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The following was originally a comment posted by Dyspeptic Gunsmith to Jim Barrett’s M1A customization piece yesterday. But it was just too long — and too good — not to post it on its own.
The M14/M1A is, functionally, a Garand action for a shorter cartridge and a removable box magazine. It’s the result of John Garand himself telling the DOD (formerly the War Department, back when we used to flat-out win wars) that there was no way to achieve a full-auto rifle with a full-powered rifle cartridge with a .30-06 in a 10lb rifle. There’s just no way. If you review the historical accounts of the M14 project, you find that Garand was no dummy – he told the Army brass that we needed an “intermediate” power cartridge like the 8mm Kurtz or something similar to achieve full-auto fire in a 10lb rifle. But the Army brass . . .
…Not to be deterred from their damp dreams of a full-auto rifle in a full-powered “gravel belly” cartridge, barely listened to Mr. Garand and conceded to lower the power to what we now know as the .308. Which is really just a functional equivalent of the .300 Savage… but no further. We’re talking of only about a 200fps reduction in muzzle velocities from a .30-06 in 150gr bulllets. Where the cartridge really needed to go was to something like .260 or 7mm08 at 2600 to 2800 fps and a 120 to 130 grain bullet and I think .260 Rem would have been vastly superior to anything we got in the .308… and even more vastly superior than the 5.56 poodle-popping cartridge.
The hard truth is that we already had a 20-round, box magazine-fed, full-auto .30-06 rifle. It’s called the Browning Automatic Rifle and it comes in at about 18 to 22 lbs. Yes, that’s what’s needed to keep the fire on target from a full-auto .30 cal cartridge of “full” power. The M1A, owing to being only a little less powerful than an ’06, might have been able to be controlled if it had been 16 to 18lbs, with a compensator hung on it.
The result was as Jim represents: The M1A was too heavy, too uncontrollable, the ammo was too heavy… and more than all of that, our new allies and partners in the SEA war were smaller statured people (both men and women) who were more comfortable with something about the size of the M1 Carbine. So the M1A never really took off, despite being a “true” battle rifle and very accurate.
The first upgrades I’d suggest anyone do to an M1A (from a rack grade rifle) would be to replace the standard sights with the NM sights, which give you:
– a thinner front post
– 1/2 MOA clicks on the rear sight elevation
– an aperture on the rear sight that can be rotated for minute up/down changes in elevation.
Next upgrade would be to get the trigger improved. The M1A, like the Garand, has a factory trigger that can be vastly improved from the GI 9-lb two-stage pull. If you want to compete in DCM or Leg matches, you’ll need a minimum 4.5 lb. pull, which you can easily achieve with the stock two-stage trigger group. Unlike the M16/AR15, the trigger group components in the M1A/M14 are usually of higher quality and amenable to being worked on by a gunsmith.
For people who aren’t concerned with official competitions, you can go lighter on the trigger; I’d recommend that you not go below, oh, 3.5 lbs. If your ‘smith hones the parts with a very fine stone (like a ruby stone), you can make the M1A/Garand triggers feel like you’re pulling a polished glass rod across silk lingerie. You can make the stock, as-issued trigger that smooth, unlike stock AR-15 triggers — which actually are nothing but case-hardened cow patties, complete pieces of crap.
The only people who think AR-15 stock triggers are “nice” are people who haven’t had their fingers on triggers that are actually good. They simply need to get some trigger time on better rifles. Springfield 1903/A3, Garand and M14/M1A triggers all can be made very, very nice with minimal work by a gunsmith. The M-16/AR-15 . . . now you’re just talking wholesale replacement of the hammer, trigger and disconnector. The M-16/AR-15 was made to please the lowest bidder, not a rifleman.
Next, if you want to increase accuracy but keep the wood stock (and there are custom walnut stocks available for the Garands and M1A’s that are really quite lovely), you can start bedding the action into the stock. There’s about three “levels” of bedding involvement here, and unless you’re experienced in this area, it’s best to have an experienced ‘smith do the work.
