never joined the 21st century. My dad puts his foot in his mouth constantly, and furthermore he doesn’t care anymore. It’s like he feels as though just because he’s lived to be a certain age it is his right to be an *sshole. You find people like that everywhere, the way through it is to never take them seriously because they’re clowns in their second childhood.

    I think the government handled this very well indeed and I thank them for their restraint. This could have blown up into something nobody wants. In a time when all we hear about are trigger-happy public servants it’s soothing to see some prudence on the part of the state.

    • “I think the government handled this very well indeed and I thank them for their restraint. “

      Nice to know you agree with 4th Amendment violations and threat of deadly force against citizens showing no imminent threat nor having ability, opportunity or jeopardy to inflict harm on another.

      Yep, the government was good to go this time… {<— sarcasm}

  43. His quote smacks of insensitivity, but the racism part could easily be a misinterpretation of a poorly worded phrase.
    Don’t know the man.
    Not siding with him on this, just lamenting the world we currently live in a little bit.

  44. Has anyone considered that, as is frequent in the realm of the press, that he has been slandered? What we are seeing is 1 article from a venue that is very much so outspoken on our second amendment rights as well as anyone or any group that defies what their views are.

    There are no audio or video of Bundy making these statements. Don’t you think if these statements were true there would be audio recordings of this blasted on all the major news networks? Especially considering how journalists love getting their names in the spotlight.

  45. Gentlemen:

    I have my doubts about the entire Bundy Ranch debacle – – there are definite flaws in Mr. Bundy’s reasoning regarding his control of the grazing land, and the truth of the matter is difficult to discern. That being said, boiling the matter down to it’s basic elements: it is a battle between a free man (an American citizen) and the Federal Bureaucracy (note, I did not say American Government because the monstrosity of bureaucracy is not our legitimate Government) – – and that Bureaucracy went to extraordinary ends to boot stomp this free man for reasons that are, at the very least, highly suspicious. On that basis alone, this is a battle worth fighting.

    However, if the statements attributed to Mr. Bundy are accurate, he is clearly a racist – – and he is dumbfoundingly foolish about it. Make no mistake, in modern America, there is now no greater sin than racism, and this man’s foolishness will be used by the Media (and by Mr. Reid) to tar all who stand with him.

    That being said, my grandfather was a racist – – he was probably in the vicinity of a bus burning – – he was also a free man, a true American, a veteran and a man worthy of his salt – – if he were alive and the Federal Bureaucracy were bullying him out of his farm, I would be there with a gun, racist or no.

    Most of our Founding Fathers were, by the modern measure, racists – – does it make their greatest act, the founding of a republic of free men, invalid? Abraham Lincoln was most certainly a racist – – does it make the Emancipation Proclamation any less worthy? While many, if not most, Progressives would argue “yes,” wiser men must realize that a man’s work is not defined by his personal flaws but by what he accomplishes. And frankly, the times choose the man – – the man does not choose his time.

    Brothers, I am afraid the times are about to choose us. If so, Americans will not stand with Cliven Bundy – – we will stand with and for a Republic of Free Men against a Fascist State. We are all Bundy now, warts and all.

  46. The antis love to claim the First Amendment as an absolute right until someone says something they don’t like. It’s going to be interesting to see their reaction to this.

    • It’s MEDIA MATTERS! George Soros. If anything, they’re WORSE than the New York Times. MM is so liberal they’d make Hubert Humphrey look like George Lincoln Rockwell.

  47. All I am saying is that I think it is not below the NYT to push an article like this. Paint the man that stood up for himself against the government with armed assistance as a racist. That way the people that are watching at home are more likely to see the bad man they couldn’t show initially when the BLM first came on the scene.

    Public opinion is what allows governments to succeed or fail. Don’t forget that. If the government can’t find a way to show they were right in way they handled the situation in Bunkerville they will have to find a way to show how he is wrong to regain public opinion.

  48. It’s a fake argument the media is trying to make. The struggle isn’t Bundy vs. the Feds, as the media wishes to frame it. The struggle is the individual vs. Govt overreach. It’s the rule of law vs. the rule of men.

    • So you support the Feds in this. The law was on their side. They just chose to enforce it in a thuggish manner. They had his cattle and as it turns out they could have sold them off fto pay for the debt and still returned Bundy some money.

