45 vs 9mm meme
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One of gun folks’ favorite debates is the ever-popular 9mm vs. .45 ACP. The 10mm vs. basically anything else comes close. Then there’s .30-06 vs. those who are wrong. Why, some newbies may wonder, is there such an intense and long-standing argument over the merits of 9mm compared to .45 ACP?

What’s been relatively common knowledge for some time now is that it really doesn’t matter. Today, you can get great ammunition in both calibers. Plenty of fine firearms are available chambered for both.

9mm vs 45 ACP caliber wars

It’s been well established that both are excellent choices for either personal protection and target work. Any ballistic advantage is merely incremental or only matters on paper instead of in real-word results (competitive shooting aside). Given good quality ammo, neither produces a wound much bigger than the other, nor is one more consistently fatal to bad guys.

What’s known about gunfights involving handguns is that shot placement wins them much more than caliber. They’re usually over with in only the space of fewer than 10 rounds, so capacity doesn’t matter all that much either.

The point is that caliber matters a lot less than people like to pretend it does when it comes to handguns. Why then, does so much digital and analog ink get spilled over this ongoing debate? Why do people bicker about it online when they (should) have better things to do?

First, a lot of it is because of things that happened a long time ago. The 9mm round – and some of its close cousins, such as .38 Long Colt – was used by a few militaries and in the civilian realm for a time, but the guns had generally poor results in defensive shootings. The .45 ACP tended to fare a little better.

Why was that? Militaries tend to use hardball. Since expansion doesn’t happen with ball ammo and any wound tends to go through a target, .45 is going to hurt more since it pokes a bigger hole. And since semi-auto pistols mostly ran hardball back in the day, that meant big-bore guns like the 1911 tended to yield better results than 9mm pistols like the Browning Hi Power, Model 39 and Walther P38/P1. Until good hollow points came around, that is.

9mm vs 45 ACP Caliber Wars JHP Hollow Point

Old guys still argue about it because it was true back when they were learning. Young guys argue about it because their dad/uncle/whomever told them when they were a kid. It’s kind of the same reason people learn that being a Dallas Cowboys fan is acceptable. Chalk it up to bad parenting.

Modern hollow point ammunition have put paid to that decades ago. Modern 9mm is reliably effective with a good bullet that’s well-placed and the same applies to .45 ACP.

Then there’s the Tribalist Primate angle. You see, we humans are basically hairless monkeys and we do a lot of silly hairless monkey stuff. We see the other guys and immediately assume They Are Wrong when, in fact, they’re no different from you or I, or at least not in any way that should matter.

Why is that? Basically, people are fundamentally insecure. Someone enjoys something that isn’t what we like and we must somehow prove those other people are wrong, providing the validation we so desperately crave.

The 1911 guys make fun of the GLOCK guys, the GLOCK guys make fun the 1911 guys, the H&K guys act like they’re better than everyone else and the revolver people have bingo at 3:00pm in day room.

So, newbie…now you know one of the terrible truths about the People Of The Gun. Then again, we’re no different from people who are into other stuff. In Australia, the Ford vs Chevy thing literally causes riots. It also won’t be stopping any time soon, so don’t get too worked up about it.

How about you? Does the 9mm vs .45 thing really matter to you? Let us know why you think so.

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221 COMMENTS

        • “So capacity is also a hedge against poor shot placement.”

          Isn’t that the reason the Ma Duce is belt-fed?

        • Ing says:
          “So capacity is also a hedge against poor shot placement.”

          ^This.

          Caliber is a hedge against poor shot placement, hopefully by means of a bigger hole. Capacity is a hedge against poor shot placement, hopefully by means of more holes.

          Frankly, these two axioms are what the caliber war boils down to.

          Taken further, larger calibers follow the reasoning that you may only get one good shot, so make a big a hole as possible. Larger capacity follows the logic that quantity is better than quality. You may never get a better shot, stress, etc, so spam a lesser caliber.

          And then there’s .40sw LOL

        • Why do we argue calibers and the optimum firearms that shoot them? Because we’re all POTG and it’s fun to argue!

      • Belt fed for the thread win.

        Fewer feed issues, faster follow up shots.

        Sadly, the Ma Duce against infantry is not only going to over-penitrate, but as an anti-vehicular weapon violates the Geneva convention.

        That said, if you CCW the Ma Duce, you are more man than I.

        Love 45 ACP, practice and defend with 9mm. Hollow points need velocity. Oh… Is there a 50 BMG hollow point on the market?!?

        • “Oh… Is there a 50 BMG hollow point on the market?!?”

          Isn’t the point of the .50BMG to hollow out the target?

          Ever wonder why the Ma Duce is outlawed by Geneva, but it is perfectly OK to use the GAU-8 against personnel?

        • —-Ever wonder why the Ma Duce is outlawed by Geneva, but it is perfectly OK to use the GAU-8 against personnel?—-

          No, I just wonder why people keep spouting this wrong info:

          2 seconds with google reveals: “No prohibition exists in the Geneva Conventions, any other law of war treaty, nor in any other part of the law of war on the use of weapons such as the 23mm ZU-23 or the .50 caliber machinegun as antipersonnel weapons.”

          https://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/killing-myth

        • I cant believe people still think there is a prohibition on using 50 Cal against personnel.
          This is how bad information continually get circulated.
          The internet, use it please.

