Ammo Review: Seismic Ammo 185gr +M 9mm

Josh Wayner for TTAG

The first time I heard about Seismic Ammo’s 185gr +M 9mm personal defense load, I had to pause and try to understand what exactly I was looking at. I get wacky tips and promotional items all the time, and most of them are gimmicks. I initially figured that this was no different, but after receiving some of it to test, I have to say that there’s no gimmick here.

Jeremy S. talked to Seismic at SHOT Show in January . . .

 

Seismic’s heavyweight 9mm QuakeMaker +M personal defense load (+M means more mass) offers some pretty impressive features.

Some of you may wonder what a 9mm round is doing with a 185 grain bullet. That weight is heavy, even for longer cases like the .357 Magnum. There is just so much bullet present that it’s actually hard to imagine all of it fitting in a 9mm case.

Seismic QuakeMaker 9mm vs standard round

Jeremy S. for TTAG

There really isn’t a reason why it wouldn’t work It’s just that up until now, the technology hasn’t existed to allow for such a heavy bullet to offer expansion at handgun velocities. The manufacturer told me that this ammo was designed with carbine-length barrels in mind, but it’s a good option for pistols, too.

I was initially concerned that these large bullets would be going along at a very slow pace and wouldn’t really do all that much as far as terminal effectiveness. I was honestly expecting 600 fps or something. Fortunately, that was not the case.

To my surprise, my two test guns — a SIG P365 and full-size SIG M17 — delivered pretty decent velocity considering the high mass of the round. My average for the M17 was 905 fps. The P365 came in slightly slower at 849 fps. Both velocities were faster than I imagined they’d be. I was prepared to have them come out of the pipe at approximately paintball velocity.

For comparison, here are the rated velocities for some comparable 147 JHP rounds:

Speer Gold Dot: 985 fps
SIG SAUER V-Crown: 900 fps
Remington HTP: 990
Buffalo Bore: 1175
Federal HST: 1000

The theory and effectiveness of heavy bullets isn’t something that should be foreign to most people. There’s always been a longstanding argument between proponents of one caliber or another, with those discussions typically hinging on capacity versus bullet mass.

The 185 grains of the Seismic 9mm round would on the low end of the weight scale for calibers like .45 ACP. The main difference between a 185 grain .45 and a nine of the same weight is the sectional density and meplat of the bullet.

In theory, the longer bullet will lose less energy on impact and drive in deeper into the target. A wide bullet will lose the majority of its energy on impact and, due to greater surface area, will slow down much faster in tissue.

There are points to both that are worth considering.

The fired cases, while dimensionally the same, are constructed in very different ways. (Josh Wayner for TTAG)

When it comes to the ever-popular nine millimeter round, the typical bullet weight is usually around 124 grains. Most practice ammo is 115 grain. If you’re really a cool guy, 147 grain bullets are about as heavy as it gets in 9mm, but you quickly begin to lose a number of advantages as you get up there.

The 9mm is typically best in a lower weight, high capacity role. That’s not to say there are no good personal defense offerings in the 147 grain class, there certainly are, it’s just that for most carry guns you are not really at an advantage. That’s actually what makes this 185 grain ammunition so interesting.

Despite having massive bullets, the individual cartridges are actually quite light. Part of the technology that allows for such a heavy bullet to be put into so small a case comes from the design of the case itself.

This ammunition uses two-piece stainless steel cases from ShellShock Technologies that Seismic says are lighter and stronger than brass.

Because of the internal geometry of the cases, these heavy bullets don’t actually restrict a tremendous amount of the available powder space. It was my initial concern that the bullets would be slow because, in my imagination, you could probably only fit about two grains of powder in there. This isn’t the case and the resulting performance was pretty surprising.

Gel results with the M17 and P365 were excellent. (Josh Wayner for TTAG)

The most surprising thing about the Seismic QuakeMaker ammunition is that the velocity is not all that much slower than conventional 9mm bullet speeds. And despite the weight, the recoil impulse is extremely low and very smooth.

