BREAKING: 7 Arrested, 1 Shot During Ferguson, MO Curfew

+1 to Mr. Farago

Watching this as a case study. But yes, setting arbitrary limits on protesters just gives them something to fight against, which is what they want; a target for their anger, some way of saying ‘We’re not going to take this anymore’

I still can’t comprehend what clustercuss has cas caused the popo to allow the looting, not respond to it. Can’t comprehend.

Something about never issuing and order you know won’t be obeyed (and you don’t dare enforce) comes to mind.

@AlleyF : Police aren’t responding to the looting because of concern that taking action would “further inflame” the situation.

My take is that looting/pillaging is a “better outlet” for the anger than attacking police, so they are allowing it.

Cracking down on protesters and allowing looting makes perfect sense if your long-term goal is increased government and police power. You don’t want the protesters’ complaints to be heard, and the looters provide a convenient bogeyman for the inevitable future calls for more (and even better armed) police. Plus, it’s a lot safer to push around people who are chanting and carrying signs than it is to confront the thugs and criminals who are looting.

The curfew just re-enforces the obvious fact that Jay Nixon has no business being governer… Watching his press conference yesterday was so painful. If people are shouting down the Governer during a speech, on what planet are they going to obey a curfew??

Every time he says “Missourah” I die a little inside, wonder if that’s his own bozo scheme or if some focus group worked on just the right amount of “twang”… People around here sound like that for ALL of the words they say or none, it’s sickening.

Spot on, RF!

There is a play book for this stuff. It’s a very interesting read if you like looking into human behavior.

http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/atp3_39x33.pdf

CONTAGION
1-21. Emotional contagion is the most dramatic psychological factor of crowd dynamics. It provides the
crowd with a temporary bond of psychological unity. Lasting long enough, this unity can push a simple
organized crowd into a mob. Normal law and authority are rejected by the crowd as a whole under these
conditions, increasing the potential for violence and panic to erupt.

Yeah Its more commonly known as the mob mentality. Take a group of average people “individuals” who in normal circumstanses would never commit a violent act and put them in a group with the right stimuli and they turn into a violent mob cabale of doing many bad things.

Oh, that explains the conduct of the Police Officer that got all this started.

Time to send a message. LIMITED GOVERNMENT. Make an example out of the officer who fired the first shots causing this all!

Bobby, Have you thought that the cop may have been justified in shooting this guy? In the past few years there has been a huge increase in reported police killing innocent people but lets wait to see if this one was justified. I’m with you on limited gov’t. Clintons expansion of the gov’t and BO’s use of the HS, IRS and EWPA to supress people and business is killing this country and filling it with people like in Fergusen.

Absolutely I have though of the question of if the officer was justified?

The problem is that the way Law Enforcement is being trained today along with the immunity laws that protect them have overreached the scope of Limited Government.

One person on the forum commented that I was upset about a meter maid giving me a ticket. Being involved in Politics for over 3 decades and watching the erosion of the moral fiber of our Government officials goes far beyond a meter maid writing a ticket. How the training of officers exists today smacks of Police State tactics.

The question you raise; Was the officer justified? Under the existing law, he in all likely hood will argue that he had every right to do what he did and was trained to do so. That does not make his conduct morally correct. It does not make the training that officers are getting today proper.

Now let me share something with you. Political discrimination is real. Because I stand for equal protection and prosecution of all under the rule of law, I have had thefts happen, crimes against me. Just in the past few weeks, I was served with a warrant. When I have sought warrants against persons who have admitted taking my property, the District Attorney is on record saying that the offense was a civil matter and refused to prosecute. Again a felony theft was considered a civil matter and the DA refused to prosecute. Now, I was served a warrant for going onto private property, charged with criminal trespass. The property was not posted. The DA allowed a warrant to issue, then recused himself and his office. Wow! A felony theft that was admitted to goes unprosecuted while a frivolous misdemeanor charge of criminal trespass on property not even posted gets a warrant. Now that is a decay of the moral fiber and an abuse of power.

