http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dIGdGNBLN0
In response to RF’s post regarding a recently deceased soccer referee, Phil Nelsen, disagreed about the necessity of a DGU in similar circumstances and wrote the following on our Facebook page:
“A ‘simple’ punch can be fatal” is misguided logic. The use of deadly force (in every state and under the model penal code) is based on a criterion of “reasonableness”. The reasonably prudent man standard asks the question was the harm LIKELY to cause death or serious bodily injury, not COULD it have. Anything could cause death. Punches to the face are EXTREMELY unlikely to cause serious injury or death, therefore are EXTREMELY unlikely to support a DGU . . .
If you disagree with the above, ask yourself how many fist fights you’ve ever seen or heard of, then ask yourself how many people died from those fights. We’re talking one in a million. You don’t use a firearm to prevent something that has a one in a million probability of killing you. That, by definition, is unreasonable. As such, it is outside the boundaries of justified self-defense.
Not the punch to the face as much as the skull hitting the sidewalk or curb…
Exactly. Taking that position is only possible if you have a reasonable expectation that once punched the situation will not deteriorate for you – such as getting curb-stomped or kicked viciously, if you go down.
Pulling a firearm is meant to be an immediate trump to that possibility by being a deterrent first, and a terminal last resort.
Yes. A guy I knew in grade school is in prison for manslaughter because he punched someone in a fight outside a bar. It wasn’t the punch that did it, it was the impact with the curb.
A broken nose, which can result in permanent disfigurement, counts as serious bodily injury in my book.
Too many variables to set a firm rule. Two 18 yo high school athletes get into a dust up at a game with each other and no, a gun isn’t reasonable. One of those 18 yo athletes tries to punch a 65 yo man in the head after a fender bender and yes, I can see the use of a gun being reasonable.
The brat definitely went in on the teacher first. The brat was also threatening her verbally and with body language. The teacher was composed until she went in on her. I think she had the right to shove her away.
IMO, they are both in the wrong. The teacher went way past any opportunity to diffuse the situation. She showed a lack of understanding the social position the child was in – not to excuse the child’s behavior at all, but she placed the girl into a situation she could not back off from and save face.
There are any number of ways to handle this, but first and for most would be not to embarrass yourself or the child in front of peers. She should have moved the situation into a more private setting, or taken it directly to a higher and neutral authority, thus allowing both parties to extract their personal stakes from the exchange.
And now that school has one less thug, when she gets expelled. Hopefully, the teacher also goes after her for assault.
I’m not seeing a down side.
being assaulted is a downside, at least to me.
If the teacher has the right to confiscate the phone and makeup and the only thing that the brat makes clear she will accept to “diffuse the situation” is have her stuff given back after throwing a fit suitable for suspension/expulsion, what can the teacher do to diffuse the situation? Give her everything she wants? Give up her credibility as the head of the classroom? Procedurally she could have called security, and then they’d have fought with the brat, and since they are likely wearing some kind of little LE costume it would all be “ok” and we wouldn’t be talking about it. Same result though.
I think he is generally right, with the caveats that:
1. People vary, if you are a frail 80lb old person and a 230lb boxer is coming after you it may be more reasonable to fear a punch as a potentially deadly/severe injury threat.
2. The intent of the attackers can influence reasonableness. The guy at the bar throwing a punch at you probably doesn’t want to kill you, but if there is a reasonable basis to believe the person does want to kill you with their bare hands that first punch can be considered the beginning of a deadly attack.
Just like people should be able to use a gun when they need to, we should not encourage unreasonable use.
I’ve been in one fight in my life. In the seventh grade. I lost. If I’m potentially fighting for my life (as the FBI uniform crime stats show, many people die each year to fists and feet) I don’t want to rely on my fighting abilities to save me.
I have long said, “If you are not prepared to get your ass kicked without pulling out your firearm, you shouldn’t be carrying one.” There, of course, is a difference between losing a fight and being able to control your ego and putting yourself and your loved ones in a dangerous situation (to include an unattended firearm on a defenseless body).
