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Nick reported this last night when the audio recording of the police scanner wasn’t exactly clear. It seemed that the cops had planned to burn down the cabin where ex-LAPD and cop killer Christopher Dorner was holed-up. Well, here’s the scanner recording, clear as a bell. At 1:02: “We’re going to go forward with the plan . . . with the burn.” There’s a long pause and then “copy.” Then “wanted to . . . like we talked about.” It gets worse. “Burners [police slang for extremely hot teargas canisters] deployed and we have a fire.” The operator repeats the phrase. Question: did I wake up in Soviet Russia today?

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  1. “When I was on SWAT our view is that “We will always win….even if we have to burn down your entire house by bombing it….we will win”. Period.’

    Gabe Suarez.

    I wonder if Big Al and J.J. are on their way to LA LA land……

      • No it shouldn’t, unless you like living in a police state where Fascist thugs with badges have free reign to be judge, jury and executioner. Everyone in this country is innocent until proven guilty and has an equal right to due process. I’m no lawyer but I would imagine that intentionally setting fire to the cabin is a violation of the aforementioned rights as well as police dept. policy regarding barricaded suspects.

        • Dorner declared war on the police, he killed three cops and wounded two more, in addition to killing the daughter of another cop. Why would you believe for a moment that the cops feel it necessary to take more casualties in putting this to an end? Dorner and Dorner alone is responsible for this outcome.

        • Andy, Because everyone in the U.S. is innocent until proven guilty. It is their duty to try and take a person alive. If they don’t like it, they don’t have to be pigs. They could get a real and productive job.

        • Everyone in this country is innocent until proven guilty and has an equal right to due process.

          AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Clearly you’ve never seen our joke of a “justice” system at work. You are guilty until proven innocent, and even then depending on the charge you might still be deemed guilty for the rest of your life.

      • Does that sentiment likewise apply to the two ladies delivering newspapers who came under a hail of “as it should be” fire from LAPD without warning or their being identified beforehand (to make sure they had the actual perp)? But for the grace of God did they survive – the shots into the back of the pickup indicated an attempt at head shots.

        • USMCVeteran,

          From the many police shootings I’ve seen and heard of, police must practice at being lousy shooters. That’s probably why they have dozens show up and empty one or two 15 round mags. It’s like a dozen cop spray and pray machine gun. When a dozen cops are together there is a higher chance of having one complete brain.

  2. There was never any real consideration for taking him in alive to stand trial, this sort of confirms that. On a side note, what kind of gun is the officer in the foreground holding? Looks like an AR with a mossberg-esque marinecoat. I kinda like it. Any of you well-informed AI have any input?

    • My understanding is that the unspoken rule is that if you kill a cop, you’re going to get killed yourself. Period.

      • Except it’s not about any unspoken rule, especially; they’re making sure he never opens his mouth again.

        What a shocker, eh?

      • No matter the crime, everybody deserves due process. No exception. Forget the “unspoken rule.” In this place, we swear up and down, back and forth on the amendments that give us our rights as gun carriers. What was done here is an injustice, and to justify it by “unspoken rule” is to spit on a constitutional right. We gave Hussein a trial; he was responsible for the deaths of millions of people, and he still saw the inside of a courtroom before he was put to death.

        • Not saying that the rule is right but from my experience is you kill a cop they are going to catch you and there is a good change you wont live to see the court room.


      • This isn’t Cuba, this isn’t China, this isn’t the Soviet Union, this is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA – and in THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA- all people are entitled to due process of the law. The police are not the judge and executioner – their job is to bring the suspect in to face a judge and jury. Burning Chris Dorner alive was nothing more than a “Revenge Killing” – and that in itself is a violation of the Geneva Convention, and the constitution. They have no right to burn anyone alive and I hope the attorney general investigates all of them. In my opinion, those cops that participated in that burning are no better than Dorner. Dorner was a murderer and so are those cops.

      • He had no hostages so they attempted to smoke him out. As they were entering the home the perp took the coward’s way out and comitted suicide.

        • No hostages? What’s the hurry? And why use “burners” instead of less combustible canisters?

          Yours is a nice story which could well be what the cops tell the public. But methinks the tape tells the tale.

        • He needed to be captured (or killed), but I think a certain amount of concern with the way this was handled by LAPD is warranted.

          I feel sorry for the families of the officers Dorner shot, and especially the Quan family who were targeted by a mad man. But none of that excuses disregarding the rule of law. This needs to be investigated, and if excessive force was employed at any stage those responsible need to be held accountable.

  3. I have an ex-cop friend who confirmed that at least around where we live, “burners” are slang for the tear gas canisters that purposely become extremely hot when fired. They are designed for riot use so that rioters cannot pick them up and throw them back at the police (they are too hot to touch). The reason the police have the other, normal kind of gas canisters is “burners” set buildings on fire and they are not intended for use in buildings. . . .

      • Yep, they set grass fires on military ranges all the time. It’s not uncommon to see smoke/gas grenades (as well as other ‘pyro’) banned during the summer months to prevent grass fires.

        While I was stationed at Fort Riley a smoke grenade started a grass fire that burned hundreds of acres.

    • Which can only mean that they intentionally used these hot tear gas canisters for the purpose of igniting the structure, to, as one reporter’s mike records, “burn him out.”

    • I can confirm this from talks with a retired FBI agent. Throw a “burner” into a structure and IT will burn. They are for riot control, out in the open.

  4. Sounds like a murder investigation is warranted. On top of that, if your first resort is to set fire to a rinky dink flimsy cabin, filled with what you have good reason to believe is a cache of ammo and explosives, then the entire California law enforcement community just qualified for irresponsible gun owner of the day.

    • Not sure it’s all that rinky dink. Real estate prices are high in that area and earthquake codes are pretty strict, too…

    • Think of the ecological damage! Where are the Greenies?

      Assuming it was Dorner, he obviously had a planning failure.

      But Libs are like that…all imagination and movies.

      I’m waiting for the “tactical recap and discussion” on Dorner’s actions and why he failed.

      Glad he is dead…wish he hadn’t succeeded at all killing anyone and just wrote a tell-all book and sold it to Hollywood.

