UPS truck
(AP Photo/Patrick Semansky, File)
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By Lee Williams

United Parcel Service is terminating the accounts of gun dealers across the country. Any packages currently in the UPS system may be “seized and destroyed.”

In a letter sent to one Florida gun dealer, Ghost Firearms, UPS said they were terminating the account because they “may be violating” laws concerning homemade firearm parts.

“We write to inform you that UPS has learned that your company may be violating applicable laws concerning the shipment of ‘ghost guns’ to unauthorized locations,” the letter states. “In light of our concern, UPS has determined that it will cancel your account, effective immediately.

Ghost’s owner, Joe Zatar was told all scheduled pickups will be cancelled, and that he cannot reopen another UPS account or ship anything from a UPS store or website.

He is most concerned about the packages already in the UPS system, which he may have already lost.

“Please note that any package found in the UPS system determined to have been tendered by GHOST FIREARMS may be seized and destroyed,” the letter states.

“I just shipped more than $30,000 worth of products,” he said.

Zatar immediately called his UPS sales rep, who said he had no idea the account was terminated.

Ghost Firearms sells uppers, lowers, handguards and OEM parts for a number of manufacturers. They also sell 80% receivers.

“We do not ship to states where they’re not allowed,” Zatar said. “We are in total compliance. We had ATF in here just two weeks ago, and they told us we were completely legal.”

UPS’ Media Relations personnel did not return calls or emails seeking comment for this story.


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This story is part of the Second Amendment Foundation’s Investigative Journalism Project and is published here with their permission.

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  1. time for brian kemp to step up and take away all of UPS special tax incentives and cease all commerce from the state of GA to them. take a page from desantis

    • After receiving such a letter that is based on something that “may” be wrong you do not call a low level ups rep you call a Civil Rights Attorney who should write a certified letter to ups and demand absolute proof of wrongdoing. Otherwise a discrimination lawsuit may be in their future.

      On the other hand naming you company Ghost Firearms is not exactly a magnet to draw a jury to your side.

        • Not necessarily. They are governed by laws for common carriers. Regardless, they have absolutely no authority to seize and destroy any package, as that is tantamount to theft.

        • “A private company can decide not to do business with whomever they want.”

          Not according to federal law, and SC decisions.

          Which is all that matters.

        • they can’t open your private property and destroy paid in full items…that is theft and criminal mischief.. by the way UPS is a public company being openly traded..

        • They can decide they are going to terminate accounts, or stop taking certain kinds of packages, but they can’t just seize stuff already in transport, placed in their custody in good faith under contract.

          I agree with Haz, I want to see confirmation as this seems like something that legal would not have signed off on. A “As of this future date will no longer accept blah blah blah” would have been more believable, as would a mere account termination.

        • Really and what law school did you attend skippy? I see a major lawsuit in UPS’s future.

        • Whether they “have the right” or not (they don’t, as you stated it), they have ABSOLUTELY no right to seize and destroy packages ALREADY IN THEIR SYSTEM, because they “suspect” that the shipper “may” be violating the law.

          But you do you.

        • They cannot “confiscate” property that isn’t theirs. That is called “stealing”.

          UPS wants to get sued.

        • That is true. But they accepted those packages for shipment, and unless they can prove there was illegal conduct in the customer’s part, UPS is contractually obligated to safeguard those packages and deliver them to the recipients. In lieu of doing that, they can return the packages to the sender and refund all fees paid.

        • “”A private company can decide not to do business with whomever they want.””

          there is a baker and a couple that wanted a ‘gay’ cake that disprove your point! it had to go all the way up to SCOTUS to change it and being ‘gay’ is not an AMD right!

        • Any Citizen can decide not to use United Parcel Service to ship any goods. With all of the Pro 2nd Amendment Citizens in the United States, I am sure many will not be using UPS for any further services. I for one will cease from further use of them. I do have a choice.

        • Nope. NOT when they hold themselves out to serve the generl public. THEY have no basis on which to discriminate, and this IS discrimination.
          Can UPS dcide to stop shipping items from a known-anti-homosexual organisation of any sort? Nope. How about from a risis preganancy centre which works to help women not abort their children, and in general opposes abortioin? Nope.

          UPS further have no reason nor right to locate items in their system, for which feight has already been paid, and seize and/or destry it. It is NOT their property, they have obligatioins as in ICC Carrier to deliver the goods they have taken into their system.

          This is so outrageous I almost think its a made up phoney story.

      • The first person any of us would the account rep. The rep’s job is to handle accounts.

        Seeing as the rep didn’t know about the letter, the next step is to verify its authenticity, as anyone can print a fake letter. I doubt UPS’ attorneys would permit a declaration of seizure and destruction of property.

        If it is indeed authentic, then it’s time to call your own atty.

        • Might have been sent by a competitor.
          Or maybe Giffords or Brady has opened a Dirty Tricks Bureau.
          Dawg Eat Dawg world out there.

      • I agree. They’re entitled to call themselves what they want, but some names are going to cause unwanted attention. Better off calling it “Billy Bob’s Parts” than Ghost Guns.

      • Dollars incomes sincere process to parent and earn on-line. start now developing each day over $500 simply performing from home. Last month my incomes from this are $16205 and i gave this process entirely hours from my entire day. only manner to earn (wsx26) extra economic advantage on-line and it doesn’t goals any pretty unique experience. circulate to this net web website online right now and

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          WHERE is a button to flag and block such tripe? Come ONNNN they are not htat hard to get.

    • Sooo now The truth about guns is no as worthless as the rest of the media. i will never be able to visit this sight again. i was told a long time ago that if you put three gun people in a room you would now have the three dumbest people on the planet. I see it at every gun show and I’m embarrassed. We should be stronger together but were not. Sooooo sad. Sorry that you’ve made the list. i’ll not be back.

      • True, and My thing on this is “Dont punish yourself more than the guy your trying to punish”. So if there is no choice, you just deal with UPS.

        ….but when you have an option….. 🙂

      • Yes you’re right and that totally sucks. It’s long overdue for somebody to come in and put their sorry asses in their place. If your package gets wrongfully tagged for mandatory signature and you live alone and can’t meet their screwed-up schedule to be home for delivery then you either have to miss work and risk losing money to meet their screwball demands because they WILL NOT change a signature requirement whether it be a mistake or not. I’ve had packages returned to sender and they had to reship when this mistake was theirs but it sometimes took half a damn month to get what I purchased or pay a Hell of a lot more for it than an online sale price I initially paid.

      • the SHIPPER always has a choice. UPS is one of several. We who order stuff do not. It makes me furious to get stuff from the children operating the WhammaZonn trucks. But as a purchaser I have no choice. The seller/shipper makes that call.

        Of course, if this meme turns out to be true, al the rest of us who ship things can always decide to NOT “pick UPS”.

    • How nice of you not to bother including information you already knew, a-hole. 🙁

      “Carol B. Tomé was born Carol Louise Buchenroth on January 8, 1957 in Jackson, Wyoming.[7] Tomé’s family emphasized the value of hard work and capability in her upbringing, which Tomé characterizes as “an unbelievable childhood”. She learned to hunt, fish, cook, sew, and live off the land. Her father was a community banker. Tomé took an early interest in finance, and envisioned herself following a similar path and working in banking after her graduation from business school at The University of Denver.”

      • Get your own screen name you insufferable poser, stop stealing other’s intellectual property.

        • Get a Gravatar to protect your “intellectual property”. Then everyone will know who the real Slim Shifty is.

  2. Oh, please, please let there be an avenue of attack on UPS should the company destroy product enroute based simply on suspicion. Please let there be a means by which Ghost Firearms can bankrupt UPS.

  3. Well according to the Libertarians Liberals and the Left there’s nothing wrong with this. Just as the banks can refuse to do service with the gun industry. Which the Libertarians support. If they’re intellectually honest, they would also support UPS refusing to do service with the gun industry.

      • Just as the Second Amendment it’s not about hunting. The First Amendment is not about pornography. But you can certainly have both.

      • Libertarianism is cringe and suffers from the same utopian mindset and flawed anthropology that plagues the Marxists.

