Fayetteville Walmart (courtesy wral.com)
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On the afternoon of 22 December in the WalMart on Skibo Road, someone stole a firearm an open carrier. No shots were fired. The thief  is reported to have ran away with the firearm. From fayobserver.com . . .

About 3 p.m., Fayetteville police spokeswoman Asia Cannon said, inaccurate information based on radio scanner traffic began circulating about a shooting at the Walmart. Officers arrived and discovered that a man had grabbed a gun off another man who was open-carrying the weapon. The man who grabbed the gun then ran off.

Guns are stolen from concealed carriers about as often as from open carriers. Anecdotally, I read of an open carrier or concealed carry  theft about once a year. I’ve not encountered a single case where an open carrier was shot by someone stealing their gun, or shot after the gun was stolen.

Some 17 million Americans have carry permits. Millions more carry a gun without a government permission slip, either legally illegally.

Assuming half of the 17 million armed Americans carry at some point during the year, one of whom is the victim of a criminal disarm, the odds against  having a gun stolen while carrying (in any given year) are 17 million-to-one.

About  17,250 people were murdered in the United States in 2016; 49 murders per million people per year. All things being equal — which they most certainly are not (think: Chicago gang banger) — an armed American is 400 times more likely to be murdered than have their gun stolen while carrying it. Use a retention holster and you can round down the odds of a gun grab to zero.

©2017 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice and link are included. Gun Watch

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  1. Because open carry is f/n stupid. I keep saying it, because it keeps being the truth. Now here’s an idea…open carry with an unloaded magazine, and have a loaded gun in your pocket ready to serve up the coup de gras. That’s a good way to clean house.

      • Who asked either of you? If you think OC is “stupid,” well I guess you won’t do that. You can’t choose for anyone but yourself. And I won’t try to tell you how to carry either.

        • “That’s why cops do it with” level III retention holsters, multiple secondary weapons (both lethal and less-than) ingrained situational awareness, weapon retention training, body armor, backup, and they still get shot with their own guns, on occasion.

        • Yeah Kevin, they’re Batman, just ask them. Thinking it won’t happen to you only brings you two steps closer to the day it does.

          No one’s invincible, cops only survive because they have civilians on their side. Once we’re not, watch yo a _ _.

          Hold up your first finger on your right hand. That’s the maximum # of people you can ever equal. Put a badge on it, a stethoscope, wrap it in a PhD, or the Pope’s wring; still just equal 1. If you ever catch yourself thinking you = >1 you are wrong. If you’re a cop, and you catch yourself doing it, you are broken and wrong. If you’re a cop, and you elevate the people you swore to protect, above yourself and keep them there, then I’d take a bullet for you to make sure you got home safe to your family. If not, you need to pack your sh_t and go to the house and think of what other else your 1+ stupid a _ _ can think up to occupy your selfish time.

          But OC for me and not for thee? hunh. Right.

        • Hey Joe, congratulations! You’re the smartest guy in the room!
          But you didn’t read what I wrote.
          Too busy running your mouth.
          Watch, you’re going to do it again, in: 3. . . 2. . . 1. . .

        • Uhhh.. . . read mine again, and imagine a hard return, or return/return after the first sentence.

          And point me to that room, ’cause I haven’t seen it.

        • Kevin, seriously? Talk about moving the goalpost. Is OC stupid, or is it only stupid when done incorrectly?

          You mentioned some additional requirements that justify OC for police. Well, those factors are all present, true, but there’s no proof that they’re all necessary. In fact, there are countless person-days (one person OCing on a given day), maybe millions, every year which result in nothing but safety. Open carry has advantages, such as speed of presentation, and perhaps some disadvantages, which are all debatable. That’s also true of carrying a firearm, regardless of method, but you don’t decry going armed, in general. Hmmm.

          It sounds as though your real quarrel isn’t with open carry itself, but with open carriers. That’s called displacement. So what is it? What irks you so about open carriers?

          Is it their confidence? Their defiance? Their brazenness? Their indifference to the tittering and timorous envy of concealed carriers longing to open carry? Is that it? Self-loathing carry envy? Good grief, man. Do your own thing and just mind your own business.