      And still, no real discussion from the LSM on his manifesto. Just “guns!” ya know…”guns!”

  5. Sadly, I think there have always been some abusive and murderous actions committed by local/state/federal LE, riot troops, etc. I think one of the differences is that in today’s America most government enforcers are more open and unconcerned about violating people’s rights. High technology also makes it more shocking for the rest of us to view it later and not blissfully rationalize or deny away the government’s side of the story.

      • Negative. Hitler was never elected to anything. He was chosen by the ruling elite, men like Von Papen who recommended him to the aging Hindenburg as a way to quell the violence in the streets. The Nazi Party never received more than 37% of the national vote until after Hitler was appointed chancellor.

        • Germany (Weimar Republic) was a representative parliamentary republic at the time.

          The Nazi party did not need to “win” an election to get the seats. There were a lot of back room deals and odd alliances formed between varying parties in the long run up to Hitler and The Reich.

    • Who here had any doubt of this outcome? I know the playbook; many of you do also. Goes back how far – Attica? No… at least 11/22/63, when we changed forms of government.

      I was thinking a couple hours ago about George Jackson’s supposed “attempted prison break”. They said he ran across the yard, and was GOING TO SCALE THE WALL.

      Only it got better: THEY SAID HE TOOK A HANDGUN OUT OF HIS ‘FRO!!!!

      They think THEY can define reality; we’ll see about that.

  6. Answer: No, you woke up in Fascist USA which is the same as Communist Russia.
    Better to move to your most hated UK.
    There, at least, suspect do not end burned.
    Or maybe Norway, or German, whatever.

  7. I think some people are forgetting what this guy did. He killed a couple officers. Even if they were assholes I don’t think they deserved it. He shot at and injured LEO’s at the cabin. I’m sure they looked at ways to get to him and safest way was to start a fire and force him out. He decided in the end to take his own life.

    It’s not like this guy was fighting for something just. He was a liberal nut job killing those he thought had done him wrong.

    I still don’t see they did anything wrong in how they took this guy down. I’m not a LEO but if it were me I would have done the same thing.

    • And what if innocent hostages were in the building? It wasn’t even his cabin/house. Police should have a right to burn down any building a suspect MAY be in?

      • Well you see, he might’ve had a nuke.

        Therefore, in the interest of officer safety, we had to burn the building down around him in order to take him into custody.

    • If we allow this kind of behavior we are enabling the exact same sort of extra-judicial killing that Dorner committed. Besides, it’s against the law.

      • He could have walked out and clearly did not. He was not going to be taken alive. This was not a Ruby Ridge or even something like Waco. While LAPD’s actions in shooting at people who looked like they might be driving the vehicle is clearly uncalled for and they should be punished and taken to the cleaners by those who were shot at.

        If he had a hostage I can’t imagine they would have proceeded the way they did. I am not one to defend any LEO who does wrong but this was not a good guy.

        In the end it looks like he took his own life anyways so whats the big deal?

        • Two wrongs don’t make a right.

          Criminal behavior should never be a justification for bad police behavior. This includes vigilante justice.

        • And they could have turned off the power, gas, and water and sat there until he did walk out. They get paid no matter what they do. Better they sit there waiting than waste time sitting at a speed trap.

        • And how would they know if hostages were in the building? It is reasonable to think this could have been the case considering he DID have hostages for days. It seems to me that the CA LEOs were more concerned with killing him, collateral damage/innocent lives be damned.

        • Hey, they already shot a 71 year old lady in the back.

          “Top that!”

          “I’ll show you…gimme one of those burners”.

        • Due process is supposed to be afforded to every American citizen, scumbag or not. “What’s the big deal?” Wait till the govt has you in the cross-hairs.

        • You just don’t get it, do you? Like the antis who think allowing the government to ban certain types of weapons won’t affect them, defending this behavior opens Pandora’s box and allows the government to murder anyone for any reason they can dream up.

      • He’d just shot it out and KIA’d another Deputy, wounded another. Deadly force is deadly force. How is fire any less lethal than the rounds they were firing at him? They were well past the force escalation continuim at that point. If he’d been hit and killed in that exchange, that’s ok but smoking him out is not?

        It looks like they started a fire, with burners in the front and according to the radio transmissions by the supervisor, they were expecting him to exit out the back. After killing 4 people and wounding two others, what strategy were the cops supposed to pursue? A protracted siege, followed by negotiations where he draws cops into the open and conducts another ambush?

        Dorner is not a hero. He’s a murder. Yes we are a nation of laws and if he’d have surrendered he’d have been subject to them.

        • We are a nation of laws, that entitle those accused to a day in trial. LE was not concerned at all with innocent lives or giving him an option to surrender. Will you feel the same way if they find multiple burnt corpses in the building as they go through the charred remnants of a family’s property?

        • Yeah, it’s really easy to talk about hanging out waiting on him to get hungry when you aren’t the one at whom he’s taking potshots, and it isn’t your buddy he just killed.

        • Yeah, it’s really easy to talk about hanging out waiting on him to get hungry when you aren’t the one at whom he’s taking potshots, and it isn’t your buddy he just killed.

          If they can’t handle being a professional, they should turn in their badge. That’s why we grossly overpay cops for a very simple job – in (vain) hopes of getting some integrity and professionalism. Anyone who can’t keep their head on straight when their buddy gets shot, is a liability and an amateur – not a pro.

          If we decide we need mob rule, it’s not hard to gin up a hanging party or a lynch mob. Cops are supposed to be public servants of the US justice system, not a kill squad.

    • We’ll just have to agree to respectfully disagree on this one.

      This guy, though clearly a dangerous loon, was not an enemy soldier or terrorist. He was an American citizen who had committed multiple murders and other crimes.

      My understanding was the police cannot simply decide it’s too hard to arrest you and then burn you alive. Apparently, though, my understanding of the law is a bit outdated.

    • He was NEVER EVEN ACCUSED IN COURT. If you think the right to a fair trial is some sorta effin’ FRILLY DILLY, you’re already living in North Korea.
      Shame on you.

