Florida Carry, Inc. regularly organizes an event called Second Saturday, where folks gather to take advantage of the tenet of Florida law that says it’s permissible to open carry while hunting, fishing, or camping, or traveling to and from those activities. Florida is, with very few exceptions like that one, most assuredly not an open carry state. The events often take place at a lake or beach or pier, and folks bring their BBQ guns and their fishing poles, and just have a good time and attempt to engage in a little public education. I’ve never personally attended one, but reactions, from both the public and LEOs, can vary considerably. Most recently, there was an event in Jacksonville . . .
covered by firstcoastnews.com, and although it’s a largely neutral to positive article, I do take issue with one small quote from one of the attendees. It’s the old joke that someone asks him why he’s carrying a gun, what he’s afraid of, and he jokingly responds that “with the gun I’m not afraid of anything.” I dislike that, and here’s why. I’m not generally afraid of “giving ammunition to the anti-gun folks,” but I think that in that situation, you’re largely dealing with people on the fence, and I really don’t think that flippant answer is going to sway anyone in our direction, and it might actually even push them away. Thoughts?
Your Lockdown of the Day™ comes from Cincinnati, Ohio. While several of the lockdowns I’ve featured recently have been notable for their brevity, this one is going to set a new record for the opposite. Lincoln Heights Elementary went into lockdown on Wednesday, and will remain on lockown through the end of the school year, June 2. The decision to undertake the long-term lockdown was made at a school board meeting Monday night. It is a reaction to the mid-morning shooting of two individuals on a nearby streetcorner, which followed a few months after a single random bullet went through the back window of an empty school bus and lodged in the front wall near the driver’s head. Prior to that, in August of last year, a young child was shot while inside a vehicle in front of the school. The lockdown will eliminate recess and extracurricular activities for the 200 students in preschool through fifth grade, and will require visitors to be buzzed in through the main office. Due to the randomness and unpredictability of the violence, there is some talk of closing the school down entirely and redistributing the students, but most parents and neighborhood residents do not consider this a valid option. [h/t ctsheepdog, DL]
It’s sort of a gun, just a really big one. The Anniston Army Depot will be building the next model of the M109 Self-Propelled Howitzer, the A7 model, better known by the name given to an earlier model, the Paladin. The big gun can drop rounds on target at ranges of up to 40 miles with scary accuracy, especially if you’re on the receiving end. The Army plans to buy 133 of the vehicles on a $668 million contract to BAE Systems, with delivery of the first machines expected in December. The contract runs for four years and is expected to bring $25 million to the Depot, sustaining the workforce in the slowdown due to the end of our most recent two wars. Hopefully before the contract runs out, we’ll find ourselves embroiled in another mess that will keep these folks employed for another decade or so.
Yadda yadda, Colion Noir new video, yadda yadda…
Lumberjacking, the 22plinkster way…
That was louder than I expected.
I really don’t think that flippant answer is going to sway anyone in our direction
I agree. We have to be perfect. We need to ride around on unicorns, feeding the lepers and healing the hungry and maybe walking under water.
Or maybe we can just be human beings. Oh, that’s not good enough? Too bad.
But that is not what he said. He is talking about a specific situation – a rally meant to draw public attention and sway public opinion – where every word matters. If you are drawing public scrutiny, why give ammunition to the enemy?
Ralph, that’s an unusually rude and unthinking comment from you, even given your recent turn in the last few months to the acidic side. Your comment might make some sense if I was speaking of how someone acted when they were out doing their daily business at Walmart or Home Depot in an open carry state and were accosted by someone somewhat belligerently asking about their armed status. But this guy wasn’t. He was attending an event whose stated purpose is spreading awareness about gun rights and the like in a state where open carry isn’t the norm, and instead of taking a prime opportunity to educate, he used that opportunity to show that yet another gun owner is a smartass, if not a little bit of a jerk.
I have to defend Ralph. His comment wasn’t unthinking.
I agree with Ropey, it actually does require a lot of thought to post something as stupid as what Ralph posted.
Or maybe that’s how having a firearm makes him feel? I know I’m less troubled by what life can throw at me when I’m carrying.
I agree with Ralph. There seems to be an attitude among some that we need to be perfect little angelic gun owners so that we don’t piss off the fence sitters (or the antis, for that matter), and I think its pretty stupid to come down on one comment from one gun owner at one rally trying to explain how a gun makes him feel.
Have you not seen how quickly Bloomberg’s minions can twist words and situations to further their silly little cause? When you put yourself in the spotlight at one of these rallies in a state that doesn’t have normalized open carry, you owe it to all of your fellow local gun owners to present the best possible message.
If the point is to draw attention, especially the attention of the fence sitters, why wouldn’t you want to make sure your shit is in order? Just to piss off the antis and fence sitters? That’s asinine.
Eh, Ralph is just our version of Shannon Watts — he’s stubborn and can’t see past his own self-righteous, if misguided “cause”. Neither extreme end of the gun debate has a feasible or functional end goal.
The goal of the pro-2A side isn’t to allow everyone to OC a rifle everywhere they go.
It’s about making sure people have the freedom to arm and defend themselves with equal force vs. tyranny and anyone that seeks to do you harm is the goal. It just so happens that equal force is firearms.
OC vs. Concealed carry is an entirely different issue. The pros and cons of which have yet to really be measured, though it seems OC is more problematic because people aren’t doing it responsibly.
This debate is about not limiting law-abiding citizens access to firearms if they personally feel the need or desire to own one. A need or desire that doesn’t need to be qualified by a court or government by simple virtue that they are not a felon and they obtain their firearm of choice legally.
