Deputies: Pregnant Woman Killed While Admiring Gun Collection the miami.cbslocal.com headline proclaims. Of course, that not the kind of passively constructed story that we’re used to hereabouts. The header clearly suggests that there’s a killer to be named later. Yup, you guessed it: the gun. “The Citrus County woman and her husband were looking at the gun collection belonging to her friend William DeHayes in Brooksville when DeHayes .22 caliber revolver discharged and hit the wife in the head. Katherine Lynn Hoover, 25, was quickly transported to a nearby hospital and then airlifted to Regional Medical Center Bayonet Point, where doctors removed the woman’s baby, but he did not survive. Hoover died early Sunday.” Sad. The news org dishonors their memory by . . . sugar-coating the truth (which they allude to at the end): both victims were killed by criminal negligence. By blaming the gun NBC’s Miami affiliate missed an important opportunity to give their death some measure of meaning; to help prevent future tragedies.
And for those of you who noticed that the image accompanying this post is not a .22 caliber revolver, I know. It’s the pic the news org used to illustrate their post. What does that tell you?
sad,stupid stupid stupid ALL GUNS ARE LOADED
Exactly! I ask my old lady and anybody who is around me during gun activities “how can you tell if this gun is loaded?” And then while they either beat me to the answer because the message has gotten across or they start to explain the process of checking the chamber I will jump in with “all guns are loaded and a trigger shouldn’t be touched unless you want to make it go bang!”.
Exactly, as I was raised, there is no such thing as an uloaded gun, you treat all guns as though they are loaded, if you don’t know something, ASK before touching!
That’s the weirdest looking .22 revolver I’ve ever seen. They probably shouldn’t have been carrying it cocked and locked.
There is no “Cocked and Locked” setting on the Beretta 92/96 pistol. It’s a double action with a safety decocker. It’s either cocked and unlocked, or uncocked.
Please just tell me why Pete Beretta h8tes wymyn so much, and WHEN will someone finally STOP him?!?
/sarc
I know, I was being facetious.
To answer the question what does that tell you. It means the mainstream media wants everyone to believe the Beretta 92 is the most dangerous gun ever made. I mean look at all the gun free zone stickers and signs. It must mean that the 92 series and clones are indiscriminate killers that always just go off and kill people. That must be why the m9 is still the service sidearm, because it can kill all by itself. Now that the “wars” in the middle east have trickled down, the military is looking for a new sidearm. Must be military brass is afraid of all the m9 sidearms in service killing people state side, by just going off you know.
They should just send a bunch of guns over to the middle east and not bother sending men and women. Just ship them over in a box and they’ll just “accidentally discharge” and kill the bad guys! Winning! /sarcasm.
My short hand for the GFZ signs is
O / 92FS
CBS? NBC? I’ll assume it’s the former from the URL. An easy mistake to make, given the social view of the MSM.
Yes, they are all so lame with their blatantly transparent anti-gun bias and ignorance in all things about guns and stats about guns. Crime involving negligent, reckless or violent people using guns is always because of “the gun”. It’s apparent that this propaganda is meant to take the bad actor out of the equation and isolate ‘the gun’ as the evil element that must be eradicated from the face of the earth – at least as far as ‘common citizens’ are concerned.
It is telling how often the media passes on the opportunity to blame genuinely negligent and criminal gun owners in order to blame the guns. For them, it’s not about holding irresponsible and criminal people accountable, but about fear of the evil objects.
Just a guess but probably one of the most popular is the Single Six
Which takes a lot of work for it to “go off”
If not a single action then the pull weight on the double still means that to get that hammer cocked, it has to be on purpose.
Which brings out a point, should the NRA or TTAG sponsor some Journalist education. At least send to the writer of such articles that guns or at least and especially, especially revolvers don’t just go off.
That someone in this case was seriously negligent and should be brought to answer for it.
You are assuming that the text is correct (.22 revolver) and the picture is wrong. Could be that IS the death gun, and the reporter thinks it is a .22 revolver.
Good point! I’m not even sure which reality is more hilarious (or sad.)
Still, I carry a Beretta 96 daily and it has never just gone off. Sure, I keep the safety engaged and it rides in a level 2 retention holster that keeps all FOD and fingers off the trigger, but it’s never even ALMOST shot a pregnant woman in the head.
The pistol model is completely irrelevant to this story. Some idiot pulled the trigger on a loaded pistol and killed someone when he should have known better.