    • How is it government overreach in this case? (and believe me, I am on alert for that all the time). Most of the other ranchers there have paid their grazing fees and think Bundy is a freeloader too. It’s BLM land, and you pay to play—like it or not. If you don’t like it, graze on your own damn land. He is a fraud, and is trying to dupe people (and on some it’s working) that he’s some sort of “Code of the West” libertarian hero. BS. Here’s a guy who claims he doesn’t even recognize the federal gubmint (hellooooooo?), but he’s riding around parading the American flag.

      Now, I’m not saying the BLM or the Feds always play nice or fair, as they don’t, but this case seems pretty clear.

      • …sorry dude….you failed to mention that Bundy’s family have been on that land for 140 years … long before any BLM came into existence…you have no idea that there is no legislation backing up the BLM…it is simply an agency that was tasked with managing the lands the Fed already owned…it is not missioned to go out and steal Nevada’s property…which is who Bundy has paid his fees to…(or is willing to)…you also failed to mention the forced theft of 55 other ranchers in the area in order to make way for the Corrupt Senator Reid’s treason with the Chinese in development of their Solar Farm…and the mineral/gas/oil rights that the federal government want to use as collateral for their useless, corrupt bonds that they have sold the Chinese…and other investors around the world…I cannot believe people on this site who think that the federal government going out and pointing sniper rifles at US Citizens … over a cattle/land dispute…(actually government corruption dispute)…I can’t believe you trolls are willing to give up on everyone’s liberty…so that you can have a job sitting at a computer trying to dis-inform readers…what a government shill…

        RJ O’Guillory
        Webster Groves – The Life of an Insane Family

        • Turns out that story was a lie. His parents bought the ranch in 1951. Most of the other family history is a fabrication as well.

        • Noting Bill’s comment below, Bundy’s family never owned the land he was charged grazing fees for. Before it was taken over by the government it was open range, nobody owned it.

      • WHAT “other ranchers”? THERE AREN’T ANY. They’ve all been driven off the land by the Mighty BLM. Bundy is the last.

        So that “other ranchers” baloney? You just made that up.

  49. Key lesson, here, folks: WATCH WHAT YOU SAY TO THE PRESS!

    At this point, I wouldn’t bet either way that Bundy said what he said (verbatim) or that the NYT reporter “re-interpreted” what he REALLY said to fit what that reporter was expecting to find. I’ve seen far too many times where the reporter “massaged” comments until they fit the “Narrative” defined by the editorial bosses back in NYC.

  50. In a situation like this, image is everything.

    Bundy had the moral high ground in this dispute…and he just pissed it away. Period.

    • What moral high ground? Dipshit was breaking the law for years and grazing his cattle for free. All he did was almost start a gunfight with the Feds.

      • I have no idea where you get your information, but you should stop.

        Oh. You get your “information” from the BLM. Another government troll.

    • The New York Times has that much sway with you? The man made a horribly phrased analogy comparing government handouts to slavery. But the meat of his argument is not beyond the pale. EW Jackson former candidate for Lt. Governor of Virginia made the same argument. I suppose he is also a racist?

      • “…EW Jackson former candidate for Lt. Governor of Virginia made the same argument…”

        As did Rev. C.L. Bryant in his documentary “Runaway Slave”:

        …but nobody wants to hear that message because its politically incorrect, even when said by other blacks. It requires people to take responsibility for themselves and that isn’t a popular stand to take in modern society. It’s so much easier to blame others for your problems.

  51. I posted previously that I didn’t trust him. In this day and age we have to be prepared for agent provocateurs. Whether Bundy was or not, he may as well have been. I have always been concerned about the level of federal penetration in the oath keepers and “militias” in general. Do not jump to knee jerk conclusions about anything you see on the news, very good chance it is a lie of some kind.

  52. Ironically, this is the guy who had access to grazing rights at heavily subsidized prices (compared typical private-land rates), but decided instead to graze his cattle without paying even that. His ranch is probably more subsidized by the government than any dozen families in the projects of North Las Vegas.

  53. Cliven Bundy is as much of a welfare recipient as the housing project people whose idleness he deplores, in that he’s been grazing cattle on public land, rent-free, for some time now. He is not a patriot, but a fucking scofflaw, and I would no more support him than I would support someone who has run up a sizeable debt in traffic fines, and is now refusing to pay those fines. In Bundy’s case, the gummint is right, and he is wrong, and so are the People of the Gun who rushed to his defense, many of whom, I suspect, refer to the current U. S. government as “the Zionist Occupation Government,” think that there is a secret plan to place troublesome U. S. citizens in FEMA concentration camps, and that various route markers on U; S. highways contain encrypted instructions for a U. N. military invasion force. Cuckoo city, man..

