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Shannon Watts believes that a good guy with a gun has never stopped a bad guy with a gun, but it looks like the events this weekend in Las Vegas have proven her wrong. After killing two police officers in a chain pizza restaurant, the murderers then made their way to a nearby Wal-Mart. Before they were able to enter the store, a citizen named Joseph Robert Wilcox, who was legally carrying a concealed handgun, confronted the murderers. From the Review Journal . . .

After the shooting, the couple headed toward a nearby Wal-Mart, where Jerad Miller was confronted by Joseph Robert Wilcox, 31, of Las Vegas. Wilcox was legally carrying a concealed pistol. Wilcox was unaware that Amanda Miller, who was pushing a shopping cart, was involved in the incident and “lying in wait,” the official said.

She slipped behind Wilcox and shot him at close range.

“He had no idea the wife was walking behind him,” the police official said of the murdered man. “This guy (Wilcox) was not some idiot with a gun. To me, he was a hero. He was trying to stop an active shooter.”

Police said this morning that Wilcox was killed without firing a shot.

After that confrontation, the two murderers killed themselves.

Reports indicate that the two murderers had plans to move to secondary sites and continue their killing spree, but as we’ve seen time and again with active shooter situations the individuals involved immediately give up as soon as they are confronted by an armed opposition. It is tragic that Wilcox had to give his life to stop these two murderers, but there’s no doubt that his actions saved countless lives.

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  1. I don’t know, from what I’ve read it seems questionable that he was actually the cause of them stopping… Heroic effort though regardless

    • Dunno. The track record on active shooters seems to be that they usually suicide as soon as they encounter armed resistance.

      • Yes, but according to the earlier story, “The couple exchanged gunfire with police as they pursued them into the store…” Might that armed resistance be more likely to have prompted the suicide than Wilcox’s unfortunately unsuccessful intervention?

        • So many of these posts, even on TTAG, don’t even sound like the same event. First posts, these was a legally-armed citizen killed in the Wal-Mart. This am, none of the posts mentioned him, but did mention a woman also killed outside the Wal-Mart. Now, th e armed citizen is back, ad no mention of the woman killed. Whoa, the fog of war is heavy on this event.

      • Another reason amateurs with guns are ineffectual and dangerous. As the police actully pointed out (which naturally this delusional gun advocate omits from her propaganda piece) is that untrained folks like this donkey lack situational awareness training of police. Untrained folks don’t realize that in high stress situations like this you actually undergo physiological changes that produce tunnel vision. Untrained folks are also not equipped to deal with the psychological impact of adrenaline, the fear and confusion of an active shooter situation. And untrained folks have no conception of how much more difficult it is to quickly hit a moving target while avoiding civilians, orders of magnitude harder than shooting straight a the gun range… in short him getting shot before he could start firing is likely the best possible outcome when an untrained folks try to play Charles Bronson…

    • Yeah, there’s no reason to believe he stopped them at all. They didn’t stop until someone started throwing lead at them.

      That doesn’t diminish his bravery, though.

    • It was reported that one of the officesr got off some shots in the pizza restaurant. Was there more information that contradicted that account? If not then the armed individual in Walmart wasn’t the first armed person they encountered.

      IMHO, the more accurate message would be that it’s immoral to disarm people by law because it strips them of the ability to defend against these events and still remain law abiding.

    • Wilcox wasn’t their target, though, the police were. This was a case of “Us” vs. “Them”. These two would have killed a bazillion police without remorse.

      But by killing Wilcox, they killed one of their own – In so much as they would have considered an armed citizen as a non-sheeplike and thereby honorable person.

      I think they were still capable of some guilt. I think it was Wilcox who stopped them.

      • That seems pretty doubtful. These two were rabid dogs who had just murdered two cops in cold blood in front of a restaurant full of people. The idea that they were overcome with remorse about shooting Wilcox just doesn’t seem very believable to me.

