I’m a huge fan of Krav Maga. Of all the so-called martial arts, the Israeli method of personal self-defense makes the most sense to me. And while Israel’s post-Munich massacre wet work and the raid on Entebbe made me proud to be a Jew, not everything Israel does on the self-defense front fills me with confidence. Given the reliability of modern handguns, the “Israeli method” (keeping the chamber empty until you’re ready to shoot) makes no sense whatsoever. And this guy, Tomer, is an idiot. I don’t care how “hardcore” your training system, you do not stand in front of the firing line. Ever. Am I wrong?
Home Training & Technique What’s Wrong With This Picture: Israeli Tactical Edition
Let’s just say I’m less than impressed.
Admit it Farago, if you were a Chinese Buddhist you’d be pimping Kung Fu. We’re not fooled.
I agree. It was not that impressive. Kind of strange at 1:04 where he puts in a final around at point blank to the target next to him. Seems just silly. The only thing it was missing was Adam Sandler playing the Zohan.
Reminded me of this:
When you fancy yourself an action hero, it’s not too long before you find out that you’re not.
I would rank the intimidation factor of this video slightly above the Al Qaeda on monkeybars one.
I don’t put any part of me on the business end of a loaded chamber – for any reason.
There is a reason SWAT teams practice not lasering each other.
I visited Israel about 8 months ago, and one of the things I noticed about the Israeli soldiers is that they sweep their weapons EVERYWHERE and at EVERYTHING, and it seems like they don’t even realize they’re doing it. I was in a group that had some off-duty Israeli soldiers in it, and I asked one of them why the armed soldiers kept doing that and his answer was “It’s okay, there isn’t a round in the chamber.” All I could think was that Jeff Cooper would probably have a few choice words for these people.
Many of our attitudes about firearms safety are informed from the context of having them available to the public, and for a variety of uses outside of law enforcement or military applications. Our “Universal Safety Rules” therefore have to encompass all of these use cases, as well as a wide variety of training levels – or lack thereof.
In other localities, firearms ownership by anyone outside of military or law enforcement circles is rare, and there is no significant participation in hunting or hunting. Their notions of safety do not consider the possibility of encompassing those untrained, or those using firearms in a self-defense role.
If it is the cultural norm for firearms to be carried only by the military, and then only un-chambered, the notion of never muzzling anyone seems prissy and uninformed.
Conversely, given the (culturally accepted) necessity of carrying chambered for self-defense, the idea of a sloppy attitude towards muzzle awareness seems foolhardy, and carrying un-chambered indicative of a lack of serious skill, training or confidence.
Oh, well I’m sure glad that you’re here to tell me that having a rifle barrel pointed at my head twice an hour was only a difference in cultural norms and not because the 19 year old conscript was fucking irresponsible. Thank’s for clearing that up.
Well, I’m sure glad that you’re here to tell me that having a rifle muzzle pointed at my head twice an hour was because of a difference in cultural norms and not because the 19 year old conscript was completely irresponsible. Thank’s for clearing that up.
I think you fail to get the point, while simultaneously demonstrating it … nice work.
And yet…are you comfortable with the soldier, cop, or otherwise “bonafide” person muzzling you with a simple “there’s no round in the chamber”?
I get your point about ideas of safety and etiquette being a function of setting and social norms based on the experiences of the locals. But the human mind can conceptualize. Let it do so in this case. Most people in Israel have done something like lock their keys in their car. It’s just a matter of superimposing that moment of closing the car door in the absentminded certainty that the key was not in the car with a similar certainty that “the round is not in the chamber”.
Sometimes best practices transcend culture. Thus the “universal” in universal safety rules.
I never said they were “right”, I only explained why they THINK they are right, why we THINK we are right, and why we each consider the other wrong.
Cultural relativism has long fallen out of favor due to logical flaws in the theory. Therefore, don’t give me that BS about perspective. No, in this case, it’s all about cause and effect.
If I don’t muzzle sweep people, I know it. If I do, everyone can see it.
Plus, I can keep a round in the chamber to save time which is very likely to save lives.