        And this is coming from a former libertarian. The last two years have beat the last vestiges of libertarianism out of me.

        • For me it’s not just about Gerry Johnson and William Weld. It’s about the total and complete failure of the Libertarians to support the police during the 2020 riots. I said the rioters should have been shot dead on sight. Also their total “support in silence”, supporting the lock downs and requiring people to wear a useless mask.

          They support stealing, but not from rich people. See their support for prop 47 in California. And that was back in 2014. Which I have talked at length about on TTAG.

          And now here’s another one. What civil rights issue, or issues, ARE MISSING from this “Libertarian” example????
          This Libertarian Colorado gov supports groomers.

          “Democrat Jared Polis: Most Libertarian Governor?” video 5 min long

        • I watched the video. Are Libertarians against having a border? If that’s the case, then they’re against having a country. I noticed that the establishment tried to use libertarians to fight Trump’s trade deals. Apparently it’s okay for other countries to use tariffs against us but we aren’t allowed to do the same. The Chinese came right out and admitted that they were using Wall Street to fight back against the trade deals. Democrats were on the side of both Wall Street and the Chinese. Remember the constant propaganda about how those deals would ruin everything and stuff would be too expensive? It turns out that wasn’t the problem, was it?

          Polis speaking about religious people: “As long as they don’t push their values on others.”

          Left wingers are always quick to say stuff like that, but what they mean is they don’t want conservative values being taught. They want progressive values being taught. They now say you have to expose children to alternative lifestyles and teach them about changing their gender and having anal sex so they’ll accept others. It’s an excuse to “push their values on others.”

        • I don’t think you will be able to say those things about the libertarian party moving forward. The Mises caucus took over the party recently in order to make the party libertarian again. It was being run by what appeared to be a bunch of leftists. You should look into them.

      • Just ask any academic where they fondle the kiddies. They’re groomers for a reason. Anyone ever recall their teachers talking about their sex lives when you were in school. Just preverts, freaks and losers today. No wonder kids can’t read, can’t do math, and don’t know who we fought in WW2.

    • And right on cue the most “respectable” folks here on TTAG excitedly insert their favorite fixations “pornography”, “kiddie grooming”, and “anal sex” unashamedly right into the conversation- inappropriately… as per usual.

      It really gets old, fellas (and it’s just sick).

      • But that’s what the opposition pushes. Ignoring it doesn’t make it go away, confronting it and shutting that shit down does.

    • Tell us Chris more about how Republicans stood up to Democrats and did not pass any more gun laws. Oh wait they did not.

      And yes businesses can do business with whomever they choose. The Governement needs to get out of it, along with marriage, drugs and so on. Freedom means people will do things you do not agree with, that’s how it works. Why this concept is so hard for you Republicans to understand is beyond most people with any common sense.

      • The problem with anarcho-capitalist style libertarianism is it ignores that any business with sufficient monopoly can through discrimination inhibit the liberty of others who cannot do things that the business owners disagree with because the means to do so, or to live at all, are access restricted by that business.

        It’s like building a wall around someone’s house and not letting them out or anyone else in but then claiming they’re free to live however they please; within the confines of those walls until they run out of food and water. that isn’t libertarianism imo.

        So, no, businesses should not be allowed to discriminate against anyone for engaging in any legal behavior. Otherwise, said business is abusing its power and influence to, without any jurisdiction to do so, govern the behaviors of others by depriving those who don’t abide the business owners’ ideology of access to the public trade of goods and services which are necessary to live at all within a modern economy.

      • Well. It seems Libertarians like you would support the East India Bay Company. And United Fruit operations in Central America in the 1920s. And the “company towns” run by Coal Mines in the United States. And support their treatment of their employees and the community where the businesses operated.

  4. I do believe that UPS will be liable for any packages seized and/or destroyed. There are pretty strict laws concerning interstate commerce. The only way this doesn’t cost them is, they can prove conclusively that some or all of the packages involved were illegal.

    And, I will cease and desist my own business relations with UPS immediately.

    • Not only liable, but unless they return them to the sender from which they accepted them its at a minimum theft and possibly grand larceny depending on the total cost of all the packages. If they have moved them already across a state line its in furtherance of a crime so it becomes federal too.

      • Don’t forget Insurance Fraud if ups destroys the package willingly and then claims the loss OR makes the shipper claim the loss

    • UPS, as is any other courier, is responsible for all packages entrusted to them. They can either deliver to recipient or return to sender. Destroying is not an option nor should it be. Claim can be made if a package is lost, damaged or destroyed during transit even if it is not indemnified/insured.
      If contents are suspect, then contacting authorities is the best thing to do rather than destroying indiscriminately.

      • What does their fine print say about illegally shipping something? They probably reserve the right to dispose of it. The real question is whether or not the shipment is illegal. UPS seems to think it is.

        • No, UPS doesn’t think they ARE breaking the law. They think the company “may be” violating the law by shipping to certain locations. No specific accusations, no investigation, just an assumption of guilt and termination of the account.

        • Their letter isn’t a very detailed explanation. If I had to assume something, I’d assume they have their reasons outside of being some kind of anti-firearms activist. I’d like to hear more about this before passing judgement.

    • Private entities aren’t entitled to destroy contraband on their own. If a package actually had illegal contents, they would have to turn it over to law enforcement.

    • So here’s the thing:
      If they were, as you say, able to “prove conclusively that some or all of the packages involved were illegal”, then by destroying them instead of turning them over to law enforcement, they’ve destroyed the proof to support their justification for destroying said packages.
      And if they admit destroying packages that were part of illegal activity, then they are destroying evidence and obstructing evidence.
      They’re screwed either way.

  5. avatar David W. Walters, Ph.D. amd Formerly Captain of Infantry and Company Commandfer USMC, during the Vietnam conflict

    An obvious procedural abomination which deserves ostracizing of the vendor by gun loving Americans.

    • The bakery shops gets no support from the Libertarians Liberals or the Left. But I do remember when the porn shops got plenty of support from the three L’s, when the government was going after them.

      • I don’t know what libertarian stole your girl but you are about as far off on libertarianism as you can get.

        • You should pray. Or if you’re an atheist you should hope very hard, that your name does not come up in my TTAG archive, supporting the banks discriminating against the gun industry.

        • Chris T,

          Like Vhyrus, I am at a loss to understand your rabid dislike (and blatant mischaracterization) of libertarians. Yes, Evan McMuffin and Gary Johnson CLAIM to be Libertarians (notice the capital “L”???), but, then Joe Biden CLAIMS to be a moderate, as did Barry Soetoro.

          As to the whole banking thing, YES, I believe banks, and ALL businesses, have a right to do business, or NOT do business, with whoever. Sorry that apparently chaps your ass. T.S., Eliot.

        • Heres the thing Chris. Its not the banks, just like it isnt UPS discriminating against gun owners. Notice their justification for the termination of services. “May be violating applicable laws”. They are afraid that the government will come down on them and are covering their asses by cutting ties, same as the banks. This is the government forcing businesses to enforce extrajudicial laws on their behalf out of fear. There is nothing free market about this, and there is no libertarian that believes this is right or just.

        • to LampOfDiogenes
          “As to the whole banking thing, YES, I believe banks, and ALL businesses, have a right to do business, or NOT do business, with whoever. Sorry that apparently chaps your ass. T.S., Eliot.”

          Thank you for being intellectually honest. And yes I do occasionally wear chaps.

        • Chris T,

          Well-played, sir. I made it clear (or at least I thought I did), that I am a “small ‘L'” libertarian – a “Jeffersonian libertarian”, if you will. So, yes, I believe a business has the right to do business, or not, with whomever. Do you think a Christian baker should be forced to bake a cake for a gay wedding?