This would be an absolutely ideal type of recoil for competition shooting as there is very little muzzle jump and both pistols were very easy to get back on target.

Ejection of the cases was healthy and forceful, but the velocity of the slides wasn’t violent. You really have to shoot this ammo to see what I’m talking about. It’s difficult to believe that you’re throwing 185 grains of bullet for how low the recoil is. Physics being what it is, it just doesn’t seem like it should work out like that.

Accuracy was great with the 9mm 185gr +M (Josh Wayner for TTAG)

Accuracy

Accuracy testing showed that this ammo was perfectly capable of grouping with the best of them. The M17 showed excellent accuracy at 15 yards, easily producing five-shot groups about an inch wide from standing. The P365 did just about as well, but was slightly harder to shoot tight groups with from standing because of the gun’s smaller size and shorter sight radius.

I went out to 25 yards and rested the M17 on the bench. Accuracy was about 2.5 inches for five shots on average at that distance. That’s nothing to complain about.

The QuakeMaker bullets showed great hollow point expansion from the full-size M17. (Josh Wayner for TTAG)

Penetration and expansion

Physics dictate that a heavier bullet does, in fact, hit harder. The question is, would the heavier 9mm round perform as well when it hits its target.

Gel testing at 10 yards revealed that the bullets perform as advertised…depending. Average penetration from the M17 in bare gelatin from Clear Ballistics was 16 inches. The bullets expanded consistently well and drove deep to that last inch of the first 16-inch block.

Shooting the Seismic round from the shorter barrel of the P365 reduced the bullet’s expansion causing it to fully penetrate a 16-inch gel block and drop out the other side. The bullets still expanded, just not as much.

Some stopped at the same depth as those fired from the M17 in that last inch of gel, but a few just fell out the back. I would not call this over-penetration in the true sense. Over-penetration is where is won’t stop in three blocks of gel and just keeps going. This is common in hardcast lead bullets designed for bear country.

The bullet material allowed for decent expansion in the P365, but that seemingly small velocity gain in the M17 is where these bullets really need to be. The bullet expansion out of the P365 just wasn’t as consistent or as wide.

The reason a few fell out the back of the gel was probably due to the lack of immediate expansion and thus more retained energy, thus allowing them to drive a little deeper.

I don’t have a way to measure delivered energy, but I noticed that the wound channels in the gel showed that the bullets from the P365 were less dramatic and noted areas of expansion were deeper in and not as wide as those generated by the M17.

While the concept has yet to hit wide mainstream acceptance, it is certainly capable of great results. (Josh Wayner for TTAG)

Based on my testing, I would say that this ammo is better suited to a full-size pistol as, while it’s certainly capable of good performance from a shorter barrel, it’s not optimized for those barrel lengths. You could certainly carry it in a small micro-compact pistol, but there are loads out there that are better suited for 3″ barrels.

The idea of high-mass projectiles isn’t new, but it is in terms of the execution here. I think that Seismic is really on the right path with this load in using a great blend of new and existing technology.

Specifications: Seismic 185gr +M 9x19mm MSRP: $28.98/21 Rounds

Caliber: 9mm Luger
Bullet Type: Jacketed hollow point
Bullet Weight: 185 grains
MSRP: $28.98 (21 rounds)

Ratings (out of five stars):

Accuracy * * * * *
Producing a 2.5-inch group at 25 yards, this load preformed well and was on par if not better than many 9mm personal defense rounds out there.

Reliability * * * * *
No malfunctions with either test gun.

Bullet Function * * * * 
Despite relatively low velocity in shorter guns, penetration and expansion were very good. It clearly performs better in terms of expansion, wound channel and penetration from a full-size pistol

Overall * * * * 1/2
I was expecting a slow bullet with fierce recoil. What Seismic has produced is a round that’s comfortable to shoot with velocity in the range of bullets weighing 25% less. All while performing well in standard FBI gel test conditions. And it’s priced in line with similar personal defense rounds. I look forward to what else Seismic comes up with in the future.

comments

  1. avatar John Bryan says:

    Interesting. But it seems like a lot of bother and expense for 5 grains more bullet than common ammo available in 40S&W. If you’re convinced you need heavier bullets to get the job done but don’t want a 45ACP there’s still plenty of handguns available as 40s. But what the heck, it must be really good at $1.38 per round.