I disagree, CA. I see what you’re saying, and I almost agree, but I’ve got OI type 3 (brittle bones, moderately severe), and I’m absolutely not prepared to “get my ass kicked.”
Realistically, if somebody hits me just the right way, they could shatter my cheekbones or break my neck. In my situation, any kind of fight is a fight for my life, and I won’t risk purposely putting myself on the losing end of that fight because I’m not ready to get my ass kicked.
Punches to the face/head can and do break eye sockets, cheek bones, noses, teeth, lips, eyes, temples, bust ear drums, split skin to the bone etc.
Anyone claiming those aren’t serious injuries is full of it.
That said a punch doesn’t ‘normally’ kill people and that is the test for DGU. Multiple punches and size of the attacker vs size of the victim can also change it from a simple fist fight to DGU.
A 6’6″ 300 lb attacker vs a 5′ 100 lb person one could reasonably assume that would be a DGU for the 5′ person.
Attempt to lay a hand on me and see what happens.
I believe Masad Ayoob would say, its justifiable with the disparity of force which was in existence.
If you’re carrying in public (not that I have that option) then the bar is much higher, I would think, as you most likely have options to escape an unarmed threat, or not let it escalate in the first place.
If I’m woken up in the middle of the night and someone approaches me in my house, I’m not going to ask if he only plans to punch me or if he truly does have a knife or other weapon in his pocket, coat, etc. He’ll get the standard “Stop or I’ll shoot” at which point any further steps towards me result in a small reduction in my ammo supply.
The generally accepted definition is for a DGU is:
Immanent threat of:
1) Sexual Assault
2) Great bodily harm
3) Death
This clearly does not fall under 1. Great bodily harm. Broken jaw, concussion, broken skull, broken teeth are all examples that are great bodily harm. Death is rare.
So it could be argued, yes it could be a DGU. Reasonableness is the key though. Is a simple punch to the face “reasonable?” If I am standing in line at a store and someone punches me in the face, is it not reasonable to defend myself? Why is that punch to the face “reasonable?”
The threat has announced itself, and has come to to be. Could this be a shoot/no shoot scenario? Yes. The question is should a law abiding citizen who is not the instigator be a punching bag?
What classifies a “simple” punch to a “non-simple” punch? Was George Zimmerman being “simple punched?” If yes, then his use of a firearm was incorrect and he is guilty. If it was not a “simple punch” but an immanent threat of great bodily harm or death, then he is innocent.
A DGU scenario is not a one-size fits all. The problem is we have to make split decisions that could last a lifetime with consequences (either good or bad). We can learn from each situation to get better.
Kind of a tangent, but I wonder what the OathKeepers stance is on this issue. If there are any OKs on the DC police force, would they stand down? Would they join in?
Just curious – I don’t really expect an answer, especially not from an OathKeeper, but I feel like this is *exactly* the kind of thing OathKeepers are there for.
Thanks for bringing my comment up for more discussion TTAG. I normally agree with what you guys post, I simply disagree with the notion that because a punch “can” kill you, it warrants a DGU. For those who are interested in more specifics on their individual state’s justifiable homicide criteria, the best place to look is at your state’s jury instructions for justifiable homicide
To clarify a few points. I am an attorney (for whatever that’s worth). I have worked as a prosecutor and an expert witness, and I run a firearm training company that operates in 15 states each month. I wouldn’t have chimed in if I didn’t have reason to support my comment. Obviously opinions can vary on this issue.
I will defer to Admiral Ackbar on this one . . .
interesting to read everyone’s opinions but every single owner needs to constantly review their state’s laws. i can comment and i can do this that and the other and someone in a state with very restrictive laws could think this is pertinent to their state and wind up doing 20 years whereas in my state the event doesn’t even merit news coverage.
A few of the guys in our club have been shooting an interesting little straight-pull Russian .22 rifle for the 100 and 200- yard silhouette shoots we have. Not a pretty rifle, but they seem to be extremely accurate with the ammo they like. They are called the “Biathlon basic” on various web sites, and are apparently a “basic” or stripped-down version of the Ishmash Biathlon rifle that is used in serious small bore rifle competition. I seem to recall they ran around $200 or so at the FLGS, but that was 2-3 years ago. The down side was finding extra magazines.