        • Cowards like koolaid guzzler and cowboy will never be remembered for anything so they have to sully the memory of a man to appease their personal egos. Truly pathetic……

      • These killers were left wing meth users who had videos of themselves attending anon rallies on their Facebook page. Other then not trusting the government it would seem they have little in common with the guy that tried to stop the shooting.

        • Calling them “left wing” is an insanely disingenuous lie.
          ALL evidence is that these were DYED in the wool, tea-party, anti-government, PRO-Cliven-Bundy, far-right, conspiracy nuts. I don’t doubt they were a bit crazy, but MOSTLY they were ideologically driven by far-right crap (from “Obama wants our guns” to “The new world order is taking over”).
          Most shooters/domestic terrorists are either just insane, disgruntled employees, or are far-right (from Tim McVeigh to Wade Michael Page to Bruce Turnidge to whomever) of whom many are anti-abortion nuts as well.

        • These shooters have everything in common with you and this CCH donkey, these are your people man! They love the NRA, they love their guns and they have the guts to take “they can pry my gun from my cold dead hands” seriously (I reckon you’re just jealous because they’ve got the balls to act while you with your tiny pecker only run your mouth and jack off to your big-barreled weapons). They stood in solidarity with Cliven Bundy, they refused to allow the government to take away folks rights to their land, and they used their 2nd amendment rights to enforce this (remember that other NRA slogan about the 2nd amendment protecting all the other amendments) These brave folks are the logical outcome of your irresponsible NRA gun-nut boasts, they are the antithesis of responsible leftists advocating reasonable gun control legislation.
          And leftists don’t use meth you dunce, we have no interest in that sort of ugliness and aggression nor in looking like a zombie… the things you don’t know fill infinite warehouses yet you pose as an authority, it must be embarrassing to be you, to constantly be trying to conceal how little you know…

      • “I think it was Wilcox who stopped them.” then you’re as delusional as leghorn. for god’s sake stop feeding & parroting the NRA party line. truth & reality means nothing to you gun nuts, even in the wake of repeated gun tragedies. there’s a reason the NRA touts the mantra of “only good guys with guns can stop bad guys with guns” but never advises the good guy on how to do threat assessment to determine the appropriate response, including fleeing the scene with or without a gun in your possession. mr. wilcox died because bravado trumped common sense; because he, like you/leghorn, have been indoctrinated to believe that might makes right in civil society; that carrying a gun insures one’s safety; that more guns are the panacea to gun violence. the reason & the truth is the NRA doesn’t care about guys like wilcox. their one and only interest is in being an effective mouthpiece for the firearms industry to insure ever growing arms sales. moreover, the irony of all ironies is that if/when you or leghorn ever find yourselves in wilcox’s situation, i doubt that you would be as brave as he.

    • This is exactly why I don’t shoot spree killers in front of WalMart anymore.

    • Yeah, this article JUST further proves Shannon Watts’ belief (that a good guy with a gun has never stopped a bad guy with a gun). While I think he/she is wrong, this incident is CERTAINLY not an example of a good guy stopping a bad guy.

      I haven’t seen evidence in ANY of the reports that he even DREW his gun…he CERTAINLY doesn’t appear to have used it. He told his friend he was going to “confront” the shooter (which may mean “talk to him”), and then either let down his guard, got too focused on the shooter, or whatever–but he didn’t notice that there was a young woman behind him who was not running scared. This is a really bad self-contradictory article.

    • Dickhead “Foghorn” Leghorn is disseminating yet another BS gun-nut propaganda piece wrongly claiming that the police claim that a concealed carry holder stopped a couple of active shooters from killing coutless more people.

      All of which is of course indisputably contradicted by the actual police report chronolgy on pages 9-16

      First just prior to this CCH donkey engaging the male shooter, the male shooter had fired into the ceiling and ordered everyone to leave, so the CCH donkey in fact saved no lives, these two shooters were only interested in killing police.