    1. avatar TruthTellers says:

      Yeah, I don’t quite get this in 9mm because of .40 and because 147 grain works just fine. In .45 tho, a 325 grain bullet going 800 fps would be very impressive as a big game defense gun. Makes me wonder if 10mm would be worth getting at all. 1200 fps with a 200 grain bullet vs 800 fps with a 325gr… decisions decisions.

    2. avatar Dan says:

      But it’s not just that’s its 5 grains more than a 40S&W. You can carry more bullets in 9mm than a comparable 40S&W

      1. avatar Sam Hill says:

        Spray and pray member ?

        1. avatar Dan says:

          A nobody ever said I need less rounds member actually.

      2. avatar Setarip says:

        Sectional density is also better than the .40. Plus, who the heck has .40 ammo available anymore? Ever since the fbi dropped it I don’t see 40 ammo at all. It’s going the way of the dodo…

        1. avatar Merle 0 says:

          Back when the Army was adopting a new handgun, for a time they had the door open to a new caliber. I was so hoping it would’ve been .40 just to watch the epic meltdown that would’ve occurred in the Gun world.

    3. avatar Mike W says:

      Except 9mm doesn’t have the awful bullet setback problem you get with .40 S&W. I’ll take not having an inherently flawed cartridge any day over .40’s perceived benefits.

  2. avatar enuf says:

    “Seismic QuakeMaker”?

    So if we all buy a package, load them up in a full size pistol, line up on the San Andreas fault in the wee early hours of the morning and all fire into the fault at the same time …

    Ocean front property in Arizona?

    At long last!!!

    1. avatar Dan says:

      Arizona Bay

    2. avatar ",keep yur paws off my dead guy" possum says:

      I like the way u think

    3. avatar Dave in PTC says:

      Why would you waste all that ammo when one round of 6.5 Creedmoor would be more than enough?

      1. avatar Sam I Am says:

        “Why would you waste all that ammo when one round of 6.5 Creedmoor would be more than enough?”

        True, but shot placement would be hyper-critical. Wouldn’t want to lose a chunk of Arizona.

        1. avatar Dave in PTC says:

          True, Sam. Wisdom is strong with you.

        2. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “True, Sam. Wisdom is strong with you.”

          I come by it illegally.

  3. avatar Nate in CA says:

    Would like to see what happens out of a longer barrel – even carbine length. An ‘outdoors’ round with a non-expanding, broad meplat could be interesting too.

    So when does the 220 grain .40 S&W drop?

    1. avatar oldandshaky says:

      Or 290 grain ACP?

      1. avatar Mark H says:

        The .45 ACP round is supposed to be 325 grains. Still not available.

        1. avatar oldandshaky says:

          I was being facetious, but apparently they are planning to be thorough. Yikes! Where are they planning to go? Is .44 magnum on the drawing board? Not that I would shoot it, of course. Too shaky for that.

    2. avatar BCE56 says:

      Agree. From a carbine these might be the bee’s knees. My 3913 likes 124 gr pills, BHP doesn’t seem to care. And I also prefer flat-points on solids.
      I wonder if the ShellShock cases are absolutely necessary. If not, conventional brass cases could bring the price down a bit.

      1. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

        “Agree. From a carbine these might be the bee’s knees.”

        Like on a pistol AR platform with a brace and a can. A compact, hearing-safe home defense weapon…

      2. avatar BCE56 says:

        Regarding the cases: A quick check of reloading forums suggests this ammo is +P which is why the hybrid cases are used. The cases cost about a dime each in bulk, so maybe no huge savings there.
        I didn’t find any bullet construction details but pics here look encouraging.