Look what the Gov. of Texas has been charged with within the past weeks? Misuse of the power of his office. Are both issues not the same and is the conduct of my local DA not selective enforcement and political discrimination.

But remember, TN was just ranked as the third most corrupt State in the Nation. And I live in the richest county in TN per capita. Making the County I live in arguably the most corrupt County in the Nation. Even Attorneys who come into the County where I live will say that its like trying to practice law in Alice in Wonderland.

If it can happen to me, you can be next. If it can happen to you, I may be next. If the young man that got shot in MO can be killed and the Law Enforcement official be justified under existing law mainly due to immunity and the training that law enforcement receives, that could be your child or grandchild next! Better think before you back up the decay of moral fiber that prevails in the training of Law Enforcement today or you may find yourself falling upon your own sword.

Or to run to the grocery store to buy milk. Or grab a movie. Or simply take a walk down the street on a summer evening?

Maybe some of these activities are curtailed due to threat of violence from “looters” and “rioters,” but that should be MY choice.

Never have liked the concept of “curfews” imposed by the government.

@JR_in_NC: It’s because we’re all children in need of a nanny in the eyes of government. Apparently, statist America agrees. 🙁

Government believes it has authority to ground the People and send them to their room.

Nailed it, John!

Also see:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/08/17/steyn-on-ferguson-and-police-militarization-youre-doing-it-wrong/

That’s a really good piece. Thanks for the link.

Your right John. If the people can not see what is REALLY happening they are just wearing blinders. This has all been escalated by a POLICE STATE mentality.

America, where Governments power was designed to be LIMITED.

I have lived injustice first hand. Time has passed to put the MAN in his place. Arbitrary conduct without legislative actions must stop. Oaths must be kept. And its time that any person in public office who does not keep their oath be charged with TREASON!

We the People have Rights! Stand and Demand that the Government conduct be restrained and limited as it should be. The whole problem is that the abuse of power is causing this to become a greater problem.

Start with the ballot box, the soap box, then the jury box.

I think they might have meant “target-rich”…. I doubt there are 20 snipers hiding out there.

But…but…that doesn’t fit with the bad, unconstitutional cops / nice innocent protesters exercising their right to assemble narrative…

Good to know, seems as if I need to read a little more about the incident. I hadnt heard much more on the details as far as the McDonalds thing goes, Ive worked as a manager before and would have done the same thing as objectively as possible.

“Wait you guys are with CNN? GET THE HELL OUTTA HERE!”

“After several hours management asked them to leave. The reporters became belligerent and the police did their job.”

Fair enough. That’s not how it was initially reported (and why I asked my above comment as a question).

Is there confirmation of this version of that episode? No offense intended, but with two opposing versions of the same story, how do I know a comment posted by Tominator is more truthful than the initial reporting?

(Not saying it isn’t…just that from where I sit I don’t know which is ‘correct’).

What about the news crew tear gassed on the street and cops taking down their equipment on video? What about repeated police commands for people to stop recording?

I drive a semi for UPS Freight all over the St. Louis area including Ferguson. Several other drivers live very close to where the protests are as well as having relatives or friends that actually live there. A guard at Chrysler in Hazelwood lives there. Two young women that work at a nursing home in Chesterfield work there. I’ve had conversations with these folks and more. I watch Fox2 every morning. KMOX radio has help turn this into the political circus it has become over ratings. 97.1 has had excellent coverage. National coverage has been terrible and IMHO has just fanned the flames.

If you can weed out the racial implications and the blabber over ‘rights’ then one can get an idea of the situation. Rights are defined by the court system and not your loud objections….Every one of these ‘Rights’ are limited by law. You have the right to protest, but you do not have the right to force anyone to listen to you. You have the right to assemble. Once looting, violence and gun fire come into the mix, even though a minority, you lost the right of assembly. There is freedom of the press but the press has no ‘Right’ to put themselves in harms way and ignore orders from law enforcement.