          OTOH, I do NOT believe in open borders (certainly not as long as we maintain our absurd welfare state!!). I agree that the last few “Libertarian” presidential candidates were a complete embarrassment (well, Jo Jorgensen was only somewhat awful), but . . . not a member of that Party, and I share VERY few views with the last five or six “Libertarian” candidates. But I also can’t deal with the Corporate Republicans (or increasingly, these days, the BIG CORPORATE Dimocrats). Valid options are somewhat thin on the ground, these days. And NO, “well at least X isn’t as bad as Y” doesn’t cut it – it’s thinking like that that got us two Bushes in the White House. That kind of “better” I can do without. But an Evan McMuffin or Gary Johnson is a bridge too far – maybe two bridges.

      • “The bakery shops gets no support from the Libertarians Liberals or the Left.”

        Why hasn’t one of the 2A defender organizations gone after banks for refusing to do business with firearms dealers?

      • Chris is clueless, correcting him is waiting your time. He is everything wrong with the Conservative movement. Just as bad as Progressives / Liberals, just in the opposite direction.

        You are the only person who needs to pray for yourself, you are what we call a Sunday Christian.

  6. Every gun owner needs to immediately cease business with any company that ships by UPS. not only gun related but anything.

    • Ugh, but FedEx is regularly getting my packages delayed or losing them. Ellenwood, GA is apparently where they go to die. Definitely wouldn’t want to live in a FedEx only world.

  7. June 20, 2022. The day UPS died.

    No surprise. They are in Amazons pocket and Amazon is in the hands of anti-freedom elitists. I say anti-freedom because they are against a lot more than guns and even the left agrees with that. So I guess all I can say is: About damn time. I like my UPS drivers, but they are in the same boat as companies like Frito-Lay where they work an average of 60 hours per week. It’s not a sustainable life style and it’s totally different than working 60 hours a week for yourself. You are essentially a slave at anything beyond 30 and people STILL can’t afford to live off that. So good riddance UPS.

    I cut out Amazon a year and some change ago. It’s been interesting, especially when I need certain things that are not offered locally, and I know some of the alternatives are not much better – but they aint no Amazon. I’ll take a win where I can get it. At least I don’t have a bunch of marketing telling me to buy cheap Chinese crap when I am just looking for something simple anymore. If I want that, I’ll go to a local Wal-Mart (and even that cheap Chinese crap is better than the crap Amazon peddles). Anyways…

    About damn time. Fuck off and die, UPS. All you drivers, you are worth much more than UPS values you at, and you deserve better. Maybe time to start looking and avoid companies like Frito, Pepsi (they are actually the same), Coca-Cola etc etc… Those places will give you a route and make you a RTE (Route Sales Executive) but it’s not anywhere near worth it. They are the same shit different toilet.

    • Working 60 hours a week is not slavery. I worked for a large lottery company, 60 hours a week and had another job with city for 20 a week, did that 80 hours for years…. I guess there are too many wossies afraid to work anymore.

      • Oh stuff it, did you actually enjoy be someone’s wage drone? I did the same thing for years. Got by on 4 hours of sleep a night and alot of caffeine. It’s a shit way of life with no time for your family let alone anything else. No one in there right mind would choose that and has every right to complain about it.

        • @Montana Actual Wow, you speak millennial.. Enjoy you mommy’s basement. Happy 4th

        • Man I see a lot of your posts on here and I agree with some often, but this whole mentality you are projecting here is a failed one. Calling people “wussies” for wanting better wages and more time with family was your shot, and I fired back. Also, nobody knows what the fuck you mean by “groomer”.

        • @Montana Actual Are you confusing me with @GRA ??? “Groomer” didn’t come from me….I don’t have a problem taking credit/blame for “wussies” because a man will do what he needs to to support his family. Pleasure and relaxation come way after food on the table and roof over their heads. My wife was injured and required I work 2 jobs to replace her income. A man does that, a wussy complains about how much he misses his family and how hard it is… There are reasons some guys physically can’t, but since I have no excuse, I did. I guess that makes me a bad dad because I didn’t spend more time with my kids….I was too busy supporting them.

        • lol are you serious? Bitch I “provided” for a family for 15 months on a first deployment and 7 months on the next before I got hit. You are preaching to the chior. You wanna bitch about burger flippers making a decent wage and people “not working enough” when in reality they are the all OUR type of people. You should be happy when someone else gets a raise and isn’t required to work a massive amount to do it. You seem to be missing the point. All you idiots are the same. “Providers”. lol. When your kids fucking hate you. Nice try with the whole “rub your nose in it” stance, but you are acting like an entitled prick because you “work hard” and assume others don’t. Again, get fucked. I’ve put in the work and I hope one day the next generation doesn’t have to. Make sense now fucker? Typical patriarch male thinking he’s gotta do it all when in reality, all we need to do is make some changes and everyone can live good.

        • @Montana Actual You sound bitter because you were injured. Your service to your country is appreciated but your bitterness is not. You are the type of person who I support every day with my hard earned money, but why are you so bitter? Enjoy being what you called me.

        • @Montana Actual Enjoy your 4th, thanks for the “conversation”. I do mean it, I learn and hope to grow as a person with dialog, sometimes it’s combative, but hopeful it’s educational.

      • PS MB I’m gonna be retired at 57 with 2 pensions and a pretty decent 401k. Will also get social security supplement until age 62. Not to mention get free flights and am paid to travel. Work an average of 44 hours a week. You planned poorly and or have no usable skills.

        At least you retired I guess.

        • @TheBSonTTAG Nope. AND NOPE. You guess poorly. I worked 80 hours when had to, that earned me a job that was 32 hours and well into 6 figures. My point was you have to make sacrifices, not expecting to start off as VP…. And with a HS diploma I was a sysadmin, but didn’t start out as one. I earned more than some with masters….so don’t underestimate the value of hard work my friend.

    • Amazon sells firearm accessories. They also allow you to donate a portion of your purchases to several pro-2A groups through Amazon Smile including the Second Amendment Foundations. In fact I just got a new rifle sling this week off of Amazon.

    • Around here Amazon has their own delivery trucks now. I see them everywhere. I used to work at UPS loading the trucks. They offered me a raise when I turned in my notice to quit. Good help’s hard to find.

      • I was in CA for a year from mid 2015 to mid 2016 and they had slaves using their own POV’s back then too. They were technically some sort of private party but the people doing it never looked happy and there were always driving old beaters.

        I did a winter season with UPS as a helper. I’m a disabled vet, I don’t need to work full time to make ends meet, but that shit was gruesome. They treat their drivers terrible and even more so on rural routes. People that work these jobs usually come from even worse jobs – like retail. That also gave me some insight to compare it with jobs like I did for Frito-Lay as an RSE or RSO or whatever the fuck they called it. These idiots actually advised me to basically work 7 days straight unless I wanted to work 15 hour days and come in Sunday off the clock. The base was 50 hours because it’s technically a DOT regulated job but in the year I was there, I never saw less than 60. Got old real fast. I made 62k my first year but not a penny of it was worth sacrificing my life for. I had zero down time. UPS goes through drivers twice as much because it’s the same shit and they pay less.

        But that’s the sad reality of it – they offered you a raise which means they KNEW they were underpaying you. I’ve seen it 1,000 times. Anyone that can offer you more money when you threaten to quit doesn’t deserve to have you. It’s modern day slavery.

        • Ahhhh triggered wants a BS government or UAW 40hr/week job at twice what it’s worth. This isn’t france snowflakes.

          60hr/week IS a “JOB”

        • Full rate UPS drivers make more than 65K a year sorry to tell you… try close to 90k-100k plus I get free health insurance and a pension…. not too bad for not having to have any college degree… the job is what you make of it. I work less than 50 hours a week have weekends off and this past peak was barely getting 8 hours a day

        • How inspiring that Neiowa, the closet racist and far right redneck would be all for slave labor. You sheltered fuck.

        • Nah. I currently work as a Fed and it’s 50-60 hours a week for about 60k amd it’s just stupid. I bet all these people going on about how many hours they work and how nadass they are for it are fat AF and get winded on a flight of stairs because they don’t actually take care of themselves.

          You work enough hours a week and not only are you not getting exercise you’re probably eating like shit and not getting enough sleep. Enjoy your dad bod in emretirement.