      Second this CCH donkey stupidly and pointlessly got himself killed at 11:26. The shooters maneuvered and shot it out with police until 11:49 when the police killed the man and the woman killed herself. So the CCH donkey did not stop them, 23 minutes after this CCH donkey failed to stop the shooters the police stopped the man and the woman stopped herself.

      It’s a shame lying ignoramuses like Nick are allowed to post endless mountains of bullshit, and that millions of Americans are so dishonest and dumb as to imbibe this nonsense, but hey that’s how we end up with the Buffoon-in-Chief, stupid folks with no integrity prefer to seek out fake “facts” on the margins than to look at the actual evidence right in front of their faces… should be banned along with

    • First just prior to this CCH donkey engaging the male shooter, the male shooter had fired into the ceiling and ordered everyone to leave, so the CCH donkey in fact saved no lives, these two shooters were only interested in killing police.

      Second this CCH donkey stupidly and pointlessly got himself killed at 11:26. The shooters maneuvered and shot it out with police until 11:49 when the police killed the man and the woman killed herself. So the CCH donkey did not stop them, 23 minutes after this CCH donkey failed to stop the shooters the police stopped the man and the woman stopped herself.

      It’s a shame lying ignoramuses like Nick are allowed to post endless mountains of bullshit, and that millions of Americans are so dishonest and dumb as to imbibe this nonsense, but hey that’s how we end up with the Buffoon-in-Chief, stupid folks with no integrity prefer to seek out fake “facts” on the margins than to look at the actual evidence right in front of their faces… should be banned along with

  2. I don’t mean to be Debbie Downer here but how can we be sure “there’s no doubt that his actions saved countless lives”?

    His heart was in the right place but it seems like he got shot from behind and that was all she wrote.

    Furthermore, it’d be nice if you threw up a picture of Wilcox instead of the two scumbag murderers.

    • Your question is easy to answer, using the same logic as, “With smaller capacity magazine clips and shoulder thingies that don’t go up, countless lives will be saved.”

      We can’t prove a thing, but can sure claim credit for the act. Which, successful enough, was heroic – although shooting said scumbags from cover would perhaps have been an intervention with a much happier outcome.

  3. I don’t get these whackos, yet this does happen everytime. As soon as armed resistance shows up, they off themselves. Even if they have the opposition outgunned. (Clackmas, anyone?)

    Shame about Mr. Wilcox. I admire his willingness to do the right thing. Not worth losing his life over, but I don’t disagree that his actions probably ended their spree early.

  4. An interesting chain of events and facts.

    Most certainly they’ll be glossed over by the Antis.

    • An unsubstantiated claim is different from a fact, as is an illogical conclusion drawn from actual facts.

      If the untrained donkey had shot and killed them, THAT would be evidence that a concealed carry holder had stopped active shooters.

      In this case however an untrained concealed carry holder with no situational awareness training stupidly got himself killed, and then MUCH later after shooting it out with police the male shooter was killed by police, and the female shooter shot herself.

      This happens at 11:49. The untrained concealed carry holder pointlessly got himself killed at 11:26. For 33 minutes after he pointlessly gave his life away the shooters maneuvered and repeatedly exchanged shots with police.

      AND just prior to the untrained concealed carry holder playing Charles Bronson, the male shooter fired into the ceiling and told everyone to leave, so he didn’t save any lives. You see these were NOT the typical active shooters aiming to randomly kill as many people as possible, they considered themselves revolutionaries acting in solidarity with Cliven Bundy and were intent on killing only law enforcement personnel who they considered the oppressors.

      All of this is indisputably documented by law enforcement, but naturally you will ignore this reality and stupidly claim your delusions are facts as is typical of dishonest ignoramuses endlessly prattling… anyway I’ll let you go now, I’m sure you have some more bullshit to post about the UN taking away your guns you unwitting comedian : D

  5. I think a possible lesson we can draw from this is if you witness a spree killing,

    1) Do not give the perpetrator an opportunity to “give up” or “surrender”. Immediately engage him/her with your weapon upon first opportunity.