If I’m muzzle-sweep agnostic and don’t have a round in the chamber, everyone thinks they’re safe. Yet, if I do accidentally muzzle sweep someone with a round in the chamber, everyone still thinks they’re safe. No one can call me out on an error before someone gets accidentally shot.
They must have been 8-0-4 jobniks. For me and my friends we all were extra careful, even though we were without one in the chamber.
Most times we went without one in the chamber, i.e. on base, if not guarding, off duty, at home. This prevents stupidity moves. I admit I kept one in the chamber when at malls, or areas that TSHTF. Then again my best buddies were an ex parabat from South Africa, and a Georgian who fought in the resistance against Russia. I guess we were just different in a lot of ways.
None of them printable. Even here.
The “Israeli carry” method makes sense in context. You’re dealing with a lot of young people who are not gun nuts (I use that in the best sense). For them the gun is a tool that they are required to have around, not a way of life or a religion. They’re not carrying that M-4 on the street to deal with a mugger after all. Also, for an M-16 type weapon, if I’m in a stressful situation, I’d really rather just have to yank the cocking handle and then be good to go then mess around with the safety. Of course, I shoot lefty, so I’ve never liked the M-16 safety.
An argument can be made that it all depends on the “rules”.
The rules of gun safety that we typically think of in the USA are to 1 treat it as loaded, 2 keep muzzle in safe direction when handling, 3 keep finger off trigger dammit, and 4 know your backstop.
These rules are a system that should keep us safe, but they don’t, because not everyone follows the rules. That is its weak point.
So if the Israeli system of gun safety is that people should leave an empty chamber, then it will be just as safe as our system of rules, and its weak point is when people fail to follow the rules.
The problem with hinging gun safety upon an empty chamber is that there is no way for bystanders to check your compliance.
In the US safety model, when I sweep my muzzle over you, and you say, “Hey, don’t f’ing point that muzzle at me,” you are helping me to be safer by pointing out my violation of a rule that you can verify.
In a world where the empty chamber is the basic safety mechanism, I’m going to feel more comfortable pointing my muzzle at you, and you are going be less likely to help me to be safer.
The empty chamber safety rule is dumb.
Plus the American safety system is a layered system. You should be following all 4 rules, but even if you get just 1 for 4 you can probably avoid a serious accident. All the while our system leaves you just as ready for action if not more so than the Israeli system that requires you to take the time to chamber a round.
I stopped watching the video when I saw this idiot run past a corner without checking to his left to see if anyone was there. He would have been killed if an enemy was there in the corner, that he did not check, and instead kept running at the wall/door.
I noticed that as well. Between that, his low thumb on his support hand and the bad electronic Muzak, I had to stop it.
Thumb on thumb is a valid way to shoot bro, tacticool thumbs forward (while superior in control) is not the only way to do it. I taught my parents thumbs down to rid them of their put thumb behind the slide problem.
It was TWO! TWO STAIRWAY DOORS!! OMFG!!!
I would have enjoyed seeing a pretend bad-guy stick his foot out from that hidden corner and trip him.
Does that make me a bad person?
I don’t see a problem.
I dont personally agree with Israeli carry.That doesn’t mean someone can’t defend themselves with that method.Furthermore ,not all of us civil shooters are Robbie Leatham.The more folks who carry inevitably means more idiots and absent minded will be armed.Atop that,not everyone has the resources or ability to be a proficient shot.It costs money to shoot,and it costs money to attend a training course.In some states,a citizen could spend more then the price of a gun just getting the darn carry permit to start with.If you’re working 40 hours a week with kids to feed,blowing $200 a month on ammo just ain’t gonna happen .Yet,such people still have a need to defend themselves.
I’d rather someone carry Condition 3 and know their limitations,then carry chamber hot with no experience in safe gun handling .That’s the stuff IGOT articles are made of.
When your stupidity gets you dead, it IS true that you will not appreciate the problem.
Other than that, you’re all wet. With blood.
Check out Systema…..breathe and relax.
Never stand in front of the firing line when people are drawing their guns; not only is it dumb, there is no reason to do it. Some other things I noticed;
> at the start he doesn’t “pie” the corner very well, he’s too close to cover and he sticks his gun out around the corner repeatedly.
> what’s with drawing to a gansta cant? Is that so he/they can chamber the first round efficiently??
