“At the end of the day, no matter what is going on, there will be those of us who remain steadfast, unmovable, always abiding in the work of the Lord, knowing that our labor is not in vain. Let me tell you all something this morning, I was ready to risk it all for God and I thank God that we are in a place at House of Refuge where we are safe and can continue to do it.” – Pastor D’Eric Fields in Gunman opens fire during Sunday service in KCMO striking church greeter in the head [via fox4kc.com]
I don’t know about that church but at my church On Any Given Sunday there are no less than six people concealing firearms and probably a lot more that I don’t know about so I do feel pretty safe.
I wish I could say the same at my church. I live in one of those states where the Almighty State has declared that concealed carry licensees are “criminals” if they carry a firearm (for the sole purpose of righteous self-defense) in a church without express permission from the church. And since I live in/near a Progressive enclave that rivals Berkeley, California, I have a near-impossible battle convincing my church members that:
(a) self-defense is righteous
(b) prohibiting self-defense is akin to accessory to assault/murder
I am about to make a simple pronouncement of their error, knock the dust off of my feet as a witness against them, and find another church. Unfortunately, since I live in/near a Progressive bubble, finding a church that is comfortable with self-defense may prove impossible.
(Note: I have already presented an extensive analysis of the Biblical view of self-defense, as well as real world analysis of risks, attacks, and self-defense at church, to a few key church members … to no avail.)
“Unfortunately, since I live in/near a Progressive bubble, finding a church that is comfortable with self-defense may prove impossible.”
This might be an opportunity for you. There are plenty of other worshipers who likely feel the same but are quiet about it.
If only there were a resource available where people could find local houses of worship that are non-hostile to the concept of self defense…
Such a resource would be fantastic … great idea Geoff PR.
Start the ball rolling. Register a domain like, oh, maybe ‘2A tolerant Worship.org?
Get the word out (like maybe TTAG?) you may find folks willing to volunteer to build and manage it.
You may not change your church’s mind on this, but it would help out a lot of other folks…
In all seriousness, nail your grievance to the church door. There is clear and strong precedent.
Yes!!! EXACTLY!!!!! Semper Reformanda!!!!!!!
No one of consequence,
That exact thought crossed my mind … and would be incredibly poignant since I go to a Lutheran church!
(Note: I would probably end-up taping it to the door so that no one could accuse me of vandalism.)
uncommon_sense: Label your hot dish with it at the Memorial Day pot luck Sunday.
“I am about to make a simple pronouncement of their error, knock the dust off of my feet as a witness against them, and find another church.”
That’s what I had to do at CBC in San Antonio. Broke my heart.
Ditto: In my part of the country, churches are about like gun shops and police stations; only the truely suicidal try anything there, since the concentration of armed people in those locations mean there will be large volumes of return fire.
Then again, there are so many armed people in this area that almost anyplace that isn’t a GFZ is apt to have at least one armed person in it.
Perhaps if every place were like that, there would be less crime.
A GFZ isn’t GF if I am in it; to hell with those signs.
You and me both brother. I personally have never been in a “GF”. HEHE
He (Jesus) said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” Luke 22:36
Even the Lord understood the need for armed self-defense.
If you keep reading, they report that they have two swords among them, out of the 11 disciples who were there. They were armed, even before Jesus told them to tool up.
I have concluded that people like Pastor Fields refuse to accept these two simple facts:
(1) people carry out evil, violent deeds anywhere, any time
(2) serious self-defense measures are necessary to thwart such evil, violent deeds
Of course the reason that they refuse to accept those facts are the same broken record that I have mentioned countless times: because people like Pastor Fields (and all other Progressives) operate on altruism, fantasy, and emotion.
— People are not supposed to carry out evil, violent attacks. Therefore, we are not really compelled to acknowledge much less prepare for such attacks.
— Such attacks only affect “other people” in “bad areas”.
— Violent attackers will become nice if we love them enough.
— Facing reality feels icky.
— Acquiring the skills to defend yourself is a drag.
— Carrying a self-defense firearm feels icky.
— Responding to an attack with “violence” feels icky.
Therefore, Progressives and their ilk (including Pastor Fields) keep repeating the lie that nothing bad ever happens, which means that they are “safe”, which means that they don’t have to do anything to secure their own self-defense. In other words such people demonstrate the emotional maturity of a four year-old child.
Defense of life is laying down one’s own life. Jesus said there’s “no greater love”.
Please clarify. Are you suggesting that people at church should not resist evil and just line up so that evil attackers can mow them down?
Or are you going to tell me that the church can resist evil as long as their resistance is limited to non-violent measures?
In case you are advocating that Christians should be pacifists and let evil attackers kill them:
Human life is sacred and a gift from God. Life is so sacred, in fact, that the Old Testament even prescribes pretty extreme consequences for someone who unintentionally kills another person in a freak, unforeseeable accident … and outright condemns someone who is complicit in another person’s death (such as willfully allowing a dangerous ox to roam free and gore someone). Furthermore, the Old Testament clearly tells us that God allows us to use violent force to defend ourselves from attackers.
Failing to take reasonable measures to protect and maintain your life, especially allowing someone to kill you without resistance, makes you complicit in your own death and is therefore an egregious sin.
And yes, there is no greater love than laying down your life IN DEFENSE OF OTHERS. Simply doing nothing and allowing evil people to kill you is not laying down your life in defense of others: it is nothing more than suicide.