    • …when you are having to get on your knees for another corrupt DC Scumbag…as you certainly have in the past… and your kids are having to give blow-jobs to pedophilic government officials….then you will know the truth…but your dignity will be long gone by then…sad little-ass-clown that you are…

      RJ O’Guillory
      Webster Groves – The Life of an InsaneFamily

  54. For my first post on TTAG I wish I was addressing a more benign topic, but Robert you are as wrong about Cliven Bundy now as you were when you first reported the confrontation between him and the BLM. I think I understand why and I’ll say this as gently as I can. You are Not From Here. You’re an east-coast guy and, in moving to Austin (along with most of the other people Not From Here) it’s only expected that you’d bring east-coast sensibilities and expectations with you. To make matters worse, living in Austin, you’re vulnerable to the Austin Disease where even conservatives begin thinking like liberals. Most urban folk from the right and left coasts, are about as distant from Cliven Bundy’s life experiences as the rest of us are from Billy Dixon and Quanah Parker at Adobe Walls. There, I said it.

    Cliven Bundy is nobody’s poster child. He’s an obscure rancher in a remote corner of Nevada. He isn’t the most articulate guy in the world and so he usually comes across as a garrulous old fart who doesn’t give a damn about what anybody else thinks about him. He isn’t media savvy and doesn’t give the kind of carefully nuanced interviews the talking head’s expect. The guy just isn’t very attractive. That said, what he is quoted as saying doesn’t strike me as racist. Is a White guy using the word “Negro” racist? Really? In the past year or so it’s become fashionable for “official” blacks, rappers, comedians, commentators, journalists and glitterati to use “Negro” in common speech. We hear it all the time now. “Negro” is now once again in the common lexicon. If they can use it, then so can Bundy. As for the rest of his comments, if Bundy had been more careful and substituted the word “Blacks” for “Negro” he could easily be seen as addressing the exact same concerns that F. A. Hayek much more eloquently discuses in “The Road To Surfdom”.

    Cliven Bundy doesn’t have to give good media because, like Randy Weaver and like the Branch Dividians, the Bundy ranch confrontation reveals something profoundly ugly and sinister about our government, something that threatens us all. The relatives, neighbors, militia, and average people who spontaneously arrived at the ranch intuitively understood this. Because of them another Ruby Ridge or Waco was avoided.

  55. The New York Times gets plenty wrong. And they are Wrong on the statements on Bundy’s statements.
    Look for a retraction on the back page… After the slander has done its job. Divide and Conquer. Look at all the vultures sooo ready to pounce on Bundy. Wouldn’t you figure it would be Adam Nagourney of the New York Times who would ruin the splendid living theater of patriotism being acted out in Nevada by quoting everybody’s hero Cliven Bundy as having views about black folks that might embarrass your local Grand Dragon. LIES!!!

    Look at a made up story the Times just published. and retracted…

  56. The views of one man will not affect the integrity of the militia nor guns owners. His remarks, right or wrong, should have no bearing on the people standing their ground against an oppressive government. There are blacks and Hispanic gun owners who are also militia members. The situation in Nevada has to do with violating the rights of Americans, not a racial issue. Everyone is ignoring the gist of the statement.

  57. If you are so narrow-minded that you can’t read Bundy’s words and grasp the meaning behind the words, then you’re part of the problem in America.

    Though he may not do so with a glib tongue and he may be titled by personal bias, there’s truth in it. That’s what makes bleeding heart conservatives so mad. Someone will say something that contains truth, but in a manner easily labeled ‘racist’. Even more painful is the fact that we, that is ‘we’ as a country 150 years prior, should have paused and considered the ramifications of being so bold as to think we could determine the fate of a people so liberally without any consequences to them, nor any thought as to how they could be best served by such actions.

    Sometime, some day, someone is going to stop being a wuss and start talking truthfully about why America has some of the problems it does. Until that time, the country will continually slip closer to oblivion as people try to pretend things are better than they are and deny that many things are this way because some of our leaders were (and still are) idiots.

    • “alking truthfully about why America has some of the problems it does.”

      That’s obvious. Institutionalized Busybodyism. Minding everybody else’s business but their own. Unwillingness to simply live and let live.