Two things to note
The spent cases eject straight up — and have a strong tendency to come straght down my collar. A friend said the solution is not to rotate the barrel a bit during the pull-push cycle, but to slap the bolt handle open and close with an open palm instead of grabbing it and holding on. Seems to work!
Sure does hold six rounds, but stripper clips only hold five, and the ammo comes in 10 (20?) round boxes. Why?
Just when I think that Colion can’t out-do his previous videos….I’m proved wrong. Man, I do so love being wrong.
Really like’n the new “young guns”…way to go NRA!…made a Lifer outta this member.
Strange how this news merited only a two-sentence summary in our local birdcage liner, under “Headlines we aren’t going to tell you much about because we don’t like what the story says”. Typical Democrat Propaganda Ministry lying by omission. Hey, what are the Kardashians doing? THAT’S news!
“Criminologists and other experts have said that explanations for the decline remain elusive, although the Justice Department has in part credited smarter policing practices and investments in law enforcement.” Gee, you don’t suppose the expansion of “shall issue” laws from a few states to 40 had anything to do with it? Or the LEGAL sales (to honest citizens) of nearly 200 million guns since that time?
Is there someplace I can order a really large one of these? And I’d be willing to contribute towards putting this on a couple of roadside billboards.
It seems that the link to the source is not working. Is there a way to see the full resolution file?
https://www.boxcloud.com/bc/2/3859274dc738358a84425967e2d7c8d3/oxsr6n5bVQhyic6N7TfrMf0sVTkQUOBIH0HsZBGRDI216or2RsiqeIJWSB6EHLDPEhEQUGDu5rz0hgFfxRXDmuUT3WYRcgq_71ttM-X5NNWRBDnIOdA88HD507Mvm6mvY_vPkRN8RZac4zovgCeIZYJXUx8Tp_Q3UYdf09uSVgSDcAlUGcnbTWy8W9B4m0jtminhMeyO2xFnei_m193R0ReaMTLienRcnwmZEltU0t4WGhcAumiB2gVTebjG7i8zedfuXqQ1GZuB9OTp3JQKQx6hfmVvBeTvMkqDkKb7_7VUiCvzQHANiy5YpWy0yCaPTM_I1_CX3fwDE9aqUbzga8RuW68B3qJgL3zdRDDA_7u7V7-2FcgbB1k-YSmWkdHGnU9rTgCzfVWj-25gOBF35U3LZNqAVYRoATwy4p_Ef0jOX9sZ0XgmVqPqyxOg7paWiwJmA70Wjv3QudO8Tm45nNCcdnzL8uFFBsZ8HeNtT77xxKG31u9DrBbm19WGs3nSjJcd1wacdmBZvj0MvNfBAsY-w3PfO_ixC3rx1F_O8MB6kLSU0Zt_L8A7Ab3SXnSuV2UcIEg0mLNIUbSwRt4auDLOCm92DIvdfExOMDhOvzR8dfsrXcgJKPVgGqKl4GzaP2PmUBqtBjxggNbGZiP02sTvMquIutR5iceWnJfavECh53aEIB1SUsHLDGa4hTEaEtJo9JpUr3Mxoa6fZ0qAxpVT9WfXR5tiIsgE658-2v_vVs9m8K4Q0RFpgD1CQcWIb0hJfRKw6FjZtmdIQkjPv6xA-f4cc-et5E9RLJxfGz8uWMnP5tLsEEOZwyrR_BrhQLhrjGJVaYmAuwwF9JgvaNTae8LM8ehsGDW63yuGSt1rl7CubFjmCKgLkHQDfO_Q/27dc78aa34328e27293dfe33bcfb2b5beda13b50bba7bcaeff215bfc07ca5bc1/
“The link you’re trying to access can’t be used to share files”
I’m actually not sure if the officer shot another officer or if he shot himself in the thigh. I think by the text it could be taken either way.