Actually that really is a 22 revolver. They took an old non working 92, and a working 22 NAA mini revolver and incorporated the cylinder and firing mechanism into the forward part part of the 92.
Ha Ha! I almost got you on that one!
First I would say that I offer condolences to those who are affected by the woman’s death. I think having a factual, detailed accounting of what happened is critical to understanding what and how tragedies like this happen, and on how to realistically avoid them. Simple safe practice that has been taught for decades would have prevented this, unless there are other circumstances.
Forgive me for saying this as it is counter to the current sensibilities to question official statements. Also what I am going to say will likely be viewed by some as harsh.
1. If it was a revolver the typical trigger pull is long and deliberate. Shooting someone in the head “accidentally” would have required deliberate action. There is the possibility that it was deliberate irresponsible horseplay, i.e. the gun was intentionally pointed at the woman’s head and the trigger pulled.
2. To infer from the lack of detail on the incident it is possible that the woman shot herself. The article only refers to the gun going of by itself.
3. This is more unpleasant that the last. It is possible that it was an intentional shooting and the circumstances were planned to make it appear to be accidental, or that it was a chance opportunity.
There needs to be more detailed, factual information reported in general that leaves too much to speculation.
Good points!
On a single action .22 revolver (eg, Bearcat, or similar) single-action revolver, no, the trigger pull (once the hammer is cocked) is not long, nor heavy. I’d put it at 3 to 4#, at most.
There are Colt single action .22’s that are rather light/short triggers as well. There’s no detail in the story here, so who knows? S&W target .22 revolvers have very nice, short, crisp SA triggers – under 3#.
Here’s something all you youngsters who are new to shooting and have used only modern cheez-whiz semi-autos should remember:
Once a revolver, ANY REVOLVER, has the cylinder loaded and locked up, and the hammer is cocked back folks, you’re dealing with a gun that has little room for error. Once the hammer is back, the trigger pulls will be short and light on all revolvers, single or double action. That’s true even on the cheap-piece-o-crap revolvers. Their trigger might not be nice, but it’s gonna be short and light. You will have none of that spring-y take-up of the modern striker pistols. The trigger will be “right there, right now.”
The only safety in revolvers is either:
– keeping the hammer down on a double action and relying on the long, 12#+ pull in DA mode
– keeping the hammer down on a single action and requiring the hammer be manually cocked before firing.
That’s it.
And, if you’re dealing with a SA revolver without a transfer bar or other hammer block safety, keep the hammer down on an empty chamber when carrying it.
Excellent advice,
I have a Taurus Titanium 38 Special. The double action pull is fairly light, I’d guess around 8, maybe 9 pounds. The single action pull is super light, at around 2 pounds. I never, ever cock the gun unless I am sitting at a bench shooting at a target with slow fire.
I’ve had this thing go off unexpectedly when I was standing, and had put my finger on the trigger ready to pull back. I had the gun pretty much on the target, but had not quite got it zeroed in.
There’s a lot truth to the rule: Don’t put your finger in the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot”
Given what you guys are saying about the trigger, so you think a revolver is a good carry gun? i.e. can the gun get accidentally cocked if it snags on clothing?
*do you
Double action revolvers make excellent carry guns. Absolutely excellent guns. They’re fast to deploy, they never suffer from the “limp wrist” type of failure to eject (eg, “stovepipe”) and if a revolver has a round that malfunctions, you simply pull the trigger again. There’s no “tap-rack-bang” drill on a revolver. Just release the trigger and pull it again. Revolvers are the original “point and click” interface.
Many of the compact (eg, “small frame” or “J frame”) revolvers meant for CCW don’t have a way to cock the hammer. You get a “double action only” pull on the trigger. They’re very concealable, and for some women, the shape of a revolver is easier to conceal than the longer, straight lines of a semi-auto.
I like to recommend older double/single action revolvers for older women who need a home protection gun, because a revolver doesn’t require the upper body strength to rack the slide. Now, before you get your dander up, telling me what women can and can’t do with their arms, I’ll remind you to read that “older women” qualification. I’m talking of women from 60 on up. Sure, there are lots of women in their prime who can rack the slide of a 1911 just dandy.
Women in their 80’s? They’re often not going to rack the slide of a semi-auto quite as well. For them, a double/single action revolver make a lot of really good sense. There’s lots of revolvers available in the used market as well, and since revolvers don’t have a grip that contains a magazine, the grips on revolvers can be changed with more latitude for larger or smaller hands.