        • Maybe just tribal knowledge, or a unilateral declaration by the US? The restriction is “common knowledge” for a reason; didn’t just appear in the sky one afternoon.

          Of course, the US did not sign any of the first three “conventions”, so not bound by any provision, except as the US government chooses as a humanitarian gesture (lotta folks don’t know that, either)

    • The caliber advantage is negated by hollowpoint ammo, and doesn’t tactical training teach to at least double-tap? Another advantage of the 9mm vs .45 is target reacquisition.

      Bottom line: The best gun is the one you will always carry and practice with often.

      • Target reacquisition with an all metal .45 cal 1911 (at approx 40 ounces) is not really an issue. The pistol’s sheer mass damps any muzzle rise very well. I find that I’m considerably more accurate with the 1911 (vs a full-size 9mm). Given the choice, I’ll take first-round accuracy over capacity.

  1. The old antiquated 9mm vs. .45 debate has raged now for a century and no doubt pre-dates World War 1 (1914-1918). Not to mention World War II (1939-1945). It’s like the .30-06 vs. .270, M-14 vs. M-16, 12 vs. 20 gauge, or perhaps even .300 Savage vs. .35 Remington debate. Choose the gun and caliber you are comfortable, competent, and confident with. Remember no substitute exists for accuracy, shot placement, and sensible sound sane and safe gun handling.

    –James A. “Jim” Farmer
    Merrill, Oregon (Klamath County)

      • Betamax never got the love it deserved. It was perfect for home movies and had much greater clarity and resolution than VHS. However, VHS had run time. Blockbuster and the movie rental business really loved the VHS format, as an entire movie used only one tape. A standard length movie on Betamax would need two, maybe more.

        • The other major driving force in video formats has always been, believe it or not, porn. The porn industry probably had the same reservations about Beta as it did with 1080p – do you really want to see the butt zits on your favorite actress?

      • “Ford vs. Chevy, Red Sox vs. Yankees, Beta vs. VHS – just pick a side and dig in your heals.”
        -Gov. William J Le Petomane

        “Hey, Andy Dick! Sometimes you’re gay; sometimes you’re straight. Pick a hole and stick with it!”
        -Lisa Lampanelli

    • It certainly predates WWI. That was the entire reason the 1911 was developed with the .45 ACP to go with it. Browning was working on a .40-caliber cartridge for his next military pistol, until General Thompson told him he wanted a “real manstopper” like ye olde SAA (but more like the .455 Webley since it was more powerful and more efficient than the old black powder .45 Colt).

      • The .45 colt in its black powder loading was more powerful on paper than the .455 webley. Remember that the brit round started out as black powder, also. And it had a much lighter powder load than the colt.

        Where I believe the brits got it mostly right was that their 265 grain lead bullet was less likely to shoot completely thru the target, wasting some of its energy, than the faster stepping 255 grain colt load.

        A heavy for caliber bullet at modest velocity tended to ruin more folks. Especially in the day of poor medical care.

        • Except that back around the turn of the 20th century, putting down a horse was a consideration. So the extra penetration of the .45 Colt was considered superior. One of the reasons the Army requested that JMB increase the weight of the .45 acp round from 200 to 230 grain.

        • Don’t forget the Colt .44 Dragoon! Loaded with 50-55 grains black powder it was the equivalent of the .44 magnum for it’s time. Loaded with standard .457 RB or conical it has plenty of penetration with expansion unlike the hardball ammo does. One of my favorites to shoot!

  2. Does it matter? No, not really. Diehards will be diehards. Besides, the battle makes for good print and face to face conversation. Be safe and continue the fight, saving our 2A.

  3. We argue about caliber because: it is fun; self-satisfaction; it is fun; showing ourselves smarter than everyone else; it is fun; some education/knowledge/usefulness may come of it; it is fun.

    Oh, did I mention….it is fun?

  4. I own a .45 ACP, I just wish that they would have been a round closer to pressure of 9mm when they were incepted. It’s a big, lazy bullet. If it was loaded closer to 9mm pressures it’d probably have beat 10mm at its own game and may have made .357 mag obsolete before it even hit the scene. That said, I would probably Concealed carry my 9mm because it’s not a brick.

    • I believe the .45ACP is considered to be the most efficient cartridge for its pressure. It produces more energy than 9mm at a fraction of the pressure.

      • Federal Reserve…[our next door neighbors…with very deep pockets]…opted for glock 21’s to go along with their mp-5’s, and benelli’s…while we [GSA] were relegated to 38’s…..

  5. 10 years ago I wouldn’t think of carrying a 9MM and dragged around my old Detonics .45. Since defensive ammo for the mousegun has gotten better I’m happy to carry a Glock 43 and feel no lack of confidence in either the gun, ammo, or my own ability to use them. besides, any threat I’m bound to encounter will likely be near arm’s length so the shot placement shouldn’t be a problem. That, and running around 150 rounds of ammo most weeks during the summer.