“The goal of the pro-2A side isn’t to allow everyone to OC a rifle everywhere they go.”
I don’t know whom you think you’re speaking for, but the unalienable civil, human, constitutionally-protected right of “everyone to OC a rifle everywhere they go.” is precisely the goal of at least this one member of “the pro-2A side.”
I’m with Ralph, too. Acidic, yes, but he’s talking to us, not the press. That answer is an old joke, but it also counters the hateful attack from antis that we must be cowards, they alone are so brave and wonderful that they can venture forth unarmed. And such a comment would normally be delivered peacefully, with a smile, countering the shrill and frantic voices usually raised against firearm ownership, particularly on a single syllable, CHIL(dren).
And, BTW, one of my goals certainly is to have people able to legally carry a rifle everywhere they go, since that is a part of the definition of “uninfringed”. If people are not OCing responsibly, I haven’t heard about it. That would be endangering others, likely by plinking in town, perhaps. Let’s define some terms, here, before tossing them around.
I think Ralph’s comment is spot on.
This site is a lot of fun but it does have a strong tendency to accept the premise of the anti-gunners, such as this fearful comment that “flippant” comments are counter productive. I disagree. What you might call a flippant comment is actually a refusal to accept the terms of the anti-gunners logic and point out that there is another way of looking at the issue, and the physically weak can defend themselves by using 19th century technology rather than rely on size and muscles.
Florida was an open carry state until 1987. There is nothing wrong with them carrying openly, even though FL currently severely limits this practice.
I think the the best answer to the question of why I carry (open or concealed) a gun is because I can.
My real reason requires a lengthy discussion regarding protecting the rights that are enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
I think the 1st Amendment is under greater threat than the 2nd Amendment.
I typically don’t open carry, but when I do, I drink Dos Equis.
“with the gun I’m not afraid of anything.” I understand your concern on giving the anti’s information. Also the concern for the fence sitters.
IMO, this comment is rather tame, also old news. Consider the unbelievable stupidity in actions and words, by some of “our own” (gun owners, 2A supporters), on a daily basis. Some of this stuff makes the stupidity by the anti’s look positively brilliant.
So, no, this comment goes down as not much of anything.
Actually, it is an old joke–cop stops an elderly lady for a traffic violation, she tells him she has a gun in the console just so he’ll know. He says, “Have anything else I should know?” She then goes on to tell him she has another gun in the glove box, and yet another under in her purse. He says, “Wow, what are you afraid of?” and she says, “I ain’t afraid of nothing now.”
Don’t know who to attribute this to, but I recall a quote from some reporter asking Marines in Iraq how they felt about being “In Harm’s way.” The Marine responded, “We aren’t in Harm’s way, we ARE Harm’s way!”
Well, damn. I had NOT heard that one, and its a good one. Also true, at least for the Marines I have worked with.
Mac and Z-Man looked noticeably uncomfortable throughout that clip.
Matt in FL, I tried to comprehend why the paraphrase of “paranoid? Why would I be paranoid? I’ve got a gun!” should be a problem. I finally got it. You noticed the guy isn’t carrying cocked-and-locked. Of course he’s in no position to speak his mind freely to a pajama-boy press. Nice .45, though.
I wouldn’t carry C&L with that holster either. Retention holster that puts the release pressure precariously close to the trigger guard? No thanks.
I thought that holster was interesting, couldn’t place just why. It is about 3 times the size of my 1911 holster, wonder why?
Because that appears to be a long-slide 1911? What kind of holster do you carry?
I guess I’d have to say the smallest I could find (dunno brand, might be Chinese for all of me) still has about 1/2″ of holster past the end of my 3″ 1911, so my 4″ sticks out, a long slide would stick out farther. I had seen (but couldn’t find) one which essentially did not cover the barrel at all, held the gun with a snug fit covering only the area defined by the trigger guard. Thus would fit any 1911.
Lincoln Heights should have been on lockdown since the day it was incorporated.
Actually, it sounds like they finally increased the security at the school to match the risk in that neighborhood. Not a Lockdown, but increased security.
I question the term lockdown, here. My understanding is you don’t go home when you’re locked down. Or are they having parents pick up and deliver the students each day.
But hey! Why not tell lockdown stories. Here is NOT a lockdown, from just outside Austin. High school is probably 3 miles from my house, little strip mall with a jewelry store about midway between. So three guys with britches sagged to their knees drop by the jewelry store in their stolen T-Bird, and wind up shooting one of the employees before running off. One is caught, but the other 2, armed, make it into the woods which have my house on the far end of them. The bride and I see a patrol car wandering up and down our dead end street, mosey down about his third pass to see what’s up. He explains, then goes back to patrolling while I retrieve a bigger gun than usual. By this time a couple hours have gone by, and they have been reported miles away, everything is cool, cops are gone, except then these goons stop one of my neighbors to ask where the Interstate is (20 miles away), he tells them it’s right over there and goes home to call the police, who return in force, with airplanes and helicopters beating the bush. Finally, its about time for my granddaughter to arrive home from middle school, the bus drops her PRECISELY where the neighbor had this conversation, so the bride decides to drive up to meet her, and I decide to go along, .45 on my lap, AR in the back seat unloaded but with a mag ready. The sole concession made to this armed robbery/shooting/manhunt for armed criminals by the school is that bus drivers were instructed to deliver the kids to their homes instead of just dropping them as usual, our driver saw our car waiting, and our granddaughter told her who we were, so she went ahead and dropped her off. I guess TX just doesn’t get quite as panicky as most.