Single action revolvers are typically used for Cowboy Action Shooting, target shooting and collecting. The old “Colt Single Action Army” spawned a whole lot of knock-offs in calibers from .22LR to .45 Colt. These guns aren’t the best for self-defense, because you need to manually cock the hammer (with your thumb or the other hand) before you can fire a shot.
Don’t worry, I’m not going to get my dander up, LOL. I totally get that some women (whether old or not) can’t always do the same things physically as men, even if it’s something that isn’t “that” hard, like racking a slide. My experience has been that in a lot of cases it’s more technique than strength. i.e. I have fairly weak hands and wrists but can still manage it, though as the caliber climbs, it gets tougher. So obviously you have a point here. And it goes without saying that people with arthritis may have some trouble, and there’s certainly no shame in that. I just am grateful and find it fortunate that there are options for older women and others who simply don’t have the hand strength for a semi-auto.
Lots of good information, here! I appreciate you laying it all out. I have a revolver, but it’s not a carry gun because it’s a longer barrel and more for target shooting than concealment, but I’ve considered one for a carry gun.
I would say this article might even contribute to future ‘accidents’. I know far too many people who don’t view .22’s as ‘real’ guns. I suspect most people will read the story and assume the gun pictured was the one involved. This is a missed opportunity to educate the public on the dangers of all firearms.
Yup, the “fake gun” used by the Israeli Mossad, Mafia, CIA, assasins, black ops, many fatal hunting accidents, enough successful DGUs to take notice.
I get it’s not the right gun for everything all the time, but it can be absolutely lethal. If it couldn’t be, it wouldn’t be the assassin gun of choice.
I would say you’re right about future “accidents” if they are so quick to call this an accident. What makes them think so? Because the woman did not have time to call 911 before she was murdered? I would at LEAST want a paraffin test to see who fired that gun, since it most certainly did NOT “go off” and coincidentally shoot her in the head. So, you only have to shoot the wife in the head and then claim “the gun went off”, for the cops to call it an accident? Yeah, there may be a lot of “gun accidents” coming if that’s the case.
NRA Rule #3: ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
This rule does not apply to your self-defense firearm. Was the twenty-two the owner’s SD firearm? If not, then why was it loaded?
Good point. And I also always hate seeing the “universal” rule to keep ammo and firearms always locked up and separate because I’m always thinking… what about your defensive firearm? “Hold on Mr. Badguy while I load this thing. I’m just trying to be safe for me and you!”
Cowgirl,
I use a system to help me remember my home defense weapon is loaded and WILL fire, if the trigger is pulled.
I simply put a strip of masking tape or preferably white tape along the top of the gun. Written across the tape in large RED letters is: LOADED!
Good plan! But every gun is loaded. (This is probably why we have that rule, because common sense dictates that most people are going to have a defensive weapon so every gun is not going to be unloaded when not “in use”)
Criminal negligence? No. Just a terrible case of negligence. The woman was going to bring life into the world… Instead, two lives were cost. I don’t know who discharged the weapon… And that picture tells me two things: 1. Scary black guns demonize firearms better then shiny silvery revolvers, and 2. Beretta 92s are drop-dead sexy.
What makes you think she was not murdered? As in, premeditated, cold-blooded, capital murder?
The same news organization used the same image (pistol) for the story about the “Docs vs. Glocks” court decision.
First and foremost, my condolences to anyone affected by the death of this woman and her child. As a husband and father, I can only imagine the pain this child’s father due to this negligence. This is why there are rules for gun safety. That said, maybe it WAS an M9, and given accounts of it’s usual condition as issued (it’s worthy of the name “death rattle” and as old or older than some of the guys they’re issued to) and was a genuine AD. However, unless it was someone’s carry or home defense piece, it shouldn’t have been loaded.
All of the rules were broken. But the one that gets my goat is MUZZLE CONTROL! Just obeying that one would have saved two lives.
And could have been instrumental in driving home the importance of the other rules. Nothing quite makes the point like a pants crapping close call.
And thus continues the stigmatization of people who own more than 0 guns and their hideously terrifying arsenals of death.
I unloaded my Smith and Wesson revolver, and tried to “accidentally” pull the trigger by common errors. I was unable leave lockup in most cases. I was able to barely rotate by stuffing things in the guard and holstering. Generally speaking, It requires squeezing the grip and pulling the trigger.