        • @ MamaLiberty
          I asked them. I asked: Hey is open carry stupid? Guess what they said, “yes it’s stupid. So to answer your question as to who asked, I did. But I already knew that anyway. I wrote the other day that I thought open carriers are dip-sh–s and if they could afford it, they’d drive SCREAMING RED Corvettes so we all look at them.

          The reason uniformed cops open carry is because they HAVE TO. How many off duty cops open carry? NONE. Gosh, I wonder why that is?

          If those of you want to be super neato cool and look like a —— <==== FLAME and open carry, knock yourselves out.

        • MLee: I wasn’t going to get into this because I don’t carry (just never saw the need), but when you say cops open carry because they “HAVE TO,” I wonder why that is.
          Is it because it provides quicker access? Because it provides a visible threat to bad guys?
          Or is it because the people who say they have to are stupid?
          I think it’s a valid series of questions.
          If OC is good for cops, why not for civilians?
          Of OC is stupid for cops, why are they forced to do it?

      • Actually, bryce, open carry has actually personally saved me from one violent encounter. I know if it’s happened to me, then it’s happened to others.

    • “have a loaded gun in your pocket ready to serve up the coup de gras. That’s a good way to clean house.”

      Did you know it was unloaded? Yes?
      The DA is gonna love that… good luck.

    • I bet this Open Carry DB was strutting around with his gat friction locked in a $14 Fobus holster. Oh wait, who else does that?

    • Open carry is great. It makes places safer by default and it helps desensitize people of their unfounded phobia of firearms. The major downside being the increased chance you will be a targeted by criminals, cops and anti human rights people.

      Time and place. Risk versus reward.

      • “…and it helps desensitize people of their unfounded phobia of firearms.”
        That’s not been my observation.
        Standing in line on a number of occasions, I’ve actually heard people comment on someone who was OC, and the comments are usually along the lines of, “Look, Mabel, that man has a gun!”
        Sometimes, I respond “Welcome to Arizona. Get used to it.”

        • If someone says, “look, Mabel, that man has a gun,” then they haven’t seen it before. If they saw it everyday or at least once a week, I’d bet they’d get over it. If they had grown up seeing it once a month or every couple of months, they never would have learned to bother commenting on it.

          POTG are a minority. For most of my life we have been a secret and hidden minority. Excluding gun friendly events like hunting, the range, gun stores, etc., I’ve only ever seen one person who wasn’t a cop open carrying. Unless you count seeing myself when I couldn’t be bothered to put a jacket back on.

      • @ Hank
        Having everyone see it and desensitize everyone? What a EFFING joke that line of sh– is.
        He says right there he wants people to see it. Really? He wants people to see his gun so it desensitizes them? HORSE SH–!!!
        I could almost buy into that if every open carrier I have ever met didn’t present themselves like a stuck up snob. It’s a nice line but it’s total crap. They open carry to be cool PERIOD. It’s the same reason you see 7th graders standing around with cigarettes smoking. They are trying to look older and cool. But what they are too immature to realize, they look like a 13 year old trying to look older and cool, but the fact is, they look ridiculous.

        I have the same attitude with open carriers where concealed carry is an option, they look silly.

        • Yet another clown has spoken. Another mealy-mouthed shitheel guilty of thinking, saying, doing, and being any and every bit as fucking stupid as he thinks — THINKS because he doesn’t know jack fucking shit and he damn well knows he fucking doesn’t in the first place — others are for exercising their rights in a way he doesn’t approve of.

          Go fuck yourself, pal.

        • Actually yes, it sure as hell does. That’s how open carry Texas successfully fought and WON, to pass open carry in Texas. You conceal carry zealots may hate it, but it’s a good thing. Think of it this way, legal open carry allows conceal carriers to conceal carry comfortably, without fear of being charged for an exposed gun. You shouldn’t be ashamed of your piece.

    • Agree. If you are not out in the woods or on the farm/ranch, open carry “IS STUPID”. If we lived in a society that open carried firearms as a regular routine, it might not. But say what you may, or argue whether we should or not, we do not live in such a society;

      • Years back, gays were too afraid to hold hands and kids in public. Now those days are long. You know how they did that? Normalization. Society can be changed. Use the liberals own tactics against them.

    • “Coup de grâce” (pronounced “grahs”) is the “stroke of mercy.” “Coup de gras” means “stroke of fat.” Enjoy carrying that loaded pork belly in your pocket.