        • Exactly. But they associate the mentality of wanting better for future generations as “lazy”. It’s pretty cringe. No wonder healthcare, education, and a livable wage is non negotiable – assholes like them think you should have to work yourself to death for it. Worst of all: They are proud to admit it! If that’s the American dream then it’s a fucking nightmare. Whatever, they’ll be dead by the time they rip all the “benefits” from younger generations so they don’t care. This Al Bundy way of life might have worked back then as a shoe salesman “providing” for an entire family – but it doesn’t get you shit now days. One trip to the doctor and there goes your life savings. Worth it tho, amiright?

    • That “cheap chinese crap” isn’t exactly cheap anymore, now that they’ve driven most of the competition out of business, but it’s still cheaply made crap.

  8. So who is really behind this? Did UPS suddenly think this up on their own, or did somebody in a political position ‘encourage’ them?

    • Probably threats of Lawsuits from States like New York and Connecticut.

      Any Company/Industry that does business with the firearms industry can be wrecklessly sued under the Public Nuissance Laws that Blue Democrat States have passed or are on the verge of passing.

    • A question for the TTAG ‘Legal Eagles’ on the 4 “GVRs” that the SCotUS issued on those 4 cases :

      (“GVR” being Grant Cert., Vacate the earlier ruling, and Remand back to the court where that decision came from.)

      By the SCotUS granting certiorari., does that mean when the district court finally makes their ruling abiding by the instructions given in the ‘Bruen’ decision, does that mean it’s the same as if it was the SCotUS making the decision, making it the law across the US and territories like Guam?

      Because if it is, not only is armed carry outside the home expressly constitutional, the so-called “Assault Weapon Bans” would be completely destroyed, and the good people of NY state (and nation wide) can finally get their pistol grips, barrel shrouds, flash hiders, “things that go up”, and grenade launchers back on their semi-auto magazine-fed firearms like God himself intended… 🙂

      • NY gun owners have a nasty fight ahead of them: new laws passed tonight, far more restrictive than before Bruen. It will take some serious work to end all those various existing infringements you listed plus all the new ones. I think it’s doable, but it won’t be easy, cheap, or quick.

  9. Bad enough the workers steal contents of packages containing reloading components, but maybe smart enough not to steal a firearm, so now the corporation will do it in the name of safety. I would send state troopers to arrest the corporate officers and everyone who handled my package if they did that to my business. Stealing is stealing.

    • Maybe all the packages weren’t stolen. Maybe UPS was destroying packages the entire time. I think the majority of the “missing” packages were ammo or

      • “Maybe all the packages weren’t stolen.”

        UPS tracks every item shipped, and gets at least an electronic signature verifying the recipient got said item…

        • “UPS tracks every item shipped, and gets at least an electronic signature verifying the recipient got said item…”

          Yes, and items taken from packages already logged into “the system” will not arrive, no matter the proof-of-delivery logged into “the system”.

          Made a stupid decision on a UPS shipment, once. Didn’t package up expensive coins, and left them loose among other personal items. Carried all the items into the UPS location in an open box not prepared for shipment. Left the box, as is, with the attendant, and went home. That night, UPS showed the shipment had been staged for pick-up by UPS. The UPS packed items did not arrive at destination; the status reported never advanced from the drop-off location. The UPS store said the UPS driver failed to register the tag as being on the truck, so I should file a “lost” report. UPS said the driver did not receive the package from the UPS drop-off location.

          The fact that UPS tracks shipments, end to end, is no protection against “loss” of items enroute.

        • “Yes, and items taken from packages already logged into “the system” will not arrive, no matter the proof-of-delivery logged into “the system”.”

          Yikes, that sucks… 🙁

          All the more reason packages left for, or shipped by, UPS
          should be sealed with tamper-resistant tape.

          I realize that’s cold consolation for you. 🙁

          On a military move decades ago, my dad had his tools stolen during a move, and they were extremely valuable, my grandfather’s machinist tools he used during WW2 doing defense plant contracts.

          The good stuff, Starrett calipers, micrometers, gauges, precision measurement tools.

          Just gone. The US gov insurance payout was nowhere near what they were worth… 🙁

        • Yea I had a package from Amazon a long time ago come up missing. Amazon said “it looks like it was delivered” and refused to do anything. UPS said it was delivered at the doorstep and refused to do anything.

          I won’t claim to have a solution for it, but the fact that packages get left unsecured and considered “delivered” is a joke. I’d rather have a company force me to come in person to pick up packages at their locations than to ever leave my stuff somewhere like an apt complex or some suburban area with a bunch of foot traffic.

        • There was a delivery driver recently caught on camera stealing a package he pretended to deliver. He laid the package down at the door, snapped a pic for company records, then took the package.

    • “Bad enough the workers steal contents of packages containing reloading components…”

      A serious question –

      Why aren’t those companies shipping their wares in boxes sealed with tamper-resistant tape (preferably printed with that company’s name on it ) that makes it obvious the package had been opened?

      • My guess is because shit happens and boxes get damaged and or poorly packaged to begin with – and of course – because they don’t give a fuck.

  10. “your company may be violating applicable laws…”

    In other words, UPS doesn’t know. But they don’t care.
    This is bad.
    I never thought I’d live to see America turn into a Soviet state.

      • Of course, because America was just as Marxist under Nixon. And Reagan. Good Lord, even an idiot like Carter didn’t hate this country like the (D) party does now.

    • They’re afraid of being sued by Democrat Blue States that passed those Wreckless Public Nuisance Lawsuits.

      Any computer that does business with the Gun Industry can now be sued as if they themselves were a Gun Manufacturer.

  11. Well assuming this is new policy it sucks. Looks like I’m not selling anymore guitars or other larger items out of state. UPS shipping for a guitar is half or less than what FedEx charges.

  12. From the UPS site:

    Prohibited Firearms Shipments

    UPS does not accept automatic weapons, including machine guns, for shipment, either domestically or internationally.

    UPS does not accept firearms (including handguns) and firearm parts for shipment internationally.

    UPS does not accept firearms (including handguns) and firearm parts for shipment domestically unless (1) such shipments are in full compliance with all federal, state, and local laws, including, without limitation, age restrictions; (2) such firearms, including any partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver (as defined by 27 CFR § 478.12) have been identified and bear a serial number in a manner that complies with federal law; and (3) such firearm parts within a package cannot be assembled to form a firearm.

    Any item that meets the definition of a firearm (including firearm mufflers or silencers) or a “frame” or “receiver” under federal law (including any partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver as defined by 27 CFR § 478.12) must be identified and bear a serial number in satisfaction of the requirements for identifying such items under federal law, including 27 CFR § 478.92 and/or 27 CFR § 479.102, regardless of whether any such items are otherwise exempt from or not subject to identification requirements under applicable law. This prohibition applies even before the effective date of 27 CFR § 478.12.

    • “From the UPS site:

      Based on that published statement, UPS must refuse all shipment of firearms and parts from all customers, because UPS has no way to determine at the point of collection whether firearms and parts are from a person violating the UPS policy.

      To suspect, without evidence, that someone is violating UPS firearms policy, means all customers must be suspected of the same. Ergo, no use of UPS for firearm shipments, and a mandate on UPS to refuse, at point of collection, to accept any shipment of firearms and parts, without exception.

      • “Ergo, no use of UPS for firearm shipments, and a mandate on UPS to refuse, at point of collection, to accept any shipment of firearms and parts, without exception.”

        Sounds like a nice lawsuit for violating someone’s civil rights to stop crap like that.

        I believe around 50,000 dollars is a common settlement for violations like that, like intimate roadside ‘frisks’ by cops doing traffic stops.

        That’s like 3 drums of bulk 5.56 ball ammo shipped in 55-gallon steel drums.

        Sweet! 🙂

        • UPS, FedEx, DHL, whatever…

          All should be required to allow no prepackaged items to be presented for shipment. That way, shippers would have physical evidence of an attempt to ship illegal/prohibited items.

          Being required to physically eyeball every container presented would hammer the bottom line severely, but remove all doubt as to whether illegal items are being presented for shipment.