    • Theres a thing called due process in this country. Like it or not EVERYONE is entitled to it. If we are here to defend the second amendment then we are hypocrites to ignore the rest. The second protects the rest.

      Yes this guy is a murderer. Hes still entitled, was entitled to a fast and speedy trial before a jury of his peers. I have pulled burnt bodies from burnt buildings in my career, thats no way to die.

      • SO if he went to trial in California they would give him the death penalty if convicted and he would spend the rest of his life wasting tax payers dollars on appeals and not to mention the cost of keeping him on Death row. So in the end he saved tax payers lots of money.

        • The people’s house that was burned down…how was their money saved? And you DO realize that it is more costly to put someone on death row than life without parole right?

        • So our Constitutional rights are predicated on how much they cost? Are you even reading what you are writing?

          Wait, did I get trolled?

    • They took it upon themselves to be Judge, jury, AND executioner. They are NOT a court of law. Ya know… Innocent until proven otherwise IN A COURT OF LAW. Yes plenty of evidence to say he killed cops, plenty to say he was very dangerous. We don’t live in the world of Judge Dredd (at least we shouldn’t by our own laws.)

      If the “unaltered” manifesto is true, they’d have a lot more reason to kill a “cop killer” than just that. That manifesto pointed at large scale corruption in the LAPD if memory serves right. That would mean they’d have even more to lose if he were kept alive and had an opportunity to vent further. Remember how these cops sprayed any vehicle they got wind of that he might be REMOTELY in with bullets before confirming his presence.

    • The State has to prove these accusations before they get to kill or imprison you. Due process means they don’t have the right to summarily execute you.

      • Except in special circumstances like when the Mayor of Philly burned down a whole city block to get some “activists”. (look up Osage Ave.) or the already mentioned Waco, TX fiasco, or Ruby Ridge. The gubmint can change the rules when it suits their purposes, but if you or I decide to change or even challenge the rules, see what happens then. Hey, Dorner might have had it coming, and I’m not all that sad that he got killed, it is the WAY he got killed that bothers me. No trial, no evidence, just governmentally administered death. Even the Atlanta Olympic bomber, the “Unibomber”, the Boston Strangler all got their day in court. I knew when the police started shooting newspaper delivery WOMEN while hunting this guy, that it was a solid gold guarantee that he was a dead man walking, and I am sure he knew it too. Sad that this is happening in our country.

        • Yeah, good thing they didn’t just execute the first guy they “knew” to be the Olympic Park bomber, eh?

          As Jewell was fully cleared before they formally charged him, and they (years later) found Rudolph, that right to trial thingy seemed to serve the course of justice.

    • You, Karl, are who really frightens me. People wonder if our own citizens would turn on one another, ie gun confiscation or the US military turning against its own citizens. It’s folks like you that make me realize that, yes they would.

      Constitution be damned if you feel like I am a bad guy, right?

      • I am not sure what you’re getting at. I support the constitution and would defend it. But with this scum bag I’m surprised by how many people on here just don’t get it. For one it was not the LAPD who burned the house. This guy opened fire on deputies who came to the place to see if he was there. He later killed another LEO. He killed a woman who was not a LEO. How many fathers would not want this guy dead for taking their daughters life? He had chances to turn himself in and go to trial. He chose instead to fight it out. When they tried to smoke him out he took his own life. Cops did not kill him. Would it be better if they shot him instead of setting fire to the place?

        This guy killed several people and got what was coming to him.

        • Karl, how do you know these things? Were you an eyewitness to the events? I’m going out on a limb and guessing no. I’m going to guess that just like the rest of us you learned of them when they were reported in the media. The perfect, infallible media which has given us 475 different accounts of what happened in Newtown.

          I’m not at all comfortable with life and death decisions depending on how well modern day journalists do their jobs. We have courts and trials and due process for extremely good reasons.

          So he deserved to be brought to justice. What was the hurry? If engaging him directly was dangerous, cut the power, cut the water, withdraw to a safe distance, and wait him out.

    • The problem is that individuals are not supposed to be the ones to make the choices. This time many of us see nothing wrong, but next time? What if next time its not such a clear case of justifiable terminal maggotry? What if only a few of us see nothing wrong next time and they are the ones on the scene making the decisions? We are supposed to be a nation of laws. Laws that apply to rich and poor, to David Gregory and to each of us sitting at home watching David Gregory, to the citizens who live under the laws and to the politicians who passed the law and to the Police who are to enforce the law equally. Too many exceptions are made to the law for too many reasons for it to mean what it should.

  8. Here in South Florida we had an entire apartment building burned down by Broward Sheriffs when a man holed up in his apartment. BSO shot in tear gas and killed the man inside as the building burned. They deny that that there was any chance that the tear gas caught the fire and insisted that that man did himself to commit suicide.

  9. Wow! Between this and the guy having his legal stock of firearms seized for no other reason than exercising his 1st amendment right, I am beginning to wonder!
    I can’t say that IF the body they think they found is him I will shed a tear, but dang…

  10. Yes they likely did. It was probably a smoke canister since they emit a much hotter flame and is more likely to catch something in the house. Just my opinion I don’t know but I do have extensive experience with the particular ordinance mentioned

  11. What are people here suggesting? The guy wanted to die. He wanted to take as many cops with him as he could. Are they gonna risk an entry and have more good officers die over trying to give him a trial? No. Take him out. Save lives. People dont notice this was in the middle of a gunfight.

    • My experience with LEO’s is that their mind-set tends to be, “We must do something, and we must do it right now!” May I suggest that they could indeed have waited Dorner out? So what if it took a few more days, or a week, or even a month? How long do you think Dorner could have lasted with the water cut off, a limited supply of food, no heat, etc.? Eventually he would have perished of deydration (about 5 days without water is all it takes), or would have walked out either to surrender, weaponless and with his hands up, or armed, in an “I’m going out in a blaze of glory” mode, and if the latter, the LEO’s would have been able to take him out without criticism.

  12. I used to live in sovied russia, and I don’t recall the police burning the house with a man inside ever. Nazy Germany is a better point of reference.

