By Abe Froman
I’m noticing a trend. I recently purchased a Ruger 10/22 Takedown, which I absolutely love. I view every gun as a tool designed for a specific application, and what separates a great gun from an ordinary one is how well it lives up to its design goals. The 10/22 Takedown measures up spectacularly. I just had one little issue . . .
The first time I took it to the range with a scope mounted, I noticed the scope base adapter getting a little wobbly. Turns out, all 4 screws had backed out after about 100 rounds. So I took it home, double checked the recommended torque settings, and gave each screw a little extra juice this time. Doh! Strip city. I wasn’t accustomed to steel screws and aluminum receivers. My mistake.
Now, I could have just surrendered and permanently attached the scope base with a variety of inadvisable techniques, and lived with the consequences of my mistake. But the gun is just so perfect in every other way, I couldn’t bear to not at least try to get it fixed. So I called Ruger to see how much this is going to set me back. Unbelievably, they say I can send it in and they will look at it. They will even pay for the shipping label and have it picked up from any convenient location. Wow! So feeling very thankful I send the gun off and wait for the damage report. A few days later, I get the email.
“Our technicians found this firearm needs to be replaced. We would like to offer you a new rifle of the same model at no charge.”
WHAT??? Gobsmacked. They could have easily sent back the damaged receiver with a note that read “Smooth move, operator. Try crazy glue.” and been done with it. But instead they decided to send me a brand new rifle FOR FREE, even though the rifle was damaged by my own misuse. Unbelievable. That is what you call standing behind your product.
This is not an isolated incident. I recently took delivery of a big, beautiful Fort Knox safe. It was a significant purchase, and like all significant purchases, I had concerns about whether I made a smart choice. The safe came with a little piece of paper that said something to the effect of: “Congrats, you never have to worry about this safe, ever. Doesn’t matter the reason, we got you covered”. Concerns eliminated, peace of mind achieved.
And it happened again when I bought my Vortex Viper PST. The scope is great, and a great value. But the reticle was canted, so I sent it in for repair. When it came back, the reticle was fixed, but there was a problem with the side focus. They looked at it again, confirmed the problem, and sent me a brand new one. It was accompanied by a note from an engineer saying he had personally verified this one had zero issues. No paperwork needed, no burden of proof on my part. And they paid for all the shipping both ways.
None of these exchanges required receipts. They didn’t have limits on a warranty. They didn’t ask for explanations. These companies take the position that if they made it, they stand by it. Period. No hiding behind fine print, no looking for the escape hatch. And it’s not just these companies. More often that not, I am finding manufactures who have a fanatical level of support for the products they make.
If you buy a Geissele trigger and want to install it yourself, you can watch a video tutorial from none other than Bill Geissele himself. A guy who sells hojillions of triggers to the military takes the time to instruct the noob-est of noobs, step by step. Incredible!
The trend here is that all these experiences happened in my pursuit of ballistic bliss. In my not-gun-related purchases, not so much.
I say customer service is a good barometer of civilization, and the world at large hasn’t been faring so well as of late. The practices of chasing down every last penny of margin, and particularly overseas manufacturing, has led to some bad trades in regards to customer service. I think we all have pretty low expectations of how much a company will stand by its product these days, and rightly so. The purchase of any appliance, no matter how state-of-the-art, is immediately followed by the strong recommendation to buy an additional warranty, lest the device fall apart on the way home.
But in the vast, cynical wilderness of cheap imports and indifferent sales staff, there stands the American gun industry as a shining city on a hill. Or at least some portions of it. Maybe not the average LGS scene, but enough of the whole. It doesn’t necessarily have to be this way. I am not quite sure what exactly killed off civilized interaction in other market sectors, or why it clings to life in the world of shooting. But I sure am thankful that it exists somewhere, and consider it to be further evidence that an armed society is a polite society.
Whenever possible, I make sure my dollars are channeled to businesses with exceptional customer service, and I make a point to tell them that is the reason I choose them over the competition. Happily, we shooters have many to choose from. Its not something I take for granted.
Now if you will excuse me, I suddenly feel the need to go purchase a new Ruger of some kind.
Great observations and great piece! I’ve had great experience as well with Hornady when it comes to their reloading equipment.
While I agree, I still say the best Customer Service Department is the one you never have to call; the one that never has a NEED to be used.
When I repeatedly hear how good the customer service is at company “X” (or maybe “T”), I know the CS reps are getting a lot of practice, which potentially tells me more about a company’s products than their advertising.