        1. avatar Anymouse says:

          They’re also reloadable if you get the special dies.

  4. avatar Johnny Go Lightly says:

    “in standard FBI gel test conditions”……NOT.

    The FBI medium and conditions are wildly controlled and specific. This is just an attempt to spitball it. Not criticizing, just correcting.

  5. avatar Dallas Renter says:

    Marketing hype aside, this ammo is truly amazing when paired with most suppressed 9mm PCCs.

    1. avatar Nikolay Shveshkeyev says:

      Exactly what I was thinking but tbh, I’m acctually more interested in the case than the bullet cuz you can cast heavy bullets yourself all damn day, but that increased case capacity seems like the real big breakthrough for 9mm here. Any thoughts?

  6. avatar Bie ess says:

    This review would have more credibility if it wasn’t written by a shill. I mean click his name and look at all of his glowing “best in class product” reviews of Sig offerings (of which there arw quite a few) where he never mentions any negative aspects, only how flawless and class leading they are.

    1. avatar Matt Richardson says:

      TTAG has a storied history of SIG and FNH fanboi’ism. You must not remember the days of Leghorn’s competition sponsorships by said companies. It was appalling…

      1. avatar Red says:

        Considering the “storied history” of glock “fanboi’ism” where the “flawless” perfection of glocks must be canonized in any firearms publication, or suffer the apocalyptic fiery keyboard wraith of it’s glockbois.

        Any chance you two whiners fit that description?

        1. avatar Bie ess says:

          I’m not a whiner, and I happen to like Sig better than
          Glock for the record. Infact, I’m a CZ fanboy. But I still wouldn’t want gun writers to give CZ impartial reviews and omit ANY criticism of the company’s products. Why are you a boot licking bitch that covers for gun writers who write fluff pieces instead of giving real reviews of gear? It’s almost as if they care more about money and free samples to any semblance of truth in regards to informing their readers in an impartial manner.

      2. avatar Merle 0 says:

        Nastiness of everyone here aside, I honestly thought ttag was more pro glock then anything. When the army adopted the Sig, TTAG and TFB both had an episode about it. Then when the drop firing issue happened, TTAG dedicated an article to bashing on a Sig with a hammer until it fired the round. Everyone said “well why don’t you try that with a Glock too?” TTAG refused and said “we’re not going to do that because we KNOW that a Glock won’t do that.”

        1. avatar tsbhoa.p.jr says:

          19 gloeck reviews and counting. all so very different and unique.
          i’m thinkin’ one with finger grooves, one without, a single stack and a double should cover it. and maybe the longslide 10mm. five? no, twenty.
          i wish i had a rami, i’d submit a review… hint.

  7. avatar No one of consequence says:

    So … basically a light .45 ACP round in a 9mm casing.

    I am curious to see what they might do in .45 ACP or .357 SIG.

    1. avatar TruthTellers says:

      They have a .45 load coming or is already out, it’s a 325 grain bullet.

      I don’t see them doing more than 9mm and .45, maybe .38 and .357. Popular calibers like that. If they did anything in the .25, .32, .357 Sig then that ammo would probably cost $2/round due to the lack of demand.

  8. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

    It’s still just a 9mm. 900(fps) x 900 x 185(gr.) / 450,400 = 333ft/lbs of energy. 16″ of penetration is an improvement over most 9mm rounds, but I don’t see it having a significant advantage over the average 124gr. defense ammo. You’d be better off picking out something cheaper and dedicating a few more rounds for training with your defense ammo.

  9. avatar Will Drider says:

    One more “magic 9mm cartridge”. FBI Bait! Lol. I don’t really mind “be all you can be” endeavors pushing the envelope. Price tag is in the ball park of other “speciality” cartridges. No mention of projectile composition, is it just lead or is there actually a similar colored jacket? Low velocity may not need a jacket to hold it together during expansion.