The two guys (minus the gun) were caught an hour or two later on the side of the road, standing out like sore thumbs, hadn’t even thought to pull up their britches and straighten their baseball caps so they wouldn’t stand out quite so much.
Sorry that the author of this article thinks people have to be mascots for a cause instead of people. But guess what, they are people. The people against others right to carry will be that way regardless of logic, that is on them, As long as the interviewee isn’t violating anyones right he could be the biggest dick in the world and I would back him 100% on the issue of being able to carry anyway he sees fit.
Supporting his rights is not the same as supporting the cause. If that statement, when broadcast by national media, no matter how right and just it may be, turns away potential supporters, then it is the opposite of helpful. Matt is not saying that these people need to be mascots, but that if you are attending a public rally which is designed by its nature to draw attention and sway public opinion, that your message needs to be capable of swaying public opinion. Making a statement like, “my gun makes me unafraid” merely plays into the hands of anti gun folk who claim that we cling to guns out of paranoia and fear.
Sorry but “the cause” is a individual hangup. I support his rights under the current US constitution. that is all I ask for, everything else is extraneous. Don’t confuse your preference with the a requirement for anyone else.
I am not asking anything of you, or requiring a thing. What I, and what I believe Matt is saying, is that if you are going to put yourself in the limelight as a spokesperson for gun owners, you should make damn sure your message is effective and not playing into the stereotypes that have been leveled against us.
The “cause” is the maintenance of our god given rights. It is a motherfucking shame that we have to maintain them, but such are the times. If you don’t support that cause, then stay the hell out of the spotlight.
I reject your attempt to infringe on my 1st Amendment rights, as well.
“I reject your attempt to infringe on my 1st Amendment rights, as well.”
Infringe on your rights? Seriously? You’re the kind of guy who just keeps saying “Am I being detained?” when approached by a cop for any reason, aren’t you?
What makes you think he put himself anywhere. That again is a projection and your wise to dehumanize him but make him a symbol for your cause. He took part in a open carry demonstration was asked a question and answered it. That is it. He doesn’t owe it to you or anyone else to extol what you think he should or what you feel is better for “the cause”.
Lord Wulfgen, You are blatantly attempting to tell me what I may say, may your tribe increase. What I say to a police officer is none of your damn business. What I say to a news camera is none of your damn business. Are you getting this yet? Reread the 1st Amendment, while remembering that is to protect us from the politically powerful. From you, a simple KMA should do. Can you grok that?
I agree that there should be some substance to the answer of why one carries. Gov. Deal of Georgia made a statement when he recently signed the law expanding gun rights. Borrowing his reasoning for the law and paraphrasing;
“I obey the law and carrying a firearm allows me to protect myself and my family from those who do not obey the law.”
Our Gov Deal is great. Very pleased with his performance.
If the question is simply “why”, the obvious answer is “why not?” and let the reporter try to come up with a cogent answer. OTOH, if the question is “what are you afraid of” the answer given is fine.
Does someone have any evidence that a quip like that has turned the minds and hearts of fence straddlers to the left or those on the left to make a “meya culpa” and skid to the right?
That sounds too far fetched for me to believe. I try to live in this universe, not an alternate one.
I don’t know of any specific evidence, that’s why I expressed the opinion and asked for responses. I know that I, as a gun owner and everyday carrier, roll my eyes and sigh when I hear someone give that answer when someone asks. As has been pointed out by a couple commenters above, the main point of the Second Saturday walks in Florida is not the masturbatory experience of being able to carry your gun openly and stick it to the man, the main point is supposed to be spreading awareness and showing that we’re not a bunch of gun crazy lunatics. So when a bystander asks a question, even if the question is the somewhat confrontational “What are you afraid of?”, that’s what’s known as a prime fucking opportunity to educate, if not the person who asked the question (who might be hostile), but possibly anyone else who might be nearby listening. Ergo, a flippant answer is, in my opinion, at worst detrimental to the cause, but it is at the very least a missed opportunity. Does that make sense?
My standard anwser is “when seconds count, police are only minutes away”
It’s a visual statement, which are the most effective. Folks will have an image of bad guy with knife, not enough time to even dial 911.
I’m thinking someone should make nice information business cards that list the most practical statistics no-nonsense statistics that really “justify” the carrying of a firearm. So for those people that can’t articulate well (or just have to be snarky), they can just hand out one of these polite even-tempered info cards that explains the logic behind carrying a firearm.
That way we avoid the unfortunate sound byte, we get the message across, and the antis can just stare at the usual statistics that don’t lie which they keep trying to twist.
Do I remember correctly that the Paladin is the one that can have six shells hit the target at the same time by firing them at different angles to arrive at the save time on target?
That’s the one! First shot is at most verticle angle, then reloads and calculates for less steep angle, and so on. 6 artillery rounds arrive at same point at same time (all from one gun) making for a very bad day for somebody.
I can’t be the only one here who think of C&C Generals when they think of Paladin tanks, right?
You’re not alone.
All you dang whippersnappers!! When I hear Paladin I think of Richard Boone in the old Have Gun Will Travel tv show. His business card read:
HAVE GUN WILL TRAVEL
Gunslinger with style, AND a business card. Loved that show. My MOM loved that show!
LOL! Glad it’s not just me…
I thought the Paladin was the one with 17 CHA….
The evil gun grabbers will never be swayed to our side, so it’s ok to tell them to @$#&.
It’s not about the “evil gun grabbers.” It’s about the random people who might be in the park that day, and see the open carriers, and think “Hmm, that’s interesting, I wonder what’s going on there,” and then ask to find out.
The true gun grabbers are less than 1/3’rd the population. Its why the presidential approval will never go below 30%, they are the people who would support the president even when he burns children to reduce carbon emissions.