    2) After or during the accomplishment of #1, immediately move and find cover. This could both protect you from return fire from the assailant, and can also give you time to potentially recognize if there are additional assailants.

    That said, the man is a hero and his selfless sacrifice may have very well saved lives at the cost of his own. Bravery at its finest. Here’s a toast…

    • I think you’d want to find cover and assess the situation before you open fire. If nothing else just to follow the “know your target and what’s behind it rule.” Only if cover isn’t immediately available or other considerations demand immediacy should you act first.

      • Back stops are for snipers who can fire or not at leisure. When you face a lethal threat at pistol ranges, fire, the backstop be damned.

        • No, you don’t. That is, if you have the ethics and morals that make you different from a criminal, you don’t.

    • Wasn’t that one of the lessons from the first person training series? “Why didn’t you just shoot instead of alerting them?” And watch for the lookout.

    • (Swigs beer)
      I’d also add that it gives you a cover from police until you can tell them that you’re the good guy.

    • In fact the untrained concealed carry holder saved no lives as just prior to engaging the male shooter, the male shooter had fired into the ceiling and ordered everyone to leave. This was not the usual active shooter scenario, these shooters thought of themselves as revolutionaries acting in solidarity with Cliven Bundy and were only interested in killing law enforcement.
      Naturally you have no interest in these indisputably documented facts, you prefer to regurgitate the usual BS along with your delusions about the UN taking away your guns, y’all really are donkeys : D

  6. While we are on the subject. Posting their pictures? Publishing their names? Instead of the media fame we extend to these losers, how about just initials? Or better yet ” two rabid sub-humans” as a more accurate description?

    • Sub-humans!? Aren’t these your people who got killed, an NRA loving couple acting in solidarity with Clive Bundy, killing oppressive law enforcement who want to take away the land and guns of good folks like y’all? You see this is what can happen when you irresponsibly make remarks like “they can peel my gun from my cold dead hand”, some folks take it seriously and have the courage to act. These are your people man, you should be praising them, they had the guts while you sit back and do nothing, and then you have the nerve to run them down

  7. “She slipped behind Wilcox and shot him at close range” — This might be the biggest danger to good guys with guns taking action. Even off duty cops are in similar danger. I remember in LA when an off-duty LAPD (iirc) officer was in the checkout at the grocery, on his way to a BBQ, when a robbery went down ahead of him. He began to draw his pistol from his fanny pack, not knowing that there was robber #2 behind him in line. The robber shot him in the back of the head, killing him.

  8. Let’s just let those two just rot out in the Nevada sun to fulfill their destiny – buzzard bait.

    Still waiting for the outcry from family members about how they were such nice kids, and how it was something other than individual responsibility that caused them to do what they did.

  9. What’s wrong with some of you people? Wasted his life? You sound like anti-gunners and cowards. This man was a hero and knew the risks of drawing and not hiding like timid mouse and I do think that the sight of a gun brought these 2 cowards back to reality and they committed suicide because it wasn’t fish in a barrel anymore.

    • ^This^

      One of their favorite lines is that we are all just playing cowboy, and would shrink from the moment should we ever actually need to draw. This shines a HUGE light on that lie.

      “Why would you deny me the ability to risk my life to save others, like the Las Vegas Hero, Joseph Wilcox!”

      • The typical hero complex with a gun. Do you watch a lot of movies? The guy couldn’t even save his own life with his gun, how in the hell do you get he saved lives?

        • Since the shooters tactical advantage was now gone (the woman having revealed herself), and they could not flee (via a door blocked by a cop car), they chose to dig in in the auto department, the fact remains that they only people to die after Joseph Robert Wilcox intervened were the shooters (in a murder/suicide pact). Unless the Wal-Mart cameras also have audio we might never know if Joseph Robert Wilcox actions caused the shooters to change their plans or not, but the facts are no other innocents died after Joseph Robert Wilcox engaged.