  6. So what does that make a Yankees fan if said fan drives a Ford F150 (with the “Ecoboost” V6) and carries a 9mm Glock?

  7. “humans are basically hairless monkeys and we do a lot of silly hairless monkey stuff”

    Speak for yourself.

    “Old guys still argue about it because it was true back when they were learning. Young guys argue about it because their dad/uncle/whomever told them when they were a kid.”

    Actually it’s because we have a bad habit of believing what we read in places like the internet.

  8. I have pistols in a lot of the common calibers: .45, 9mm, .40s&w, .380, .32acp, .38 special, .357 mag, 9×18 make, .22lr.

    But for carry, for me it is typically the “snappy, pistol and arm wear inducing but not as cool as 10mm…” .40s&w! Yep, it still works, even if it fatigues FBI agents and wannebes everywhere. Or I go with .357mag. Or 9mm, but I tend to prefer a jframe in a pocket holster to a micro 9mm single stack. I have a .45 I want to carry, just haven’t put night sights on it yet, so I haven’t taken it out.

  9. First picture sums up what is wrong with the gun culture. Don’t try to sell me crap by saying “Be a man, buy XYZ.” You don’t have to use a certain weapon or even own a weapon to be “a man”. Strength, courage, mastery, and honor. There you go, I summed up being “a man” for all you guys.

  10. I live in California, so I’m sure our Massachusetts brothers and sisters will agree, that I’d rather have 10 rounds of .45 ACP than 10 rounds of 9mm. If I’m in a state where I can legally own a double stack 9mm with 21 rounds, I’d take that like anybody else would.

  11. 9mm vs 45? 10mm is for real men whats the old saying don’t go into a gun fight with any caliber that doesn’t start with a 4….

    • Because 11.43x23mm sounds more impressive than 9x19mm?
      Should we recommend anything that is at least 10mm (.40 inch), just like the preferred amp in the movie “Spinal Tap” that goes to 11 instead of the typical 10?

      I recommend reading Greg Ellifritz’s study on the effectiveness of various calibers.
      For those who prefer not to read, there is a video:

  12. “Modern” ammo…..well that means about 25 years. So we are talking when Bill Clinton was doing Monica. Not that long ago. Both these rounds had been around for nearly 70 years prior. There were only a dozen at most guns that ran them reliably. JMB the genius he was, was coming up with the pinnacle of firearms designs that have lasted over a century. These classic semi guns were still working some kinks outs. They all were up against wheel guns that were decades ahead. The simple mechanics of wheel guns allowed for magnum loads before WWI. So if the FBI tries out 38 Supers then wheel gunners had hot 357 magnums.

    The reality is that the second phase of the handgun battles is JUST NOW settling down. Probably another 20 or 30 years to sort it all out. Oh…and when it does, wheel guns will still be around and still going boom every time you pull the trigger. Big nasty bears will meet their end to big wheel guns. And Dirty Harry will still get cheers.

      • Shove a G lock into your assailant’s ribs (while he’s stabbing you), pull the trigger and get back to us. I don’t see where seeing how much muck you can shove into the works of your weapon has much to do with real world reliability unless your real world involves crawling on your belly through a cattle yard.

        • Worked for George Zimmerman and his Kel Tec. FYI a contact shot works like a HEAT round. The hot gas jet does more damage than the projectile.

        • Yes, Zimmerman’s Kel Tec jammed from the first shot, but he was damn lucky he didn’t push the slide out of battery, in which case no bang. I would imagine you’ll be pretty pumped up with adrenaline and you’re likely to jam your muzzle in hard. It may take two or three more stab wounds before you realize you need to back off.

        • I see the revolver guy misses the main point.

          Unless you are an assassin you have screwed up big time if you are down to a contact shot

        • If you consider being blind sided ‘screwing up’ you are correct. But then what are you if you pack mud into your gat and don’t bother cleaning it out?

        • The internet has ruined me. I read “shove a glock into your assailents ass” and started laughing uncontrollably, and had to re read that a few times.

    • The Canadian PM is exploring banning ALL handguns, which presumably includes all those .44 mags, .454 Casulls, etc that are so popular out west in bear country. I wonder how THAT will go over.

  13. I own 1911s in all 3 calibers.
    10mm is my favorite.
    But and here we go. Less recoil with a 9mm then a 45 or 10mm.
    So for now. 9mm wins. Easier to control the same gun with less recoil. Easier to get off a better shot one hopes when needed.

    Since we hope we never need it.
    I carry the 10mm anyway and hope one shot will do.

  14. Say you’re walking down your local mall and you find yourself in the middle of a religious terror attack. You and your .45 are the only ones standing between 17 violent perps and your family. What are you going to do when you’re standing next to 13 dead terrorists, empty mag in hand besides wish you had carried 9mm with a full mag?

    • I shoot the closest one to the exit and haul ass because unless i have a long gun i’m screwed if there are 17… but at least with the .45 you only have to shoot him once… ha ha

    • I just shot dead 13 terrorist with a handgun? I’m thinking the remaining four lost their fight and are heading to the hills.

      If this is the scenario you’re preparing for, 17 terrorist, in the middle of the mall no less, you may need to up your dosage, just a wee bit.

    • Another one of those guys assuming perfect shot placement.