For the nes plus ultra job, there might be extra lugs welded onto the rear of the receiver to increase the bearing surface for recoil as well as some added metal into the receiver area of the stock. There will be some welding of the clip that holds on the handguard up front, too. Find someone who can TIG weld competently if you want welding done on a M1A or a Garand.
With regard to bedding: Don’t start experimenting with novel or new bedding compounds – stick to epoxies that give known results, such as Acra-Glass or Marine Tex. Too many people babble on about which bedding compound is “harder” or some such nonsense.
The real secret to a successful bedding compound is that they don’t shrink over time. Many of the supposed “new” compounds do shrink over a period of years, and the owner is left wondering how the rifle “shot it self loose in the stock.” It didn’t “shoot itself loose” – the compound just shrank over time. In many other applications, it doesn’t matter that the epoxy shrank by .005″ over two years. In bedding, it does.
Stick with compounds that have a lot of time and experience behind them. Don’t pick a $1500+ rifle as a guinea pig for epoxy experimentation. Hogging out old compound from a M1A stock to re-do the bedding isn’t fun or painless. You’re going to pay for it, one way or the other.
Then, after bedding, you should remove the action/barrel from the stock as little as possible. Learn to clean the weapon in the stock, from the muzzle. The M1A conveniently puts the nut for opening the gas system up front where you can get at it without pulling the rifle from the stock, and unlike the AR15, doesn’t spit gas into the action. You really need only clean the gas piston/cylinder area, then the bolt, chamber and barrel, and you’re done. If you want to use mil-spec lube on the action and op rod, get some Lubriplate 130-A “rifle grease,” but any light lithium “white” grease should do fine at non-arctic temperatures.
Then learn to reload for the M1A – or pony up the serious money required to buy Federal Gold Team Match .308 ammo, with the 168gr match pills. At over $1.50+/round for the Federal match ammo, you can achieve significant savings over this price by learning to reload and buying 168gr match pills yourself. You should stick to well-established loads; don’t try to achieve the hottest loads, because you’ll beat the rifle’s bolt and action up. Pay attention to the requirements for crimping so as to prevent bullets walking out of the cases, etc.
NB that so far, we haven’t replaced the barrel. We’ve probably taken your M1A from a 2 MOA rifle down to a 1+ MOA rifle with no barrel replacement.
To achieve the best accuracy the rifle is capable of, you’ll either need to pony up for a rifle with a premium barrel from the factory, or (as I recommend to shooters on a budget), shoot out an rack-grade barrel learning for about the first 3000+ rounds, then get it rebarreled with a premium barrel. Now you get into a sub-MOA rifle if you’ve done your work on the trigger, bedding and sights – assuming you’re a good shootist. If you’ve not previously used a 1907 style sling, the M1A is a rifle on which to learn how to use the 1907 sling. Get a good one made of real leather and learn to use it. If you need lessons on how, find a retired Marine NCO, age 65 or older. He’ll quite likely know how to use a 1907 sling.
With as many rifles as I own and own fondly, if I were forced to pick one and only one rifle, it would come down to either a bolt action rifle (most likely a Winchester M70 that’s been customized) or, if I envisioned a situation where I have to scrounge standard ammo, it would be the M1A. With an M1A and iron sights, I can own anything out to 600 yards in a few moments of doping the wind.
NB – nowhere here have I diverged into mounting glass on the M1A. I’ve got glass on lots of rifles. For some reason, when I pick up a Garand or M1A, I have no need of glass. With iron sights, I can achieve groups of just over 1MOA with use of a sling, a supported shooting position and premium ammo in a rack grade barreled rifle with sight, stock and trigger work. The only improvement the iron sights on these rifles could use is a way of rapidly changing apertures on the rear sight. That’s it.
No matter how many ways I tart up an AR-15, AR-15s just never seem to make it into my list of “rifles I’d select above all others.” The biggest reason(s) are the lack of good support for a real sling, all the extra money I need to sink into the trigger group to make it merely acceptable and the cheesy feel of the rear sight. The M1A makes it as a “one rifle I’d choose over many others,” and it would be my pick over any and all other semi-auto, box-fed rifles. But it probably would lose to a custom CRF bolt gun in the final selection.