      • So this is what you’re going to hold up as a case of a good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun? This is your counter argument to antis who say that armed citizens are most likely to either wind up being completely ineffective in stopping a spree killer or making the situation worse with their poor judgement? If this guy was a cop and he’d taken the same action and met the same fate people on this board would be crowing from the rooftops about how poorly trained he was and would be using this event as proof that cops are inept and unable to protect us any better than we can protect ourselves. I’m not saying the guy was wrong, I wasn’t there and don’t know anything besides what’s on the news, but even with that little bit of information it’s clear to me that whatever Wilcox’s intentions were, getting shot in the back and dying probably wasn’t in his plan. This is not a win for people who argue in favor of armed citizens as an effective defense against spree killers.

    • Exactly. If I were killed in a similar manner I would consider it to be a “good death”. It’s better than cowering under a table in the fetal position hoping you won’t get slaughtered. If I have to get taken out, this is how I would like it to be.

    • I seriously doubt the shooters saw hero wannabe’s big bad gun and decided to kill themselves. They had already posted online about the suicide pact they made together once they committed to shooting some police.

      • Then they would have ended it right there at Cici’s instead of taking it to Walmart if they planned on suicide. No they were planning to do more and it’s obvious the armed citizen changed their plan. It’s obvious that you have some mental condition where you believe everyone in life is better off curling up into a defensive ball while sucking their thumb in the face of evil. By all means go ahead and do that, I won’t judge you.

    • “I do think that the sight of a gun brought these 2 cowards back to reality and they committed suicide because it wasn’t fish in a barrel anymore.” determined to fulfill your gun nut fantasies are you?

  10. Posted on my FB.

    Carry off-duty, and take out the BG at the 1st legitimate opportunity. My condolensces to the family of this hero. I respect his courage.

    • Similar thing happened at the Tacoma Mall shooting a few years back. Good guy with a gun intervened with an active shooter with a verbal command to “Drop the gun!”, rather than a ballistic command to “Lie down and bleed.” The result was that the good guy is now crippled for life.

      As private citizens, we are under no obligation to take an active shooter into custody. Their first notice that someone has engaged them should be that the lights suddenly became dim.

      • I hear that. When defending the precious gift of human life, don’t forget about your own. If you can.

      • When it’s time to draw, it’s time to shoot. When it’s time to shoot, it’s time to kill. There really is no other reason to draw your weapon.

    • The article mentions that he moved to get closer, I wonder if he was carrying a .22 Mini-revolver, or a derringer, something that is more point blank and wanted to make sure he could hit the person?

      I read AN article that mention that he was trying to get closer, I don’t recall where I read it at the moment. Might have miss heard.

      • …what if in your rush to shoot first you wind up shooting another “good guy” who himself was just trying to shoot the spree killer? What if after this happens the spree killer notices you and shoots at you, and then you shoot him, but not before someone who can’t see the spree killer only sees you shooting, misidentifies YOU as a spree killer, and then you get shot and killed by another well intentioned “sheep dog”?

        • all the ways one can get killed carrying a gun, scenarios the NRA never talks about when spouting their mantra of “only good guys with guns can stop bad guys with guns.” ever wonder why?

    • Lesson learned don’t assume there is only one shooter, otherwise, you end up dead with your gun laying by your side.

  11. Joseph Robert Wilcox is a hero, that’s for sure. Even though he was murdered, he felt it was his duty as a human being and an armed citizen to try and stop something really bad from happening.

    • he would have been a hero had he succeeded in stopping or impeding the killers through effective action. ineffective “heroes” are of no consequence, just ask the NRA.

  12. This won’t stop them from marching on with this story. Unless a concealed carry holder shoots a mass shooter dead — after the mass shooter reaches the matching number of 4 to qualify as a mass shooting — they will not accept that a concealed carrier can stop a mass shooting. Even then, they probably will complain that the concealed carry holder had other options available and did not need to shoot the guy.

    • You don’t get it yet. That doesn’t do it. They’ll just ignore the story if it runs counter to the narrative. Miz Watts has studied her Edward Bernays well! Either one of ’em would have done PR for Lucifer or Beelzebub, if the money had been right….

