“I feel pretty confident in telling you that there is broad consensus . . . that we do not want weapons in or anywhere around our congregations. If you do post the (no guns allowed) signs, then the message you’re sending to everyone is, ‘Gee, I wonder if anyone is carrying a gun.’ In some ways, by making people aware of the possibility, you actually raise anxiety.” – Bishop Wayne Miller, Concealed carry law tests whether guns, God mix [via suntimes.com]
Bishop Miller leads a very different congregation than the ones I have been a member of in the South.
Or, you could let your parishoners decide for themselves if they want to carry into church, and since they’re carrying concealed, nobody will know and the anxiety level will remain unchanged.
Surely, Father, you’re not saying that people would disregard “no guns” signs, are you? I mean, they never have before, so why would anyone have cause to wonder if they are now, in your church? Or am I wrong about that….?
My father, grandfather, and three of my uncles are all Pastors – and none have any problem with individuals carrying in church.
So. let’s see if I get this? This individual says that you actually raise anxiety when you post the gun free zone sign? Why? Maybe because the sign only affects those who willing to obey the sign. Unlike the criminal who views the sign as a tell tale indicator that they will be the only ones with a gun, at least until the police arrive minutes after the crimes have been committed. NNNNNooooooooooooo way really?
I teach concealed carry FOR churches! So I don’t know where the bishop gets his guidance from.
I have spoken to a few pastors that cc, one taught part of my cpl class. In his church he asked ccw holders to volunteer to sit near the back door and him at the front to protect the flock. So if you have faith in your God, and faith in your fellow worshipers, why be afraid if another member of your church is carrying a gun
I don’t want my Constitutionally protected right to not be anxious violated.
Go tell that to the Sikh Congregation that got shot-up in August of 2012, Bishop. If there’s a shooter in your church, do you want to wait minutes for the Police to arrive when seconds count? Do you think Angels will suddenly appear and put an end to the shootings? We should all have “anxiety” for being in “gun free zones”, including places of worship. Did you make-up the “broad consensus” you are “pretty confident” exists amongst your Congregation, or did you get an actual tallied vote on that? Oh, right, if your Congregation gets shot-up, it’s just God’s Will because “He works in ‘mysterious ways’ we Sinners can’t understand.” Bogus!
God may work in mysterious ways, but GLOCKS are rather straightforward.
Very straight forward.
Well, until some guy wants to recommend a handgun for a woman.
Then it apparently becomes as complicated as flying the space shuttle. And, no woman can fathom it’s intricate and complex design.
These are the 4 traitorous republicans that opposed Constitutional Carry in South Carolina.
Write them and let them know their job is in jeopardy next election (2016).
Senator Larry Martin (Republican – Pickens)
(803) 212-6610 [email protected]
Senator Greg Gregory (Republican – Lancaster)
(803) 212-6024 [email protected]
Senator Paul Thurmond (Republican – Charleston)
(803) 212-6172 [email protected]
Senator Luke Rankin (Republican – Horry)
(803) 212-6410 [email protected]
My brother is an leo & pastors a Baptist church. He CC’s in the pulpit & knows there are several congregants that are likewise armed. I pity the fool that attempts to…
Your pity would be wasted on any turd that would attempt to attack any group for any reason.
Anyone who thinks banning guns inside churches is a good idea might be wise to do a Google search on church shootings. They have taken place all over the country. Just yesterday, two brothers were shot just outside a church in Washington D.C. Sure that was outside the building, but if you can’t go in armed, you’ve got to be unarmed outside the doors too.
Less than two weeks ago, a man was sentenced for the execution-style shooting and attempted murder of his in-laws inside a church in Ogden, Utah.
There have been mass shootings too. DerryM. noted the Sikh shooting in Oak Creek, Wisconsin in 2012 that took six lives. There’s the 2007 shooting at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado that resulted in two dead and three injured and only ended because the church had an armed security guard at the scene. Unfortunately, that wasn’t the case at 1999 youth event in Austin, Texas where seven people were killed.
Hi to You All. We all must be careful that we are not selective in our understanding of the wise writers of the Second Amendment. For those wise folk obviously took firearm ownership to be of the utmost importance for liberty, safety, self-defense and survival. Given that, they took great care of their firearms on a very regular basis, they trained with them regularly to become very proficient, they maintained situational awareness, and they banded loyally together in family, village, and district; then later in state and national groupings to achieve great deeds. This was about freedom and the common good. Now 230 years later, in the age of the Internet, so many citizens appear to have conveniently forgotten the unspoken demand on all that the Second Amendment requires of us all. Namely, we must maintain our firearms, clean and in constant readiness. We must train ourselves, our family and our friends regularly to be very proficient in the effective use of our firearms. The greatest threat to gun owners and the value of the US Constitution are idiot gun owners who behave badly , post dumb / inflammatory / cowardly forum comments and mindless You Tube videos for the sake of ego. This enduring ‘evidence’ is all the gun haters need to limit and curtail gun ownership. Thanks to Edward Snowdon, we all now know that all our financial transactions, telephone, electronic and Internet activity is being recorded and stored in readiness to be used against us.