    • Well when it comes to a cop killer things are just done a different way. Right or wrong I won’t argue – I DO agree with the tactics used. The guy wasn’t going to be taken alive and he wound up (likely with the single shot heard) offed himself like a coward.

      The more information about Dorner that comes out the more it’s evident that the guy was an absolute screwup. Do I think he got a raw deal from the LAPD? Yes I do. There is an unwritten code not just in the movies that you don’t rat on other cops. He did and wasn’t able to prove what he saw well enough to pass muster and was ousted. Life sucks but to do what he did? This isn’t a Hollywood movie.

      He’s gone and the world is a better place for it.

      • I shed no tears for Dorner. The man was a villain. But so too, IMO, were those that perpetrated this act.

        There’s a reason plenty of people didn’t give a hoot about all this: many police agencies in this country are out of control and hire guys just like Dorner.

    • It’s also worth pointing out that the Germans did this not in their own territory, AFAIK, but in other nations as an occupying force.

      If the militarized police look like an occupying army, talk like an occupying army, and behave like an occupying army, they may just be an occupying army.

    • They did a pretty good job of getting some fires started in the Beslan school hostage situation. But that was “former”-Soviet Russia.

  13. The City of Angels turned into Los Diablos a long time ago. Just another reminder.

    It strikes me that in this case, a “burner” was effectively no different than hitting the house with a tank or artillery round. Utter destruction. Wreck any forensics. Dead suspect/tango/enemy. All that mattered was permanently ending the situation.

    • To be fair, they did hit the building with an armored car before setting the house on fire. It is as if they stole the ATF playbook and ramped up the time table.

  14. No, you woke up in America where cops took down an extremely dangerous nut job the best and safest way possible.

    Most folks on this site would not have the nuts to do anything…except complain. The keyboard commandos are coming out of the wookwork again.

    • Urging restraint, morality, and proper respect for the law = being a keyboard commando?

      I don’t think you know what a “keyboard commando” is. If I had to guess I would say you’re probably closer to being one of those than the people you decry.

    • We don’t pay cops to do things the “safest way possible”. They are highly paid and pampered with platinum benefits to take risks. Even if those risks entail surrounding a house then sitting on their asses until the suspect surrenders. You want to do things the “safest way possible” maybe we need to start cutting pay, ending benefits and making sure they don’t touch a dime of pension till they turn 65.

    • Jospeh,

      LE nuts shot up two women delivering newspapers and wounded a man who was not associated with Dorner. Most if not all the folks on this site would most likely never do that. Only a slave who does not realize he is a slave believes government is above the law. Many mindless moXons have given their lives for manipulative politicians and bogus causes. You seem like you admire those types.

    • Because it takes a lot of guts to sit on you a;; and munch donuts until you starve him out? A lot of the people on this site are vets. To us, this looks like a military operation meant to kill a target, not a law enforcement operation meant to detain someone for trial. Was he a scumbag? Probably, but now he will never get his day in court. Any officer who finds his duty to enforce and obey the law too onerous, they can always turn in their badge. The scumbags that used incendiaries on a civilian when there was no pressing need to do so should rot in jail with the rest of the murderers.

    • I with Joseph on this one. Which one you would have said “Chief let me go up there and talk him down.” This was a suicide by cop incident. The only question was how many other people were going to die in the engagement.

      Do any of you really believe that there would have been any other ending to this story? If so, let’s here some of your suggestions on how you would have brought Dorner in for justice. I can always use a good laugh.

      • I don’t side with anybody. Just explain to me how you would have handled it to get an outcome where Dorner remains alive, given that he didn’t want to be taken alive. I am waiting for your (or anybody’s response.)

        Most of the critics sound like gun grabbers deconstucting a citizen’s DGU.

        • Had he chosen to suicide – no problem.
          Had he been killed by someone who’s cabin he was breaking into – no problem.
          Had he been killed in a final Tony Montana – no problem.

          Otherwise, he’s innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Period. If that means coppers sit around in armored vehicles for a month, if only to have him eat a gun on day 31, so be it. Justice is served.

          Maybe he would have surrendered. Maybe not. But the police utterly failed to be anything but a kill squad of thugs during this entire event.

        • Another evasion. Since you are dealing with hypotheticals suppose in the end he chose to charge out in a blaze of glory and he kills one cop. That cop is you. Still ok with it?

        • Another evasion. Since you are dealing with hypotheticals suppose in the end he chose to charge out in a blaze of glory and he kills one cop. That cop is you. Still ok with it?

          Evasion of what exactly? You asked what should have been done to get him out and I offered agreement with your SBC scenarios with the caveat that he had to actively make that choice.

          As for your theoretical, I try not to die working or not. As ‘cop’ is far less dangerous than other jobs I have done in my life, and I signed up for the risk of death performing those tasks, sure. That’s life.

          And as the cops have access to all sorts of armored vehicles, the chances of that happening would be infinitesimally small.

        • Another n0n answer. So I guess the your real answer to the hypothetical is no, you are not willing to die for the principal. Well neitherr were any of the other cops.

          One last post below.

        • Huh? In all seriousness, what in the wide-wide-world-of-sports are you talking about?

          I explicitly stated that I have done far more dangerous jobs than being a cop. I also explicitly stated that although I try to avoid dying doing the job, it’s still a risk. Which in no way means I wouldn’t do the job.

          How in the fvck is that a “non-answer”? Are you unable to read and comprehend?

    • Joseph: If their job was to “take down” the guy, then they did, but not in the most efficient way possible, and taking him down wasn’t actually their job. As for “keyboard commandos,” you might want to control that bit, thank you. For all the cheer-leading of these “highly trained” LEO’s “acting as brothers” by various politicians and TV Team voyeurs, our money has been wasted and our laws violated. We have the technology to force a lone fugitive trapped in a single family dwelling to surrender (or toast himself without a fire). It just wasn’t used. The beauty of an armored vehicle in the situation is that the delivery of gases can be made a safe non-incendiary procedure. Flooding the house with very intense pepper (or CS) can be done safely with an under the door or through the window house extended from the armored vehicle from behind cover with a standard extension arm. The 1 lb canisters and suitable hoses are available from several police supply companies, though a garden house and some duct tape will work, if you have the gas tanks: Intentionally setting a fire while at the same time filling the house with CS gas is very unlikely to get someone to the door. I have no doubt they realized that. The ATF could have advised them, since they were the obvious group with experience in the matter, and had agents in the area.