      • I think they’d run with it, they can use the old damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
        – If the body count doesn’t reach 4 then a mass shooting wasn’t stopped.
        – If the body count does reach 4, then it is by definition a mass shooting, and the concealed carrier was unable to stop it.

      • “They’ll just ignore the story if it runs counter to the narrative.” or misrepresent it as leghorn has done.

    • Explain why there was only one “conceal carrier” who drew their gun at one of the shooters. Where was the poor saps fellow “conceal carriers”? Oh wait, see it doesn’t matter based on fight or flight, most humans will go the flight mode when it comes to a life and death situation.

      • It’s called individual Liberty, it is up to the individual to decide if they want or need to conceal carry or not. We are not going to force everyone else to arm themselves. Obviously he was the only one in the immediate vicinity that exercised that right. But at the same time I’m not going to let you dictate to me how I engage evil when it happens. Do the rest of us a favor next time and either lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

    • “they will not accept that a concealed carrier can stop a mass shooting.” just because you say so doesn’t make it so. where’s the evidence that it ever happened? on the other hand, there’s plenty of evidence and statistics (something leghorn boasts to having knowledge about) to show it doesn’t work. but you gun zealots will go to your grave living the lie the NRA has created.

  13. May Mr. Wilcox dine well in Valhalla tonight. Whatever his failings may have been in life, he died defending others. Let us raise a glass to our fallen brother.

  14. Situational awareness is a bitch…and so was that woman. No criticism from me, it’s hard to NOT focus on the guy displaying a gun. Reports I have seen indicate that she started the fracas by shooting one of the cops in the back of the head while he was refilling his soda. If so, she killed at least one police officer and this guy, as well as shooting her husband. Despite the guy posting his ‘manifesto’, I think we need to look more carefully at who was doing the killing here. Sounds a lot like she was the driving force.

    Agree re: picture, I don’t need to know any more about these skin tags on society. Put up a picture of a hand making a draw from concealment or something.

    Also makes me wonder…if you see a guy in cammies waving a gun in a Walmart parking lot and making threats, is there a duty to warn? Or do you just meekly wait until he passes and shoot him in the back?

    In Texas, you do not have a duty to warn or try to disarm. My bias is to get out of the way and shoot from cover. Yet another reason the Open Carry Texas folks are not people I want to see, if I see you waving an AR around with a mag in place my bias is to consider you a hair’s breadth from a deadly threat…with all that entails.

    Mr. Wilcox tried. God bless him and his family.

    • It occurs to me, if we could set up a donation drive to help out the Wilcox family with the cost of his funeral and such, that would be a great way to honor the man’s sacrifice.

      • There’s been some talk about that on some other forums I read. If anything comes out of it I’ll find out if it’s ok with both the people starting it and and the guys here at TTAG to share that information.

    • It’s my understanding that Jerad was dressed as the Joker, whilst Amanda was dressed as Harlequin, another tricksterish character from Tristano Martinelli’s “Commedia dell-arte”.

      The trickster card is coming into heavy rotation…. this is, by count, the 4th Batman-themed mass shooting.

  15. Lesson: life is a 360° range.

    If the pepper spray guy in Seattle is a hero, then so is Wilcox.

    Ask the family’s permission before putting up the photo, but do post his picture.

  16. Very sad for Mr. Wilcox and his family. It also reminds me of something I was told by my instructor in the very first handgun class I took – If you’re armed and decide to confront the bad guy, be advised that the bad guy might not be alone.

    I don’t want to see Mr. Wilcox used as an example of anything by anybody, other than as a good citizen trying to do the right thing.

    • The lesson that my instructor told us is:

      “If there’s one, there’s two. If there’s two, there’s three. If there’s three, then there’s a whole lot more of them.”

      • so the logical conclusion drawn from that sequence would be “what’s the use of carrying a gun”?