Yes, in the case of the article above, it was not necessarily a product problem, but I think the point still stands.
Anyone who has ever worked in manufacturing will tell you that EVERY company makes mistakes, no matter how good they are. Trust me, it’s true. You will definitely find companies that make more mistakes than others, but even the best screw up occasionally.
Great customer service is often what separates the best from the rest. “The product will be great 95% of the time, but if it’s not, we’ve got you covered.”
I don’t know if you guys have ever seen ESEE’s warranty policy, but it makes me want to buy their product so much more because of how they stand behind their product.
I can tell you from personal experience that ESEE indeed do stand by their product no questions asked. Buy with confidence.
Limbsaver sent me 2 replacement recoil pads when I emailed them to ask the best way to stop a small tear at a seam starting.
I’m glad you have had these experiences, but I haven’t been so lucky. I recently bought a Bersa that crapped all over itself after about 300 rounds. I contacted Bersa about it. They were willing to replace it but I had to wait almost 2 months to get it and I had to pay about $65 out of pocket. This is for a gun that supposedly had a lifetime warranty. This is not the only time I have dealt with such issues from gun manufacturers.
Article: “But in the vast, cynical wilderness of cheap imports and indifferent sales staff, there stands the **American** gun industry as a shining city on a hill.”
Vhyrus: “Bersa…”
Well, the author was talking about his experiences with the American gun Industry. Last I checked, Bersa is Argentine, not American.
Well, the author was talking about his experiences with THE gun Industry, worldwide, and its influence on civilization, as a whole. Last I checked, Argentines are civilized human beings, not savages, and Bersa is part if the worldwide gun industry.
It’s fun to be snarky and needle people sometimes, but it’s best to do so from solid footing first.
The author specifically states, “But in the vast, cynical wilderness of cheap imports and indifferent sales staff, there stands the American gun industry as a shining city on a hill.” He in no way casts aspersions on the Argentine people. Their economy however is in a shambles as is their manufacturing capacity.
You’re confused. The article’s author wrote “Isay customer service is a good barometer of civilization, and the world at large hasn’t been faring so well as of late.”
World at large means world at large, not just the U.S. firearms industry, yes or no? Argentinia is part of civilization, yes or no?
What’s happened here is one commenter made a remark, which another seized upon to make a pointless, misguided and smart alecky countercomment. Now you’re doubling down and that second commenter’s confusion and agitation. Pure pointlessness. Just hush up.
Yes, he mentions the world at large to point out that they aren’t dong so well. An Argentine company with poor customer service jibes completely with the claims that the world at large is slacking and the US gun industry is doing it right.
“most everyone sucks, the US companies are doing well”
“hey! my gun made outside the us by most anyone sucks! you’re wrong!”
Oh come on, everyone. Do you all have nothing better to do than parse every word and sentence as if you’re some sort of rabbinic scholar? I’m surprised anyone writes or comments for TTAG, considering the level of scrutiny they’re in for.
bought a bersa for edc, bad idea it crapped out on me in about the same amount of rounds. coulda been the cheap Russian rnds though
Maybe because a lot of gun companies still have gun enthusiasts in charge or making decisions and they know what they like or dislike. I don’t see too many pit stick enthusiasts, washing machine enthusiasts or dog treat enthusiasts so when those products suck the people running the company could give a crap. Also smaller companies seem to have better service. When they reach a certain size everyone just becomes “the faceless mob” and they stop trying. They are too big to care.
Dillon, RCBS, and Leupold are 3 more just like that.
No questions asked. They either fix it, or replace it.
They will get my money WAY before anyone else.
Had a Leupold go bad one time, They fixed without charge, great company,as you said.
Had a Leupold brand new out of the box. Cross hairs would not move. Sent it back. new one came back. problem solved. Love me some Leupolds. Think I might just bet some Rugers. Been drooling over the the Single Six for awhile. Looks like I might have to get that 10/22 as well. Dang! Now i’m gonna have to get a bigger safe.
+1 for RCBS. I bought a die set that had a bushing bored a bit off-center. Called ’em up and got a new bushing and a half-dozen associated parts and spares in the mail two days later. No receipt or warranty involved.
Absolutely, customer service is a must. I am loyal to a company, gun or otherwise, because of their customer service. Recently, I telephoned a company’s customer service line and got agents in Mexico City, whose second language was not good English and I had to repeat myself over and over and spell things. Finally, I asked to be transferred to an American customer service agent, and I waited on hold for 25 minutes when the Mexican agent finally came back on to tell me she could not transfer me, that I should hang up and dial in again.