  15. No one is suprised by this, right? There was absolutely no way Dorner was ever going to be brought in alive.

    When it comes to “cop killers”, the police will send a message loud and clear: “Don’t FVCK with our gang!”

  16. Had Dorner wished to surrender after the shootings in LA he could have talked to a lawyer and arranged to surrender at a news station with the cameras rolling. Dorner wanted to die after doing as much damage as possible. With all his training and weapons and skill he only managed to kill 4 people. 2 innocent citizens and 2 cops. The worlds a better place without Dorner.

    Now, as to the legality of the actions taken by the cops that got him. Due process is supposed to work for all, including the cops. I haven’t heard yet of the results of any investigation of the shootings during the man hunt and I haven’t heard yet of any investigations started into his fatal last fight.

    I’ll wait and see what, if anything comes from those investigations.

  17. It would be easier for me to believe that the police had some minor intention of arresting instead of executing Dorner if it weren’t for the fact that without warning they fired up two pick up trucks that looked kind of like his in the days preceding.

    Again, I believe Dorner deserved to die. After a trial by his peers in accordance with the United States Constitution. If you condone extra judicial killing in his case, what other cases do you condone extra judicial killing in?

    • Where a United States Citizen takes up arms in a foreign country against the USA absolutely I support their execution by whatever means available – WITHOUT trial.

      • You’re don’t seem to be quite “Highspeed” on the Constitution.

        But don’t fret. If you haven’t done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about. After all, our benevolent masters are inately blessed with god-like judgement, compassion, and vision. You can go back to sleep now.

        • Nope, I’ve spent more than my fair share downrange with 3 deployments to Iraq and 2 to Afghanistan, the last ending my military career. The WORST thing I EVER had to do after King Obama was christened was mirandaize (sp) FOREIGN nationals captured in Afghanistan. I SWEAR I wanted to vomit with the new procedure was handed down.

          Nevertheless I could go on but no need. You and I will never agree and that’s fine. I still believe that anyone who takes up arms in a foreign country against their own country automatically has a bullseye on their ass. That’s the ONLY productive thing Obama has done IMHO.

        • Henry I’m familiar with it. I recall vaguely when the order came down having a rather “spirited” discussion with the team Encyclopedia who agreed with the order.

          Nevertheless he was in the MAJOR minority but we followed said orders faithfully. Still, the mere act of mirandizing (sp) an EC after bagging him was just something that sticks in my gullet a few years later.

          Hell, without the drone program, I wouldn’t have taken up RC Helo flying as a hobby after retirement.

          Thanks for bringing the speech up. Brings back fond memories of a comrade who has since passed on.

        • The WORST thing I EVER had to do after King Obama was christened was mirandaize (sp) FOREIGN nationals captured in Afghanistan. I SWEAR I wanted to vomit with the new procedure was handed down.

          I call BS.

      • There’s a charge for that.

        It’s called treason, as proven in a court of law.

        You go through the motions of judicial processes to make sure honest mistakes do not hurt innocent people, to make sure emotions (fear, anger, hatred, jealousy, pride, etc. etc.) are not riding roughshod over what is true or right. Remember the idea of “better 10 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man be wrongly convicted”? Paraphrasing, obviously, but the point stands.

        You do it right, completely right, all the time, every time, or you don’t do it at all and give up on the idea of having justice, of having rule of law, of having civilization. Condoning, allowing, accepting anything in between is accepting that it is occasionally okay for a person or a group of people to take matters into their own hands. In that case, badges just make it a lynch mob with bling.

  18. Yesterday none of the police scanner feeds would work at all. All the sites were down during the event. Either they didnt want him hearing what they were doing from a smartphone or they didn’t want us to hear what they were doing… you decide.

  19. There is also the Eighth Amendment prohibiting cruel and unusual punishment. Even if it was legal to kill him based on the facts and circumstances, nonetheless, intentionally burning him alive, or even threatening to burn him alive probably violates the Eighth Amendment.

    This raises questions about what alternatives were available and explored before resorting to what, on the surface, may have been blatantly unconstitutional.

    I would note that officers of the state have “qualified immunity” when it comes to civil rights claims. They are immune if a reasonable officer in the same position might have thought the actions were constitutional. But if any reasonable officer would have known the acts were unconstitutional, the immunity is pierced.

    Again, without all the facts and circumstances yet known it is hard to judge. But I find it extremely difficult to believe or understand how trained officers could believe that using fire as either a direct or indirect weapon would be constitutional. If it is known that these “burners” will start a fire, and you think that’s ok, then why not just allow the police to be more direct, and use a flamethrower? At some point, this must have occurred to someone….

  20. Regardless of whether Dorner was right or wrong in his view
    of the LAPD (in reference to his views NOT his actions); the
    LAPD has just made him a martyr for anyone who views
    the LAPD and law enforcement in general as corrupt rejects.
    I don’t know if any riots will happen, but for the foreseeable
    future any altercation with LAPD is going to be ramped up
    ten fold.

  21. Let’s see, guy has killed at least four people, is actively engaged in deadly conduct trying to kill more people…call me a fascist nut job but I think deadly force was acceptable at this point. And deadly force doesn’t have to come from a gun.

      • This attitude also implies you believe everything the MSM told you about this story. I remain skeptical as their track record is somewhat less than stellar.

  22. Next time there will be no need for a burn out. This example is just textbook for a future use of a Drone Strike. Pull all officers back and let a hellfire do its job. I’m tired of feeling like I’m being prepped for crap like this.

  23. Not sure if Dorner’s being a cop-killer was the reason why the cabin was burned down. it was more likely that the cops outside were scared stiff. A sheriff’s deputy was killed in the standoff and another was injured. It was getting dark and that would have given Dorner a chance to escape. This being the case, they deliberately set the cabin on fire – had Dorner come out, they would have shot him, almost certainly. Again, that would have been out of fear for their own safety. A man who had no reservations about killing the daughter and future son in law of someone whom he hated, could be expected to kill as many people as he could. In the end, Dorner took his own life.