  17. That report is not what about four sources I just read said — that “good guy with a gun” Joe Wilcox started to intervene, the girl killed him before Wilcox could shoot, then both killers continued on with their mission, and did not shoot themselves until confronted by a police active shooter team minutes later.
    In other words, that CCW “good guy” was at best, a speed bump. It barely slowed the killers down, and definitely did not disrupt their mission. The police disrupted the killers.

    • WTF is with the quotation marks around good guy?

      Trying to stop these nutcases was the moral thing to do.

      Robert and Nick, are we having an influx of MDA trolls around here?

      • What makes you know a guy is good just because he has a ccw?
        Besides wishful thinking and groupthink?

        • Uh, think for a second. This man who had a gun felt it was his duty to confront an armed assailant barging into Walmart. Instead of running he decided he needed to risk his life to try and save other people. That’s the definition of a good man.

        • Wilcox was fighting the good fight. You are flat wrong in your analysis. Take personal responsibility and own it.

        • @ koolaid…
          And what makes you so certain your “about four sources” are accurate, besides “wishful thinking”?

        • You mean besides the fact that CHCL holders are statistically the most law abiding group of people there is? How about the simple fact that he stepped up to try and stop a bad guy when it would have been easier and likely safer to run away like everyone else. That pretty much sums up “good guy” to me.

    • Yea, that’s one way to read it.

      Another way is to consider what the two morons were thinking. Here they are, headed into a Wally World, and they meet someone who isn’t a cop who has a gun.

      I wonder if they were expecting that. I’ll wager not. And I further wonder what they were thinking after they shot Mr. Wilcox – “we got the one-in-a-million” or “how many more people are there like this here?”

      The lesson that can be drawn here for people who would insert themselves into these types of situations is this: Women aren’t blameless. The DC sniper situation showed up that it isn’t always just the white male, and the Santa Barbara situation shows us it isn’t always just the ugly/homely looking guy, etc.

      Mr. Wilcox tried to do the right thing. For his effort, he was shot in the back – just as the trained LEO’s were.

      • NV is a shall issue state. It leads the nation in gun duels, depending on how one measures it. And the epicenter of NV gunfighting is Las Vegas, not Reno. This state is swarming with concealed carriers. And at wal-mart? Likely even moreso. So it’s very doubtful the killers counted on not running into ccw carriers. I think they didn’t care if they did. And one could say that their tactics, with the girl laying back, reinforced that theory.Arguably, they expected resistance, and planned for it.

        • Wow, that’s one heck of an imagination you have there! Care to provide some statistics that back up your claims? Especially since I’m sure you don’t live in Nevada.

        • This, So it’s very doubtful the killers counted on not running into ccw carriers. I think they didn’t care if they did. And one could say that their tactics, with the girl laying back, reinforced that theory.Arguably, they expected resistance, and planned for it. is about the only assertion with which I can agree from your comment. It looks to me that they might have planned on the man in front a few paces with her covering his six.

        • “Gun duels”? “Gunfighting”? What year do you think this is, gun-grabber?

          Maybe you were imagining yourself as a city slicker in Virginia City, not LV.

    • Dude, think for a second. Mr. Wilcox DID slow them down. They had to worry about someone with a gun before they could go shooting other innocent people. This hero’s actions provided enough time for the police to respond and corner the murderers.

    • Most of the early reports reported identically, as in verbatim. That means they’re all not only using the same source, they’re all using the same secondary source. That’s hardly multiple independent reviews of the events arriving at the same conclusion as you suggest by mentioning four suposed sources you’ve read. That’s an echo chamber, not conclusivity.

    • oooooh An “active shooter team” Tells us more about “active shooter team”. That has to be way more equal than a citizen. Did they have an MRAP? Did they shoot the bad guys? play with their nifty toys?

      Sounds to me like Koolaid.from a police fanboy?

      I’ll award the medals to the citizen.

    • Quite honestly, it doesn’t matter. He stood up and fought, fulfilling his civic duty of an armed man in a middle of a slaughter of innocents to the greatest extent possible. Even if he didn’t manage to make a single shot, the fact that he tried to do so is sufficient in and of itself.