Most Americans presented with facts will weigh their opinion based on what they see. If they see reasonable people willing to speak with them reasonably with facts to back their positions you can sway them ever so much. It doesn’t take much nowadays. It sounds bad but you have to give people enough to hang themselves. Choices have to be made, and people need that information.
Well, sorta. I have to accuse you of sounding like an incurable optimist. There! I said it!
It’s not the gun grabbers I care about. It’s the people in my small circle of friends that are fence sitters and open to the possibility of at least learning about firearms from some place other than the mass media. In that regard I am an ambassador for gun rights since I choose to try and raise their awareness of the facts, and more importantly with the misinformation presented by MSM and other sources. I claim not to be perfect, but I do everything I can not to make the simple/stupid mistakes that could turn them off. It takes many words to sway them to our side… it takes but a mere one act to turn them away (not necessarily forever) and believe the misinformation.
The correct response to such questions should be as follows, “Do you have a first aid kit in your car or house? If so, why? What are you afraid of? I’m not afraid of anything, I’m simply prepared.”
Exactly, “Why do wear a seat belt? do you plan on getting in an accident?”
I think the best answer is “why do you carry a spare tire?”.
Because it leads to “…well, because I don’t know when I might have a flat, and it would suck to have a flat and no spare … oh!”.
Too late for that one. My car doesn’t even have a spot for a spare, figure all will be like that in 10 years.
I’m 61 yrs old. Sometimes I’m the youngest person at the range. Makes for a warm feeling, don’t it?
Used to be like that at the range I use, but it’s not anymore. all the same old farts are there, but now crowded out by those in their 20s and 30s, men and women both, THAT makes me happy. Talked to a kid the other day, big ass grin on his face, looking over something like an AR-10, said his Dad just got him an AR-15 for his 18th birthday, he loved shooting it so his dad proposed they hunt ’em some pigs. The kid (sneaky little bastard) says “don’t I need a bigger gun?” so dad says go pick one out. I told him that .308 would impress him far more than the 5.56 did, considered buying it myself (it was pretty cool).
As I recall the paladin had its own drone and a laser to shoot down missles, but those damn chinese would just use napalm missles…
“There is some talk of closing the school down entirely and redistributing the students.”
Yeah, that’s the right answer. Don’t clean up the shitty neighborhood, just close the school. Too bad those kids still have to live in the crime-infested shithole, but at least they’re “safe” when they’re at a school halfway across town, right?
Well… yeah, actually.
Mr. Noir’s video applies to law abiding citizens too you know. I’m talking to YOU, open carriers. When you open carry in highly public areas it:
1. Calls attention to you.
2. Calls attention to your gun.
3. Scares the sheep.
3. Usually results in someone calling the police.
4. Police waste their time responding to the call of a “person with a gun”
5. Your time is wasted and police time is wasted.
No one wins in the above scenario. It wastes everyone’s time. It makes gun owners look bad because YOU are disturbing the peace because you are putting your personal preferences above public disturbance.
It’s naive to think everyone should know the difference between a good guy with a gun vs. a bad guy with a gun. And really, with concealed carry being a perfectly viable option which doesn’t have any of the above problems, why do people insist on OCing and potentially causing a scene when it can be easily avoided?
And I’m not talking about OCing in the woods or secluded areas. I’m talking about OCing in suburban, urban, or other highly public areas. Go ahead and OC during political rallies about 2A, but doing it during any other time is sure to cause (some) people to panic, and it gives any antis a free headline by calling you in to the police so they can (in their hopes) harass you and make the rest of us look bad.
Sure, should people know the difference between suspicious behavior and a law abiding citizen with a firearm going about their day ordering a coffee? I would hope so, but that exact scenario was called in.
The fundamental difference is when the bad guy starts shooting, and the antis are quick to pretend we’re all bad guys waiting “to snap”. To their point, we all look the same before the SHTF. And to the average person, anyone toting a rifle around in any urban area could be a threat / suspicious person. So you can’t really blame them for being on alert. After all, it’s not impossible to think some criminals might use that to their advantage.
Sure, the average person with average intelligence may know something about guns and what is going on. But just visit Peopleofwalmart and those are the sheeple that will freak out because they don’t know the difference, and really, you can’t blame them.
Bottom line: Don’t scare the sheep. Solution? Concealed carry.
When / if things go to hell (a natural disaster, invasion, attack, whatever), go ahead and OC all you want as there is precedent to be “at the ready”. But until then, keep it in your pants, Mr. Operator.
All the super pro-2A people that don’t comprehend that disturbing the peace is not a good thing and doesn’t help the image of law abiding citizens is not helping anyone.
Why is it so hard to understand that not everyone is comfortable with firearms, and to act accordingly? All of you folks that act elitist because you own firearms are just as bad as the elitists that think no one (but their bodyguards) should own firearms.
At the end of the day, law abiding citizens don’t have badges or uniforms to designate us as good guys. So don’t assume people magically know the difference when you’re wearing tacticool gear along with your rifle / pistol rig in an area that is more likely to be struck by lightning twice than be shot up by a crazy person.
There is no reason you can’t carry deep, be alert and be responsible. It is minimal effort on your part and bonus: you gain the tactical advantage of not sticking out like a sore thumb to criminals.
My 2 cents.
If a right is a right, it doesn’t matter who it bothers its a right exercised.
If your argument is it scares people to open carry so people shouldn’t do it, I have to say at its core that is a very weak argument. It would be akin to telling a black man in the 60s that its scary if he is out marching he should just put his head down and protest in silence, you know so he won’t scare anyone.