    • The idea of OC with no mag and a CC to shoot the thief is bad on multiple levels.
      1) You need to be in danger to shoot someone in self defense. If you know they have an empty gun because you planted it, you are screwed legally because you set a trap. I.E. you telegraphed you want to shoot someone (and even if this not your intent, a lawyer will make a case for that)
      2) If you OC, you have probably trained extensively to draw from your OC holster, under the pressure, you may well resort to muscle memory and draw your empty gun in error
      3) Carrying 2 guns is overkill IMO, not worth it in most cases (LEO excepted)

      I CC vs OC because the advantages for me in an suburban environment dictate it. I like that I have the ability to OC in TX and maybe there will be times when I do. But not for this reason.

    • Anti-gunners can legitimately be called pro-rape because they insist that victims be disarmed. Anti-open-carry folks can be legitimately called pro-assault, because the mere sight of an armed citizen is often enough to stop violence before it really gets started. I know of very few instances where someone I know has drawn a gun in order to stop violence, but I know of plenty of instances where violence came to a halt because of just the sight of someone carrying openly.

      I suspect that much of the opposition to open carry arises from feelings of superiority on the part of those who have bowed down and kissed the feet of the authorities who have bestowed on them the privilege of carrying concealed — the same sort of arrogance we get from anti-gun celebrities who have the privilege of having armed bodyguards and security.

  2. I live just a few miles from where this incident occurred, although this is the first time I’ve heard about it. I mostly conceal carry, but do occasionally open carry. When I do OC, its always in a retention holster. Hopefully people that see this article who OC without a retention will seriously consider getting one. They’re not that expensive.

    • Yep — the first question a rational person would ask is, “What kind of holster was it taken from?”

      One instructor I took a course from approved of a couple of us who carried to cross-draw on the grounds that it makes the piece harder to steal. Carry that way and with a proper holster and it’s going to be really hard for anyone to take it from you.

  3. And here comes the conceal carry cult. Some of us do have differing opinions on paying our state government for the right to cover our guns with our clothes. A right that may or may not be able to be excercised once we cross the state line. Still you are right he was dumb to carry open without a retention holster.

  4. @ mamaliberty – No, not simply “stupid”, f/n stupid…its the next level past simple stupidity, its extreme stupidity. And its a free country, I can say what I want, and you can be a complete idiot and open carry if you want, that’s fine…but its f/n stupid, and I’m going to keep saying it because its the truth, and that truth is never never never ever going to change. Ever.

      • I agree as well. Whats stupid is signing up to tell the government you have a gun in the first place. Just as in Nazi Germany, the existence of any kind of permit for any kind of gun and/or its use is an invitation to the government to come and take it.

    • Yeah, no. You’re wrong and doubling down on stupid. Open carry is merely an option. It isn’t a good choice in all situations, but it isn’t complete shit either. Get off of your high-horse and stop telling people how to live their lives.

      • Maddcapp does that with every topic too. I imagine in real life he’s one of those super annoying buisy bodies who’s always gotta be up in your business trying to tell you how he knows better. Such a sad way to live.

  5. Ummm…have a good retension holster. He!! miscreants wrestle away from guns from the po-leece. Do we hear “don’t open carry ossifer”?!? Nope only in some rinkydink European nations…

  6. I have seen numerous stories from Brazil about criminals stealing open carriers’ [security or cop] firearms. They stalk the open carrier and ambush them with multiple attackers.

    Brazilian criminals are more daring than American criminals, but American criminals are very willing to attack people who they think are not cops. If you look like a detective by wearing certain clothes, holster, hair cut and have that alert/cop demeanor, criminals are going to assume you are a major threat. If you look like some college kid, or some elderly NRA member, the chances are much higher you will be targeted for your firearm.

    People who carry openly need a proper setup, train in firearm retention, have a lot of physical strength and endurance. If you can’t win a physical fight against a large man or two men, it’s probably best you carry concealed.

    You are less likely to get attacked when open carrying, but when you do it’s likely going to be worse. That constant stress can be too much for most people. You are essentially flaunting an object that criminals consider very desirable.

    • One of the biggest deterrent s , when I lived in a bad neighbor hood, was a set of handcuffs .o n my belt. An individual was creeping up on me until he saw the handcuffs, then he called me officer and explained his actions

  7. Have limits / boundaries, and maintain them, and wear a freekin’ shoulder holster already.

    I’ve posted before, it’s like Liberace coming out of the closet, you’re like “r e a l l y ?”