  58. Just because an old timer use the world negro doesn’t mean he was being racist and people reaching out to the government for help are part or the problem because governments a problem. mother fuckers be using the race card to confuse the issue that the United Corporations of America & China don’t want people raising and growing their own food they want you to buy it or go with out.

    • Yes, I remember when the word “negro” was the accepted and sanctioned word. Being well over 40, I remember the commercials on TV to support the “United “Negro” College Fund”…now that word is supposedly no better than the original “N” word? WTF???

      All of you claiming racism because an old man used the word “negro” are about as clueless as they come. That was the accepted and appropriate word back in the day…kind of like that whole “well regulated” phrase meaning something different at the time it was penned when compared to the common usage of the word “regulate” today. Can you say irony?

      I never knew so many people commenting on this site were so full of PC BS!

      • Exactly the way I feel about it. My grandparents who lived to 103 and 100 would have spoken pretty much the same way. I can remember driving to Florida back in the late 70’s and my grandmother asking a black waitress in Atlanta if they had caught whoever is killing all those “negra children”. She thought she was using the proper polite term for black. She was being sincere. I wanted go crawl under the table but its just the way people were raised.

      • Yeah, he’s busted. Video proves it. Racist old bird. He doesn’t even think he’s being racist, but that’s exactly what it is. He’s from the old generation. I won’t stand as his judge… that’s not up to me. But I can’t stand behind someone who thinks that maybe “the Negro” “were better off as Slaves”.

        Either way, as I said from the git go, Bundy has nothing to do with me, gun owners, or our 2nd amendment rights.

  59. Am I the only one who didn’t read hate into what he said? Ignorance? Yes. Stupidity? Yes. But hate? White supremecy?

    I don’t know.

    I do think his statement was vile however and I don’t blame people from distancing from that.

    What I DO loathe is the “all conservatives/republicans are racists” crap that we now have to listen to. Again. Still.

    • Isn’t that always the case? Bundy may have made some statements relating to the lazines of some African-Americans he saw sitting at their house, none involved in any gainful activity. The one reporter may have then stretched this to become a blatantly racist rant. I don’t know. I would like to see the video, hear the audio or have another witness or two. I have seen the media too many times, not only make a mountain out of a molehill but actually fabricate one out of thin air.

    • Plenty of slaveowners believed they were doing their slaves a favor.

      Of course, it was just a happy coincidence that the slaveowners got rich off stolen labor in the process.

  60. Anyone rushing to risk their lives — or after Richard Mack, those of their women — for this nutty, racist codger needs either a real job or a far better sense of what to do with their melodrama-seeking lives. It’s not just that he’s unnecessarily combative, as Robert put it in a previous post, it’s that you can’t trust anything he says:

    “I’ve lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements,” Bundy said.

    Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy’s parents bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt. (!!!!)

    Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn’t start grazing on that land until 1954.

    The Bureau of Land Management was created 1946, the same year Cliven was born.

    “My rights are before the BLM even existed, but my rights are created by beneficial use. Beneficial use means we created the forage and the water from the time the very first pioneers come here,” Bundy said.

  61. The Bundy situation has served to mobilize Oath Keepers, and militia to the heavy hand of the government. Not that the Bundy situation is to credit, but governors and representatives from numerous western states are seriously discussing how to retrieve their land from the hands of the Bully Land Management and the Department of Interior. That is good.

    The state of Texas, the Texas Attorney General and the Texas governor are drawing lines in the sand and daring the BLM to come to Texas to try to seize more property of private property owners along the Red River Valley and along the Rio Grande River Valley. All have admitted it was the Bundy situation that revealed the real nature of the BLM and alerted them to get involved. That is good.

    Other states are viewing the land in their states that the BLM is managing, err mis-managing with new eyes and concerns. They are beginning to see that they as local managers would far better manage these lands than the federal government. That is good.

    So despite the racism of one man, the issue is far greater than one man. It is an issue of over-reaching, heavy-handedness by the federal government which apparently is following a plan to obtain more land anywhere and by any means it can.

        • Don’t be myopic. It has much to do with the Second Amendment. The Constitution limits government. Government took a heavy handed course with Bundy. Do you really believe that the Second Amendment is talking about just the right to keep and bear arms or is it talking about defense against tyranny (foreign and domestic)?

          A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

          Property was being seized by government. The People were being told by government that they could only exercise their right to free speech in a specific “free speech zone.” People were being threatened at gun point by government. If you believe that the 2A is there to put government on notice about your right to hunt, target shoot, or defend yourself against ordinary crime then you don’t really understand the Second Amendment.