      But I’ll play. If you were that badass to take out that many guys with your 45 or even a 9, my guess is you’ve put a serious dent in the morale of the enemy attackers. You’ve also likely occupied them long enough for law enforcement to arrive. If you were truly serious about this, you popped a few, withdrew to your car, opened the trunk and dug out your go-bag of 300blk and several mags of ammunition where there’s no tag limit on terrorist.

    • Personally it were me, I’d just shoot the first 6 with my .357 then pick up an AK off one of the dead guys and shoot the other 11. Not exactly rocket science.

    • Some of those 13 dead terrorists had guns, right? Grab one. Now you’ve got (another) gun. Yippee ki ay, M*therf*cker!

      Is it also Christmas, and are you barefoot?

  15. It you are in a combat environment where medical resources are scarce the 45ACP is a more lethal round because you bleed out faster. That is less important in a DGU or law enforcement encounter where medical care is close at hand and when you are dealing with one or two wounded.

    I recently did some analytics and concluded that 9mm is a more effective round in the DGU environment because it is 20-30% faster to the target. This may not sound iike much of difference at pistol ranges but against a moving target an inch or two less lead translates into a higher probability of a hit when aiming for center mass.

    • I’ve done similar calculations my friend and absolutely agree with your analysis . If you carry because you are only concerned with the one guy one fight scenario , the kind that happens at 15 feet and closer , and you have practiced with your carry gun enough that you can efficiently acquire and put lead on your target , then a big heavy .45 caliber pistol or a .357 magnum revolver may be the best choice , probably is .
      If you carry because you actually think there may come a time when you have to confront multiple shooters and perhaps terrorist in a crowded shopping center or similar , then you must consider speed and volume as both a deterrent and a incapacitating response .
      I used to carry a .357 revolver and a 45 cal. for a while and after the world started changing around me , with mass shootings happening everywhere and terrorism a real possibility where the threat could just as much be a rampage with SA rifles I slowly converted over to higher capacity 9mm defensive ammo and head shot practice sessions .
      I finally made a full transition from 17 rounds to 30 rounds and with a couple extra magazines up to 90 rounds , and with my red dot now permanently on my carry I’m a little bit scary good dispensing lots of hurt into heads, faces , necks and throats and pretty fair distances in the form of a tiny but powerful 22 WMR varminter round .
      I don’t know what would actually happen in my described scenario , of coarse , and hope I live and die without ever having to , but from what I’ve seen by my own test and what I have read and seen on videos , that little 22 magnum will incapacitate most living things when delivered above shoulders .

      • So you think that the chance of being a victim of a mass shooting or terrorist attack has gone up since you were younger? The charts I have seen for terrorist deaths per year in the US looks like a flat line and usually at most in the double digits with the exception of 9-11 in which there was no opportunity to shoot at the attackers. Your chance of being a victim in a mass shooting seems to have gone up only a little so now it is a slightly bigger risk than lightning if you are a high school student and about the same if you are older. As far as I can tell, more mundane criminal homicide is still much more likely to strike you even though that has gone down significantly. I am not saying carrying a high capacity firearm is not a good idea though (I occasionally do it myself) just that your reasoning for it is questionable.

        • In response to your retort , YES ! I have no doubt that the possibility of a terrorist attack or being caught in the middle of an attempted mass shooting have increased since I was a child . The fact that the statistical numbers are flat or just a little elevated does not reflect the reality of the current state of the world or in America . There are bad people plotting bad things with guns involving terrorism of all types today and these ideologies and plots simply were not so prevalent 50 years ago . The terrorist training camp just discovered in New Mexico is one of many . The outdoor country music festival shooting , the gun free zone attacks etc. These weren’t in schools .
          If you adjust your defense to the potential threat you are only being prudent . I don’t carry my PMR for protection when I’m in bear country , I carry one of my Ruger high caliber revolvers , but in a shopping center or concert ( usually a gun free zone ) , outside of cinching up a rifle and a couple extra mags , I’m ready for what I may encounter and comfortably so , I should add .
          When my wife and I go out , we are usually both carrying a PMR and a couple extra mags .
          I’m not in the business of convincing anyone to switch , but we all need to be aware of the current state of evil in our surroundings and compensate in what ever ways we can to protect not only our own lives but those who don’t see the risk until it’s too late .
          Everything is a target in todays world , from the local fast food romp to the grocery store to the churches , our culture is under attack .

  16. Quote: “You see, we humans are basically hairless monkeys and we do a lot of silly hairless monkey stuff.”

    Let me fix that for you

    You see, we Hoobers are basically hairless monkeys and we do a lot of silly hairless monkey stuff.

  17. Gee, I am neither insecure or easily offended. I carry what I want, in the firearms I want and I’m still walking, talking and taking nourishment. The only thing these types of articles promote is confusion and ego gratification for the writers. Get the firearms you want (yes, more than one), get lots of ammo in whatever caliber you want, then get some more ammo, spend some money to get GOOD, professional training from someone with a documented and verified track record, practice what you paid for, practice a lot, we all get enough practice, don’t we? When and if it goes sideways you will have; no warning, it will be way too close, it will be way too loud, it will be very messy. The ground will come up very fast and anything fancy will only get you killed. Keep it simple and don’t talk to ANYONE but your attorney. We all have a good, criminal attorney on retainer, don’t we? Let’s all work to keep it practical and be able to go home at the end of the day. 30

    • “The only thing these types of articles promote is confusion and ego gratification for the writers. ”

      The article wasn’t an attempt to persuade the committed, but a review for “newbies” who are not yet skeptical of the stories old timers tell newbies.