    CC people are only really good at fooling themselves, a cc person has more tells than a person throws in poker.

    Even the cool cucumber Secret Service dudes tell all to hell in the way they try to cover their tells.

  8. To make a general statement that open carry is “stupid” is… well, a stupid statement. Police, security guards, armored car drivers, etc. open carry as a matter of policy.

    I live in Illinois so I don’t have the option. Concealed is the law. And sometimes it’s a royal pain, depending on weather, clothing, etc. It’s wintertime so a jacket fulfills the role of concealment, until I stop for lunch and want to take the jacket off in a public restaurant. Then I need to figure out a way to stay incognito.

    But for the love of all that is holy, if you’re going to open carry then get an honest-to-God level II retention holster. To open carry without one would be… an unnecessary risk, bordering on stupid.

  9. I’ve said it a million times without exaggeration:

    One word folks:

    Shoulder Holster

    Live it love it, wear it out (on the town).

    It gives enough so that anyone tugging will have to put their foot on your chest to get it off of you, and you can drop your arms, drop on the ground and roll on top of them and they’ll let go, or get tied up to ya. Plus, both hands can stay free so you can push your thumbs into their soul windows.

    If they see you carrying in a shoulder holster, they’ll know you’re not some 3rd grade magician pretending they are cc’ing.

    CC is just obstructed OC.

      • Except that they’re expensive, uncomfortable, you have to cross yourself to draw, and anyone riding behind you has a muzzle pointed at them.

        Otherwise, they’re great.

      • Shoulder holsters can be an option if you wear a jacket, otherwise you’re still OC.
        Here in AZ, no one wears a jacket unless they either have to, or want to look like a ‘gentleman cowboy.’
        Leave the jacket unbuttoned, and you’re OC.

  10. How about not open carrying. I dont believe that concealed carrier’s guns are stolen as much as open carriers (if the weapon was in fact concealed). I dont want the attention that open carry garners.

    • Did you not read the article before writing your ignorant opinion?

      Concealed carriers have the same rate of theft as open but since open is more stigmatized by the media and idiot gun owners they blow it out or proportion to push an agenda.

    • I can imagine that a concealed carrier could be mistaken for an unarmed target. So, when a criminal runs up on you, thinking you are an easy target, they have a gun in your face before you can react. Then you have to make the decision to risk instant death going for your concealed gun or let the guy rob you of all your valuables, which includes your hidden firearm.

      I wouldn’t be shocking to find out that concealed carriers are ambushed and disarmed more than an open carrier simply because a criminal hit the lotto.

  11. “Guns are stolen from concealed carriers about as often as from open carriers. ”

    Oh really? Got any data to back that claim up?

    OC in public has about a ga-zillion downsides and not a single upside.

    • 1. More comfort, even wearing very little clothes.
      2. Ability to carry larger, heavier gun, meaning more accuracy, less recoil and larger capacity.
      3. Faster access to draw. Less chance to get tangled in your garment.
      4. Normalization. The average person is not used to seeing armed good guys and that means in their minds there aren’t any. Concealing our guns makes sure this never changes.
      5. Deterrence. Criminals like easy targets. Concealed carry doesn’t mark you as hard target. When the human predator avoids you, there is no need for “element of surprise” because nothing happens.

      I don’t OC because it’s not legal in Illinois. I might not OC even if/when it becomes legal. But saying it is stupid and there are no advantages is a bit too far.

      Handgun is not something to be ashamed of. It isn’t something to be flashed as ‘cool’. It is a tool.

  12. Open carry if you want to – but do it with a good retention holster. I rarely OC, but when I do I wear a holster with a thumb break that fits snug enough the pistol’s not coming out unless it’s drawn straight up at the right angle.

    Open carrying in public without retention is asking for trouble in my opinion.

  13. So if you try to steal a police officers gun, it is presumed they want it to shoot you and you can use deadly force to stop it (Mike Brown, Ferguson, MO).

    Does this apply to robbery from non LEO’s?

    • From what I have seen, cops don’t have to run away, they can kill someone who is trying to disarm them. Non government workers have to run away instead of shoot, if they shoot the unarmed person the DA will want to charge the shooter with unjustifiable homicide.