This time I reached the Philippines. I was less than happy that an American company had subbed its customer service out to Mexico City and the Philippines. Finally, I was able to get their corporate number and I gave them a frustrated piece of my mind, and then followed up by a letter.
Don’t take good customer service for granted. So many companies apparently want to cut costs at the expense of good customer service, so thank those that keep us customers in mind and in their hearts.
The sausage king of Chicago???
http://www.specialtyansweringservice.net/wp-content/uploads/bad-customer-service-video-clips/abe-froman.jpg
Where is his sweater-vest? 8>)
its not all perfect if you want my opinion. I’m still waiting for Ruger to start offering replacement barrels for the take down.
At the risk of overgeneralizing and ruffling a few feathers, I believe serious firearms enthusiasts are “high quality” people. I don’t know why, it just is. That translates to running their businesses ethically and with the best products and services possible.
I agree about Ruger. After the old man died, the new blood really turned the company around. I get excited checking their website every three months.
as an alternative to upgrading the crappy combat sights on an hungarian hi- power, i noticed an evil- bay auction for some crimson trace grips sponsored by a tree- hugger bookstore. they came to me in operable condition but sans left side battery retainer or adjustment tool. cheap.
no questions asked the desired pieces parts were dropped into an envelope and mailed post haste. i had only to phone the company and wait two rings before speaking to a very courteous representative. perfect.
when slim- twin razors were no longer available neither shick nor gillette would send me a handle that i could purchase blades for. i may be a bit scruffy by the time i get a response from wilkinson.
when alvin straight’s ’66 john deere squeaked he was ceremoniously presented with a replacement, gratis.
but the bar manager won’t give you a doggy bag if you’ve ordered the ‘special’ and don’t quite finish.
customer service, it varies.
It’s simple. Guns are a unique product in our economy. Everything else in the economy cannot be profitable and as durable. Engineers call the phenomena “designed obsolescence” economists call it “depreciation”. If a car company built you a car that needed no maintenance, everyone would be super excited and buy one, until everyone had one. Then the company would go out of business. So, companies design their product to only last so long. You can see this very easily in the growing number of plastic parts where things were once made of metal. This has a double benefit to them of being cheaper to have manufactured and not lasting as long. Now the car company builds a car, uses a bunch of cheap plastic parts, throws a bunch of cool bluetooth, stereo, video, gizmos in there and you and all your friends are willing to pay even more for it then the old reliable car. But this time, this car company knows it will only last 3 years. Cheaper product, higher sale price, short lifespan… Or in corporate finance jargon, “profit, profit, profit”. Profits climb, stock prices soar, the board of directors sees, “profit, profit, profit”. They call down to the design and engineering guys and say, “make the 2015 models only last 2 years.” The whole system creates a downward spiral. There are no rewards in our economy for quality, only for quantity.
Except Guns. There’s always more demand for guns. There is always someone looking for their second, third, or twentieth gun. You can’t add a bluetooth stereo to a gun to distract people that its made more cheaply. You also can’t get away with making it more cheaply to get people to buy new ones. Once it gets out that your gun is cheap crap people stop buying. Herd a lot of bad reviews of the R51 recently? I have. Know a lot of people who have bought one? I don’t know anyone. There is always more demand for guns as long as they are trusted to be reliable. How many washers and dryers can you buy? How many cars? I bet not as many as guns you can fit in your safe. And on top of that if there is ever the threat of a ban the market goes crazy. A cycle that car makers and washer makers and computer makers never get to experience. Right now gun makers can almost rely on a surge in demand every 2 years (every election year) that breaks records. Guns (and their accessories) are unique in our economy because they don’t have to resort to designed obsolescence to keep demand going. You don’t wait for your gun to break to buy a new one. And this article shows, if your gun doesn’t break (or they fix it for you real fast) you go out and buy more. That is what generates the money for Ruger to afford to give you such good customer service. You felt like buying a new one, even after they replaced the one you bought.
Happy to hear on response from Ruger. On the job right now wearing my SR9. While I have had Zero issues with my particular pistol over hundreds of practice rounds, knowing Ruger stands behind their quality products is reassuring. Davidson’s lifetime warranty is also welcome. If a manufacturer claims they build quality…….they should back it up by faith in their product.