Rights are defined by the court system

Nope. That was and is a usurpation of power. Perhaps the state courts can, IDK, but not SCOTUS. The definitions have been FUBAR already and those definitions would have to be reset to “undefined” before any “defining” could be just.

http://constitutionality.us/SupremeCourt.html

the press has no ‘Right’ to put themselves in harms way

Oh, they most certainly do. We aren’t children. We are supposed to be a free people.

and ignore orders from law enforcement.

If those orders are invalid, they certainly can.

Once looting, violence and gun fire come into the mix, even though a minority, you lost the right of assembly.

The looters did not belong to the minority of residents in Ferguson.

If the majority of residents in Ferguson collectively stood up to the looters like they stood up to Al and Jesse when they tried to panhandle, there would immediately be NO MORE looting. They’re either cowering in fear, too apathetic to act, or support the looters.

@Tominator

This sounds suspiciously like a post-hoc justification . . . the kind that out-of-control law enforcement use all the time to justify abuse and civil suppression.

I would not take this story at face value. The local law enforcement and politician’s handling of this situation has already strained their credibility.

@Jus Bill: Spot on.

OK, I have my issues with both channels….like being Conservative yet taking add money from lawyers….Glen Beck is on my no listen list and 97.1 is getting close. However , like politics, it is whose stench one can stand.

I buffer what I hear with personal knowledge or just do not comment.

The United States has never agreed that tear gas is a prohibited weapon.

No? Then its really funny how tear gas is considered a chemical weapon by the military, all containers are painted the sea foam green reserved for chemical weapons and the military is forbidden to use it in combat.

Uh, ALL military containers (except training rounds) are painted Sea Foam Green. It has a National Stock Number and is ordered by the tank car load. If you stand still too long on a military base you will be painted Sea Foam Green or Battleship Gray. Or polished.

Well said by someone who has never been in the military or worked with ammo.

Well said by someone who has never been in the army nor handles munitions.

@ Jus Bill, Or find yourself doing pushups for some reason.

Or for no reason at all, Brother.

Polished by whom?

Given our track record since 1945, it seems like the statists on the Right aren’t too interested in winning wars, either. Perpetual overseas conflict serves a valuable purpose to those who wish to see the power of government increased. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia…

You folks should know by now that since WW II wars have been fought to benefit corporations. And America officially joined WW II because the Japanese wanted oil, so there is that.

Jus,
It wasn’t just oil. We stopped selling them scrap metal which was their primary source of steel. The also needed every raw material imaginable. Ever been to Korea? The japs raped the country to a point it still has not recovered.

Uh no. I’m stating the difference of OC in and out of context of a state of emergency.

Your immature name-calling aside, I guess you missed the point.

The OC crowd I was referring to (ie. OC Texas) were being stopped on the street for inciting panic, which is understandable as none of them had signage or indication they were protesting. They simply showed up to business’ carrying ARs. Legal? Yup. Did they have to show up “at the ready” and fingers near the trigger? Nope. Smart? No. Again, context. They could’ve just as easily showed up with the rifles slung behind their shoulders and could’ve gotten the message across about OC all the while ruffling minimal feathers. Which is my point — demonstrating how OC (when legal) is perfectly acceptable and not nearly as “alarming” during times of emergency. I don’t recall seeing articles of people protesting the OCers for being “scary” like they do during peacetime, do you?

On the one hand it is legal to OC in some states, yes, but some people seem oblivious to the fact they may be causing the public discomfort or panic. Do you really need to be standing there in tacticool gear with your finger near the trigger when buying your coffee? Maybe so, but you can’t possibly be surprised in the police want to have a word, do you?