Awesome looking rifle, I am still saving up for a Grand though.
I wonder if it came from a hotmail address…
I am of the mind that it isn’t the punch itself that is the most damaging part of an altercation. There are other things to consider, many of which have already been stated (head hitting sidewalk, etc). How about getting knocked to the ground and having your carry weapon exposed? Could that it and of itself escalate the aggressiveness of the attacker? Maybe he now fears for his life because, even if he doesn’t attempt, successfully or not, to disarm you he may take his attack steps further to ensure you do not retaliate.
Also to the point that most punches don’t result in death, I’d argue that most DGUs don’t either.
Cops here shoot dogs at will. Even ones that aren’t attacking or charging anyone.
Shrug. In any case, if your dog is loose you probably deserve to have it be shot. Too bad, so sad you should have control over your dog if you plan on keeping it for very long.
one thing we know for sure: it wasn’t a medium-sized dog with a short coat and blocky head or there would be 735 stories about it in the media across the country with the headline: “Charging pit pull shot by cop in Chicago”
200,000: times a year women use guns to defend against sexual abuse.
FINALLY.
I had a book (and if anyone can figure out what it is called, I’d appreciate it, because I lost it and cannot remember the tittle) where the author, a US Army officer who had seen infantry combat in Viet Nam shot every service rifle he could get his hands on, from the trap door springfield to the bullpups of europe, and the K-31 was his favorite of the bold action guns, he didn’t expect that.
Reading the poster just rang a bell for me. Why Obeyme is keeping the Fort Hood murders a “workplace” violence instead of a terrorist act against our military. Deaths of our soldiers are likely not counted. Therefore, Fort Hood, is just another mass shooting to bump the gun crime stats.
Wonder what the grabbers would say if someone was beaten to death with one of these bricks?
And yet if someone gets murdered by a “peace brick” you know they’ll include it in the stats of people killed by guns…
I had hoped to see a pressure cooker on the table, but noooo. Just no respect for the poor lowly pressure cooker, Randy
The Warren commission proved just how unpredictable a single bullet can be.
Directly on other side would have been right in the heart.
AWWWWW
On a different note, would have been funny if she shot the yes plate, and then did a mag dump on the no plate.
Sane counterpoint:
http://dcist.com/2013/05/libertarians_plan_another_gun-totin.php
“What’s better than a bunch of libertarians marching around D.C. carrying loaded rifles? How about a like-minded group walking past the monuments the day before, but in a demonstration that’s actually legal.”
I don’t know when this was compiled, but how did we go down to 270 million guns in America! It has been 300 million for years and that was before the buying craze since 2008, where did all of those weapons go?
Nick or RF, if you haven’t already done so, please add this to the gun facts section of the website so it can be easily found for future use.
cmorbutts is actually wrong.
The manufacturers are not getting the high prices for the ammo. They are still selling to distributors at their normal prices. And many of the reputable distributors (Midway, etc) are selling at normal prices as soon as they get the stuff in. However it’s the secondary market that is immediately snapping them up, jacking up the prices and selling on the secondary market.
In the last 2 weeks, the ammo shortage has started to subside. I’ve been seeing 22LR, 9MM and .223 going for 7 cents, 25 cents, 30 cents respectively on a more continual basis and taking longer and longer to sell out.
The end of the ammo shortage should be soon.
Mine was the best. Unless you ask my wife, in which case I totally screwed it up.
congrats to the happy couple.
I was really nervous that she would turn and cover the crowd when she saw the sign, but she showed excellent discipline – a keeper.
In future articles, unless your plan is to beat your opposition into submission with a wall-o-text, I’d recommend a short summary of the data to-be-explained be included prior to launching into a point-by-point. After the point-by-point you should touch on the major points again in a second brief, closing summary. If you want people to read through and then retain what you’re trying to explain, you should tell them what you’re going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you told them.
The above post is very heavy sledding. That leads to “tl;dr” behavior and not being able to martial the presented arguments to persuade further acquaintances.