    Let’s leave it to the fat swine of the Senate and other luminaries who inspired Dorner to shed the tears. As law abiding gun owners, we have our rights to worry about, and campaign for . . .

    • It was getting dark and that would have given Dorner a chance to escape.

      Escape? What? We’ve spent millions for combo thermal imaging/NV gear. Once nightfall comes and the house cools the TI gear will allow them to see where CD is at every instant. Two sniper teams placed at the two corners on the diagonal of the house can cover everything. There was no possibility of escape. I am completely freaked by the failure to make use of the technologies we’ve paid for. Forget the law. This was just a knuckle-dragger level response. There was NO rush. There was no escape. So they filled the house with CS gas and flames. Sure. Sell off the tech stuff. It was a waste of our money. Fifty guys walking around with AR’s, many M-16’s in sight. “Our helicopter TI gear lets us spot a rabbit in a snowstorm” they said. Did you hear it? This was a low-tech murder. A waste of a house. A made-for-TV spectacle. A third-world approach to a cornered perp.

      • Yeah, the FLIR on modern cop choppers is very impressive stuff. The last generation was darn good, and it’s been littering salvage houses and ebay for years.

        The thought that he could wander off without some heat sig is just preposterous.

        Of course, they may have believed him a bit on the manpads…

  24. William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
    Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
    William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
    Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ’round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!

  25. What’s with all the faux outrage.

    He was a violent armed confessed murderer, and chose not to surrender. He’d be just as dead if a police sniper shot him through head. At least with the tear gas he had a chance to change his mind and give up.

    • Hell, during Waco, the whack jobs were given 51 days to surrender before Act II of the shitstorm began.

  26. The cops had to destroy the cabin in order to save it.

    OTOH, does anyone actually think that Dorner would allow himself to be taken alive? I don’t. He wanted to go out like Cody Jarrett, and he did. “Made it, Ma. Top of the world!”

  27. America is a “lunatic State!” Kids’ being murdered for no reason an people are more concerned with their 2nd-amendment right to bear arms-SICK! Now this ex-cop goes on a killing rampage…I don’t agree with the actions on his part. But, i definitely have a big problem with the actions of the police (judge, jury & executioner)-SICK! As a once proud commando (Rangers) i’m ashamed to be an American. The world is watching @ our hypocrisy of due process…LUNATIC STATE!

  28. I have no doubt the intent of the police on the scanner was to burn down the cabin. It was clear that they would kill Dorner, no matter what the circumstances were. But listening to the scanner recording, it is VERY clear that they stated “We’re going to go forward with the plan . . . with the burnER” as opposed to “the burn” as you wrote. There is no need to embellish what was said.

  29. This reminds me of a line from some movie with pirates.

    They were making a fellow walk the plank and the pirate captain said “for liability purposes it is the sea that will kill you, not us.”

    See, the fire killed him. Not the cops.

    I hope they use that defense on camera. Not enough people (for whatever reason) really understand how sick the institution of law enforcement is.

  30. Though this incident might be the light bulb turning on for some, it pretty much is old hat. Let me go back a couple of decades and you’ll can Google them the rest of the nite.

    Check out how the Symbionese Liberation Army met their end in Calif. They were the ones who kidnapped Patty Hearst. “Tear gas” deployed. Burned house to ground.

    Check out how the Philly PD handled the group MOVE by dropping a bomb from helo that leveled a city block.

    Check out how the LA police handled the wounded North Hollywood shootout victim.

    Check out Waco.

    Check out Ruby Ridge.

    If the military did what the police routinely do, they would be in Fort Leavenworth for life.

  31. It was an operation designed to arrest the turd. When he resisted with deadly force, all bets were off. He got what he asked for. He’s dead….some people just need killin’.

    And for you keyboard commandos accusing me of being same…been a cop for 40 years this past December and have been in 6 incidents where shots were fired, both by me and bad guys. I don’t entertain ideas by those who’ve not been there.

    • I hear you. Sitting around and getting shot at doesn’t seem like a good option to me. The police screwing up in the other incidents does not necessarily mean that they did so in this one. Dorner could have called a press conference and surrendered. Any media outlet would’ve eaten that up. I think most TTAGers would have made similar actions, under fire, if their co-workers were being shot to death.

      Self defense tip: don’t murder, carjack, murder, shoot at police, and murder some more and your cabin won’t be set on fire. Seems pretty simple to me. And if there was gross misconduct on the part of the police, and other reasonable options were not considered, I’ll eat those words. I know that I’m not perfect, but I am going to use lethal force when police officers around me are getting shot and killed if I can responsibly do so. I’ve waited out suspects when that is appropriate, and I’ve used physical force and weapons when they were appropriate.

      The police had some bad shootings prior to this, and I’m not defending those. Judge each incident intelligently and independently, folks. And if you think police are going to sit around while being shot and killed, being reasonable isn’t your thing.

    • Six incidents where shot(s) were fired in 40 years? That’s not two weeks worth of work in a war zone infantry or chopper job. As for trying to capture Dorner alive, it has nothing to do with what Dorner “asked for.” It is our demand, the citizens’, that alleged murderers be brought to trial if possible. It isn’t only for the protection of the alleged murderer’s rights. It is so that we can can impose our law and punishment upon him. We are loath to leave that role to street justice even if a perp wants it. Indeed, many PD’s go to great lengths to prevent a suicide, if they think, apparently, the person is ‘worth it.’

  32. It is apparent that the confrontation was still in progress, he was still resisting arrest and apprehendsion by shooting at the officers present and the use of lethal force of any kind was pretty much warranted.

    But make no mistake, they deliberately set the building on fire and the perp shot and killed himself as a result.

    He chose to stay and die at his own hand rather than escape the flames and surrender.

    Would a better ending have been presented had the cops, by fire and manuver, attacked the house?

    Doubtful, at least one would probably have been shot and maybe killed. Taking down a barricaded armed, resisting perp is not one of the fun things to do.

    I think the cops should admit what was done,state whether or not they knew there was or was not a hostage (and how they determined that) and move on.