  10. avatar former water walker says:

    I guess…I don’t really get “why”? Boo-lits moving at 38Special velocities with quite similar diameters?!? Someone will buy it…I’ll stick with 124grain.

  11. avatar Tom Coville says:

    Your first instinct was correct. Expensive gimmick.

    1. avatar WI Patriot says:

      As so many of them are…

  12. avatar Sam I Am says:

    Really enjoyed the review.

    Now…..need 9mm performance for .22LR. My little Neos feels so inferior when I go to the range. (I feel just fine, the Neos is a snowflake)

    Maybe Siesmic can do something with .32? Have my eye on a 1903 Colt hammerless.

    1. avatar EndDangerEd says:

      Have you tried the 60gr .22LR’s from Aguila? They are pretty impressive for an LR… and they’re subsonic too!!

      1. avatar Sam I Am says:

        “Have you tried the 60gr .22LR’s from Aguila?”

        So far, Remington is the cheapest online at Lucky Gunner. Are the 60gr magnum rounds?

    2. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

      “Now…..need 9mm performance for .22LR. My little Neos feels so inferior when I go to the range.”

      Reload that .22lr and experiment with overpressure loads. (Make sure your insurance is paid up, and includes coverage for microsurgery on mangled hands from blown-up guns)…

      http://22lrreloader.com/design-details/

      Complete fingers with no scars are over-rated, anyways… 😉

      1. avatar Sam I Am says:

        “Complete fingers with no scars are over-rated, anyways…”

        Yeah. I hear ya’ there.

        My annual budget for firearm things is $500. Blowing up my plinker, and the microsurgery would be counted against future budgets. Gotta stay within Beretta warranty.

        1. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

          500 a year? That .22lr reload kit is a100 bucks, right up your alley…

        2. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “500 a year? That .22lr reload kit is a100 bucks, right up your alley…”

          True. But blowing up the gun, and the ER bill after will mean no gun budget for how many years?

  13. avatar John McPherson says:

    In the early 1930s the UK military adopted a 38 S&W round loaded with a 200 grain bullet, later replaced with a jacketed 178 grain bullet. In the US this was known as the police load. Nothing new at all.

  14. avatar WI Patriot says:

    This rings of “keeping up with the jones’s”…

    I carry Federal HST 165gr .45ACP, that not only outperforms this, but is far less expensive…

  15. avatar ",keep yur paws off my dead guy" possum says:

    9mm the little engine thatt could.

    1. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

      I thought you possums hated .22lr… 🙂

      1. avatar jwm says:

        It’s the Ford F150 that gives them nightmares.

        1. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

          “It’s the Ford F150 that gives them nightmares.”

          Must be where Hendrix got the inspiration for “Crosstown Traffic” :

          “I’m not the only soul who’s accused of hit and run,
          Tire tracks all across your back, uh-huh, I can see you had your fun….”

    2. avatar ",keep yur paws off my dead guy" possum says:

      rednecks with .22 LR’ driving f-150 Fords are on the sht list, yup.

      1. avatar Moltar Killer of Possums, Savior of the Neighborhood Trashcans says:

        Good thing I drive a Jeep then…

  16. avatar RTP says:

    The 9mm cartridge is limited to maximum pressure allowed by SAAMI specifications. If a heaver bullet is used, cartridge pressure will limit its speed not case capacity. If there is some ‘magic’ involved with this new case that changes the laws of physics it would apply to standard weight 9mm bullets too.

    1. avatar Someone says:

      Pressure is not independent of the case capacity.

  17. avatar Big Al says:

    FIRST – why the testing in BARE clear ballistic gel??? Adding the FBI spec cloth barriers is both relevant and easy.
    NEXT – when tests using the FBI protocol (including cloth barriers) the Federal HST 147gr +P load did 1008fps (326 fpe) with 19.2 inches penetration and .60″ expansion (average for 5 shots). This all per Lucky Gunner labs. Shot from S&W M&P 9c, 3.5″ barrel.
    FINALLY – The Federal stuff can be purchased for about $.40/round. Meanwhile, Seismic is $1.38/round!
    Put that in your smoke & pipe it.