        • The Constitution also says that Congress has the legal authority to pass laws related to federal lands, and Congress did exactly that when they created the BLM.

        • Is your contention that the BLM and it’s actions are constitutional? Acts passed by Congress that happen to be unconstitutional are still that, unconstitutional.

        • The very existence of the BLM goes against the principles of the Constitution. Yes Congress can pass laws about FEDERAL land. Before Congress stole 80% of Nevada, it wasn’t federal land, but state land. the feds may appropriate lands for military bases, embassies, etc necessary for the purposes of the federal government. Managing 80% of a state is beyond that prerogative.

  62. A guy who doesn’t recognize the federal government and wants to do whatever he wants with public land turns out to be a racist that wouldn’t mind slavery coming back. What a surprise.

  63. This is all you need to know: a man who believes in individual liberty would never make that statement, out loud or in his heart. His rights may have been violated, but he would not accord those rights to all his fellow Americans. I will not stand with such a man. He doesn’t understand the principles of liberty for all.

  64. I’m wondering…omitted from the first sentence rendered by Mr Bundy….so now a full ‘liberal assault’ against a messenger about federal enslavement and over reach…since liberals can not kill the message…they ALWAYS go after the messenger…ALWAYS….as a great man in the west once said RESPONDING TO LIBERALS…….FUATHURIO, WHICH MEANS……FUANDTHEHORSEYOURODEINON….IMHOO

  65. I read the newspaper article. It states “The New York Times has overheard Cliven Bundy”, …overheard. That is on par with “an unnamed source”, or a “private conversation with a person close too:. It holds no water, and should NOT be the basis for ANY serious news source.

  66. Bundy was right. I lived in Detroit for over 50 years and saw the “blessings” of the black culture turn it into a third world cesspool. It always amazes me (not) how few liberal whites actually live in the “diverse” communities they worship.

    • John from the internet…

      Posting media matter links is a dead giveaway that you are indeed a paid government troll…one of many on this site.

  67. You can be against the BLM and the overbearing federal government and also not support an individual like Bundy.

    It’s OK though, things are going to blow up probably literally in Texas if they try the land grab they have planned and this will be just a small foot note like one of the several powder alarms in 1774.

  68. Here is MY opinion. My opinion is not those of my associates, friends, or family.

    Coming from the south and growing up around older people (now would be in their 80’s & 90’s), i heard far worse terms for people of different ethnicity. The N-word was dropped in normal conversation by these elderly people. If you look at my grandmother’s cook books from the 1940’s, you will find these terms used as common place.Have we changed and progressed as a society, yes. But who is to say what words we use today will not be taboo when we are in our elderly years. He speaks the way he speaks. I am not going to support his views, but I am also not going to make a huge deal of an old man’s ramblings when he is madder than a mule chewin’ on bumble bees. Oh, and don’t forget our beloved first amendment. Again, I do not support his views or what he said. But I do have respect for a man speaking his mind. Most people don’t want honesty these days and unfortunately Mr. Bundy will be used as a poster Boy? Child? Man? for the left that want to pigeon hole us into one bigoted, racist, non-conforming, uneducated, don’t know our ass from a hole in the ground group. DAMN IT!

  69. I’m beginning to think Farago is really a leftist plant, or in this case, letting his east coast elitism show. No one is a saint; the real issue here is massive executive branch intimidation and overreach. Wonder if this comment will get “moderated?”

    • Funny how Farago’s golden when he’s posting links favorable to the Bundy klan, and he’s a left coast plant when he posts the (now verified by video) transcript of a racist rant.

    • Great. Maybe you can start a ‘Range-War’ blog or something. I thought this blog was about the 2A – of which this Bundy issue has nothing to do with really.

      Are there commonalities – ie – Over-reaching Big Fed Gov, Some of them have guns, etc? Sure… But that doesn’t mean this is a 2A issue and I have to support a known racist in his range war with the Feds.

  70. The true patriots in the “Battle of Jakes” focus first and foremost on the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms, they are not sexist, racist or any other kind of ist. Read the story for yourself!

    • I didn’t get that same impression from the video that I viewed. I heard a man who had compassion for people he thought were languishing in a gilded cage. His comparison seemed to me as more of a thought provoking one rather than a statement in favor of slavery.