The speed at which people who claim they are pro gun turn on each other is crazy, and over such petty things as open carry.
“If a right is a right, it doesn’t matter who it bothers its a right exercised.”
Interesting. Please name any right where your premise holds true when it comes to disturbing the peace?
For example, we have “free speech” but you can’t go off and yell obscenities in public without eventually calling attention to yourself and being asked to stop disturbing the peace.
And thanks for highlighting the exact attitude that is part of the problem. It does matter who it bothers for the reasons I already stated above. The sheep can’t tell the sheepdogs from the wolves.
I’m not sure how comparing OCing a rifle is the same as racial inequality in the 60s. For one thing, OCing is a choice. Being African American isn’t a choice. African Americans in the 60s couldn’t “disappear” or blend in any more than they could change their skin color. Nor should they. They were born that way. You, on the other hand, weren’t born with a gun strapped to your leg. OC is a conscious choice. And it has consequences.
Like the idiot who open carried his rifle just days after someone shot a TSA agent in an airport. Bravo.
The gun owners mantra is guns are tools. Well, then act like it and use yours effectively. Don’t scare the sheep. Your gun doesn’t define you and it’s not a fashion accessory. Gun ownership and the ability to OC isn’t some form of inequality. It’s simply common sense.
Think about it. If everyone was open carrying rifles and pistols and a bad guy starts shooting, what will happen? For one, there will be more hesitation and it will take more time to assess who is the bad guy when you can’t tell anyone apart (this is assuming criminals aren’t so stupid as to dress overtly).
How the hell will you know who is innocent if everyone is carrying gun? And even if you did know who the bad guy was and you put them down, who’s to say another good Samaritan with a gun that didn’t see you but was in earshot and happens on the scene won’t think you are the bad guy?
OC is not exactly efficient nor is it reasonable to think everyone should when it’s peace time. We aren’t being invaded nor are we at war. Criminals exist, sure, but you don’t need to OC your AR to Walmart to do your groceries, do you?
I think you underestimate the value of concealed carry. Keeping guns on the down low serves the purpose of making criminals have to expose themselves to commit a crime. When CC is the norm, it’s guy that’s waving their gun around that sticks out at the bad guy.
There’s a reason police and military wear uniforms — to tell the good guys from bad guys.
“Interesting. Please name any right where your premise holds true when it comes to disturbing the peace?”
All of them. More to the point, your position falsely assumes that the open carrier “disturbed the peace” when those who made a scene and/or called the police actually “disturbed the peace.” You wrongly equate the ignorance of the caller or the offended nature of the gun control nut with a normal, lawful reaction. No one, and I mean no one, has a right to be free from being offended or a right to be free of apprehension. Your position boils down to nothing more than “let’s avoid being noticed by our leftist overlords lest they attack us more.” It’s a losing strategy and always has been. You may not be interested in a war with gun control nuts and other leftists, but they all consider themselves at war with you. Your only choices are fight, submit, or die. They will allow you no other. Your stated position is submission. May your chains rest lightly upon you.
With all your complaint, you are doing the same thing, specifically conflating being black to demonstrating in the ’60s. Demonstrating was a choice. OC is the same choice, asking for the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution. Demonstrating for equal rights in the ’60s, OC today, exactly the same. Now, you may continue.
I agree with David. While I personally choose concealed carry over open carry for its tactical advantage, I’m not going to deny someone’s ability to carry as they choose.
Dude, the sheep get scared of their own shadow. If we have to tiptoe our way around the sheep all day, we’re gonna get nowhere fast. The only place the sheep see guns are in movies and video games, where they are used to kill people. That’s the only experience non-gun owners have with guns, so yeah, I recognize perfectly why people scared of guns. But you know, repressing their collective fear doesn’t help at all either. Open carry, when done right, can help us get the public to face that fear, and then realize that their fear of us is completely unfounded when we don’t instantly draw and start wasting people when the Coke machine eats our money.
I hope when Open Carry is made legit lin Texas gun gals will start carrying openly. Our gender is for the most part, perceived as a non-threat, plus we tend to have really good looking guns & holsters.
I have a Ruger Talo version 3″ GP100 .357 open carry on own property out in the country, in a mahogany leather cross draw custom holster with craved large bear paw with claws. I would wear unloaded, with concealed Ruger .38 LCR in pocket holster, so if someone wanted to see the open carry revolver, it would be safe, assure not shot with my own gun and know it will be handed back to me .
I can hear it now “911, there is a woman with a gun here! What is she doing?.Grocery shopping. It’s legal, don’t call back!”
Cute. But, please, do not draw a gun in public, particularly one which you know to be unloaded but nobody else does. And I hope, when OC comes to TX, actions such as you describe will be illegal, called brandishing.
Guns are not a fashion accessory to be brandished/passed around in public. Since you’ve stated that you want to carry an unloaded pistol with which you can get attention, you’ve shown that you don’t have the maturity nor proper mindset to carry.
Also, how do women “tend to have good-looking guns and holsters”? Taking a gun and making it pink or purple means that you “tend to have good-looking guns”? If you’re not referring to the aforementioned pink/purple guns, then what are you on about? Where are these special “good-looking” guns that only women seemingly have?
Find another hobby, please.
“Open carry, when done right”
This is exactly my point. If there is a right way to do it, then there must be a wrong way to do it.
Wrong way = wasting police time, scaring the sheep intentionally, and getting negative attention.
Sorry, tj, the ENTIRE point of Open Carry demonstrations at this time in our political history is to get the attention of people who are unreasonably fearful of POTG.