Just as the original Patriots joined and trained together for the common good, so we gun owners and citizens of good report must unite in fraternal harmony. We need to show respect and support to each other by word and deed so that we fulfil the unwritten but well understood requirements of the Second Amendment. All mass shootings have been committed by known crazies and abetted by close associates who knew of the problems; but did nothing.
Every generation must produce united Patriots or freedom is taken away from us all. Consider the 50 years since the murder of JFK and how many personal liberties have been stripped away from free people by their own government, the mega rich and rapacious corporations.
Ask yourself, “What is required me, for this to be The Land of the Free and the Home of the brave”?
No signs in the large NW Indiana church we’ve been attending. I can guarantee many are legally armed. My pastor friend told me he carried a revolver for many years but quit because he crossed the border to Illinois every day. Yeah they’re Baptists. With discreetly armed guards in church services too.
I am a trustee and head of security for my church. Several people are armed and we have no problems with it. Moreover, my pastor serves as chaplain for the local PD. He has received death threats and has publicly stated that I and several others are his “Joshuas”, just in case something goes down.
Perhaps we should send the good “bishop” the article about the pastor at First Baptist in Maryville (S. Illinois) killed during service in March 2009by a man who was a bit off. Pastor was shot in the face right through a Bible he held up to defend himself. Oh, but wait, guns were banned in IL, so this could not have happened.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/03/09/pastor-killed-2-hurt-in-illinois-church-shooting/
Here’s one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhgzcioPet8
I do NOT have a FFL. Can I register and use the new eforms? (eform 4)
What about Knives? Should we not talk about those too, Bishop? I think we’ve seen that knives can also create ‘mass carnage’. At what point do the anti-freedom zealots realize that the weapon ‘is just a tool, and that it is the hard heart that kills’?
Just like the ‘war on drugs’, legislating guns out of existence is not possible. All’s that does is remove the ability for law abiding citizens to protect themselves and gives the criminals an unlimited ‘gun free zone’ in which they can commit their chaos.
When they start applying any logic to their argument, perhaps I’ll listen. Until then, it’s all mamby pamby mumbo jumbo based on some delusional, fictional interpretation of reality – that quite frankly I think has something to do with their Freudian desire to be coddled in the safety of their mommie’s arms.
VF77
Hey – here is a thought. Maybe if there is a public PR campaign and we identify houses of worship that ban guns and put their members at risk, and then encourage attendance at those houses of worship that permit guns, . . then market forces can work. Seriously, If people took their $$ with them elsewhere, how much you want to bet that the ministers will do an about face?
Interesting that the leader of his “flock” can’t trust the flock. He’s worried they will suffer anxiety.
His flock seems to be poorly led. Maybe a new shepherd is needed. This one sounds like a liar.
From the article:
Signs are already up at St. Sabina Catholic church. Its pastor, Michael Pfleger, an anti-gun advocate, contended, “The church ought to be the prophetic voice that says guns are not needed. If we are people of faith that say we believe that God is our protection, and God watches over us, if we preach and teach all of this stuff, what is the gun for, just in case God isn’t going to do His thing?”
Hm…guess he doesn’t think believers should carry auto or medical insurance, either. After all, what is insurance for, just in case God isn’t going to do His thing?
“In some ways, by making people aware of the possibility, you actually raise anxiety.”
Wow. A priest/pastor/imam/shaman telling people that knowledge and being informed is bad. Who’d have thought it?
Wow…a priest/
Call me paranoid. But I read something else into the official statement. Not that the KNOWN owners of AWs will be passed to responders but that implied is they KNOW who HAS NOT registered their weapons. That this info will go to responders.
Civil War 2.0 indeed.
It all begins in 5… 4… 3… 2…
Please let us know when to expect the attack on Fort Sumter.
Is it just me, or does Lawlor’s comment sound quite like he’s just declared a huge portion of the Connecticut citizenry outlaw?
By the letter of the law, they are. That’s the problem.
I can’t wait for the day when psychiatrists start diagnosing adults who believe in an invisible friend with magical powers as mentally unfit to be in society.
If they can do it in Connecticut and get away with confiscation, you can bet an attempt will be made on the federal level…..maybe not tomorrow….but coming none the less…
They can try, but the local law enforcement has to want to comply. In the Northeast you are generally SOL, in Texas or other states that don’t particularly care for the Feds, it will be unenforceable.
Not too put too fine a point on it, but since these kinds of articles always bring out the Christian haters on TTAG, and for the record, this comment is offered for any/all Christians reading this.