      • It’s more than just UPS policy. This is a direct result of the ATF regulation pertaining to the Definition of Firearms, Frames, etc. Better known as the Ghost Gun Rule, which goes into effect Aug. 24, 2022. The excerpt from the UPS site references the US Code which will incorporate that ATF Rule. UPS is just the first one to get tough about it. But it will impact everyone, including individuals trying to ship a gun they sold on Gunbroker or other sites. This is going to have a devastating impact on the entire firearms industry. If you can’t ship it, you can’t sell it except face to face.

        • The EPA was recently smacked down for overreach. Maybe the same can happen with the ATF. We have a legislature for a reason. Who’s the wannabe dictator again?

      • Sounds to me like UPS needs to have pointed out to them the newly rediscoverd Originalist view of the Constitution/BOR. That they are violating the 2nd by “Infringing”.

  13. Zatar was trying to pull “a slick one” by only partially machining his AR 15 lowers. If they had more marching operations and could be assembled easily without any complex machining operations the current ATF ban would apply. UPS caught on to his scheme and banned him even though the ATF so far has not.

    • Lies. All lies. You are a liar and provided nothing, at all, to back up your baseless accusation they are “partially machining” anything. And your link has nothing to do with Zatar or his company.

  14. @Lamp
    “I believe banks, and ALL businesses, have a right to do business, or NOT do business, with whoever.”

    Fine, but that stance is largely irrelevant* at the moment. Federal law, driven by an SC decision is the political and legal reality, prohibits anyone operating a “public accommodation” from refusing to serve the public based on personal convictions.

    The question before the dock is why the Left successfully uses public accommodation to push their agenda, but “conservative” law firms aren’t using the public accommodation law to punish banks and firms such as UPS for essentially refusing to accommodate the public based on nothing more than the “personal convictions” of UPS?

    *Unless Libertarians are taking the position that it is permissible for government to use the law to harm law-abiding citizens, simply because the highest moral position of Libertarians is that using government to fight government is some sort of support for government expansion into private lives. Keep in mind….”We reserve the right to refuse to do business with anyone” logically leads to unbridled racism, segregation, and oppression of minorities. Does government have a legitimate role in preventing that?

    • “The question before the dock is why the Left successfully uses public accommodation to push their agenda, but “conservative” law firms aren’t using the public accommodation law to punish banks and firms such as UPS…”

      Sounds like a golden opportunity for someone intrepid enough to finance such lawsuits… 🙂

      • “Sounds like a golden opportunity for someone intrepid enough to finance such lawsuits…”

        Indeed, which goes to my question about why FPC, GOA, SAF, etc. haven’t taken up the matter.

        And no….NRA is not expected to do any such thing.

    • The United States Postal Service serves everyone. Pornographers. The gun industry, ect. ect. And because of competition from the private sector like UPS, and FedEx, the postal service has gotten much better, at serving everyone.

      The Libertarians say the postal service should be done away with. And you should be forced to rely on private companies who have said they will not serve you.

      Does this make any sense to anyone????

      • “Does this make any sense to anyone????”

        Indeed it does. If you cannot find a suitable service to fit your needs, you can do it yourself. If it is really, really, like really, important, you must rely on yourself. If circumstances prevent you from performing a desired service, then the need searching for a service isn’t really, really, like really important. Paying for a service is privilege, not a right.

        Everything in life can be reduced to a simple proposition: “There is only do, or not do”.

        I may be wrong, but I am always Right.

        Viva La Revolucion
        Viva La Raza
        Viva Las Vegas
        Viva Max
        Free Willie
        Free Love

        • The people who use this argument lose all credibility. And should not be taken seriously. When people are forced to accept the h0m0sexu@l agenda. And have gay people talk about their sex lives in front of school children. And their promotion of causing confusion between the sexes in the classroom.

          What is a woman?

          Their agenda also includes the destruction of Second Amendment education and rifle teams in the schools. And to prevent school children from learning about their civil rights.

          I understand there are some people who are very upset at me saying this. But those people have been supporting Tom Ammiano, Barney Frank and so many others like them. I have not.

          They are as an anti-civil rights as Bull Connor. And most of them are as racist as Bull Connor. The Second Amendment is for everyone. But it’s only the conservative Republicans who have backed that up with action. By getting 25 states with constitutional carry. And none of those States are run by the Democrat Party. The most racist political party in the United States.

      • USPS recently “lost” about $200 in cash I had sent as a gift….they made a token effort to investigate this but it was a sham…they seem more concerned about somebody sending dog poop to a postmaster in some unknown place…

      • Wrong ironically the Post Office is the only agency the Constitution specifically allows for. Libertarians fully support this because like the Founders we agree there needs to be a reliable and nation wide system to support commerce under Governement oversight.

        You really have no clue what you are talking about.

      • PS Chris Trump was trying to sell the Post Office and privatize it. Is he a Libertarian?

        Of course he believes in the Constitution and BOR about as much as you do, only as long as it fits your agenda.

    • Sam,

      Small “l”, please. I’m quite aware that we have lots of crappy SCOTUS precedent to deal with (and beginning to have some SLIGHT hope that our current SCOTUS may actually deal with some of it) . . . gotta start somewhere. But just as THEY should be made to “follow their own rules” (thank you, Mr. Alinsky), we should have the intellectual honesty to follow our own.

      Besides, just imagine how AWESOME it would be if, say, ten of the largest gun manufacturers, maybe also Midway and Brownell’s, invested in and sponsored their OWN bank, catering to 2A customers? That bank would not only capture the lion’s share of the firearm manufacturer’s and accessory and retail companies, but POTG would flock to them for retail accounts. “That ain’t workin’, that’s the way you do it!”

      • “imagine how AWESOME it would be if, say, ten of the largest gun manufacturers, maybe also Midway and Brownell’s, invested in and sponsored their OWN bank, catering to 2A customers? ”

        The business calculus is probably something like: “There are not enough activist 2A supporters to make up a market that can sustain a bank.” The companies who are “woke” made the business case that loss of revenue from the non-woke is trivial, and targeting the non-woke attracts even more business than would be lost.

        Gun owners are not the same as 2A defenders, single issue voters/consumers. There are supposed to be 100 million gun owners. If they were all POTG, 2A activists, single issue voters, there would be zero gun control legislation.

        Trump’s new social media will tell us quite a lot about catering any business/service to anti-Dim, Socialist, Leftist, Authoritarians. Trump has the money to keep the outlet alive, but it is more likely that the customer base will not be there for long.

        • Sam,

          “The business calculus is probably something like: “There are not enough activist 2A supporters to make up a market that can sustain a bank.” The companies who are “woke” made the business case that loss of revenue from the non-woke is trivial, and targeting the non-woke attracts even more business than would be lost.”

          Yes, that IS the “business case” they TRIED to make. How’s that workin’ out for them, anyway?? Dick’s Sporting Goods? Disney? Bed, Bath and Beyond? CNN?? No, the universe of relatively aware gun owners is not a customer base – but it’s a damn good start. And there are other industries out there that are facing similar “wokism” – a bank that takes a stand against wokism would probably attract them, as well.

          And in some areas (Montana? Wyoming? Tennessee?) the relative universe of “active” gun owners is probably a fair percentage of the population. I think the “non-woke” can, and have started to, effectively fight wokism. Sure, they need alternatives, but . . . that was kinda the nature of my suggestion. Just like Daily Wire and some others have started doing “counter-woke” entertainment and programming.

          Build it, and they will come.

  15. People need to BOYCOTT companies that follow directives from their communist overlords until those companies dispose of the woke baboons they hired for a board of directors.

    What they’re threatening is more typically called theft and destruction of private property and isn’t it just a bit ILLEGAL AS HELL ?

    • “People need to BOYCOTT companies that follow directives from their communist overlords until those companies dispose of the woke baboons they hired for a board of directors.”

      Fvck a lame-ass boycott, that’s what the Leftist Scum ™ does to cake shops.