  71. The guy isn’t racist, his comment/point was completely taken out of context. Cliven Bundy has black militia staying with him and guarding his life, hardly the actions (which speak louder than words) of a racist.

    If you are falling for any of this character assassination, you are still very much under control of the state and you are the true slave!


    • I was never involved in Bundy’s range war to begin with, so nothing to divide. This is not specifically a 2A issue.

      • So, what is the purpose behind the Second Amendment? Is it hunting? Is it target shooting? Is it self defense against ordinary crime?

        A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state,

        Agents of government pointed guns needlessly at citizens. Agents of government tried to force the People to exercise their free speech right in government designated zones only. etc, etc.

        The 2A exists for situations like this. This was very much a 2A issue.

  72. After reading through the comments, I think I can clear up a bit of what was said. While Bundy does appear to make a racist remark, I believe what was intended is that under the government subsidy programs, the majority of participants are not given the incentives to get off the program. I have seen it myself. Families buying steaks and “organic” foods with foodstamps and then buying beer and cigarettes with cash, all the while I am living on ground turkey and ramen. I have always had a job and never qualified for foodstamps.There are an overabundance of people, of every race, that abuse a system designed during the depression.
    This is what is wrong with america. We used to lead the world in innovation, education, and healthcare. Now, most areas qualify as third world. We have given up our freedoms for security. Anyone that says we are still free is delusional. The government is running rampant all over.

    • Why does this seem to be the only comment you can make?

      But to answer your repeated question. No, they weren’t better off as slaves. Neither are they better off receiving government subsidies for doing nothing. No one is. There is no incentive to get a better education or a successful job inherent in the welfare programs.

    • Paul, do you think this thread was better before you started posting the same redundant lack of a point over and over again?

      Do you think the internet was better before you started your craptastic you tube channel?

      Do you think trolling was an art form before you became the saddest example of a troll on TTAG?

    • I’ll answer without benefit of a seance to ask some of my ancestors about their first hand experiences. My best answer is, “Hell no, jackass!”

      BTW: Nobody in my family tree goes by “African American”. The term is “black” if you absolutely must make a distinction.

  73. Lots of rural poor white people don’t do much other than collect government checks either. I have seen it.

    As someone else said above, Bundy seems to always start with a somewhat legitimate point, then add as much hate and spite as he can muster. By the time he’s done, if any good comes of it, it comes in spite of his participation rather than from it.

  74. I’m black so I have a right to comment on this. Bundy’s words is being taken out of context a little bit but even if he is racist that do not change the fact that the BLM and Federal government was wrong in taking his cattles. O and by the way this government supports mothers killing their own babies.

    Long Live the Repuplic.

  75. I guess Bundy would know about about taking a subsidy now would he? This is the same ol’ “It’s ok if I do it, but not the negro” BS. Don’t mind me, I’m just using this federal land everyone is paying for but me, hear the extra change jingling about in my pockets? Thanks for paying, suckes. Btw, who in the right mind gets on camera and uses that word? I don’t care if you’re old, I think we all know better by now.

    • “It’s ok if I do it, but not the negro”

      He didn’t say it’s “not OK for the Negro,” he merely observed that it was taking place. “Hey, they’re doing it, why can’t I?”

      • Looking for an excuse for him now eh? He doesn’t recognize the us (why he goes waving a flag after talking like that is beyond me) he thinks what he is doing is right, nowhere in his rant is he saying “Hey, they’re doing it, why can’t I?” he’s even condemning it and is completely oblivious to the hypocrisy because he’s too stupid to see it.

      • ” and so what I’ve testified to ya’, I was in the WATTS riot, I seen the beginning fire and I seen the last fire. What I seen is civil disturbance. People are not happy, people is thinking they did not have their freedom; they didn’t have these things, and they didn’t have them.

        We’ve progressed quite a bit from that day until now, and sure don’t want to go back; we sure don’t want the colored people to go back to that point; we sure don’t want the Mexican people to go back to that point; and we can make a difference right now by taking care of some of these bureaucracies, and do it in a peaceful way.

        Let me tell.. talk to you about the Mexicans, and these are just things I know about the negroes. I want to tell you one more thing I know about the negro.

        When I go, went, go to Las Vegas, North Las Vegas; and I would see these little government houses, and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids…. and there was always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch. They didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for the kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for the young girls to do.

        And because they were basically on government subsidy – so now what do they do? They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never, they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered are they were better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things? Or are they better off under government subsidy?