The man quoted is speaking only for himself and his liberal Christian denomination, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which is notoriously leftist on every single theological, social and political issue. Every. Last. One.
There are a whole lot of Lutherans and Lutheran pastors, yours truly included, who entirely and totally disagree with him.
Just FYI.
I think it’s inaccurate to describe the posters in this thread as “Christian haters”. Do you really think there would be any difference in the remarks made had this gentlemen been a rabbi, imam, shaman, or witch?
What gets under my craw is when someone not only tells me how I should conduct my personal affairs, but wants the State to enforce their doctrines simply because they believe they have some insight into the supernatural.
It’s nothing special about TTAG that brings out religion haters; any time religion pops up in a conversation online and there’s a sufficiently large audience, shit starts flying. Just so you are aware.
If the “gun control BS” isn’t stopped in it’s tacks in Connecticut, it won’t be stopped anywhere! The preverbal crap is about to hit the fan, folks!
The firearms declaration forms in CT are already outdated. What if people claim to have decided to follow the law and sold their rifles and accessories out of state? It’s going to be hard for the state to disprove that.
And, one more comment, my mind has significantly changed on all issues related to gun control and RTKBA over the past six years or so, through careful reading, research and objectivereflection on these issues, so I’m confident others wavering on these issues can, through their own careful, objective research come to similar conclusions.
Robert, how about an on-going photo post of people from the rest of the republic posting photos like the one on this thread?
I’m a community college professor. I used to teach in Texas, where a law like this was under discussion. I now live in Oregon, where the urban/rural nature of the state means that the state usually allows the counties & localities to make these kinds of gun regulations (although we did have a discussion about background checks).
Prof. Hampikian’s op-ed was certainly provocative and maybe in somewhat bad taste. Still, I have to admit that I’ve thought the same thing about such laws, “when may I shoot a student?”
Obviously, few commenters have led a classroom and are unaware of the reasons why Prof Hampikian’s question resonates.
I’ve had emotionally unstable students. I’ve had mentally ill students. I’ve had students who are under the influence of drugs, alcohol, or combinations of the same. There have been times when I felt like my life was in danger because a student became unhinged. You’d be amazed at the personal, hateful comments I sometimes get on my student evaluations – now done online anonymously. Some take that aggression to me directly by yelling, screaming, threatening in the office. The amount of aggression some students can have over such trivial issues like the difference between a 77 and an 83 on a test can be frightening. Granted, it’s rare, but I estimate that I get a threatening student once every 18 months. I have colleagues that have been stalked, threatened with violence, etc…
So, if such a law passed in my community, I would probably want to arm myself on campus and would definitely want a legal answer to that question.
Oops! I take it back. I see you found, and corrected, your lapse. Apologies for my snarky comment.
Have you ever thought about publishing an ebook or guest authoring on other
blogs? I have a blog based upon on the same ideas you discuss and
would really like to have you share some stories/information.
I know my subscribers would appreciate your work.
If you are even remotely interested, feel free to shoot me an email.
Absolutely. I already carry everywhere there are no metal detectors. Correctly, that includes the public areas of my city’s airport.
Nearly all sheriffs in NY and Colorado are openly refusing to enforce their new gun laws. Sucks to live in CT or other similar slave states. Might b time to move.
And, in Connecticut, there are about 9000 LEOs and hundreds of thousands of “illegal” ARs and magazines. You do the math.
Id like to urge fellow Georgians to call or e-mail their representatives in support of broadened carry options. If the antis are voicing their opinion then we need to voice ours louder.
I do not believe most businesses should be able to ban legal concealed carry. What are you suppose to do with your piece when you go into a Walmart etc? If you leave your gun in your car, you run the risk of having it stolen. As long as you don’t make it obvious, why should you be restricted?
And while the state won’t immediately prosecute those who missed the deadline, it isn’t ignoring that information, either.
Any law that is not prosecuted immediately, either is with out a victim or an instrument of arbitrary enforcement.
A crime that a policeman can watch and not make an arrest is one of my tests for a bad law.
Olorin? Gandalf is on our side!
I sorta hope he comes here to Norway, he could show how silly the anti-gun arguments are an win over some more people on our side.
I understand the property-rights argument, but if you’re carrying concealed, no knickers are twisted, and you’re doing your part to keep yourself (and potentially others) safe. Luckily, I live in a place where “no guns allowed” signs do not have the force of law.
I wonder how she’d feel if those were the arms that were strangling her with her own panty-hose?
Comment moderated. No ad hominem attacks please,
piers had that special something, that certain je ne se qua… so did the miner that didn’t take a bath for 30 years, yeah they both stunk. I think he helped our cause though.
I like this! I still want a level gun in the future. Probably something in the .357 range as I also have a .357 revolver. Then I can share ammo.
Ak-74s and PKMs and SVDs, Shock………… If it was 1980!