Also MPs are trained in riot control. They deal with protesters who block the main gate making getting to work a joy. And in my 5 years in the Corps MPs showed up twice with riot gear ready after we got back from a month long field op, and shortly after my first deployment. The reason being groups of young drunk Marines in the infantry like to party. Hard.
Is that a photo of a real live M-14, or an M1A with a dummy selector?
Anyway, my M1A is for serious social work so I don’t know for sure if these refinements are necessary for reliable accuracy out to 400 yards. Any thoughts? I just bought this M1A even though I qualified on the M-14 back in 1969.
One slight correction: The 7.62 NATO cartridge is not a reduced power .30-06, at least not in terms of the military loads. They both achieve approx. 2750 fps in their respective rifles.
Sporting loads are a different story. The longer .30-06 case will always win out.
As far as recoil is concerned, I’ll bet with modern recoil compensators and optimized loads it would be possible to design a fully automatic main battle rifle in 7.62 NATO. After all, a .50 BMG shoulder rifle was unthinkable once upon a time.
I can create roughly identical secondary pressure spikes for you at the 1100 to 1300 microsecond mark. You don’t need any reloading equipment. Just run some Tula .223 or Silver Lake .223 through your NATO 5.56-chambered AR. If you don’t want the secondary spike, run Federal 5.56 or M855. For a highly instrumented study of the same phenomena (with nearly identical pressure-as-tested charts) see http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/. If the barrels “cleanly chopped off at 21.6 inches exactly” then the barrel production process and dimensions were flawed alike on each of the barrels. Interaction of casing material, chamber dimensions, and powder types can easily lead (and do) to secondary spikes. Ask your friends: The last five inches of barrel will not fall off at the 1/1100 of a second mark. Laugh.
I always trust TTAG to pull no punches… sounds like the safety was a big issue. Was it mainly the size (too small), or was it also too stiff to actuate as well? Also, I’m surprised there’s no video with this review… might be helpful to see the safety being used since that seems to be the main issue.
Bummer. I was hoping for a positive review of this gun since the manufacturer is pretty much located in my backyard here in WA state. I’ll probably still give it a try, but I’ll definitely be aware of how the safety works in conjunction with the gun when I do.
Hopefully Lionheart will work out the kinks in its Mark II, the railed version they’re working on.
“now being introduced to US buyers for the first time”
Isn’t it more accurate to say ‘being introduced for the first time under this model name’? I have seen plenty of Daewoo’s in the DP-51 guise in the hands of US buyers. Which sure seems to be the same exact gun with different finish and grips. IIRC the DP-51 could use S&W 59XX mags. Is that true for the LH9 as well?
I own both a M1 Garand and a M1A, I heart them both very much.
Dear lord, what a disaster of a gun… first you push the hammer forward trusting a safety to ensure the gun doesn’t fire. Then, when you are getting the gun ready to fire, you break the first rule of gun safety and you not only put your finger on the trigger, but you pull it… trusting that the gun will not go off the first time you pull the trigger, but it will the second. I am at a loss for words.
The other thing about her statement that has not been addressed is this part here:
“Guns don’t come with a lot of options. You shoot, or you don’t shoot.”
Very true. In fact sometimes just having a gun to pull on an assailant is enough even if you don’t shoot it. There are plenty of DGUs wherein the gun is not discharged. Even then if she is saying you have a 43% chance of NOT getting raped it sure sounds a hell of a lot better than zero. I would encourage any woman to shoot someone that attempts to rape them, they are nothing but a rapist at that point.
Governing is not a PR campaign. This asshat must be voted out by Virginia voters. He has no spine, or he is a deceptive “Tell them whet they want to hear every so often” POLITICIAN. If he threw his constituents under the bus once, he’ll do it again.