The full verse is “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” I’m not following the train of thought where defense of life is limited to laying down your own. My understanding hinges on the “no greater love” bit… as in, you can love your friends, but if you REALLY love them, you’d be willing to die for them. It is generally understood that Christ was referring to His atonement, death, and resurrection in that verse: that He died for us because He loved us. I don’t see any passivity in there anywhere.
It just illustrates that, with careful selection (aka cherry picking), most religious texts can be made to say anything one wants it to say.
That’s why you really need to consider the work in its entirety.
If you read the linked story, and then the stories linked there, …Well, the pastor is a bullshitter. This was not a random act. Too many different stories being told, and the only one not talking is the suspect.
Living a good life won’t protect you from a person living a bad life
It might Michael, if by good life you mean well armed and well trained. I’d call that a pretty good life.
When I was a kid growing up in The Bronx, our church had a large number of cops; including my father, as ushers at the masses. There were probably ten guns or more in the church at every mass and nobody ever got shot.
The evidence for “Divine Intervention” to protect the “faithful” is spotty and inconsistent. The Pastor ignores this in making some sort of agenda-driven assertion that the House of God he shepherds is safe. True, one can find reports of miraculous happenings that save lives, but there are equal, if not more, numbers of terrible events where Heaven seemed to stand by impassively while horrendous acts unfolded. One can argue that God may save (or take) the truly righteous and allow the sinful to perish, but those are God’s Judgements to make, not ours. The best we can do is prepare to defend ourselves, or choose to surrender to the whims of an evil person. Each of us should make that choice for their own life and not at the behest of any other person seeking to control you.
” In the final analysis, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.”
-this version is credited to Mother Teresa
“We took every precaution this morning, to make sure that our members, our young people, our children, our daycare, our nursery was protected in every way, shape, and form.”
When you add “precaution” and “protected” to “safety” on his List of Poorly Understood Words, it’s time to start doubting his fluency in the English language.
I would be more likely to chalk it up merely to cognitive dissonance.
Think Inigo Montoya.
Yes, yes, but that gains no ground toward rhetorical flourish, which is part of the fun.
Tons of guns open and concealed at the very large 1st Baptist of Hammond,IN church I attend. I believe the head pastor “may” be armed. It boggles the mind that goofy predominantly black church’s don’t get they need armed protection.This isn’t the 1st century Roman Empire -this is AMERICA. If you or anyone can’t protect your church-go to a different church!
My coworker’s pastor asked the elders to arm up, and to pass the word to trusted men. It’s a pretty black church, well, 100% to be honest. Of course, Denver hasn’t been run by Dems long as long as some other cities. People haven’t been completely brainwashed yet. I know some of those men are prohibited persons, as well, and you know what? Don’t care. They’re rehabilitated as far as I’m concerned.
I don’t worry about getting shot in church because I stay home on Sunday ….problem solved.
I live in a state that is pretty pro-gun. But we do have a prohibition against carrying on the property of a church. Nevertheless, I know of at least 6 men in my local congregation that cc to church every Sunday…three of whom are LEO. The idea is to repent of the sin immediately after shooting and stopping the threat 😉
The original text is “Thou shalt not murder”. Therefore since self-defense isn’t murder…problem solved.
Given the number of faithful–of all religions–who believe that their God or gods will save them, bring them victory, bless their crops, whatever, whose fervent prayers and sacrifices are unanswered, I am inclined to believe that if there is a god(s) (s)he(they) don’t care and will not provide divine intervention. We are on our own, and it is up to us to provide for our own protection. Religious leaders recognize as much, merely mouthing the lame excuse that “god’s wisdom is inscrutable” when it comes to those who are slaughtered and those who survive. The hypocrisy is astounding. They are saying, “god will save you, except when he doesn’t.” OK then. I feel so relieved!
In the case of Christians, they’re absolutely right: God will save them. He has never failed to do so, ever.
It’s just that the word takes in a larger picture. “Save” doesn’t mean rescue from harm — that’s obvious just from looking at the Cross. Christianity is a religion where people in a sense rush toward harm and embrace it — as Christ did, embracing the worst agony man had devised against other men so as to save all.
When you hear someone religious say their deity will save them from physical or other temporal harm, what you’re hearing is someone who actually worships himself first; to them the deity is a servant whose job it is to make things nice for the worshipper. That sort of deity cannot save, because all it has is the very same power the worshipper has, because the worshipper has put himself ahead of his deity.
My belief in God (capitalized…pay attention) isn’t based on a hope of success, wealth, favor, etc on this earth. It is based in a trust in everlasting life in heaven. It is for the eternal things that I strive, not for the worldly things.
It strikes me that the pastor doesn’t understand the word “safe” in theological terms. When the scripture says we are safe in the arms of the Lord, it doesn’t mean we won’t get sick, won’t go bankrupt, won’t be in any accidents, or won’t be shot by barbarians within our country, it means that none of that basically irrelevant stuff can dislodge us from the arms of the Lord — as St Paul puts it, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
So someone armed at church can confidently step forward and confront an attacker knowing he is perfectly safe — not from the bullets, but from any eternal consequences. Again St Paul, to live is Christ, to die is gain.
And that is why the Christian should have no hesitation at stepping out and just possibly laying down his life for the others: irrespective of the outcome of the armed confrontation, he’s already got the victory that counts.
And between us and God, that’s what “safe” means.
whenever someone asks what would Jesus do, remind them that flipping over tables and flogging people with a whip is a possibility. doubly so if there is a banker in their midst.