    And having been in a number of gunfights both as a cop and as a soldier, I can tell you there were a number of times after I laughed when it was all over as did many of the folks on my side. A sudden release of the endomorphin induced anxiety often results in sudden laughter in relief.

    • Agree with the “laugh after” bit. I remember laughing just at the fact that I, myself, hadn’t been killed, or that my opposite number’s machine gun had jammed so that he could be killed. Has nothing to do with ethics, not evidence of anything except the fear flowing away.

  33. I’m just a bit amazed at the viciousness of the attack. Shades of Ruby Ridge and Waco.

    And yeah, that’s a stainless Mini-14. Maybe the manufacturers have already banned modern rifle sales to Calafornia and forgot to mention it. lol

    Dorner set them up to look like fools, and they took the bait at every opportunity. God help us all!


  34. My ass! You cannot reliably start a fire with teargas canisters. That’s the job of an incendiary – a burner – probably white phosphorous.

    They executed an American citizen on national television by immolation. I don’t care what his politics were, and I don’t care how many people he killed, justice has not been served, liberty and the Constitution have NOT been served.

    • Please don’t post anymore. You obviously have never seen the ignition…. Oh hell you obviously have no clue period.

  35. And of course, the cops did this on private property. Everyone seems to be forgetting that the cabin that was torched was not the property of LAPD… or Dorner.

    The LAPD will have to compensate the owners for that property, because what they did to that dwelling isn’t covered by homeowner’s or business insurance policies: it was deliberately burned down on orders of the LAPD. This comes under “force majeure” sections of most insurance policies.

    And reading the comments of the LEO’s here, I see they’re completely unconcerned about the cost to the taxpayers for this Charlie-Foxtrot, from beginning to end. It’s all about “respect my authoratah!”

    Go ahead. Keep it up. You’re earning public contempt with interest.

    • Woah, Dyspetic. I’ve merely been saying that police should not be taking fire – especially when several police officers and others have been killed by him. I did want him to be taken alive, and I don’t want taxpayers to feel the pain, and never have.

      If there was a better alternative, then lets have it. Lives were being lost, and the decision was made to send in smoke and CS grenades. Those are less – lethal munitions, but they do cause fires. I’ve also mentioned sending in a bomb robot with a negotiation phone, if feasible.

      I wouldn’t die to take a mass – murderer in alive. I would shoot in self defense. If I’m wrong, I’ll fully admit that. Many of the posters here seem completely overcome by emotion. If you want LEOs to risk additional deaths to bring in a mass murderer, then that is your opinion. I don’t support that.

      • the decision was made to send in smoke and CS grenades. Those are less – lethal munitions, but they do cause fires.
        Not all CS grenades start fires, such as aerosol tear gas grenades like Clear Out. The grenades used where specifically chosen to start a fire, or did you not listen to the youtube videos at all?

        If you want LEOs to risk additional deaths to bring in a mass murderer, then that is your opinion.
        I dont want them to risk their lives, I want them to die.

      • There is always an alternative. Pretty easy to get on a megaphone and say: “Thirty minutes. You give up, we don’t shoot and we take you in. After that we burn the place down with you in it.” Did they do that? Of course not! Why? Because that’s illegal. That’s not the way the law works, unless you take the law in your own hands. Which they did, as has been done in this country since forever Nothing new here…..

        • And that may have already been done. Alternatively, pretty useless to get on a megaphone if is Dorner is shooting at you.

      • I want LEO’s to start looking at city, county and state budgets and start asking themselves: “Do we want to keep our jobs?”

        Because at the rate y’all are burning through the public’s money, it’s clear that you want neither your job, nor your pensions.

        LAPD is the single biggest expense category in the LA City budget, at over $1.3 billion (that’s a Carl Sagan “B” — buh, buh, buh billion), with $1.2 billion of that salaries and comp. LAPD is the single biggest line item in the LA budget, by a whoppin’ big margin.

        The City of LA is having major income shortfalls – you can go to the LA Times and read about it all through 2012. The LAPD got a 7%+ increase… after much promising of using the money more effectively. I’ll bet they weren’t planning on the upcoming civil suits from those three parties who were lit up just because they were driving pickups. I’m sure the lawyers already retained by these individuals have visions of seven+ figure payouts dancing through their heads… and, BTW, it’s only February.

        The City of San Bernardino is having major budget issues, and they’re in bankruptcy. The residents of the city have already been advised to “lock your doors and load your guns” by the city attorney (this caused the gun-grabbers to start hyperventilating, but that’s another issue). The County of SB is rather short of money too, and they’re closing courts in outlying cities/towns, as well as cutting county staff. The SBCSD is the second largest line item in the county budget, after the largest line item of all manner of welfare and handouts.

        But from the way the LEO’s in these situations went at their jobs, you can’t tell that fiscal reality has penetrated the reality distortion fields of their leadership. Nope, it’s still full-on Charlie-Foxtrot, damn the expense!

        Perhaps the next time such a situation happens, their leadership should get on the phone to the middle east and ask the Saracens how to effect a siege. They’re been doing it to fortified positions like castles since at least, oh, the First Crusade, and might be able to offer some advice.

        • Absolutely.

          And judge each shooting separately. They are separate incidents. Keep your head. I’m not LAPD, and I called for accountability in the mistaken identity shootings. My comments are there for all to see.

          What I am saying, and will continue to say, is that police officers should not hold a perimeter if they are being shot at. Those rounds can travel several miles. Time is not on their side, and they have already taken casualties. Do you really think the fire killed Dorner? People don’t stay in fires unless they are trapped or already dead.

          Alternatively, if gross errors were made, then accountability absolutely needs to take place. I find it tiring that the guilt of the SO is automatically assumed, when they used less-lethal munitions against someone who damn well appeared to be shooting at them, and had murdered others.

          If TTAG readers expect cops to hold a perimeter when they are being shot at, then their hold on reality is slipping. If you were being shot at, I would absolutely respect your right to defend yourself. Ditto if your family or co-workers were being shot at. If my rights to self defense of myself and others in uniform is not respected, then I’m wasting my time on TTAG. matt already wished more LEOs to die in this incident. If you want to stand with him you’re wcome to do so. I’d rather know who my enemies are.