Has anyone noticed that whenever a politico tries to explain an action that is controversial or unpopular they refer to “poll results”, but not the poll results that required votes to calculate. On day a politician will kill me by saying that he asked his constituents what they want and I will have a heart attack.
That’s WEST “By God” Virginia, thank you very much.
sweet. Man after my own heart.
-D
@Dyspeptic Gunsmith: where would you recommend obtaining gunsmith training (i.e. as a pro and not just a DYI hobbyist)?
Not every gun has to be defensive weapon. Most of us probably have a safe(s) full of capable CCW/HD/SHTF guns.
It looks like it would be a fun range toy.
Well, Anglocin community, thanks for re-affirming the reason why I don’t go to your churches any more.
I’m Christian, I believe in God, but I will not support a church who doesn’t support me.
Did anyone else think those were targets at first glance?
Guns – because free speech sounds funny with a boot on your neck.
Good one.
“Armed Piece of Mind”
“I’ll Take Mine in 9mm, Please”
“380ACP, When a Shield Just Won’t Do”
$615 MSRP? No thanks, I’d prefer a CZ or Ruger for less bucks.
A new feature, from a firm mostly unknown to the American gun community, without a real-world track record to consider the feature and manufacturer? No thanks, I prefer proven known guns.
I’m no ones test kitchen meat loaf and thats the Truth.
Robert,
As a lifelong Anglican (a.k.a. “Episcopalian”) I can report that the Episcopal Church is in the midst of an upheaval caused by a knock-down, drag-out fight between the Liberal/Progressive and Conservative/Traditionalist wings of the entire organization. The Episcopal Church (a.k.a. “TEC”), by their actions, has severed communal ties with the Global Anglican church. The Worldwide Anglican Communion has chosen to “no longer be in communion” with TEC (in other words, to ex-communicate them) because of the actions they’ve taken, under the guise of “modernizing” the faith. I am not at all surprised by TEC’s stance on guns. But I can assure you that TEC leadership do NOT represent a large portion of Episcopalians. Many churches across the country have chosen to disassociate themselves with TEC and form a new organization – ACNA (Anglican Church in North America) to give parishes that follow more traditional Anglican theology a home. The “mainstream” Episcopal Church’ national body is pretty far out from what most consider the “mainstream,” theologically speaking. Please don’t accept what they’ve said at face value, at least as it applies to all Episcopalians – or even the majority of us. If you talk to an ACNA-affiliated church, I think you’d find that most are are much closer in alignment to your own values (from a firearms perspective) than to that of TEC. When I lived in Amarillo, the Rector of our church concealed-carry under his vestments on Sunday. When a parishioner asked why, he said that the world is not a safe place, and if someone came into church intending to harm a member of the church, he felt it was his duty to help them to see God as quickly as possible.
Don’t know what the school situation is in Austin (which is, of course, the most liberal of cities in all of Texas), but you might want to look around for a school that is a bit more theologically sound – or at least one that realizes “gun-free zone” is a euphemism for “target-rich environment.” Just sayin’.
YOU ARE the FIRST responder!
How much battery life will the watch have. If it is sending out a continuous signal, not long, I suspect. Being dead cause your watch went flat would really suck.
Doubt this will work a oven on some US model kills the computer so a guns a gun.
If we could get to the point technology-wise where I could program the grips of my 1911 to only allow use by myself and my lady, I’m all for it. I know there are downsides to this technology and I vehemently disagree with making it mandatory for any firearm, but if this system were available I would consider buying it. I’m sure there are many who would disagree with me, and I look forward to reading those comments. As always I bow to the rest of the Armed Intelligentsia. Who knows? I might be swayed.
Why do I need a gun?
Why do you need a fire extinguisher?
Guns make freedom and equality possible by preventing the tyranny of the strong over the weak.
This is destined for the halls of FAILURE. At best this can be a cool conversation piece but not a reliable weapon.
First of all fingerprint scanners are a joke.And can be easily spoofed.