        You know they didn’t get more freedom, uh they got less freedom – they got less family life, and their happiness -you could see it in their faces- they were not happy sitting on that concrete sidewalk. Down there they was probably growing their turnips – so that’s all government, that’s not freedom.

        Now, let me talk about the Spanish people. You know I understand that they come over here against our constitution and cross our borders. But they’re here and they’re people – and I’ve worked side-by-side a lot of them.

        Don’t tell me they don’t work, and don’t tell me they don’t pay taxes. And don’t tell me they don’t have better family structure than most of us white people. When you see those Mexican families, they’re together, they picnic together, they’re spending their time together, and I’ll tell you in my way of thinking they’re awful nice people.

        And we need to have those people join us and be with us…. not, not come to our party.”

        Here is his rant in full and you got “Hey, they’re doing it, why can’t I?” from that? Who is the one trolling now? He doesn’t recognize the government fool, he’s a walking contradiction that goes off saying that then waves the American flag. He doesn’t even believe he’s on a government subsidy, that’s how stupid his mind is. He’s been free grazing for over twenty years, another welfare queen that the far right doesn’t like to acknowledge because they want to make him into their hero. The people supporting him don’t even have a leg to stand on as well. “Take big guvment to court!” You mean the same court that sided against Bundy and ordered him to stop trespassing? So he should recognize rulings in his favor but not the rulings against him? Give me a break.

        • “Here is his rant in full and you got “Hey, they’re doing it, why can’t I?” from that? ”

          Sigh. This is tedious. No that’s not what I “got from that,” I was pointing out the error of those who cry “racism” when all Cliven was doing was observing what he has seen.

        • This would be a good post. If you didn’t think he was “free grazing”. Nothing could be further from the truth. He paid his fees. The BLM just kept changing the terms.

          Learn something about grazing fees before you troll. Would that be too much to ask?

  76. Reading this it seems to be something my great grandpa would say.
    It is a tad gruff and to the point. Sadly the point is lost from people who can see past what they think is racism.
    It is truly a sad truth that the black community has suffered from a lot of social engenering by true racists that want to contain them in “their” areas, let them kill eachother, and help them abort themselves out of existance.

    At least when they were in chains they knew. They knew that they were not free, they knew what freedom was. They knew the master, they knew the enemy.
    Now they do not see the cains, they do not know freedom, and they do not know the enemy.

  77. Mack, you are dodging.

    Do you agree with Bundy that African Americans were better off as slaves picking cotton?

    Do you share giss view that slavery was good for the Negro who lived with intact families and raised chickens and enjoyed vegetable gardens on Masssh’s plantation?

    Yes, those were the good old days.

  78. McCain is more interested in his politically correct agenda than discussing anything factual, but unfortunately I get the same vibe from this forum in general.

    • Paul doesn’t have a politically-correct agenda. He’s just a troller stuck in a rut. Of his own making.

  79. This forum reeks of controlled opposition, a pro 2nd amendment site on the surface, yet an obvious pro-establishment, misinformation site in reality. All too common on the internet.

    • It’s a pro-2A forum. The Bundy thing was only very peripherally 2A related, and then only by the backdoor, “in the grander scheme of government overreach” sort of way, so the thread has been kind of a free-for-all on that little melodrama. To me, it’s all about Freedom, but the thread has been kind of fun to watch. 😉

  80. Way to go Mr. Bundy. You just placed a black mark on all gun owners, militia members, and everyone who supported you, including those who disagreed that you are within the law but who saw the Federal government’s response as excessive.

  81. There are 47 milllion people on food stamps depending on us so please step away from the keyboards and help pull the wagon, Comrads!

  82. Cliven Bundy is a hero. He is a real American patriot and he isn’t a racist, he’s a realist. If you actually paid attention you’d realize that. If you think anything but that you are an idiot. It’s amazing how many people will say they’ve supported Bundy from the start and now they say “well I’ve never fully supported him” ect ect. This site blows, let me know when that turd Robert resigns.

  83. i think the media has taken this out of context, what he was trying to say i think was that the blacks have traded one slave owner for another which is the goverment.

  84. John in Ohio

    the only thing in my original statement that i want to convey was that I am offended by his racism not fearful. I recognize that he and anybody has the right to his free speech but this is not doing the movement any justice. He is a magnet for the and requires damage control.