Guns, IMHO should not be carried unloaded; that too is dumb. My gun clears leather with a round in the chaber, hammer down and safety off.
Dude in video is a big boy. He can stand wherever he wants.
Dude in the vid is a big TARGET; he appears to present way more mass than he should/have to.
He can. Until he’s curled up in a bloody ball.
What I meant to say is, he is an adult. If he feels as though all the weapons are cleared, who cres if he stands in front of the firing line.
Yeah, his cutting the pie and cover skills are not very well performed…
As for the gangsta lean, I’ve attended courses that teach one hand shooting with that stance: lock your arm out and cant it about 15 degrees inboard, then make a fist with your weak hand and cover your chest with it…supposedly helps with accuracy and control…and provides some cover to your vital organs when you don’t wear armor.
But you can’t see the sites when you “gansta lean”. Also, in the vid it looks like they cant in order to charge the gun because its coming out empty.
Please make your point without trolling or insulting fellow commentators.
Michael Moore could have been the *action star* in this video. Except he runs slower. A whole lot slower. And I don’t see him running unless the buffet is about to close.
Yeah, you def don’t want to be in between Michael Moore and the end of the buffet line at closing time. Talk about a runaway freight train!
Michael Moore does NOT run. Except when the line at the burrito stand is getting longer, FAST.
But usually he can have one of his UZI-armed bodyguards muscle him into the front of the line.
Take heart, TTAG’ers… he’s gonna do a MAMA CASS one day, before too long!
These complaints are all personal preferences. People are mistaking their training for gospel.
If all the weapons are cleared and the instructor wants to talk to people with known cleared guns and no one is pulling any triggers, what’s the big deal with standing in front of the firing line? It’s not something I would normally do, but guns don’t shoot themselves and if there is no ammo, then it is safe.
This is like the rule that you don’t stand in the propeller arc of an aircraft. It’s a good rule. But if you need to work on the propeller, it’s kind of hard to avoid. You just make sure you are very careful with the safety when you do so.
It’s also interesting to me that for as much as people talk about “train like you fight” and “training scars” like picking up brass and reholstering empty mags, and “I can’t EDC that gun because it’s got a safety and I’ve spent forty thousand rounds training without one,” those same people are really averse to doing anything downrange ever, ever, fvcking ever. It makes me wonder what would happen if they suddenly needed to shoot something, but there was someone downrange. Not in front of them, not in the line of fire, just visible downrange, let’s say at a 30 degree angle offset to the line of fire. Are they going to be able to overcome the training scar burned in by years of “NEVER DO THAT” and do what needs to be done? Or will they hesitate?
You’re really onto something Matt, something that I think about time to time here. I generally don’t comment on safety issues since more is better when you don’t know the audience. That said though the required level of consideration for safety to maintain actual acceptable levels of safety decrease with increasing levels of training. If I’m going to be training or training with a random group of shooters at the local range I expect to practice, and expect others to practice far more safety that I would or expect with higher end SWAT teams or elite military groups.
More specifically to your question Matt, I’ve been down range while others fired and I have engaged targets many times in training with someone down range of me. It is necessary not only because of the ‘training scars’ you mentioned, but also to facilitate maneuver training that simply isn’t possible on a linear range.
Consider the dynamic entry: Lead man through the door picks his direction, and so the second man maybe turning left or right depending on the leaders choice. Both are headed to the corners while the rest of the stick makes entry. When the third man clears the door there is already someone ahead of him to the right and left while he covers the center. Given differing room shapes, furniture locations of BGs and ect means these are not spread out in a line, they are staggered all over a room. Frankly if you cannot engage targets at the sorts of ranges typical of an such an entry without shooting others in your group you simply have no business conducting such a task. . . and to learn to do it you have to train to do it.
Incidentally, when putting together a mixed entry team, that is, one that has not trained together, it’s typical to put the least experienced man on the point position, since no matter what he does-break left, brake right, cut the center- those behind him simply continue the movement, left, right or center, whatever he didn’t do. There is however another reason the least experienced guy gets point position. . . no one is exactly comfortable with an unknown quantity being behind them in such a situation.
Back to the matter at hand, standing in front of a cold range is rather like standing on a street corner.