  18. Shannon Watts: you were saying?

    It’s a damn shame this man died, but he acted as best he could in an attempt to do the right thing. This is what gun owners choose, not to own/carry a gun because it is a death ray, but because it is a tool that best prepares you to deal with a very F’d situation. I truly wish it had worked out better for him.

  19. Let this be a lesson to all those ccw carriers who fantasize about saving the world — when your life or family’s lives are not in immediate danger, think thrice about trying to play Jack Bauer. Unless you have a background similar to Jack Bauer. And yes, Jack Bauer is fiction. Get it?
    And I haven’t even mentioned the legal aspects when your hero plans don’t work out perfectly.

    • How do you know he didn’t have family in the store with him at the time? We don’t have that information available to us yet. Joseph Wilcox did the right thing.

      • “Maybe” he did.
        And maybe he could have run ahead of them to get his family out of the way.
        But he chose to engage. And if he had a family in there, they lost a husband, father, and perhaps breadwinner.
        People can be heroes without sacrificing their lives for their survivors to suffer.
        Im just guessing here, but I suspect the family would prefer a living “coward,” to a dead “hero.” Wilcox appeared to have choices. He probably chose poorly.

        • Well, it IS Monday morning (or afternoon), isn’t it…

          While I can appreciate your defensive stance strategy Koolaid, neither you, nor any of the rest of us, were there, in Wilcox’ shoes, making snap decisions.

        • Not buying it. These are two killers who had just assassinated two peace officers. One of these killers had already fired a shot inside the Walmart. Wilcox instinctively perceived the deadly threat and rightly engaged the killer because there was no real choice. The only possible choice was to delay possibly for a moment more the instant of his death by wavering and cowering before evil, which is no choice at all. He had to act.

        • What did you read about his “family” being in there? Methinks your Kool-ade has STP innit.

    • Actually the lessons I am taking from this is that you have to assume active shooters don’t care if they live or die. Don’t try confrontation, just act to stop the threat. Use every advantage no matter how questionable, such as shooting from behind, from concealment, or when they are reloading. The first threat has to be out of the fight permanently because you have to assume there are others. Time to take more training.

  20. Well that is a shame about Mr. Wilcox. Hopefully there will be some kind of memorial fund for his family and those of the officers, and people can give a little to help them through this time.

    • I’m not seeing anything like that so far, but there absolutely should be.

      What say you, RF and TTAG staff?

      • don’t expect a reply from them, leghorn, or most commentators. their lionizing of wilcox doesn’t extend that far.

  21. Robert,

    Time to Push hard on Shannon’s declaration. Right up there with Everytown Facebook screw up, bring it home and show just how far from reality the whole MOM organization is.

  22. My theory;

    They took over the walmart so they could set up ambushes for the cops. The idea here was as many dead cops as possible, so they needed this gimmick, setting up kill zones inside the store because they knew the police would have no choice but to enter at some point. This plan changed quickly when Joe Wilcox came into the picture;

    “holy shit, Mallory, what if there are more like him?”

    “…I love you, Mickey!”


    • That’s what I’ve also been thinking. IMHO, they were making a last stand at Walmart with the intention of killing as many cops as possible while hoping that the “revolution” begins outside. Also, there’s food, ammo, camping supplies, firearms, and pharmacy under one roof. At some of these Walmarts, the camping, first aid kits, firearms, and ammunition are together in a back corner of the store.

      • The entire thing reeks of mind control. Again. Like the Aurora shooter, who was a PhD. candidate at the U. of Denver, in a (I quote) “mind-brain interface program”!

  23. There may be another, non-gun related issue.
    At least two sources allegedly say that the killers announced they were leaving “to kill cops” to at least one of their neighbors.
    If true, why didn’t the neighbors report that to the FBI or police?

  24. If they were going on a killing spree why didn’t they just shoot up the pizzeria?

    My point is that nobody yet knows what these people were going to do next.