      Sue ’em and bankrupt them with a violation of civil rights lawsuit… 🙂

  16. Doesn’t surprise me. I used to work at. UPS and they are a crap company and treat their employees just like another piece of equipment. Namely how much can they abuse them before they break down and need to be replaced. Dam company took state income tax withholdings I didn’t owe out of my check for 3 years even after I filed the paperwork multiple times. Denied my health coverage for not filing in the enrollment window even though I was a new hire and got married in the same month. Both are listed as exceptions to the enrollment window. And don’t even get me started on how management used personal relationships with HR to screw over employees they didn’t like.

    • You can ship long guns and shotguns USPS. Pistols if you are an FFL holder, that may change though depending on how they interpret these latest Supreme Court rulings. USPS is not equipped to deal with Hazmat reasons why you can’t ship ammo, it’s not an anti gun policy, just what they can accommodate.

  17. 2022 UPS® Tariff/Terms & Conditions of Service United States Effective December 27, 2021

    [ SNIP ]
    3.7 Firearms and Ammunition UPS accepts Packages containing firearms or ammunition only pursuant to the following limitations.
    [ /SNIP ]

    [ SNIP ]
    Firearm parts, which do not constitute firearms as defined under federal law (including without limitation Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code), and which other wise comply with federal, state, and local law, will be accepted for transportation.
    [ / SNIP ]


    [ SNIP ]
    3.1 Items Not Accepted for Transportation No service shall be rendered in the trans portation of any of the prohibited articles listed in the applicable Service Guide or the Terms. UPS does not accept for transportation, and Shippers are prohibited from shipping:

    – Replica or inert explosives or weapons that bear an appearance to actual explosives or weapons (except as a contractual service);

    UPS reserves the right, but is not required, to return to the Shipper any Shipment containing a prohibited article. Such return will be made solely at the Shipper’s risk and expense. UPS also reserves the right in its sole and unlimited discretion to dispose of a prohibited article found in the UPS system.

    • The problem with that is that it requires that the item BE a “prohibited item” for them to seize/destroy it. In order to know that it is, they pretty much have to open the package. They are not supposed to open packages delivered to them sealed. MORE importantly, the items in question are NOT “prohibited items” under the laws in most states (hoplophobic “blue” states, like CA, NY, and NJ being obvious exceptions). Whle Biden and his BATFE have PROPOSED “outlawing” parts kits and 80% lowers, they have not jumped through the administrative hoops to actually do it, yet.

      SO, looks like UPS is on shaky ground (at a minimum) on this one.

  18. FedEx has its problems too — they lose guns in shipment to an FFL dealer and send them by mistake to Mexico, where they get seized by Mexican customs, and then FedEx refuses to pay the insurance claim! This happened to me.

    A couple years ago, I sold a $1,000 revolver on Gunbroker.
    I was going to pay my FFL dealer to ship it to the purchaser’s FFL, but the manager told me the store was too busy to ship it (even with the $75 transfer fee they charged, it just wasn’t worth their time, they told me). The FFL manager recommended that I ship it to the purchaser’s FFL using FedEx Express Saver service.

    I did exactly what my FFL manager suggested, shipped the revolver myself by FedEx Express Saver, fully insured for $1,000. I shipped it to an FFL dealer in Montana (which last I checked, was part of the United States of America), but guess where FedEx shipped it by mistake? Mexico — the nation of Mexico! It took me months and about a dozen phone calls to find out what happened to the package with the revolver in it. FedEx customer service was completely unhelpful. I finally got some answers when I spoke to a different department in FedEx, their security department. Their security department finally determined that the package with the gun it had been seized by Mexican customs!

    I had fully insured it for $1,000, so of course I tried to file an insurance claim with FedEx. Not only did they refused to pay the insurance; they also refused to refund my shipping costs. It turned out that despite my FFL manager’s advice to ship it by FedEx Express Saver, FedEx policies (not laws, just company policies) said that handguns (as opposed to long guns) have to be shipped by Next Day Air (which costs about $100 even for a small package). Since I had used Express Saver rather than Next Day Air, FedEx refused to pay the insurance claim.

    I contacted my gun lawyer (a member of US and Texas Lawshield) for advice, and the laws in NJ are a legal trap, a Catch-22 dilemma. New Jersey laws are designed to entrap honest NJ gun owners no matter what we do, as there’s no legal way to resolver this. On the one hand, according to NJ state law, I was probably supposed to report the gun as lost or stolen (I say probably, because it wasn’t really lost or stolen, it was confiscated by Mexican Customs). However, there’s another NJ state law that says that without an IMPOSSIBLE-to-obtain New Jersey CCW permit (which until last month’s SCOTUS decision, was IMPOSSIBLE to get unless you’re a politician or a cop), you can’t transport a handgun anywhere other than to and from a licensed FFL or a licensed gun club, meaning my trip to FedEx to ship it — even though I was following the advice of the manager at my LGS, an FFL dealer — was a felony in New Jersey! So if I followed NJ law on reporting lost or stolen guns, I’d be confessing to a felony of transporting a handgun without a CCW permit, but if I kept quiet and didn’t report the loss of the gun, it would only be a misdemeanor or violation. I’ll let you guess which choice my lawyer recommended (the lesser of the two evils).

    • Holy shit man. What a clusterfuck. I’ve never been fond of DHL or FED-EX.

      And I’m willing to bet that was a calculated “misplacement”.

      Also not a big fan of gunbroker. Ordered some ammo in bulk in new ammo cans and while the ammo I received was the correct kind, the shitbag seller sent me rusted cans and 20 pack ammo inside. When I contacted them they basically told me I should be glad to get anything at all. Obviously, this was COVID time but I wasn’t glad and I didn’t “need” it. I have always had a stockpile.

      It takes a good amount for me to get actually angry, like to the point where I want to physically harm someones throat by knowing it upwards with my hand, but that kind of shit will do it. Deceptive listing, knowingly sending junk, and then a big middle finger to the person that calls them out for it. You know, sometimes sellers will put disclaimers like “not actual item sold” and such, but there was nothing like it. Same listing from a different seller got the right stuff. And GunBroker didn’t give a fuck about it when I escalated it.

      I made about 10 purchases at once on GunBroker, and it was the first and last time. Worse than eBay.

      • Just do a chargeback on your card. I’ve done it a couple times when EBay sellers tried a bait and switch. No need to use Gunbroker’s dispute resolution system.

        The best part?: You have your money and whatever they sent. I got to keep the item one time when the seller ignored my email offering to return it at his expense- prepaid of course. I’m no theif, but if you try and cheat me, I’m not paying for return shipping to you.

        • Yea I’ve done that with USAA before, once. Put that bank insurance to work 😉

  19. Those who advocate the United States Post Office for shipping must not have used them recently. I gave up on the USPS after shredded mail and lost checks, damaged boxes with gaping holes and merchandise missing dumped in my driveway, and one box left behind my truck tire. Complaints to the Postmaster go nowhere, they dont give a shit, and the letter carriers dont give a shit.

    Until UPS went Communist, they were my preferred shipper, and the drivers were far more competent than the Mail Man.

    • Yea there truly is no winning. I got a good laugh at all the people saying “FED-EX here I come”. You might as well put it in your trunk and deliver it yourself.

      Only shipping service I’ve had a problem with it’s people was USPS. Theres a reason it’s called “going postal”.

    • ever notice that ..of late…you’re getting a lot of other peoples mail…while missing some of your own?….should we blame Trump for that?…just askin’….

  20. So, IOW, someone got ahold of the higher ups at UPS and scared the piss out of them. This resulted in a knee-jerk reaction by the company.

    Such behavior is increasingly common across a host of fronts, not just guns. Usually it’s the result of an astroturfed online campaign, something that older execs are not prepared for because they don’t understand how online astroturfing works or that such things blow over very quickly in most cases specifically because they’re astroturfed.

    There was a case of this sorta thing recently based on, literally, a single digit number of tweets complaining about something. I don’t recall the details because, honestly, I wasn’t really paying practically any attention to story #21598762384756213786451823 in this vein.

    In happier news, 28% of Americans believe it may soon be time to take up arms against the government, including 35% of Independents and 21% of “Strong” Democrats.