In that vein, when it’s ‘your guys’ your comfort level is going to be different that with those you haven’t trained with.
the safety nazi range masters here need to have a nice tall glass of STFU.
the truth is that during a DGU, you will have targets around that you dont want to shoot.
“Israeli method” (keeping the chamber empty until you’re ready to shoot) has a historical reason – in the beginning IDF was armed with hodge podge or arms and it was impossible to universally train on. Some of guns were too worn out as well to carry a round in the chamber. So as resulresult a procedure of – rack the slide -shoot developed
Glocks are best carried in holsters, but if you do Mexican carry or Clipdraw carry its best to keep the chamber empty with Glocks or similar guns with short trigger pulls and no external safety. Been alot of ADs where the guy thought he could cram a Glock into his backpocket like a Smith Bodyguard and lost part of his ass. Racking the slide takes all of one second so its not as big a detriment as many think.
“Hodge podge or arms?”
So sometimes they had no arms, only Hodge Podge? But it was kosher, right?
In Israel the assumption has to be that any of those strangers bumping into you on the street are trying to steal your handgun from your holster and use it on you. Your assailant may take a moment to figure out he needs to load the chamber. This pause allows time for a throat strike or heal palm and retrieval of the weapon. Not a bad policy if you are obviously a member of security or in the military. The same thinking might not apply in a slave state or somewhere that demands concealed carry but I’ve never lived anywhere that prohibited me from carrying openly. On those rare occasions when I do so in an urban environment, I follow the Israeli method, which takes a tiny fraction of a second to slingshot a round into the tube.
All these zealots hating on Israeli Carry. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. All these guys whinging about condition 1 come off like Meal Team Six.
Meal Team Six
This is now officially my favorite gun-related thing ever.
At first it sounded like maybe it would be some sort of super cool tactical adult happy meal, after further thought, the internet ninjas on meal team six eating the meal team six meal was even better.
I prefer the Obama method, which has something to do with drone strikes and telephone records.
Your PRISM algorithm score just went up two points Ralph. Damm, mine just went up one point for posting here. I love Obama. Now I’m back to even. Government interrogation at 500 points. Drone strike of your house at 1000 points.
There are no minuses in the system. Only pluses. Nothing ever erased or converted, only added to.
We don’t have the manpower, and we sure as shit don’t have the inclination.
I saw a qoute once by a british general who had served in combat in both world wars and colonial duty in between. He said that in all the years he had experience combat in all terrains and climates he’s seen men shot by pistols approx. 30 times. 28 of these times the men had been accidently shot with their own pistols. The military culture of not chambering a round allows masses of armed men to move about with relatively few self inflicted casualties.
The Isreali military is woven into the fabric of everyday Isreali life. I can see their rules of empty chambers working for them. And after all the ND’s with Glock type weapons in this country I can understand the desire from some folks to increase their safety level a notch by carrying unchambered.
I h nothing to commet and thank you for the free advertisement.
Next time, try to call me “idiot” face to face.
I invite you to take my lessons any day, maybe you will learn smething even from an “idiot”
I invite you to take my lessons any day, maybe you will learn smething even from an “idiot”
In return he can teach you how to spell. RF may have to start off with a 1st grade curriculum. CAT C A T
Welcome to the party Tomer! Don’t take it too personal, RF doens’t like cops, FPS Russia, or Sons of Guns either. It was just your turn today…:)
Thank you for your service to Israel sir. I see no need for casting aspersions on these web boards over disagreements over training styles, but alas it happens.
James Yeager gets pretty lousy treatment here as well, and he has offered tons of solid free advice via the internet. I would be proud to shake either one of these fellows hands simply on the basis of their RKBA positions.
I agree. At least Mr. Tomer is in the arena and not one of the sniping Internet bystanders.
“It doesnt take any training to shove a gun in a mans belly and pull the trigger.”
Go choke on your own firearm, Zionist pig
You need to find yourself a good Jewish wife and relax.
I notice you ain’t closing the ground between you and the Zionist pig, rtempleton. Just another key board commando? Gotta get a bus pass from mommy before you leave the basement?
Much like Noam Chomsky, I’m no longer allowed in the state of Israel, so the internet will have to do.