I ask my kids, “Is this gun loaded?”
They roll their eyes: “Yes, it’s loaded.”
“But how could you know that?”
“Because I haven’t cleared it myself.”
NICE!
In the reporter’s defense, they had to make a 4 paragraph story out of, in all likelihood, a one-sentence police statement such as “woman killed by accidental shot from .22 handgun”. We can speculate that a knucklehead pointed a gun and said “ha ha bang your dead!” and was then shocked when it actually went bang, but I’d prefer the reporter not do same.
It’s also occurred to me before that some of these ND stories could damn well be “perfect murders” thanks to the media hysteria about guns that ‘just go off’…
“Hey competing drug dealer, come look at my collection of stolen guns!”
Oops
Since we can all be 99.999% certain the revolver didn’t discharge without someone touching it, she either accidentally pulled the trigger or someone is going to jail for manslaughter.
What a sad horrible story. Ever gun is loaded unless proven otherwise. No levity from me.
I’ve got a Single Six. Tough to have it accidently go off. However, I discovered through careless use that if I let the revolver rotate about 30 to 35 degrees down from horizontal (it had already been cocked), the weight of the revolver with my finger pulling on the trigger caused it to fire with less than the normal trigger pull. It was still however not real easy. I then experimented with what I thought was 75 degrees below horizontal. It was real easy.
That said, I find it difficult, though not impossible to believe this was an accident. Intentional or fooling around.
THIS is why firearms education ought to be added to the common core standard. If they’re going to shove common core down our throats, maybe some good could come of it. If they knew how to handle firearms properly, the mother and baby wouldn’t be dead.
Education and training are always, always, always Numero Uno. It’s for a damn good reason!
So who pulled the trigger?
Colonel Mustard. In the Library.
Can I just say I’m sorry, here. Ugh. I seriously don’t know why I said that but it was so shitty. An actual human being died and I made an inappropriate joke. I think I got caught up in the speculation about whether it was possibly a murder and the way your comment was worded made me think of Clue. But it’s late, and at the moment I don’t have a clue. A little while after I typed it when I was reading other comments I realized just how shitty what I typed was. I thought if someone called me on it I’d apologize, but I realized that really I owe anyone who saw that an apology up front because ugh. In another context in another discussion about another thing, it might have been a clever response, but when an actual person died and that’s part of what we’re discussing here, it’s just in extremely poor taste. Again, apologies to anyone I might have offended by that remark. I just wasn’t thinking it through.
I personally (and inappropriately) found your comment absolutely hilarious, but kudos as well for recognizing it and apologizing.
Yeah, there was a time and a place for that joke, but this definitely wasn’t it. Serious lapse in judgment on my part.
Sad incident. But yet again, chalk up another death to the lowly 22LR. Whomever out there keeps insisting 22 isn’t suitable for defense needs to read up on daily gun deaths around the country.
+1000 But the argument you’ll get is… “Yes, .22’s kill a lot of people but they don’t have stopping power. An adrenalin-filled, roided up bad guy won’t stop coming at you with a .22. He might die 5 minutes later, but that’s enough for him to kill or rape you still.”
I’m pretty sure, though, if you empty the whole magazine in him, it’ll prevent either of those things, and I’ve never heard of a rapist shot one time with any caliber that maintained wood after being shot.
Plus all the badass assassins have .22’s. It seems to me .22’s are mostly in very untrained hands and very well-trained hands. Everybody in the middle of that spectrum are arguing about what caliber has more “stopping power” and deriding the mouse guns.
Like others have noted, “It’s always loaded.”
I had an incident a few weeks ago where some 75 Cub Scouts got to learn that lesson with real-world experience.
I was the Range Officer at day camp for BB gun shooting. In addition to the standard 3 safety rules, I took it a step further and was including additional rule of “Always treat a gun as if it is loaded.” Well, I had two guns fail and two replacements were brought to me from the council. It was day 2, and I was teaching them good form so I decided to use the guns in my demo so I could check their operation. Yes, I was keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction and clear of the trigger.
Well, just to keep up on practicing what I preach, I pulled the bolt to check the chamber. I was rather annoyed – and the boys were a bit rattled – to find a BB loaded. Yeah, you could say, “It’s only a BB gun,” but it’s still a gun and someone could have gotten hurt.
It gave a great opportunity to point out why those rules are there.