  18. If this was 1914, .45 ACP wins. Modern bullet technology favors fast ,light bullets.
    In 2018, the 9 mm is king according to most professional small arms trainers. It’s even gaining on the .9mm. That said I carry a.40 and I intend to transition to a 1911 in .38 Super, because I can, and Merca.

      • Right, anything that makes .380 better makes 9×19 better, and anything that makes 9×19 better makes .40 even better, and anything that makes .40 better makes .45 even better than than it was.

      • Not really. You can only punch so big a hole so deep with 369ft/lbs of muzzle energy. When you expand a .45 slug like you want a 9 mm to expand you tend to under penetrate.

      • Tdviiwhatever, are you willing to quantify precisely how the .45 acp is more effective? After action reports show near parity between 9/ 40 /45

        • The Army last quantified last in 1990 just after the M-9 was introduced. I cited the Joint Munitions Effectiveness Manual in the past but that is a classified document overing weapons effects from small arms to nukes. Rapid medical intervention and improved trauma care in the the civilian world has reduced importance in caliber.

        • Tdiinva, so…you’re quantifying your statement of false by retracting it? Virtual parity of non- magnum handgun calibers is why I’m going to transition to.38 super, seriously old school cool.

        • Not backing away at all. You aren’t paying attention to what I originally wrote. Medical care is a low density asset on the battlefield. A bigger hole bleeds faster which means you need to attend to the wound faster. If you have 1 medic and 10 people down you may not get to the guy in time. If you shoot 1 guy in a DGU in an urban environment he is going to be the center of attention and has a much greater probability of intervention before a wound of any caliber goes critical. You seem to have an inability to think in terms of multiple environments.

      • According to what data?

        Modern 45 and 9mm ammunition perform identically when it comes to kinetic energy, expansion, and penetration.

  19. When I want easily concealed and 10 or less rounds on board… 9MM.
    When I want concealed and to steal their soul, 45ACP
    When I want concealed and cook them at the same time 357 magnum
    When I want concealed but its deer season and those buggers are everywhere 10MM (long slide).

    Why is this a debate is beyond me.

    In all seriousness, if we spent as much time practicing as we do debating gun stuff, everyone would be able to shoot a lot better!

  20. Because Alabama Football and the SEC are #1
    And Ohio State sucks along with the Big 10.

    Not terribly different from 9mm vs .45 argument.

    Both statements are equally true or false depending. (insert scientific argument and stats here)

    Besides..it’s the weekend!

  21. I carry a .44 mag. I love .44 mag. Beats all these sissy rounds. I however have hip and back problems now… so… there’s that.

  22. I mainly shoot 9mm because I’m cheap and it’s fine for my defensive purposes. If I need more firepower I call “shotgun”😄

  23. But will any of them fire when their action is filled with Twinkies ? That’s the real question and the standard I look for !

  24. C’mon, this is easy.

    With it’s moderate recoil and low carry weight, the 9mm is the Goldilocks caliber for Goldilocks, petite women, the frail elderly and girly men of all ages.

    Plus, it’s European, which appeals to the artsy-fartsy set.

    Yes, I’d have to say that the 9mm Luger is perfection. Like Glock.

    • Recoil is a lot about perception. I have yet to be bothered or impressed by the recoil of any .45acp or .40sw I had the opportunity to shoot. I have felt the need to take a break after shooting a few cylinders on some .357mag however so I am not a “Rambo” either. I think many newbies are hammered with the idea that .40sw or .45 kicks way harder than 9mm which depends a lot on what gun you are shooting to begin with. The 9mm on some small pistols has a “jumpy” recoil which may make follow up shots harder for some users compared to the “push back” of a .45acp.

      • Yes recoil is about perception. I used to have a Ruger super blackhawk with a 4 5/8″ barrel and the guys at the gun shop told me i would “break my wrists with that damn thing”. First shot i held on both hands. After that i just used one hand. I found it easy to manage with the standard factory loads which were for rifle and handgun. Heavy handloads I am not as sure but i would not back away from them either. Still miss that gun. would love it if say Coonan came out with a .44mag in their lineup along with the .357mag. May have to settle for a Super Redhawk. I am 6′ tall and at the time weighed about 80kgs (only a couple Kgs heavier now). I am not a heavy build yet i can shoot my 8x56R or a 12 gauge shotgun happily all day. My father on the other hand is only about 75 kgs and slightly shorter and he fires half a dozen shots out of a shotgun and complains for a month of a sore shoulder. The same shotgun I snapped up one time (I was only 17) and fired both barrels at a fleeing roo. Problem was I landed it on my bicep not my shoulder. All that got out of me was a quick Oww, reload and next shot. My partner is slightly taller than me and takes a 5XL mens shirt (i wear a L or XL usually for work in heavy physical work) yet she hates the recoil of the 8x56R

  25. Because most shooters aren’t good enough to discuss what’s most important in a gunfight by a mile — human skills.

    So instead, they bicker over toys.
    Small shooting minds discuss hardware.
    Big shooting minds discuss methodology.