The jihadis aren’t allowed in Isreal either. But they find ways and have the strentgh of their convictions. Apparently you just have a keyboard.
So the internet will have to do
Only a coward would give up so easily.
I wonder if that comment is really from him.
“Much like Noam Chomsky, I’m no longer allowed in the state of Israel”
Well, it seems your luck is running strong even when you wish it wouldn’t.
Are you serious ?? You shouldnt be trying to train ANYONE .. You are lost … I thought your video was a joke when i first saw it ( i am begin dead serious ) .. There are several serious problems that you have going on … I will let your video speak for itself .. At 56 seconds in your video you slap the trigger so much that i cant believe you really think you know what you are doing ( yes some peeps like Robbie Leathem do a controlled slap and can pull it off ).. not so much in your case.. You sir have the grace of a turd.. Learn how to pull a trigger .. You are the one of the worst teachers i have seen … You are a mess … Man oh man please go to someone who knows what they are doing so you can learn something … Good luck .. You are gonna need it ..
We call one of my shooting buddy’s MASSAD because he won’t holster a pistol with a round in the chamber. We practice quick draw against each other(we’re aiming down range and not at each other), and I have one in the pipe and both hands on my head. I don’t draw until I see his hand move, and I beat him every time because he has to waste time racking the slide.
This guys training aside.
If the range is cold, and everyone’s weapons are verified clear what is the problem with standing downrange and lecturing if everyone is holstered?
Yes, you are wrong.
The death of Ahmed Bouchiki was not something to be proud of. It is a shame his murderers aren’t still in prison.
Jack Bauer’s mommy supplied the Black Panthers with hand grenades.
And “Jack Bauer” tortures children in front of their parents; while the Black Panthers FED hungry children!
I’m proud to stand with Mrs. Donald Sutherland.
Send him to train with the SADF…now those mfer’s are some badasses.
No, you’re not wrong, Walter You’re just an asshole.
I just watched this video. Wow…..
He makes James Yeager seem, almost, sane. Almost.
some people need to shut the f^ck up about the stances and him being in front of the firing line.
Combat is not a 180 degree NRA certified range.
jesus. the fudd mentality is really ridiculous sometimes.
What I first noticed “wrong” with this video is that at the first corner the slide is locked back! There isn’t even a clip in as he mouths the bang, bang, bang.
I’ve been in a class where the instructor (a well known and respected individual I might add in a relatively advanced class) who occasionally stands a yard or so down range, positioned in a location that’s roughly between two shooters on the line. It sort of unnerved the two closest shooters at first, but everyone adjusted though every single shooter was noticeably more deliberate in their movements when they were one of the closest shooters to the instructor. At no time was a muzzle ever pointed directly at him. I agree, it has no place in a basic level class. But as classes get more advanced, you start moving and start working around people, you find some different things being done. It isn’t for everyone though.
That something is different from what you may be familiar doesn’t mean that it is wrong. What Tomer teaches is what Israeli military teaches and further what Israeli secret service teaches. Israeli military takes people who may have never handled a handgun before and within a couple of hours has them drawing from the holster and putting three rounds in the target in about one second at realistic combat ranges with a combat mindset rather than a marksmanship mindset and all done safely. Most other methods are just getting done showing pictures of nomenclature and sight alignment/ sight picture about this time. Yes the most of those people will carry their secondary with an empty chamber and still achieve that. More experienced units (tier 1 etc.) will not carry empty chamber and Tomer’s training progresses to that very quickly. These are counter terror tactics used by Israeli secret service. The objective is to get to the terrorist as fast as possible and kill him so he can’t kill more people. It is not heal toe heal toe team entry and room clearing. Different mission profile, different tactics. As more people become educated in the effectiveness of this method we will perhaps see fewer people killed in active shooter situations here in the U.S. One operator takes the initiative and aggressively ends the threat rather than waiting for a team to show up. When you see Tomer in front of the line all weapons, all magazines have been checked. yes the civilian thought process is that we never point a weapon at anything we don’t want to shoot, but all military know that in training exercises we point our weapons at each other to practice assaulting and defending objectives etc. Tomer is a professional and I highly recommend his training, especially if these concepts are unfamiliar to you.