That’s the problem with OCing irresponsibly during peacetime with no signage or any indication you’re protesting anything. People should have the common sense to be self-aware enough to OC without causing a panic. And this doesn’t mean excusing people with hoplophobia that attempt to get the police to bother people legally OCing either.

And my case in point for this particular situation is, to my knowledge, no one is being detained for OCing in Ferguson, because they are doing so to defend life and property.

You calling me a fool for your misunderstanding of the English language seems telling though. Carry on.

@ ThomasR

Oh and before you say “oh but it’s legal so doesn’t matter how you carry”, please take a moment and think beyond your little myopic viewpoint for a second. Yes, it’s about your individual rights and the 2nd Amendment. It’s also about public perception and people not wanting to crap themselves in public every time some plainsclothes person shows up where ever with an AR “at the ready”. I’m sure there’s a middle ground to be reached here. And that’s realizing the right to bear arms doesn’t necessarily mean you should carry it everywhere “at the ready” just because you can, because it’s disrespectful to others that have no idea who you are or what your deal is.

Anyone in uniform is less likely to cause a panic when OCing because of the uniform. That’s the reason they wear them. To tell good guys from bad guys. The Civilian Militia doesn’t have a uniform. No one can tell if we’re good guys or bad guys. All we have is context. If there is a shooting around the corner that I didn’t see, and when I come around the corner and see one person down and another standing over them with a gun, who is the criminal or victim? I have no idea. The same goes for OCers.

If I’m in a restaurant and some guy with an AR shows up at the front door I have no idea if that person is a peaceful protester or a potential murdering crazy person.

That’s the dilemma you put in everyone’s head when you tool up with your finger near the trigger and go to public venues. It’s rude, and honestly ill-advised. Again, if you want to protest the 2nd Amendment, bring signage — something that states your intentions. Otherwise, in the eyes of the public, you’re just one trigger pull away from being a potential crazy person.

And is that an unjustified assumption to make on the part of the public towards OCers? Not any more, in light of all the shootings that the media keeps playing over and over so it’s at the top of everyone’s minds. So, just know that, and stop being so surprised.

Actually you righr tj; you being foolish ie a “fool” for coming down on either side of the question of the Brown shooting before all the facts were in was really not part of the my statement about you being the hypocrite for not defending our right to peacely assemble without being harassed for OCing a long arm.

;You say much of the same that was told about OCing a hand gun when I started OCing seven years ago. And none of it happened. No bad experiences with the police and the citizens. No “public panic”. The few that we hear about in the press is just that, a few.

You’re hysteria about OCing a long arm; because that is what it is; is no reason to curtail a right. And beyond the few manufactured and cherry picked photos of OCers showing them in a not so flattering light: is the very reason to continue practicing this right. Because the only way to go back to what was once the norm, (OCing long arms) is to OC a long arm.

So we will just have to agree to disagree tj, which is another reason is what makes America the greatest country in the world.

Thing is… I never said I had all the facts. I have opinions, just like everyone else.

In my post, I said if the police murdered that guy with no justifiable cause, then yes, there is a problem.

If it turns out that the kid assaulted the officer and the officer was justified in his shoot, then that’s that.

And the facts will come out sooner or later. So we’ll see.

—————————————-

And you keep saying I’m against OC. Sigh. I really don’t care anymore if you keep missing the point that others have made for me.

So, I’ll let others speak for me:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/06/robert-farago/jerry-miculek-to-ocerskeep-your-hands-off-your-gun/

I’m glad you’re clarifying your position tj. In your first post you make the the statement “when a police department is staffed with people moronic enough to murder someone in cold blood” (paraphrasing) it sounded like you were talking about the Brown shooting. I’d hate to think you were foolish enough to say such a thing.

I’m also glad ; despite your “sigh”, that you are clarifying that OCing a long arm, at least slung on the back with finger off the trigger, is acceptable.