    • ‘…what’s most important in a gunfight by a mile — human skills.’

      Don’t discount luck. I’d rather be lucky than good in a gunfight.

  26. “Why is that? Basically, people are fundamentally insecure. Someone enjoys something that isn’t what we like and we must somehow prove those other people are wrong, providing the validation we so desperately crave.”

    this kills the man.

  27. Why People Argue About 9mm vs. .45 ACP

    Because they have not yet heard the word of the coming of the .9mm Creedmore — Bog’s True Cartridge?

  28. I prefer to shoot .45 ACP, especially in a full size 1911; so sweeet! But I carry a mini9 instead of a brick that pulls my pants down to the ground. (Then again, my (current) favorite gun is an 1873 in .45 Colt that simply doesn’t work for concealed carry.)

  29. “It’s kind of the same reason people learn that being a Democrat is acceptable. Chalk it up to bad parenting.”

    Fixed that for ya.

  30. I own and carry both 45 and 9, depending on what I’m wearing and the weather. My favorite is a 100mm rock. I used to work on a military base, so that was what I carried.

    Carry what works for you.

  31. Was talking to a friend the other night who was a surgical nurse in one of the local “teaching hospitals”. He saw a lot of gun shots in 20 years. Lots and lots of 9mm and less diameter projectiles removed from “patients”. What about 40 and 45 I asked him. “Oh, they all bypassed us and went directly to the morgue.”

  32. I have one of each, problem solved. Both are Ruger, an American in .45ACP and a Security 9. The 9mm is somewhat easier to conceal but still a fairly large gun for concealed carry. Although I do prefer to shoot the .45 simply because I am a more accurate shot with the heavier gun.

  33. when it comes to hand cannons ,you can’t beat the george hubner conversion for the 44mag, he did the 458 belted x1&1/4 ” it would stop a bull moose with one shot . just a little rough to shoot one handed ,but all you need is one round. mostly the other five was ballast.

  34. The 1911 guys make fun of the GLOCK guys, the GLOCK guys make fun the 1911 guys, the H&K guys act like they’re better than everyone else and the revolver people have bingo at 3:00pm in day room.

    You forgot one group… The CZ’ers, quietly smiling at everyone bragging about their Glock/1911/H&K/Sig.

  35. All the talk about penetration and expansion mean a lot less if we are discussing head shots , Unless you’re defending yourself against the elephant man , most heads are 7-9 inches and accuracy and velocity are your primary objectives .

  36. Dear Newbie,

    Disregard the false choice betwee these rounds and the assumption that you’d prefer a semi-auto.

    .357 magnum revolver FTW!!!

  37. “Any ballistic advantage is merely incremental or only matters on paper instead of in real-word results (competitive shooting aside). Given good quality ammo, neither produces a wound much bigger than the other, nor is one more consistently fatal to bad guys.” Please site a study with sufficient data to determine this. No, Marshall and Sanow had crap data, maybe the best available at the time, but still crap. Myself, I don’t think there is conclusive evidence either way.

  38. That’s FORD vs Holden in Australia. With turbo 6 or as large a V8 as possible. A quick count says I’ve owned 9 Fords so far.

    Chevy is the imported thing not many people bother with.

    • The ford Holden debate is all but dead today, production car racing is all but dead and if you drop a burnout they take your car off you.
      The safety nazis are killing this country.
      I drive a 1957 FE Holden ute bog stock.

    • “A more more important question is Who’s On First.”
      ————-
      Radar – I’ll get right on it (that call to your broker) first thing tomorrow.

      Burns – I don’t want it first thing in the morning. I want it first thing now.

      Radar – Uh, well, I can’t get reach them now, sir.
      I’ll be calling them yesterday.

      Burns – That’s ridiculous!

      Radar – Oh, no, sir. They’re 16 hours behind us.
      Our today is their yesterday.

      Burns – It’s 5:00 in the afternoon!
      Radar – That’s here, sir. Back there, it’s 1:00 yesterday morning.

      Burns – When would it be “now” there if it was our today here?

      Radar – You see, we don’t have the same “now,” sir.
      By the time their “now” becomes our “now,” this’ll be then.

  39. I’m a firepower guy. Face someone on PCP or dirty meth and that 5 shot .38 is pretty weak. At the end of the day there isn’t much difference between 17 rounds of 9mm, 15 rounds of .40, or 13 rounds of .45. There’s a lot more sauce in 7 + 1 of 12 gauge or 30 + 1 of 5.56.

    Sure, there’s your typical gun fight, but I like to be as prepared as possible for the sh!tstorm.

    • Sh!tstorms are why I keep a scoped AR in the truck. In that scenario I have 6 shots to either get to the truck and introduce my little friend to my new acquaintances, or find cover and get the speed strip out. I think the Double Taps will take care of the meth heads. People carry .38s and .380s for ease of carry, not effectiveness in combat. Between the two though I’d take the snubby since the heavier slugs will penetrate deeper.

      Odds of me ever needing the AR are probably pretty low though.