Dare I say it, it is the social equivalent of homosexuals coming out of the closet, or blacks sitting at the whites only lunch counter. Some people are going to be annoyed, frightened, upset, and possibly want to strike back, but the right to keep and bear arms is a natural, civil, and Constitutionally protected right and no one has the option to tell us no or force us to pretend we are doing something naughty or anti-social by peaceably carrying a gun for self protection.
Like those other movements, change will only come after enough people are willing to rock the boat and demand attention be called to the issue, no matter how the anti-2A people feel about it.
Well yes and no. I find it interesting how TTAG frowns on the militarization of the police but isn’t OC essentially the militarizing of civilians (visually speaking)?
And we don’t have the benefit of having “good guy” uniforms?
To be clear, I’m all for people carrying whatever they want without causing panic, and I’m all for OC when SHTF. But in times of peace, what is the purpose of OC? When our soldiers come home, do they stroll around their neighborhoods decked out in all of their gear just like they do overseas?
Yes, people shouldn’t be afraid of guns and people should be educated on what is “lawful” behavior with a gun and what is suspicious behavior. But that’s easy to say and it’s not fair to assume everyone should just “deal with it”.
There are steps law abiding gun owners can take that ensure self-defense that has minimal (if any) negative impact on public perception of law-abiding gun owners (ie. concealed carry).
I guess people could get desensitized to seeing tacticool folks with ARs all over the place. But is that overkill? What real purpose does it serve?
And here’s a problem I have yet to see addressed:
You have the military, you have the police, both of which have clearly identifiable uniforms. Think about it, why the uniforms? So they know the good guys from the bad. Armed civilians don’t have uniforms. No one can tell us apart from the bad guys. There probably a very high chance of an armed good guy getting shot if they ever intervene against a real domestic threat when there are police nearby.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t intervene in the event of domestic terrorism, of course we should if we are able to do so without being ventilated by other good guys, but this sort of identification problem already happens to CCers. Do you really think the police will respond well to OCers with ARs suddenly running around when they don’t know who is who? It’s a logistical nightmare.
Other countries where people OC do so because they are under constant threat of being bombed or killed by terrorists. See Mexico. Israel. Makes sense to me.
In the US during peace time? Not so much. Maybe if you live in a gang-infested neighborhood or somewhere with high crime. But if you don’t, then why spook the sheep intentionally?
The militarization of police that is often loudly decried here has something to do with gear, and insofar as that goes I see what you’re saying, but it’s as much or more to do with tactics and mindset. It’s the rapidly developing propensity to treat every police action like a raid, to prep and act like they’re going on patrol beyond the Green Line into a nearly 100% hostile area. It’s the habit of treating the basic serving of warrants like they are high-value target extractions of known terrorists. So while I see what you’re saying, I think you’re conflating two completely different things.
ummm–the “militarization of the citizenry” is pretty much what the Founders had in mind. They didn’t even really care that much for the “militarization” of the military itself (that is, they distrusted large standing armies), much less the police ( who are acting toward the local citizenry, not outside threats). So no, there is no contradiction at all between advocating for the arming, openly or otherwise, of the citizens while advocating against the militarization of domestic police agencies. Unless you just think the Founders had it all wrong to start with.
Just curious. Is it the goal of the 2A to be like the Disney movie the Musketeers where everyone has a sword on their hip?
Except the good guys aren’t wearing blue and the bad guys aren’t wearing red? If everyone was dressed in brown, I bet that movie would be confusing.
Actually, I think that’s pretty close. Or at least to make such a situation (pretty much everyone who wants to, carrying) legally possible. And it was pretty much like that in this country for a century or so, before we got so “civilized” as we are now.
“There is no reason you can’t carry deep, be alert and be responsible. It is minimal effort on your part and bonus: you gain the tactical advantage of not sticking out like a sore thumb to criminals.”
Because OC just screams, “I’m the one you wanna mug… Or follow home…” Sorry, I couldn’t disagree more. Just because you openly carry doesn’t make you a wolf… It’s all about respect. Now you try CC a double stack after an (double for me) inguinal hernia surgery. Some of us can’t.
“Just because you openly carry doesn’t make you a wolf… ”
Well yes, we know that, but other people (the police or the sheep) can’t see that on the surface. We don’t have “good guy” tattooed on our foreheads. It’s a bit of a catch 22. One person replied with “oh well, the police should stop responding to “there’s a person with a gun” calls. Not sure if they were serious or trolling.
“Now you try CC a double stack after an (double for me) inguinal hernia surgery. Some of us can’t.”
Well, what’s stopping you from wearing clothing to cover up your gear? Or wearing smaller gear? Especially with your condition where I’m assuming added weight is an issue?
I have 3 handguns ranging in size from compact to subcompact to fit whatever attire I’m wearing. I’m not saying it’s easy and I’m sure you’ll go through several holsters and belt combos (I know I did), but there are lots of solutions out there. And if you absolutely must wear OWB, then just wear something light that covers your piece, problem solved?
Only 3 pistols? You may wanna start thinking about expanding your collection…
Thanks for the tips and such but just because I own a subcompact, doesn’t mean that’s the only one I use for carry… Maybe I want my SR1911, or maybe an XD with a tlr1… Open carry is legal around here… If nobody OCs, nothing changes… MLK jr would have totally changed the country had he just stayed home… My point? 1 person open carrying can make the world a better place…
Whether it makes ya comfortable or not… The only way for people to get comfortable is for it to become the norm!!!
“Only 3 pistols? You may wanna start thinking about expanding your collection…”
Well, I did buy a .22 rifle recently modded to look like an M1 Carbine. Do I feel the need or desire to OC it everywhere? Not really. Why would I? I live in suburbia and everywhere around here is pretty public. Rifle bags exist (and look nice) and I don’t go anywhere without my pistol in my waistband anyway.