    1. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

      “FIRST – why the testing in BARE clear ballistic gel???”

      The clear stuff can be re-melted and used again. The tan stuff is use once, and throw away before the stench of it rotting starts to bug you.

      And some folks (unlike you, apparently 🙂 ), aren’t made of money…

      1. avatar Big Al says:

        Read the rest of my statement with BARE being emphasized. My criticism was not directed toward CLEAR ballistic gel, but rather to leaving out a quite relevant item (cloth barrier). You will find NO reference to the tan colored ballistic gel in my comment.And NO, I am not rich, just smart. That is why I consult the “Lucky Gunner: lab tests. Quite professionally executed and free to anyone who looks for them.

        1. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “That is why I consult the “Lucky Gunner: lab tests.”

          LG test results had a few differences with STB410, a coupla years ago. Overall, I trust STB410 results. Wish he could do more frequent testing these days.

        2. avatar tdiinva says:

          The LG tests are all with longer barreled pistols. The STB tests are only valid if you are using a pocket pistol although the 9mm rounds that work in a 3″ barrel are likely to work even better in a longer barrel and rounds that fail to perform will probably work in a 4″ or longer barrel.

        3. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “The LG tests are all with longer barreled pistols.”

          True. It might be considered “apples to oranges”, yet the testing results were not night and day different, only a few conflicts.

          Here is the chart I pay most attention to:
          “One shot stop percentage – number of incapacitations divided by the number of hits the person took. Like Marshall’s number, I only included hits to the torso or head in this number.”

          “- Percentage of people who were immediately stopped with one hit to the head or torso

          Here are the results:
          .25ACP
          # of people shot – 68
          # of hits – 150
          % of hits that were fatal – 25%
          Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 2.2
          % of people who were not incapacitated – 35%
          One-shot-stop % – 30%
          Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 62%
          % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 49%

          .22 (short, long and long rifle)
          # of people shot – 154
          # of hits – 213
          % of hits that were fatal – 34%
          Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.38
          % of people who were not incapacitated – 31%
          One-shot-stop % – 31%
          Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 76%
          % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 60%

          .32 (both .32 Long and .32 ACP)
          # of people shot – 25
          # of hits – 38
          % of hits that were fatal – 21%
          Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.52
          % of people who were not incapacitated – 40%
          One-shot-stop % – 40%
          Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 78%
          % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 72%

          .380 ACP
          # of people shot – 85
          # of hits – 150
          % of hits that were fatal – 29%
          Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.76
          % of people who were not incapacitated – 16%
          One-shot-stop % – 44%
          Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 76%
          % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 62%

          .38 Special
          # of people shot – 199
          # of hits – 373
          % of hits that were fatal – 29%
          Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.87
          % of people who were not incapacitated – 17%
          One-shot-stop % – 39%
          Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 76%
          % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 55%

          9mm Luger
          # of people shot – 456
          # of hits – 1121
          % of hits that were fatal – 24%
          Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 2.45
          % of people who were not incapacitated – 13%
          One-shot-stop % – 34%
          Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 74%
          % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 47%

          .357 (both magnum and Sig)
          # of people shot – 105
          # of hits – 179
          % of hits that were fatal – 34%
          Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.7
          % of people who were not incapacitated – 9%
          One-shot-stop % – 44%
          Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 81%
          % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 61%

          .40 S&W
          # of people shot – 188
          # of hits – 443
          % of hits that were fatal – 25%
          Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 2.36
          % of people who were not incapacitated – 13%
          One-shot-stop % – 45%
          Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 76%
          % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 52%

          .45 ACP
          # of people shot – 209
          # of hits – 436
          % of hits that were fatal – 29%
          Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 2.08
          % of people who were not incapacitated – 14%
          One-shot-stop % – 39%
          Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 85%
          % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 51%