  40. I’ll start by saying that both are a decent choice, they both work. That being said, the best modern 9mm ammo still wont leave as big a hole as the best modern 45 ammo. It’s a matter if you really think you need the extra capacity or if you’d rather have more effective rounds in your gun. I dont plan on ever needing 15 rounds without a reload ever, so I prefer bigger holes, but that’s a personal decision and it is preference.
    I dont carry either, but I’ve had a lot of time with both. By the way, I must be the only man in my 30’s that “plays bingo at 3pm” because a 44 magnum will do things the 9 or 45 simply wont, and it’s a good idea to carry the best gun you can carry on a daily basis. If you handload you can make bullets to do more than what people would expect from a handgun, from 44 special plinking loads, ideal defensive rounds, to magnum rounds pushing into rifle territory for muzzle energy.

  41. While I have been a fan of the 45ACP for 50+ years, I have learned to like the 9 & 40 in REALLY GOOD (read Federal HST) ammo. However, I still subscribe to the (TRUE) saying – “a smaller bullet may expand, but a 45 sure as Hell won’t shrink!!!”

  42. uncle told me a story about a guy in Korea taking out a doped-up chinaman equipped with a burp gun with a single shot from his .45…one shot vs 70…that’s enough for me….

    • That’s why I like Underwood ammo and their xtreme defense ammo. Rifle velocities from a pistol in many of their loadings. Copper is harder than lead and their ammo feeds and functions like ball ammo and causes more damage than hollow points.

    • I think his speculation about the Judge is a little optimistic. You’ll be getting .45 C olt levels of muzzle energy out those .410 shells which is about 1/6th the energy from a 12ga. Also, you’d be lucky to get 2 pellets on ta rget at 25 yards. Otherwise, if you’re up against an enemy who won’t go down with a psychological stop, shot placement trumps ca liber, and that can be more of a matter of luck. Heart, spine, aorta, major arteries are all small targets, so the Judge might have an advantage at 5 or 10 yards.

      Also from the prepper’s angle, what you take depends a lot on where your destination will be. Are you heading to the hills to live off the land? Is there a safe haven you just need to make it to alive? Or are you headed off to join the resistance?

      • I agree, the speculative conclusions at the end are highly likely erroneous. Specifically the speculative love for the .410 shotgun shell revolver and for the .454 Casull.

        The .410 doesn’t pattern well out of a revolver, and the combined muzzle energy of all 3 or 4 pellets is on par with 9mm in terms of muzzle energy.

        On the .454 Casull yes, it has very high muzzle energy, but all the other data shows that for handguns muzzle energy didn’t matter after you got past the .22LR, .25ACP, .32ACP. The data shows the .380 works just as well as the .357 Mag despite the latter having ~3x the muzzle energy. Is having 10x the muzzle energy as the .380 with the .454 Casull going to make all the difference?

        • Maybe I’ve just got a misconception so deeply ingrained in my logic that I can’t see the facts for what they are, but if I had to take a bullet to the chest I’d rather take the .380 than the .454.

        • @Gov: There’s no data for the .454 Casull, but the data he presents shows the .357 Magnum is no more effective than the .380. As to why that is, I don’t know for certain. Therefore it is impossible to say that the .454 Casull will be more effective than the .357 Magnum or even a .380. The data we have suggests that’s not the case.

          Myself, I don’t want to be shot by any of them. However, being shot with one of them is not the same as being shot at by someone with a handgun chambered in one of them. Maybe there’s a link between misses or poor shot placement and more powerful calibers which explains why in total they’re not any more effective even though the round makes a larger wound cavity and transfers more energy into the recipient. Hard to say…

        • SD, I’m thinking most of that 14% are the result of poor shot placement. If you’re determined to continue the attack until your soul departs this world it probably doesn’t matter much if you’ve been gut shot with a .380 or a .357. In fact the higher recoiling rounds might have a little higher rate of poor shot placement, although I can’t imagine an LCP would be any different.

    • Cool video…and there you have it, now you can leave that heavy .44 mag at home in bear country and take your far more comfortable to carry 9mm, or even your .380.

  43. As more Libertarians Liberals and the Left, work to keep our national borders open, with no filter, they will gladly allow terrorists into the country and more criminals as well.

    Just as Sweden has allowed criminal migrants into their society. Now they have grenade attacks daily.

    I think the best option for a hand gun is a high capacity 9mm.

  44. I like:
    9mm
    .40SW
    .45ACP
    .38SP
    .357MAG
    10MM

    Just find what works best for you, in a platform/handgun you like, you can afford, you can handle and you like practicing with.

  45. I am in the 9mm camp for the reasons of: capacity, cost, availability, controllability, quick follow up shots, and modern ammo really makes 9mm more on par.

    But to me this is splitting hairs when no one is correct. Caliber wars among the common handgun calibers is like arguing about which is better at drag racing… a stock Toyota Camry or a stock Honda Civic. The answer is neither. Your handgun sucks at quickly incapacitating threats because it is not a 12 gauge or a center fire rifle. It doesn’t matter if it has a hundred or so more foot pounds of energy or an extra couple of rounds. Let me know if something has 1,500 more FPE and 20 extra shots.