“If nobody OCs, nothing changes… “
What exactly are you trying to change? What benefit does OC give you that CC doesn’t already accomplish?
“Whether it makes ya comfortable or not… The only way for people to get comfortable is for it to become the norm!!!”
I suppose? It really just seems to be an excuse for people to “show off” their gear as there is no actual public benefit to OC that anyone has articulated.
The only benefit I can think of is I suppose it could be a visual deterrent similar to seeing armed guards at a location. But let’s face it, that perception is also a bit misguided. You’re now skirting close to “impersonating a peace officer” with OC and taking responsibility for other’s safety.
Last I checked, armed civilians, like the police, are under zero obligation to protect others from harm and many have already cited they are only carrying to protect themselves and would perhaps hesitate to protect others for fear of legal consequences (rightfully so).
Until law abiding gun owners are offered some semblance of the same protections law enforcement officers get before and after a shooting, well that’s not going to change.
All OC currently does is paint a target on you if a criminal is willing to go through you to do an evil deed, and you don’t have the benefit of surprise. If you’re comfy with that, that’s your call I guess.
My 2 cents is the police need to stop responding to “man with a gun”, and start explaining why, that is the PURPOSE of OC, so long as the sheep think no one around them is armed, and believe carry is somehow illegal or to be feared, they continue to live in a dream world in which I cannot live. Let the police inform them of the truth, perhaps then they will believe it.
Well they can’t really not respond to any call about a “man with a gun” unless the person calling is calm, can articulate what is going on, and if they could tell the difference between suspicious behavior and a law abiding person going about their business, then they wouldn’t be calling in the first place.
I realize it’s a public awareness and education problem. Yes, OC would be fine if everyone could assess law-abiding from criminal / suspicious behavior. But it’s not that easy. Not all criminals are dumb and not all OCers are smart.
You get that lovely gray area that is causing issues. I’m just wondering if there’s something that can be done now that stops making pro-2A folks look bad.
“You’re now skirting close to “impersonating a peace officer” with OC and taking responsibility for other’s safety”
What?! I think your trying to hard to read between lines that arnt there…
When the police get 100 calls a day, maybe 100 calls an hour, screeching hysterically about a “man with a gun”, you’ll find they certainly CAN decide to not respond, although they may well not be able to explain why, have to just hang up.
And pro-2A folks open carrying doesn’t look bad to me in general, just here in TX since it is currently illegal.
When someone asks the question, “What are you afraid of?” (and you’re not sure where they’re coming from)… You might answer with a question, “Why do you think I’m afraid of something?” Or…. “Why do you ask?”
And, then wait for their answer. 🙂
I would just answer honestly with “sharks”. Then I would ask them, “why do you ask?”
If they then admit their question was a lead-in into their questioning my carrying a gun as a physical representation of my fears, then I will simply and politely correct them in their false assumption.
If they ask why I’m open carrying, well I don’t open carry, so that wouldn’t be an issue and that person wouldn’t probably be questioning me anyway because I wouldn’t make myself a target.
But, for the sake of this hypothetical conversation with an anti, suppose I am OCing, my response would be:
I would ask them if their vehicle doors and their doors at home are locked right at this very moment. If they respond with yes, then I would ask them if they always lock their doors when they are away. Then I would ask them why. I would imagine the standard response would be something along the lines of “because I don’t want someone to break in and steal my things”.
I would then respond with “if you lock your doors every single day and every moment you are away from your personal items because you believe criminals are just waiting to break into your vehicle or home, how are YOU comfortable not carrying a gun?”
It’s a very simple human nature question. If they deny this, then I would tell them to put their faith in the common man to the test. Tell them to put their money where their mouth is and don’t lock their doors from now on and see how long it takes before someone takes advantage.
I am honestly afraid of sharks, so that wouldn’t be lying.
As for the question itself, I don’t think it would be too bad if it was followed up with useful information. If that’s all there is to it, then yeah. Kind of flippant and pointless.
I get where Matt is coming from, but it’s sad that we’ve come to the point where people involved in 2A rights are being held to a Jackie Robinson-esque standard, i.e. where everything we say or do has to be darn near perfect.
Kind of. All we need to do is not become elitist and forget that “the sheep” deserve respect and not to treat them like trash because they don’t own firearms — which is OK.
Too many pro-2A folks seem to define themselves around their firearms, which leads others to believe gun ownership is borderline fetish-ism.
Sure, it’s a fun hobby to many and many people do take it seriously to the level of hoarders and doomsday preppers. But really, guns are just a small part of that mentality and obsession. And those people are pretty fringe.
We just have an uphill battle because the media portrays gun in Hollywood in a ridiculous manner and that’s what people think guns and gun culture are like. Every single person I’ve taken to the range is pretty underwhelmed when they compare guns on the big screen and that perception vs. reality. In the end, guns are just simple tools, projectile throwers.
Some people are just ignorant and love projecting their own fears and inadequacies on others. That’s all this anti vs. pro-2A is about. One group assuming the worst from another when all the facts prove otherwise. It’s sad really.
Guns are simply the current evolution of the rock since caveman days. Why we are arguing about what rock has a 10-round magazine is just silly and utterly besides the point.
Evil people are the problem and always have been. People that seek to take that which they didn’t earn from others.
“All we need to do is not become elitist and forget that “the sheep” deserve respect…”
Does a wolf have ‘respect’ for the sheep?
Does the SheepDog have ‘respect’ for the sheep?