      DAs work with police and sheriffs, they build a friendship/brotherhood. That bond is stronger than the law. If you are not part of that inner circle you don’t get treated kindly, you don’t get let off. People in the inner circle can hold up an illegal “high capacity” magazine on live TV and not get brought up on charges.

      • I don’t know where you live man, but in most states stand your ground would certainly apply to someone trying to yank your gat. There is no duty to retreat in most states.

        • The law in not applied as it’s written, nor is it applied to everyone. If you give the DA enough opportunity to charge you, they will. They will charge you not for the idea of justice, they will charge you because they don’t want citizens to carry guns and use them to stop crime. They think only the government should be the ones to have the power… That’s why gun owners advise you to have a lawyer on retainer and carry insurance.

  14. Man. You know, there hasn’t been a good open carry vs conceal carry dust up here in awhile. I forgot how much noise this topic causes.

    The Conceal carrier side often sounds a lot like the gun grabbers (no pun intended) in this argument though. I support open carry for the exact reason why Open Carry Texas did what they did to bring open carry to the state. It normalizes guns, yes, in the EXACT same way the gay community normalized openly gay relationships. Open carry is a political tactic. And a good, successful one.

    To rail against it and demand it be banned is shooting yourself in the foot. If you don’t want to kiss a man, then don’t. If you don’t want to open carry then don’t. Don’t hide behind your shame or being a gun owner in public. Come out of the gun closet.

    This is how we win the war. Using the same tactics the left used. Open carry does deter crime, essiecially in numbers. But if you open carry, be sure to do it in a good holster, dress professionally, act appropriately, and have situational awareness. When you open carry you are by default an ambassador for gun rights. You have more responsibility than a conceal carrier.

  15. I don’t care if you OC, CC, Shoulder holster, whatever. If your Situational AWARENESS SUCKS, you’re going to eventually become a victim! Too many people are walking around in lala land with their head up their *ss, thinking they’re badass because they carry – it doesn’t matter if they’re OC or CC. They don’t pay attention to their surroundings, they get distracted by something shiny, they think that their weapon is a deterrent, they’re chatting or texting on their cell, and they’re NOT watching their surroundings. If you carry, ESPECIALLY if you carry, you should be paying attention all the time to who’s around you, and what’s going on. LOOK at people’s friggin faces, look at their eyes. Are they eying you? Do they seem to have a particular or unusual interest in you? RED FRIGGIN FLAG folks. Unless you’re my wife, your interest in me should be no more than passing, and if you’re another carrier, you should move on just like I’m going to move on. This isn’t an OC/CC issue, but while I do believe OC advertises to criminals that you are carrying, and causes issues with the sheeple who are Anti-gun, I don’t think it’s that big a deal unless you’re a douche who thinks the reason to carry OC is “COOL”. For those of you who say “carry an unloaded weapon in your OC, and a loaded one concealed” – guess what, you’re going to go to jail when the DA looks at the evidence and sees you shot someone who was fleeing in the back. For those that say CC has tells, I promise you, you won’t know I’m carrying unless I either “TELL YOU VERBALLY” or you have been trained to spot it. MOST criminals don’t know how to spot a CC’er.

    • Situational awareness isn’t quite everything, but it’s in the ballpark. This is why I haven’t carried at all lately. except in the woods: due to circumstances my stress level is just too high for me to be properly aware and alert.

  16. If you plan on open carrying, it’s not a bad idea to have a buddy of yours test you on whether you can retain your firearm in a confrontation.

    • He would need to have head protection and a cup. You should utilize a training knife as well because you don’t have to stick to arm and leg strikes.

      One good prick to the prick’s neck with a knife should get him off you.

      • The proper knife and proper technique, which can be done with most locking folders, will basically take his throat out.

        That will most certainly get him off you if you manage to land the strike and then make the cut but as you point out generally just burying the blade in his neck up to the hinge will get the job done.

  17. “Guns are stolen from concealed carriers about as often as from open carriers.”

    I would greatly appreciate a citation for this. I don’t doubt it, but just saying it doesn’t make it true.

    Also, what’s with all the anti-OC Nazis?

    • Events where guns are stolen from either open or concealed carriers are extremely rare. I actively search for these events, and they are reported at less than one per year. It seems to me there are about equal numbers.