  46. one advantage that .45 has that 9mm just can’t touch is that middle aged eyes can see the holes in the paper targets in the dimly lit local gun range much better with a .45 than a 9mm!

    so as a practical matter, i enjoy shooting .45 better.

    for Soldiers and cops, especially Soldiers, .45 makes no sense because it weights twice was 9mm ammo weighs, and ya gotta carry what you need on you. Pistols are secondary or tertiary weapons for most Soldiers who are issued a sidesrm.

    for citizen self defense, IMO the .45 vs 9mm debate is irrelevent. DOES NOT MATTER. Either will do as well as can be expected of a handgun. The most important weapon is using your brain, some where down the list is shot placement, and caliber is waaaaay down the list of priorities.

  47. I have 9mm and 45 ACP REVOLVERS. My HK refuses to sit next to either the 1911’s in 45 ACP or 9mm and hates the Glocks in 45 ACP. It’s fine with its G26 and LCR 9mm girlfriends. Grandpa 629 just shakes his head at all the whippersnappers.

  48. 45 ACP is definitely a more powerful cartridge than 9mm. But, the 45’s extra power may not matter in some situations when used against humans. It **can** matter, but such is difficult to quantify. I simply keep guns in both calibers and use the right platform for the job. Smaller guns are possible with 9mm which gives them more versatility in size.

    • How does it have “extra power”?

      Because when one looks at the energies produced by both cartridges and the penetration figures, they are both identical.

      The only way to get ‘extra power’ is either with 45 super or 460 rowland.

  49. In my point of view, and my broken english,
    Why do war ships carry big cannons and small cannons.?
    I see for myself when i was in cuba, what happen when you are hit by a 45. And believe me i rather get shot with. 9mm,
    That is my point of view.

  50. “The 1911 guys make fun of the GLOCK guys, the GLOCK guys make fun the 1911 guys, the H&K guys act like they’re better than everyone else and the revolver people have bingo at 3:00pm in day room.” BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

  51. Myself, I prefer the 9mm. I’m very comfortable with it. I reload so I can pretty much have the load I prefer. In my CCW. I carry 147 gr. Hollowpoints. Slowed down to around 940fps. Same as 45. Carry what you feel comfortable with.

  52. When it comes to handguns in combat situations, multiple center mass hits are better. The advantage of a handgun is that it is always with you. As they say, if you plan to go to battle take a rifle or a shotgun.
    The advantage of the 9mm in pistol form is that in rapid fire, it is easier to shoot rapidly, control recoil and stay on target.
    To me the most important is the ergonomics of your weapon. Basically, all major calibers can have success. Majority of handgun shooting situations have short distances and extremely short time frames.
    Pick a handgun that feels good in your hand, is easy to point, and is in a acceptable caliber. for combat.

  53. I have owned both, in 1911 one a .45 acp Gov. one a Commander in 9×19 mm.
    I liked both, sold the 9 mm to my brother and miss it to this day.
    I still have the .45 acp.
    I feel that due to my experience as a Marine and a civilian in my mid sixties if I need to poke a hole in something that threatens me or to shoot for pleasure and score I can do the job with anything from .22 lr up to 105 x 607 mm Caliber.
    Hits count, target placement is what kills, wounds and incapacitates, regardless of the number of rounds you shoot, carry and the caliber of the weapon.
    I have carried the .45 and the 9 mm and never felt less or better armed with either.
    Heck sometimes the situation I am in demands I carry a small .25 acp pistol which I do.

  54. Funny how this article only perpetuates exactly the same behavior it attempts to defuse, and most of you fell for it hook line and sinker. LMFAO, to all the below 70 IQ Neanderthals that fell for it…..

  55. In my opinon when you analyze the ballistics over the years which shows the huge improvement with just about every calaber you see the 9mm delivering quite a lot of energy and expansion to do the job. Combine this with the concealed carry difficulty of the larger gun and the probability of a confrontation which is at very short range and very quick again the 9mm shines. The newer guns lie the Sig P365 with 10/12 round capacity makes the point again. Finally the personal preference factor will usually make the choice.
    My two cents.

  56. Sam, “they’re no different from you or me” not you or I. I’m impressed with the from instead of than but, once you use a preposition like from, the following nouns or pronouns are objects of the preposition and therefore in the objective case. You’re a “righter”?

  57. Then there are the poor slaves living in or traveling to/thru the Peoples Republic of New Jersey where hollowpoints are banned.

  58. I thought I was reading something written by Hickok45. Roughly 668 words to convey 200 words of semi-useful information. And, it seems implicit that the author considers himself psychiatrist (I would’ve said psychologist, but those people need their own rubber rooms), a ballistics expert, and a comedian. Now we know why people think and act as they do with regard to calibre choice and debate, all proffered with some misguided sense of levity. What rubbish!

  59. Quite some time ago I read of the 9mm vs 45acp debate being settled by filling two 5 gallon plastic buckets with water, then standing on a loading dock with the buckets on the ground maybe 4 ft. below, one shot into each bucket, it was reported the 9mm round made a good splash, the 45acp upended the bucket and therefore all its contents. That was the story, since I was not there I couldn’t say, but I tend to believe it.

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