You see tj; Jerry miculek is a great man because even if he doesn’t agree with OC of a long arm, he doesn’t insult people for doing so and he gives positive recommendations how to do so in a non threatening way.

Long live Jerry Miculek.

So basically the exercise of a right is fine as long as it passes muster with tjlarson2k on the Internet.

Everything else is stupid or irresponsible. Or some other negative adjective.

Got it.

Liberty is a LOT harder to defend than we realize. Nearly everyone want to “control the other.” The big argument is simply about “degree.”

@JR

“So basically the exercise of a right is fine as long as it passes muster with tjlarson2k on the Internet.”
Well that’s one way to approach an opinion, I guess.

“Everything else is stupid or irresponsible. Or some other negative adjective.”
Unless it is stupid or irresponsible. Sure.

“Got it.”
Not really. But it was a good bit of trolling on your part. Congrats?

‘Liberty is a LOT harder to defend than we realize. Nearly everyone want to “control the other.” The big argument is simply about “degree.”’
Re-watch the video. And keep re-watching until you can grasp the points made about presentation, public perception, self-awareness, awareness of one’s surroundings, intent, and putting people on the spot.

“Unless it is stupid or irresponsible. Sure.”

As defined by tjlarson2k. That part has not changed, I see.

You and Bloomberg are cut from the same cloth. You each want certain rights for yourself and to define the rights and acceptable behaviors of others.

YOU can own and carry as YOU see fit, but Goodness help those that disagree with your holier than thou self declared “acceptable methods.”

The worst part is that you don’t even see it.

If you think OC of long guns in Texas is in any way shape or form ‘wrong,’ move there (if you don’t live there already) and lobby to have the law changed.

Until then, I have to agree with ThomasR: hypocrite.

Yep; I saw and read much the same hyperbole and ad-hominem attacks around OCing a hand gun a number of years ago.

Now, after OCing a pistol for seven years; that has pretty much gone away to be replaced with the same hyperbole and ad-hominem attacks around OCing a long arm.

I think it”s time to start OCing a long arm around Albuquerque.

Some of us OCers have been saying that if people didn’t have long gun OC to bitch about then they’d be bitching about handgun OC. Perhaps we should start OCing RPGs. That way, people can bitch about that and leave OC of handguns and long guns alone.

You are wrong. Someone did suggest implementing martial law.

http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2014/08/14/hank-johnson-pushes-to-limit-military-surplus-for-local-cops-as-ferguson-unrest-continues/

Now, not only does his ignorance of what happens under martial law (eg, suspension of habeas corpus, as well as any and all other civil liberties) boggle the mind, but his ignorance of who can call our the MO National Guard makes it quite clear that the Congressman hasn’t the intellectual capacity to serve in Congress.

DY,
Thanks for the link. Just remember ultimately it is wee the people who keep voting these idiots into office and keep them there for life. ;

Baltimore has also implemented a curfew to try to try to control the violence. Just a matter of time before the violence and riots spread to a city near you.

[Psst – Here’s a clue. We ARE a police state. Just ask your cell phone where the surveillance cameras are.]

Hi, Missouri ISAC/Fusion Center! Hope things aren’t too chaotic for you guys. And best regards to NSA V3.

Thanks for the info. I thought something must have happened there in RI, and had seen him allude to that before. I guess that would explain things a bit. I suppose we’re all a product of our experiences after all.

That is an absolutely outstanding point. Over in Israel, when Palestinians start “rioting,” the IDF handles it. In fact, the IDF handles LOTS of things over there. It’s a highly militarized state. And yet, he says nothing about their anti-gun policies, nor the military check points and military tactics used to protect the country.

Out in MO, there are rioters, looters, vandals, and apparently random gun fire. It’s a dramatic situation that calls for a dramatic response.

Not much different than now, really. The only difference is that government currently has the upper hand. 😉

Yep, the best shot wins.