How about the Shepherd?
There is a reason they are called sheep. They must be herded and guided, and prevented from causing their own harm and demise through sheeplike actions.
While they do not warrant disdain or contempt (after all, sheep simply act like sheep, for they are sheep), they certainly do not deserve respect. Otherwise we wouldn’t call them sheep.
“Kind of. All we need to do is not become elitist and forget that “the sheep” deserve respect and not to treat them like trash because they don’t own firearms”
No one here treats them like trash for not owning firearms. Unlike the antis, we don’t try to push our personal choices onto others.
We are tired of the sheep trying to disarm us because they themselves are incapable of independent thought and responsibility.
It is not fear that drives me to carry a gun, but the willingness to acknowledge the evil in the world, to face it head on if it ever comes calling.
It’s no coindence that Noir rhymes with snore.
I think you’re pronouncing noir wrong.
“New-R” is the way to say it.
Except that’s not how it’s pronounced, either.
I agree with Matt.
I get that we gun-owners/carriers aren’t perfect and that we shouldn’t be mascots, but we need to be careful during an event which is specifically made to put us in the limelight.
In today’s world of hugs and kisses, I don’t see any difference between carrying a firearm and buying a 7 seat SUV with a 5 star crash rating… It may be imposing and annoying to some (like when I can’t see over your hood or through you tinted windows and have to blindly pull into traffic), but when it comes down to it… There’s a chance either could save you and your loved ones…
I don’t like or dislike the “afraid of nothing story.” I take it for it’s intended purpose, just a clever little story to help people understand what a gun provides, which is the ability to not be made helpless at hands of someone else.
The reality is you can, and likely will, still be very afraid with a gun in your hand.
Point of fact, if you’re not afraid when you have to pull a gun to defend yourself then you should rethink your job and/or life choices.
I take it for what it is, just a story.
My answer for why I carry: “Do you watch the new? Bad things do happen to good people just minding their own business. I wanted to have more options than just hoping for the best.”
There was a specific threat made to me and mine. After that threat had passed I started to question whether or not I should stop carrying. But then I thought about all the random $^[email protected]#$! I read about in the paper that could have been me. I keep local examples of those things in memory to bring up when talking to someone about carry. They usually get it.
Kanye West Anger Management Control Syndrome…
Funny… I was thinking Alec Baldwin
That would be the ABAMCS
“They have said ;what are you afraid of? What do you have a gun for?’ And I jokingly tell them with the gun I’m not afraid of anything,” said Berlinghoff.
I don’t see how his answer was inappropriate. Someone who has a stalker, a scary, abusive ex, or a victim of a crime might very well be moved by his comment to buy a gun, which would a sane response.
Thinking a tool can make you invincible is just irrational; people like Mr. Flippant aren’t necessarily dangerous but they are clueless and setting themselves up for disaster thinking such.
My claim (zero evidence) is that 90% of those who, on a given day, might deliberately cause you or your companions harm, will instantly alter their intended course of action if they spot a 1911 on your hip. Conflict avoided.
Not a OC fan, no ones business what I carry. Not unafraid but walk in confidence, that for the moment needed, equal with any other. Outcome depends on will, determination, and how much I want to live.
That is pretty damn good! I might have to steal that.
Colion Noir always tends to put a nice bow on logic. He should have added one more argument to his video. If a person has an anger problem where they believe they cannot be trusted with a gun, then they cannot be trusted with an axe, knife, baseball bat, hammer, screwdriver, shovel, car, flower pot, or any other sharp or heavy, blunt object.
“I’m not afraid of anything” is cuter than a rat when it’s said by a sweet little old lady, but by a hairy OFWG, not so much.
I wouldn’t have a problem with the “flippant” response, except there are some very valid reasons to open carry while fishing that everyone can understand. Cotton Mouths being one of them.
So with a few exceptions the answers indicate nobody cares about the verbal and physical impression they leave with someone else. If someone asks why you OC you dismiss them with flippancy as do the anti’s when we ask why they wish to grab guns when it is against the Constitution.
What Mark is saying is TRTKABA is being challenged every minute of every day. We can win one thousand battles but if we loose one with one stupid wisecrack it will make national news for a month. If we are going to win this we have to be stronger, tougher and SMARTER than they are.
Just being right won’t cut it.
“Hopefully before the contract runs out, we’ll find ourselves embroiled in another mess that will keep these folks employed for another decade or so.”
Yes, let’s just keep that military industrial complex cranking out war machines and hope we need them, maybe, one day. In the meantime, my local SWAT team doesn’t have a Paladin yet….
While with the HHB 169the FA Bde on Ft Carson one year for AT I was riding a-driver with the wrecker for my company; A temporary replacement wrecker on a 5 ton chassis and an engine from a duece&1/2. The army’s weakest wrecker. Couldn’t keep up with the convoy speed on the highway…
Got stuck in the lovely Ft Carson mud halfway up to the axles because we couldn’t get enough speed to wade across on momentum. We rigged the tow cables in the rain (up to our knees in the sh!t) and sat down to wait for someone in something bigger than a hummer to come by. A passing Paladin pulled us out in about 5 seconds flat without the weak-ass engine on the truck helping at all.
Always fun going on AT with that unit, watching the impacts on the target range on the horizon, hearing firing units all over the compass at different times and ranges from the target, with all rounds hitting simultaneously, airburst & impact while the flares they previously dropped in are drifting over it.
One vivid memory; trying to get some sleep at 0400 in a CUCV cab somewhere in the woods and find out the hard way that a battery has set up a hundred yards away: FLASH! like lightning, WHAM! and the truck rocks.