Second, A smart criminal could figure out a way to jam the signal. Imagine an entire police force using this gun and a tech savvy crime lord runs havoc on the city while jamming every cop in towns gun. Sounds like a movie in the making
Last but certainly not least. Too many chances for a system fail. Like what if your shooting hand is incapacitated and you need to switch hands?
This weapon is most certainly an accident waiting to happen.
Her position is predicated upon a very casual acquaintance with the statistical methodology.
The real story here is in how the DOJ (and others) define “shooting someone you know.” It’s been widely mis-interpreted to mean “shooting a friend or family member” by the anti-gun side, when the reality is this:
You know Joe down the street. You don’t ever go anywhere with him, you’d never date him, you’ve never been friends with him, but you know him… because he went to the same high school as you did, just a couple years ahead of you.
The DOJ counts this as “knowing” the person and puts Joe into the same bucket as real “friends.” If you’re assaulted by Joe and you shoot him, guess what? It goes into the same statistical bucket as if you shot your BFF, when Joe was nothing of the kind.
Now, let’s continue with the analysis of Joe: Let’s say he does sexually assault a woman he knows… in this very casual and tenuous definition of “knowing” the attacker, is someone going to hesitate to shoot him while he’s assaulting you?
I somehow think that a woman attacked by a “Joe” level of acquaintance isn’t going to hesitate as represented by the above analysis in the shooting of “Joe” when the alternative is rape… or rape and worse.
I support ALL of the individual liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.
The behavior of some people in this thread, most notably Leo338, is disgusting. She’s wrong, of that I have no doubt, but some of you are assholes, and she can change her mind. The Facebook-esque quality of the comments section lately is really dragging this place down.
Abdicate your responsibility to defend yourself, you get what you deserve!
That thing is friggin ugly in so many ways. And digital watches were never cool.
This whole RFID thing on your wrist watch makes me think of this:
Our Rights are unalienable- regardless of whether we choose to exercise all of them.
Well my gun is my wand, therefore I must be a wizard. Since they dont have guns/wands, I believe that makes them muggles.
whats wrong with snap caps?
Well, at least Matt in FL can now rest easy knowing Magpul is closer to bailing from CO and potentially selling to LEOS in civilian restricted states.
I’ve been proven correct yet again. Never, never, never, EVER trust demoRATS to protect your 2A rights…when will people accept reality?!
Isn’t MarkKelley an Astronaut? From Arizona?….
Him testifying on gun regulation is like me being an expert on death because my daughter died…
most people dont even know who alex jones is. good video.
One should not be buying a gun for someone who is not legally allowed to own it. Simple as that. That is just plain stupid.
what really galls me is when people say, just give the criminals what they want. What if its your 21 month old child they want? or to molest or assault you?
Check out this photo from Colorado’s “1776 Ladies For Liberty” F*c*book page (via billll with 4 Ls):
And check out this photo at the Denver Post:
I grew up in Colorado. It used to be a very libertarian (little l) place. Then lots of folks started moving there from California, and now it is very liberal progressive.
I lived there again for a few months last year. I will never live there again.
Not a proponent of warning shots in general, but if you choose to do so, firing in the air like a celebrating terrorist is a horrible idea. Try to hit something which will stop your bullet. Or shoot your door (according to america’s #1 door salesman Joe Biden).
Hello,
I bought one M1A Springfield Armory recently, and i would want to know if it possible to down trigger weight to 3/3.3/3.5 lbs ?
Does it a M1A 3 to 3.5 lbs trigger assembly and where i could order it ?
I’ve found this M1A 4.5 lbs trigger group : http://www.smithenterprise.com/spec/4.5lb_Trigger03.pdf
But i didn’t succeed right now to find lessweight trigger for M1A.
In attempt for your response,
Regards.
M1a ‘loaded’ – i want to purchase and put the NM 1/2 MOA rear sight on my rifle – Do I need to drill an additional hole for that? Is that going to be a threaded hole?.Is it a standard receiver – thanks from New Guy – USAF retired.
Here’s the actual bedding procedure WITH PICTURES. Use Devcon because it doesn’t shrink. At all.
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=106259