After reading a boatload of comments submitted here I have to ask myself one simple question.
Have the “Buyers” submitted proper ID for a background check ?
Never forget the Gottlieb-Manchin-Toomey bill.
Well, it’s good the SAF and the NRA aren’t enemies, but I wonder if Gottlieb’s gaffes last month were part of an elaborate good cop, bad cop deal with the NRA.
You should interview Patricia Stoneking of the Kansas State Rifle Association, they are behind SB102, the Second Amendment Protection Act that got Eric Holder in a big hissy (and his threatening letters to Gov. Brownback).
I’m in a wheelchair and I CC due to working mostly nights. I also have 3XL sized hands so most compact grips just don’t feel right to me. My first CCW was a M&P 45c but then I came across the SA XDm 45 3.8 and I couldn’t be happier.
“Before the white guys arrived, disease had more-or-less wiped out the native American population.”
Are we re-writing history here? Let’s see, the Sioux, Kiowa, Ute tribes, were doing fine Until the white man showed up. Yes, disease did impact the plains and Western tribes, but did not “wipe them out”. Plus the size of the herds did not “explode”. They were nomadic grazers that covered the great plains of our continent. So, they were “large”‘ to begin with.
Another thread that sometimes beats gunbot is at calguns.net. Sure it’s only Californians using, but for instance there is usually 800 to 4000 users on their site, depending on time of day. They also have private arms sales forum, and another for ammunition. This is in addition to the ‘Deals, Sales, and Coupons’ thread.
For instance it is late night now on west coast and there are this many reading the following threads in the forum.
Private Firearms sales thread : 559
Private Firearms parts sales thread: 205
Private Ammo and Reloading components sales thread: 140
Deals Sales Coupons thread: 120
And there are over 2000 users altogether in the forum, plus additional ‘guests’
P.S. if you sell on Gunbroker and do not ship to California you have far fewer bids on all your auctions!
So when are they going to add adjudicated psychos to the NICS no-buy list?
Oh they’re not going to do that? wow, obvious victory for the 2nd amendment I guess.
The officer handed it very well and was patient with these young jackasses who just seem to be looking for trouble.
They could get hurt if they try this stunt at the wrong time and place.
There is really no purpose in open carrying a rifle and standing out on a busy street corner. It’s just plain stupid and does nothing to further our gun rights.
No one I know who shoots has asked for ammo. They all were well stocked or stocked enough that they could cut back some on shooting and be ok.
I am down to 6k rounds worth of components for my IDPA gun and that is starting to worry me a little. I am lowest on bullets at 6k then primers at 15k and powder I probably have 25k worth. 5.56 is down to 3k of commercial ammo. Everything else I don’t shoot enough to worry about. So I am ok for a bit. I have backed off on the AR shooting to keep it from draining too fast.
On the positive side, Wal-Mart had 5.56 in stock last week and 40 s&w and 9mm in stock today but no 5.56. I am hoping this is a sign of things getting better.
If you think a punch to the head is not dangerous, you’ve never had an orbital fracture. I now have titanium mesh holding my eye socket together. If I’m hit in that eye again, it could cause my eyeball to rupture, as the titanium mesh will not give way like the cartilage that eye socket originally consisted of. I will now readily shoot someone before I’ll take a “simple punch”.
Although in theory I agree with his general premise that not every punch justifies pulling a gun. Getting into your opponent has to be x size or show x intent Etc etc is ridiculous. I’ll use myself as an example, I’m 5’10” about 205 white guy who dresses nicely. Think button down tie and slacks during the week and polo jeans/ khaki shorts after work. I don’t look particularly capable or dangerous, but I’ve been training in Krav Maga and Muay Thai in a hardcore gym with multiple pro fighters for nearly a decade. I could easily put your average person in the hospital or worse inside of a minute. My point being you never know and looks can be deceiving. Not every person who takes the martial arts seriously wears a tap out shirt. Asking someone to make distinctions of intent AFTER being being punched is ludicrous.
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