          I would rather that Dorner had been taken alive, but it might not have been feasible to do that. His accusations may well have had merit – we don’t currently know that, and perhaps we never will. Perhaps people on this website are unfamiliar with someone who will not give up, who will fight to the death. I don’t think it is beyond the realm of possibility to think that Dorner was that type of person – especially considering his murderous past.

    • LAPD was not on the scene moron-San Bernardino Sheriffs office. Or perhaps the LAPD Hit Squad was allowed to join. Maybe the X-Men too.

  36. Six shooting incidents in forty years is no reflection on “work” sir. There were Many others, sometimes night after night, when I didn’t shoot when I could have legally done so, in an effort NOT to shoot someone, and it worked many many times. I put My ass on the line to do this. Go lecture someone else.

  37. I’m as libertarian as the next TTAG reader, and I carry a special distaste for SWAT teams. That said, I’d have burned the place too. He wasn’t coming out of that cabin alive, he WANTED to kill as many police officers as he could. He’d already proven to be one of the most dangerous fugitives in recent history, every moment that mess dragged on the odds of him finding a way to hurt one more cop went up. The police are just people, what would you have had them do?

  38. I must be in the minority here, but Dorner got what he deserved.

    1) You are innocent until proven guilty… in a court of law. However, you are presumed guilty until your trial. That is why you are arrested, held, charged, maybe released on bail, etc…
    2) Cops attempting to storm the house had been shot at (and killed) by Dorner. Why storm the house again, risk another cop’s life, just to shoot (and kill) Dorner?
    3) Dorner could have stopped the pursuit at any time by simply surrendering. He could have walked up to a news crew waving a white flag.
    4) The owner of the cabin was in contact with the police, and maybe gave their permission to demolish it.
    5) After the fire started, Dorner still could have walked out and surrendered.

    I have no sympathy for Dorner. He chose the sword FIRST, and he got what he deserved.

  39. This innocent until proven guilty being applied to someone who in my opinion gave up his US citizenship the moment he mailed his manifesto and backed it up by killing two citizens and a cop deserved to be treated as a terrorist not a citizen presumed to be innocent until proven guilty.

  40. Most of you believe in a fantasy golden age of frontier justice. You just saw what frontier justice looked like. Do you think that the Earps had a bring ’em back alive policy? Ever hear of the Gunfight at the OK Corral? How about Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow or John Dillinger in the 1930s? It has always been the unofficial policy of law enforcement to shoot first and ask questions later when it comes to dealing with a known killer.

    Many of the posts here mirror image nutcase sites like the Daily Kos or the Democratic Underground. It’s embarrassing to the Second Amendment community to post comments that would pass muster with gun grabbing commies.

    Sometimes I get the feeling that most you think the Constitution supports the Second Amendment instead of the Second Amendment supporting Constitution. You might want to read the entire document. There is a lot more there than just firearms. My guess is that had many of you been around in 1787 you would have voted no on the document.

    Cops are neither good nor bad, simply a necessary component of society to maintain civil order so you only have to deal with a few threats that get through to you. They are only as good as all of us and if their department serves in a corrupt political environment, they will be corrupt. Chicago or LA cops aren’t intrinsically bad. They just serve in a world where corruption is endemic.

    • Actually, the nation got along quite nicely for about 100 years or more without “professional law enforcement.”

      The idea that “we need cops” isn’t supported by historical evidence.

      We certainly don’t “need” cops at the price we’re paying for them, which can be qualitatively quantified as “bankrupting cities/counties/states.”

      • Really? The US Marshal Service was established in 1789. The NYPD was established in 1845. The Boston PD was established in 1838. The Philadelphia PD was established in 1751. So apparently professional police have been around a lot longer than you think.

        • The Marshals were established as Fed Court enforcement and executive branch security – nothing more. They didn’t get their current title until post Kennedy.

          NYPD was a few guys when it was the “night watch” of New Amsterdam. So I guess we’re quibbling over 40ish years?

          Professional police everywhere? Not even close.

        • I made an observation of the realistic power of the Marshals. That’s not moving the goal posts, that’s just stating a fact.

          On paper they may have been all that and a bag of chips, but in the real world, they were basically powerless outside the courtroom and The Capitol.

    • I agree that we need police as a civilized society and frontier justice results in even more corruption and illegality. In fact, the Sheriff becomes the de facto dictator of their respective county in that instance.

      I just dont want a corrupt, militarized police that is blessed off by the state. We need more good, honorable policemen.

      First we need to tell the government to stop dealing drugs in America…think of the children (im not f^cking around; if I hear those drug peddling psychopaths in washington bring up the children one more time, im going to have a heart attack because i laughed so hard at the irony).

  41. I don’t think they should have done this but when thinking about it they did not set the blaze to kill him. By burning the front and waiting at the back they were hoping he would exit the building (whether or not they would have shot him even if he came out unarmed is another questiom completely) He didn’t come out and instead killed himself, I don’t think this is the police attempting to kill him with the fire.

  42. I have rewritten this several times. For some reason I can’t seem to get what I want to say come out right.
    I was going to tell of my qualifications that I felt earned me some type of say-so.
    But I’ve changed my mind . I think I should speak as a regular citizen of the United States of America. First off, I love the Military, always have. I love what it made me feel like I stood for, when I was still active. I also would like to say that I like/love respect Agency work. I also feel like it stands for something in the common mans mind. But,,,I do not believe in Unwritten Laws. Our Constitution made sure of that. It is not too old and it is not too outdated.
    Officers of the law are in their jobs to Uphold the law. Whether they agree with it or not. Period. You do not get to choose who does or does not deserve a trial. You do not have the pleasure of being judge, jury and executioner or you should pay the same price he did. I am far from being a sop ass liberal, but I do know what the public expects from You as upholders of the law. Waco was murder you and I both know it. But if is how the law is to be administered, then every gang-banger, biker, and redneck will feel justified in no longer having faith in our legal system. There is a palatable evil running through the Government now-a-days, but the Real public needs their Officers on their side. nuff said.

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