    So, things are going well to start the month, apparently. Let’s go Brandon?

      • Nah, IMHO shit’s gonna get real wild in a few months though, man.

        SPR’s down to ~25 days according to the DOE itself, White House planning for $200/bbl oil… inbound food shortages, $3T in pensions already wiped out, major quants predicting Dow 8000 (personally I’m not that bearish), continued shortages and inflation, a real question about the USD surviving, crime problems, “SADS” (LOL!)… the list goes on.

        But hey, at least Biden paid another few billion for $3000/ea Covid shots that no one wants….

        • Tth “White House” can’t “plan” what they are going to wipe with after their next BM.

          You want to worry about food? Consider what Obiden and the globalist demtards/RINOs are going to do this fall/winter when millions of Africans/Arabs are starving. The food stocks now NOT coming out of Ukraine has been feeding these areas for years.

        • According to the WH, all that matters right now is securing the Liberal World Order. They forgot to pretend it was about saving Ukraine.

        • @neiowa:

          The White House isn’t planning to actually do anything. They’re planning how to spin what happens. That’s evident from the way they’re “planning”.

          The concerns about the rest of the world, IMHO, are mostly secondary in nature. They have ripple effects to be sure but the real issue you’re going to deal with here, in North America, is that the same basic problems will occur. $200/bbl oil isn’t a recession or a depression, it’s apocalyptic for those in cities and suburbs because their food doesn’t come from close by and must be transported.

          The loss of the SPR as both a physical and fiscal buffer for the downstream petrochemical markets could range from disaster to complete and unbridled shitshow.

          In a more general view, the fact that Lefties are already floating the idea of digital ration cards, a la WWII but updated, should make everyone nervous (yet no one is since even Fox won’t report on the Lefty econonuts prognostications). Broadly such *cough* economic geniuses *cough* seem to fall into two categories, those who like this idea (and argue that ration cards “are money”) and those who see it as necessary and temporary because things can’t be fixed quickly enough to avoid the problem in the short term. The latter probably end up defecting from the Democratic Party in general when they realize how long-term “temporary” means in .gov speak.


          Strange how everything is a wing-nut conspiracy theory until .gov openly admits that the problem is real and worse than the wing-nuts said, eh?


          A major, and perhaps, catastrophic market correction is inevitable. Anyone who looks at a graph of the DJIA over the past 50 years and thinks that that 300% increase in the past ~14 years (which also just happens to track almost perfectly with official debt numbers I might add) is nothing to worry about is a complete fuckin’ idiot on the level of Jim “Buy Lehman!” Cramer.

          When I said, several years ago, that Boomers will be the first ones fed feet-first into the wood chipper I wasn’t joking. Nor was I trying to be insulting. Odd how people can forget my railing against generational warfare the second they see a comment they don’t like.

          I was simply noting the downsides of being on a .gov manipulated fixed income when things inevitably snap. You can see that now. Pensions are taking historic hits at the same time that anyone with two firing neurons knows that .gov “retirement programs” (SS, Medicare etc) are beyond broke. This is against the backdrop of near-historic inflation. When the inability to print money disappears those programs disappear too. .gov’s first response will be to attempt a crackdown, part of which will be squeezing anyone with real property as hard as they can (this will fail to correct the problem and, in fact, make it far worse). Many older folks will, quite simply, lose everything. But hey, it’s only the worst situation since like 1897? I mean, everyone remembers the good times in 1898, amirite? And, of course, it can’t get worse with this crack team we have at the helm…

  21. I bet this is some joker mailing out these letters as part of a bit to mess with people. The wording of the letter is too generic. Also to destroy packages without evidence that there is anything wrong with them would leave a huge liability on UPS. I doubt they are that dumb. We

    • don’t you love it when walmart delivers your groceries to the wrong house then sends you a picture of it?….service economy?…so where’s the service?

  22. Well hell, if a ghost gunm parts ain’t a gunm then someone with some money could start up a fleet of ghost gunm delivery services and make some money.
    Its not like theyd be shipping unicorn printed towels and jars of apple sauce. So it really wouldn’t be that hard.

  23. who cares? the online gun community represents gun owners and gun dealers, and the online gun community has proven themselves, to me, time after time, to be shitheads. so what the fuck do I care what happens? in fact the one who owns this store might be one of the very assholes that shit on me before, in which case I would enjoy watching UPS destroy $30,000 worth of his inventory, hope he has to pay the customers back, and I wouldn’t mind seeing his store catch on fire too.

  24. @Geoff “I’m getting too old for this shit” PR”

    Requiring UPS provided packing tape isn’t good enough. An agreed upon inventory of the package must also be included, and checked upon delivery, where UPS and the delivery customer both sign-off on the package being delivered correctly and completely.

    I, too, lost possessions in military moves, twice. And suffered damage to others. Holding an agreed upon inventory was the only way to process the claims. However, the inventory was only established at the box/carton level. Proving contents in each box was impossible, claiming missing items more so.

    • Were you coming back from Europe or the Middle East and were the items that went “missing” in “military moves” routed through the now shuttered MOTBY (Military Ocean Terminal) in Bayonne N.J. if so that explains the loss. Though highly efficient especially during the Vietnam era and the lead up to Desert Shield/Desert Storm working long hours loading equipment headed overseas some of those longshoremen were known to have extremely sticky fingers and preyed upon servicemen and their familys. The base security, MPs, became so bad they eventually were dumped in favor of Dept of Defense police prior to the base being closed for good.

      • My two moves that resulted in lost items were during Vietnam era: one moving from Puerto Rico to Texas, the second was moving from LousyAnna to Colorado.

  25. With so many and relatively cheap hardware about why would anybody want to assemble firearms, and probaly unreliable ones at that, out of spare parts I just do not get so much about American firearm ownership.
    Are delivery companies really required by law to make physical deliveries? I don’t know but it seems to me that it wouold be perfectly legal to deliver to a central ‘holding’ point as in CLICK and COLLECT by AMAZON. Are delivery companies obliged to declare to the authorities what they consider to be illegal and therefore contraband?
    Does the banning of this trade go against the intentions of the AMERICAN CONSTITUTION as regards the supposed ‘Right to Bear Arms’? Being from the other side of the Pond I have no idea.
    Buitb then I have no idea about the, to me, childish and morbid fascination with things that go ‘BANG’ in the night anyway -and I was a professional Armourer and Smallarms Instructor in the Royal Air Force.

    • “..With so many and relatively cheap hardware about why would anybody want to assemble firearms, and probaly unreliable ones at that..”

      Because we like to build, create , invent, construct ect. Same reason I’m going to start constructing a small pull trailer….”Because WE can!”

      • Because we like to build, create , invent, construct ect. Same reason I’m going to start constructing a small pull trailer….”Because WE can!”

        Reading your response gave me heebie jeebies. All that talk about work. Had to pour my second martini.

        • Once Great Britain – would be warm beer (as Refrigerator by Lucas Electric/don’t work)

    • “Are delivery companies really required by law to make physical deliveries?”

      Yes, in the U.S. If a delivery company accepts a package from a sender for delivery there is a ‘contract’ they will deliver the package as the sender intended. Why give a package to a delivery service if you did not intend they deliver it? Why would the delivery service accept the package if they did not intend to deliver it? Get the point there? Its not rocket science.

      If they for any reason can not or will not deliver a package they can’t just hold on to it (“seize”) and do with it as they please. its not their property but rather property of another they accepted to deliver on behalf of another. They have a legal duty of care and safe keeping for the package until its delivered or its returned to the sender.

      For example, in everyday life if you accepted the loan of some ‘thing’ from your neighbor you can’t decide to keep it and then destroy or sell it, its not your property. You have a legal duty of care and safe keeping for that thing, and if something happens to it you are responsible. Now in life we would work things out with the neighbor if something happened to that ‘thing’, we buy them a new one or replace it in some other way or it may just be a ‘aww… don’t worry about it.” type thing your neighbor says and its forgiven, etc… . But if you purposely keep it and refuse to return it, sell it, or destroy it you are actually on the hook legally because its not your property and various crimes dealing with at least theft at a minimum have been committed. Its the same concept here.