          .44 Magnum
          # of people shot – 24
          # of hits – 41
          % of hits that were fatal – 26%
          Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.71
          % of people who were not incapacitated – 13%
          One-shot-stop % – 59%
          Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 88%
          % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 53%

          Rifle (all Centerfire)
          # of people shot – 126
          # of hits – 176
          % of hits that were fatal – 68%
          Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.4
          % of people who were not incapacitated – 9%
          One-shot-stop % – 58%
          Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 81%
          % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 80%

          Shotgun (All, but 90% of results were 12 gauge)
          # of people shot – 146
          # of hits – 178
          % of hits that were fatal – 65%
          Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.22
          % of people who were not incapacitated – 12%
          One-shot-stop % – 58%
          Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 84%
          % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 86%”

          https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

        4. avatar tdiinva says:

          And what does this have to do with the relative reliability of LG and STB ballistic tests?

        5. avatar Anymouse says:

          Marshall’s numbers are provably made up. Between different versions of the books, there were rounds that would have needed more than 100% one stop shots to account for the differences in number of shots and percentage of “one shot” stops.
          Even if the numbers weren’t picked from the air, the methodology is crap. Who is trained to fire once, wait and evaluate the results, and then fire again? All training I know of says to fire until the treat stops, and double taps are common. BTW, the Stassburg Goat Test is another fantasy.

        6. avatar tdiinva says:

          This study says nothing about the kind of ammo was used. Most disciplined defenders employ a shoot-shoot-look approach. So on a two shot stop was it the first shot? The Second shot? Both?

      2. avatar Hannibal says:

        An inaccurate test can be worse than no test at all.

  18. avatar Sam Hill says:

    The author did an excellent job. I understand what he wrote and his results were clear. Now, if only I liked 9mm.

  19. avatar tdiinva says:

    A 9mm round at 45 Auto velocities is pointless. You might as well go with a .40 or .45. If you are concerned about capacity there are pistols chambered in 45 with magazine capacity ranging from 13-15 rounds. Given that 10 rounds probably covers the 3 sigma case in a citizen DGU the marginal effectiveness of going from 13 rounds .45 to 17 rounds of 9mm is insignificant.

    1. avatar Aven says:

      Many of us have one or more 9mm pistols and don’t want or need a 40 or 45. This cartridge is a good way to go if you want the performance of a larger caliber but don’ want or can’t afford another handgun. I have 9mm in small, medium and 1911 size and I don’t want another gun.

      1. avatar tdiinva says:

        One of the selling points of 9mm is cost of ammo. These rounds are almost $8-$10 per box more. What does this round do that the heavy weight 147g +P HST can’t at a lower cost? If caliber doesn’t matter increasing the mass of a 9mm by 35g shouldn’t matter either.

    2. avatar Hannibal says:

      Find me a .45acp with 10 rounds at the size and weight of the P365 and maybe I’ll entertain that it’s “pointless.”

      1. avatar tdiinva says:

        Seems that you didn’t read the entire article. It:s not particularly good out of a 3″ barrel. Some of us carry pistols that are bigger than a P365.

        Next.

  20. avatar john clark says:

    $1.38 a round, no thanks, I’ll put 5 147 HP into the target for the same price.

  21. avatar GS650G says:

    Completely illegal in new jersey of course. They would label this bullet as a terrorist weapon of destruction.

  22. avatar Hannibal says:

    Cool, although at that price it’s pretty much a non-starter for me. I believe in practicing with carry ammo as much as feasible and I think I’ll have to stick to a poor man’s hollowpoint box for that purpose.

  23. avatar D.J.U. says:

    I would really like to have seen you test this heavy weight ammo out of a ten and sixteen inch carbine with good melonite treated barrels. Melonited bores are smoother and slicker than most if from a quality manufacture, and tend allow for faster speeds, although not much but enough I’ve come to respect them tremendously for their bennifit. I’m also a big fan of shellshock s3 cases as they are deffantly ahead of the curve even with the extra expensive reloadind dies. They are cutting edge technology and are now being used to set the bar. For those who doubt this watch the video from Johnny’s reloading beanch using the S3 cases with extreamly insane velocities out of a glock as an experiment. It’ll give you insight as to the case’s strength and technology advancement edge.