    And he is an ass who happens to be white.

    yes ive seen racism from all colors. He just reminds me of the futility of that disease

  85. I don’t care about context. When you condone another man to slavery for any reason, you do not care about freedom. He was concerned about property rights? Lets make him someone elses property for one day and see how he feels about it.

      • Maybe he meant condone the enslavement of another man….

        Certainly the chattel slavery of the American past ranks as one of the most disgusting examples of human abuse, worse even than most slave regimes of the past. Rome, e.g., gave legal protection to the status of slave families and marriages and placed limits on the powers of masters, i.e. didn’t treat slaves as chattel.

    • Except, dear BAMFER, Bundy didn’t “condone” slavery or condemn anyone to it. He was drawing parallels between classical slavery of the the past in America and a slavery of sorts under the socialist ‘entitlement’ system in modern America. It’s not about context. It’s about understanding what the man plainly said. You can misunderstand all that you want and that’s all on you. However, don’t blame on context that which is a result of your unintentional or willful ignorance. You are bearing false witness.

      • He and a whole lot of people who are suddenly “enlivened” (ahem) by a “cause”. Which is to slander a man who went up against a tyrannical government agency. If you get my meaning.

  86. Never saw so many TROLLS as this one. Several one shot deals it seems. Hey hoots RF ISN’T resigning. It’s HIS SITE doofus. That is all.

  87. Even many pro-slavery sourthern authors, clerics, etc condemned the reak up of slave families. Slave marriages had no legal recognition and were often split by sale of one member one way, the other another. Heck more than one proponent of slavery attributed the south’s loss of the civil war to the splitting of “negro families” and other injustices

    He is just a loon. Black families were never stronger than they were after slavery but before the 1960’s, when your spouse and children couldn’t be sold away from you and when you marriage had legal effect. Did he forget those 100 years of history?

    • when your spouse and children couldn’t be sold away from you and when you marriage had legal effect.

      Not exactly the same thing but with shades of it…

      If you spend time in the trenches with parental rights groups (I have), you will find an alarming trend of which impoverished families are ripped apart by children’s protective agencies. There is often little evidence of actual abuse or neglect and what little due process is often short circuited by ‘voluntary’ agreements entered into by one or more of the parents. Signature on these agreements are often obtained through coercion. The children are kept from the parents and parents are told that if they don’t sign these agreements then they will never see their children again. It’s also not uncommon for social services to decree that one parent must divorce the other in order to possibly get the children back to one of the parents. There’s money in the foster care system. There’s money in taking children. Families are separated, households are destroyed, and children suffer.

  88. ah poor liberal hypocrites and hatemongers

    this author doesnt seem to understand how transparent his feeble attempts are… the ONLY “bitter bile” comes from liberal hypocrites and cowards who are ignoring what he’s actually said… and pretending to fake outrage at NON RACISM that im sure every single one of these self gratyfing hypocrites fully expect moronic black people to “greatfull” for.

  89. After seeing some of his clarification this morning, I don’t think Bundy is a racist or even particularly mean-spirited. I think he’s a man who was left behind a little as the world moved on without him, speaking in the vernacular of another era. That doesn’t make him a bad person, but it does make him a horrible spokesperson. He should have just stopped talking to the press a week ago.

  90. I think white Americans so blindly talk about black stereotypes, and are so removed from the truths of our current affairs as a population. White Americans live just like black people live. We have White Americans living good, and Black Americans living Good. We have white folks, and black folk living bad. Whites like to stereotype blacks, while acting like whites do not live in the same condition. Wake up Americans, no human beings would be better off as slaves.

    • Watch on YT the late Russell Means’ one-hour lecture, WELCOME TO THE RESERVATION.

      It’s excellent. In it, he says, “Americans are the new Indians”.

      • I second this recommendation on Russell Means’ one-hour lecture, “WELCOME TO THE RESERVATION.” If someone doesn’t wake up after watching this interview there isn’t much hope for them of ever waking up before it’s too late.

  91. while i cant agree with what bundy said, i still agree with what he said in principle, in that; many AMERICANS have become slaves to the government, without questioning it.

    “If I could have convinced more slaves that they were slaves, I could have freed thousands more.
    Harriet Tubman

    Too many people dont even realise their freedom is on the way out the door, or refuse to acknowledge it.

    • “Too many people dont even realise their freedom is on the way out the door, or refuse to acknowledge it.”

      They don’t care, as long as they have their bread and circuses. A well-fed mule doesn’t really care what’s in his master’s cart.


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