      The open carry events vary between armed robberies and snatch and run types; the concealed carry events usually happen when the concealed carrier is beaten and the criminals find the gun and steal it along with other valuables.

      No statistics are kept of these events. In the last three months of 2017, one police officer open carrying had his gun stolen, and one officer concealed carrying had his gun stolen.


      • So, generally speaking,
        OCers are attacked by people who want to take their guns, and
        CCers are attacked by people who would not have attacked them if they knew they had guns?

        Seems reasonable to me.

      • Dean and Nevada, thanks for the replies.

        It looks to me that there isn’t enough evidence for anybody to definitively say anything on the subject of which is safer because any danger of attack associated with either method of carrying is so rare that there isn’t enough evidence from which to draw a conclusion.

        The only arguments either way are a priori or anecdotal. The direct crime related costs/benefits of concealed vs. open carry are so marginal that they are probably negligible. The indirect costs/benefits of concealed vs open carry are so attenuated and difficult to measure that it is foolish to say that one is clearly better than the other, so long as both are equally legal for the carrier (for example, open carry and concealed carry both require a license in Texas, but open carry invites interaction with the police and requires carrying in a belt or shoulder holster).

  18. According to the article guns are stolen from concealed carriers about as often as from open carriers. Concealed carry mist therefore be as equally as stupid as open carry. Whether you choose concealed carry or open carry, a holster with good retention is will have more of an impact on how easily your gun is stolen then the method of carry does. From a tactical standpoint if open carriers should conceal a backup gun when and where it is legal to prevent a gun thief like this from killing their next victim.

      • Honestly, that’s not enough information to reach a conclusion on causation. Other known crime factors need to be taken into account like demographics and other policies known to have impacts on crime rates.

        For example, California doesn’t have open carry. It also doesn’t have shall issue concealed carry. Is it one, the other, both, something else entirely, or a combination of many factors that explains its crime rate? (It’s the last one).

        • The street crime in major California cities is going up. In states where you can open carry, as well as ccw, crime is going down.

          When I open carry I use a push cart even if it’s only for a couple of items. And I use a retention holster. I have seen people with their hands full of items, shopping while wearing a gun on their hip. You are just asking to have your gun taken when you do this. There are open carry and concealed carry classes people can take. Check you local gun ranges.

          So open carry is “stupid”. I’m glad the supporters of the Mulford Act have come out of the closet on TTAG.

        • “The street crime in major California cities is going up. In states where you can open carry, as well as ccw, crime is going down.”

          The evidence that I have seen in the concealed carry debate is conclusive that concealed carry reduces violent crime.

          The simple fact that a pool of states with one policy are seeing a trend opposite of a pool of states that have the opposite policy is not conclusive proof. Alone, it isn’t really even evidence. One outlier could easily skew the whole dataset. Making the argument that it is conclusive is as deceptive and/or ignorant as the arguments the antis make.

  19. Something I would point out is that concealment for CCW fails more often than most people would like to think about. I regularly see people’s guns play “peek a boo” when they’re dealing with something that requires bending over. Usually that’s rug-rats but sometimes it’s other things.

    Now, most IWB holsters have no retention. So you’re relying 100% on the concealment factor to prevent someone from jacking your piece out of your holster at that point.

    So, as I often say of the OC/CC debate: it’s six of one half a dozen of the other. You pays your money and takes your chances.

  20. I do dislike typo Nazi’s, but I just cannot let this one pass. The author states that the odds of having a gun stolen are 8.5 million to 1. Think about it. Those are some darn good odds!

    i think he meant to say that the odds of a gun being stolen are 1 in 8.5 million.

    • Thanks. I corrected it. It should not be 8.5 million to one, it should be 17 million to one.

      The numbers are so tiny that actual odds are merely an estimate. We can only use the data that we have.

  21. “Guns are stolen from concealed carriers about as often as from open carriers.”

    Can we get a source for this information, please?

  22. I carry for personal protection. I don’t carry to patronize someone else’s sense of propriety. Given that the average gun fight is over in 3 seconds, it makes no sense to advocate for concealed carry as a substitute for open carry. Open carry offers a second to a second-and-a-half quicker draw time/time to target for the average carrier than does drawing from concealment. Be that as it may, the choice as to method of carry needs to be that of the individual, not the government, and certainly not that of some of the commenters here.


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