      If the delivery service determines the contents of the package contains ‘illegal items’, their option is to contact ‘law enforcement’ and turn it over to them and let them make the call. But other than that if a delivery service can’t or refuses to deliver a package after they accept it their option is to return it to the sender in the same condition it was in when they accepted it.

      Now, if these packages actually contain illegal items or not is at question. It is not illegal to send or ship these items (those in the article) actually, the items are only illegal if the items do not meet some legal requirement but it does not mean that UPS can ‘seize and destroy’ them’ as UPS has no such legal power to do so, their options are to turn it over to law enforcement or return it to sender. This is a case of a corporation assuming they are above the law and can act as if they have the authority of law to act as they please. In other words large corporations today have become so big and ingrained in society they have started to become their own ‘sovereign state’ free to make up the rules as it suits them and apply that under color of law as they see fit. Under Bruen, constitutionally (the law of the land), the items are not ‘illegal’ because historically in context of Bruen there is no such requirement existed and the term ‘ghost gun’ as being applied as outlawed/banned/illegal is not a real thing and is contrived as actually ‘ghost guns’ in the anti-gun and government definition have existed before the United States became an independent country and before the constitution existed as the norm and common use as just firearms and continued to be the norm and common use as just firearms when the constitution was enacted and when the second amendment was created and enacted. And the term ‘ghost gun’ (and associated, and for parts and firearms) its self officially applied for enforcement of a ‘law’, in consideration of Bruen, is unconstitutional.

      But a court will decide.

    • “With so many and relatively cheap hardware about why would anybody want to assemble firearms, and probaly unreliable ones at that, out of spare parts I just do not get so much about American firearm ownership.”

      Just because its made by the individual with spare parts does not mean its unreliable. Thousands of handguns and rifles are ‘self manufactured’ by law abiding citizens every year from “spare parts” (and without 80% kits) – they are just as reliable as one commercially manufactured. In fact its more likely a firearm assembled from spare firearm parts to be more reliable than your own commercially manufactured automobile. They may not always fancy, or pretty, or have all the ‘bells n whistles’ like of commercially manufactured guns but they are very likely to be just as reliable and when the trigger is pulled they too go “pew pew” just like they are expected to do.

      Sure, one may not be to some objective standard desired, say, sub 1 MOA accuracy and if that’s your gauge of ‘relibility’ then you could say its not reliable. But function wise, self defense wise, home defense wise and general use wise for target or hunting its likely just as reliable as a commercially made firearm. It takes the correct ‘spare parts’ of good quality and some information knowledge that anyone can get and a few tools, and a reliable firearm can be put together from spare parts.

      I’ve put together over 20 AR platform rifles over the years from “spare parts” (sometimes I had to buy a barrel or maybe a lower), and everyone of them has been reliable. With the parts and information available today its almost difficult to put together a firearm that is not reliable, some care in assembly and some decent correct parts and a few tools – you’d need to be a complete idiot to not be able to put together a reliable firearm. Not saying that some of those people put together are always reliable, but the vast majority are very reliable.

      Of course, if you had really been “a professional Armourer and Smallarms Instructor in the Royal Air Force.” you would be familiar with and know that with the correct parts and information anyone could put together a reliable firearm.

      “…why would anybody want to assemble firearms…”

      Well, why would anyone want to put anything together? Lots of RC model aircraft are available but some still build their own. Heck, lots of classic cars are available but some people actually build their own classic cars (we have a guy here that does it, takes a completely rusted out junked classic car and rebuilds it and when he is done you would think it just came off the show room floor, and it runs perfectly and is reliable). People do it for the satisfaction of taking pride in their ability to do it… its a good feeling when you plan out a firearm build, put your time into it, and come out with a nice firearm when done, its that pride of accomplishment, that satisfaction of hobby participation and accomplishment.

      People also do it to fulfill a need. For example, maybe they can’t afford to buy a commercially made MSR but with some careful shopping they can get enough parts to put a reliable rifle together, or maybe a hand gun if that’s what they want, or even a shotgun if that’s what they want, for a home defense or self defense or hobby shooting or hunting need.

      Sure, maybe someone who is prohibited might get some stuff together to make a gun but should that infringe my rights as a law abiding person who is not prohibited? Bad people use cars every year to commit crimes, does anyone tell the law abiding they can’t drive a certain type of car because that type was used in a crime?

      Criminals use knives over 1,300 times daily around the country to attack others (over ~470,000 annually) and more murders are committed with knives every year than with rifles, and there are more injured from knife attacks by criminals every year than have been killed or injured in all the school/mass shooting in 30 years. Yet you don’t hear one word from government and the anti-gun and the anti-gun media, that are suddenly all about ‘public safety’, about ‘assault knives’ and the media doesn’t even bother to cover it most times because its so routine unless its very notable or specifically bought to their attention. But police reports all around the country are full of it, and most of the perpetrators never get caught.

      Have you never had a hands on hobby the product of which gives you a sense of accomplishment or pride? Have you never built anything to fulfill a need? Is your only hobby posting on the internet about all you do not know?

      You have been drinking too much of the anti-gun message kool aid. Yeah, you obviously do not get “much about American firearm ownership” or guns at all.

    • Hey ALJHall, we’re talking about the 2nd A here, stay in your lane.

      “…..Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way…..”
      Learn it, know it, LIVE IT, you pathetic subject!

    • Ah, Albert, poor Albert. Must absolutely SUCK to be a scrote-less subject. I built an AR (from a registered 100% lower) because I wanted to know the gun, and every part of it, thoroughly. Unreliable?? I’ve probably put 3 or 4 thousand rounds through it, with VERY few “failures to feed” or “failures to eject” – and those only when using cheap ammunition. Using quality ammunition? It runs like a top.

      Having completed my first build, I wanted to do another on the same platform, with a more robust cartridge (.300Blackout) because . . . 5.56 is a poodleshooter. I am in the process of a “high-end” build (using .223 Wylde components), which SHOULD be an absolute tack driver (I’m expecting sub-MOA accuracy; pretty damn good for an AR).

      So, once again, Albert the Abject Subject, you are . . . full of shit to your ears.

  26. Parallel economies are the future. The next new thing. This is a golden opportunity to steal 10 or 20% of UPSs entire business. The fallout would be far greater than a handful of gun parts companies. Make an America first overnight delivery company. It ships within the US, does it cheaper than UPS and in the same time. UPS would be a done deal. Sad too, UPS to be a good company but wokeness is a cancerous rot.

  27. Well Albert there are still some among us who believe in sweat equity. Why buy a finished product when you can make it yourself and often better? That is callled pride in craftsmanship.

    You may in your attempts make something unreliable, that does not reflect others skill. If you can’t, you can’t. That is ok. But to degrade others for your personal lack of ability is not ok.


  29. when is ups going to stop shipping surgical and other medical supplies to womens health care facilities all over america
    they may be violating the law too

  30. Chris T in KY
    “The people who use this argument lose all credibility. And should not be taken seriously.”

    Not quite following. Was this meant for someone else?

  31. these companies can make a new account and open a new shipment pickup office so UPS can pick up the packages there, with different company name.

    • But, . . . WHY SHOULD THEY?? Why should they have to?? They are building/shipping a legal product (at least so far and, hopefully, with Bruen will still be shipping a legal product going forward). So why should they have to jump through a bunch of stupid hoops to . . . conduct a legal business????

  32. I suppose this means that UPS is going to compensate all those dealers whose purchases have been “destroyed” If not, that qualifies as theft by UPS, I think.

    • You think that because you’re an idiot.

      When you ship something you agree to abide by their policies which include:

      “3.18 Prohibited Item Fee

      UPS reserves the right in its sole and unlimited discretion to dispose of such Packages, submit such Packages to governmental authorities, or return such Packages to the Shipper solely at the Shipper’s risk and expense.”

  33. The reason the ups rep didnt know about the termination is cause the letters Fake.
    I’d throw it in the trash and not worry about it.
    Then make the right phone calls and change your companies name to Caspers Leggo’s

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