The point is, if any person takes an oath of office to protect and defend the Constitution and fails, they can be called out into a duel. The spineless cowards that cower behind immunity laws will no longer be career politicians if they can’t keep their oath. Somebody with the guts to stand and say that the Constitution means what it says will eventually take the scum out of office.

Better than the ZERO oversight and NO ACCOUNTABILITY we have now.

What is your suggestion to keep our so called Leaders in line when our voting machines are ran using software that is not subject to public inspection?

What, you did not know that that Software running the United States voting machines is Copy Right protected and owned by a private third party making our Elections suspect as NO ONE can review the software for malicious code?

Educate yourself!!!

And the person that takes his oath seriously and is trying to do right gets called out by the professional paid duelist hired by the people that don’t want the gov to run for the people.

Voting is still the best way to get things done. What truly pisses me off is the number of gun owners I know that won’t vote.

Not a single person in public office I know takes their oath seriously, NO NOT ONE. They are in it for personal gain and the paycheck, not the people.

But with an intellectual like you, the fact that our Elections are ran using software that is not subject to inspection for malicious code does not surprise me that you still think the right thing is to VOTE them out of office!

Educate yourself, get real and get to the root of the problem. Oh,I’m sorry, if you try to get to the root of the problem you will be called radical, wacko, crazy, arrogant, stupid, ext….. Wake TF up! Our Nation is already overthrown without a single shot having been fired to overthrow us. But that prediction was made by a Russian Dictator before the United Nations in 1960. Of that I am sure you had no clue. Again, the Government preys on undereducated people. They pay the masses through entitlements. They only hire people who have with a below average IQ and we wonder what the problem is in our Nation?

Look in your mirror, you will see a part of the problem. Yep, your either part of the problem or part of the solution. Its time to DEMAND the return to LIMITED Government. Again, before you speak, read the definition of Liberty and Freedom. After you do, if you still think you have both, go get married. After all, Marriage is the only institution you voluntarily commit yourself to for LIFE. And if you think the People of the United States have Liberty and Justice for all, you for sure need to be institutionalized.

Wow, bobby c. Hyperbole, much? So I’m just guessing here, you don’t vote?

So, other than dueling, as dumb a suggestions as I’ve ever heard, what’s your plan? Or are you just venting cause the meter maid dinged you again?

By the way. I’m old enough to remember the russian dude pounding his shoe on the table. witnessed a lot of history first hand and read a lot more. We had libraries and not pc’s when I was young.

Good to hear that you are old enough to remember when we “had” liberties. Says it all!

Yes, desperate times call for desperate measures. And when the meter maid has no oversight, is backed up arbitrarily and capriciously by the Courts, it is time to take desperate measures to return to the liberties you admit we once “had”.

What happen about innocent until proven guilty? Oh, I forgot the Police officer who fired that first shot got to make the call in the field all on his own without rational reason or cause to be arresting officer, Judge, Jury and Executioner.

When is enough, enough? I say its time now!

bobby c. At which point did I state anything about liberties we once had? You still haven’t addressed the issue of dueling leading to bad guys running the gov because they can afford to hire professional killers to fight their duels.

You haven’t stated what your ideas are except for vague crowd stirring rhetoric. And if a meter maid being backed by the courts is enough to spin you off like this methinks there’s very little reality or balance in your life.

The only plan you’ve come up with so far is dueling. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that you’re not leadership material for any future rebellion or civil war.

I’m thinking we’re in the presence of someone needs medication.

Do you ‘loot’ as well? I’d call you a dumbass….but you got lucky punk.

@Tominator: You’re acting like an internet thug with a bit of keyboard commando thrown in. My statement was simple; if the People are deprived their right to assemble then there shouldn’t be peace. The People ought not accept it. I didn’t advocate looting. You’re stating that the People lack certain rights and you are incorrect.

Its hard not to laugh at watching people who have snot anging from ther nose to the ground while running into trees and buildings.

CS also irritates the skin which is made worse by sweating.