  24. avatar Buff cousin Elroy says:

    More options isnt bad, i guess. Not my cup of tea though, 124gr Gold Dot or Fed HST are the bees knees, and have been for quite some time.

  25. avatar Joseph says:

    An ingenious solution to a non existent problem.

  26. avatar Ogre says:

    I can’t see changing from the 9mm Critical Defense or 124-gr JHPs I currently use for self-defense. I can see where this new exotic 185-grain 9mm ammo (if/when I can find any) might be a good choice to improve the performance of my 9mm KelTec Sub2K carbine (my car gun), but if I want a heavier bullet in a defensive handgun, I have .45 ACPs to use.

  27. avatar DJ.U. says:

    This is my second comment. After reading the others left I beleave one of the over looked aspects of this round is the fact it is a heavy weight in 9mm with out extream heavy recoil, and even though expensive, when it comes to self defense that really should not be a mitigating factor. And he stated this round was geared toward the carbine platform. It apears to be an improvement in a need for not carrying a larger caliber and allowing more to be carried in the magizine. Is there an absolute need for it. Mabey, maybey not. But in carbine use i beleave it is as it will defenatly add to it’s use for hunting. And if this loading is acepted in the firearms community it could lead to other bullet manufactures building some balistic tipped style rounds suitable for deer and hog hunting in this 9mm platform, not that there are many others already available in other calibers. But 9mm cabines are worthwhile and easy shooting for alot of people and applications. And most rounds in 9mm are not really sutible for hunting in cabines as they are really built for 3 and 4 inch shooters. More loadings are needed for carbine use especially for hunting use. This is an area overlooked by almost all the ammunition manufactures. And for those of us who load or reload our own, the real hunting projectiles really don’t exist in the 9mm world. Some work well like hornadys defense projectiles but are allready loaded in in their critical defense loads geared for short barrells not for 16 inch carbines. More choices are allways better.

  28. avatar Popeye the Sailor Man says:

    Can’t help but wonder what would result from loading those projectiles in a 9×25 Dillon casing and firing from a 6″ barrel… May have to experiment with this someday.

  29. avatar Hugh Glass says:

    Blah blah blah, if you don’t want it, don’t buy it, if you’re interested, try it out.

  30. avatar BusyBeef says:

    This bullet answers a question nobody asked.

  31. avatar asdf says:

    Weirdly (tellingly?) there’s no mention of how high they hit the target, relative to normal weight bullets. Probably a good bit higher.

  32. avatar thomaspaine says:

    HOW ABOUT RELIABILITY. I have seen numerous brands of ammo that had either aluminum or steel cases jam in the chamber and they had to be pounded out especially when the barrel started to heat up. They tend to break extractors as well.

  33. avatar TP11 says:

    “The manufacturer told me that this ammo was designed with carbine-length barrels in mind” but you chose to not test in carbine-length barrel and thus your review has no teeth. SMH

  34. avatar SpeedBump says:

    Oh lookie, another attempt at getting 9mm stoping power performance on par with .40 S&W.

    So tired of all this!

    If you want or need more power, buy a more powerful gun.

    Compact 9mm carry guns are best served with high velocity light weight bullets. This is where they perform best.

    If in Bear Country, and you own a full size 9mm with 5″ barrel, these loads might offer some benefit, otherwise – why try to fix what ain’t broke?

    1. avatar TP11 says:

      you seem like you think you now everything about everything so idky i’m responding but to me the value of this option is that it’s a heavier version of a 147gr SUBSUBSONIC cartridge which is great for use with a suppressor. More energy, still subsonic. However, the author failed to test if it stays subsonic in a carbine length barrel. I have no interest interest in adding another caliber to my collection, but I am interested in expanding the versatility of the calibers I have.

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