Regarding your “wobbly” scope base. Did you use lock title?
Yeah, screw-glue is better than excessive torque, even on centerfire guns. I use the blue-rated stuff for .22 scope bases. Degrease holes and screws before use, for best results.
However, don’t use too much and let it drip down into the firing pin channel on the bolt (3 of the 4 receiver screw holes on the 10/22 pass all the way through, into the receiver). Screw glue can lock things other than screws, given the chance….guess how I know this?
THREADLOCKER BLUE GEL- strongly recommended for scope mounting of all kinds. It has a toothpaste-like consistency, so it doesn’t run into the action. I squeeze out a bit and apply it with a toothpick to the threads or into the screw holes. Had the same problem with my Takedown 10/22 (scope loosened after a few hundred rounds). The Blue Threadlocker cured it. If you have a high-temperature application (flash hider), use the Red Threadlocker gel. It can be removed, but it takes a bit more heat.
Available at your local auto parts store.
Enjoyed the article and was glad to hear of the positive experiences you’ve had. Wish I could say the same thing about my recent dealings with 5.11 Tactical Customer Service. Going on a couple of weeks and still no resolution. So far, not a fan.
I will not buy 5.11 Tactical Gear.
Buy 5.11 from Amazon. Best prices and returns are easy. Make sure it’s real Amazon and not a reseller.
That advice kind of runs counter to the spirit of this article, doesn’t it? If a company has crappy customer service, they should be rewarded with fewer sales. If you ignore their bad customer service and just buy their product from a reseller who has a good return policy, the manufacturer has no incentive to treat their customers better.
Customer service and the lifetime warranty are the two big reasons I bought my RIA 1911 when I was apprenticing as a gunsmith & needed a lil more hands on workin with the 1911 platform. Luckily I never had to use it then but a lil over 6 months ago I did. They sent me a brand new one no charge shipping paid both ways.
Oh, one good customer service experience I wanted to share. I ordered a front sight for an AK from Apex gun parts. One if the side was bent towards tel he sight post and had a crack I didn’t notice. When a I bent the side it just broke. I sent it back to Apex with a letter explaining I received it bent and then tried to fix it and it broke. They sent me a new one no questions asked immediately after recieving it back from me.
I never really minded that the 10/22 receiver is cast aluminum (or even that the newer trigger housings are now composite). But there is just not enough “meat” on the top of the receiver. What, are those 4-40 threaded screws that mount the rail? It’s a gun that goes “BANG”, not a watch that goes (tick tock tick tock tick tock). Add a few ounces of weight to the rifle, beef up the top of the receiver, and use some MAN-screws that go into holes that have bottoms. That way, I don’t have to worry about Loctite dripping through the receiver into the action.
Add Millett scopes to the list. Sent them a defective scope I I bought used, replaced with a new in box model with hood, manual, and new battery.
I had a great experience with Vortex. I’d buy from them in a heartbeat.
T. J.
Am I the only one who laughed at the scope with verified zero issues?
I did,too (just a snicker), but caught his meaning nonetheless.
“Good customer service…”
AKA not Tap-Con.
Just to ask, not gun related but how is Victorinox’s customer service?
I found a good Knife Shop is usually better than trying to get help from Victorinox directly. They’re able to help and nice about it, but terribly slow to get the product or parts back to you.
I have no knife shops in the area, or the cities closest, so out of luck there. Thanks for the heads up about the customer service though.
Sure. You’re very welcome. Like I said they are very nice and their prices are reasonable. My experience was several years ago, so they might be better about the turn around, now. Hopefully they caught the Customer Service Fever.
I just got a 10/22 TD as well. NRA edition with tacticool cammo.
It was actually for the kid’s 13th birthday. She won’t touch the AR yet, deathly afraid of it, so this will go nicely with her SR-22 that she does so well with.
Good post! I had a great service experience with EO Tech this year. They sent me an alternate base for one of their Magnifiers used with their HWS sights free of charge based on an e-mail I sent them asking for advice on a problem I was having.
Have not had any repair issues, except about 25 years ago with Smith & Wesson, who promptly fixed an issue with a revolver. So, I have been fortunate.
Bought some parts and accessories from Ruger and they are very prompt in shipping items from their store.
I have this at the bottom of my email signauture at work and I do all I can to live up to it:
“Service is the key to every business.” Henry Ford
If we’re listing gun companies with excellent customer service, add Henry to the list. Many times, a request to their support department is answered by the company’s president himself. Great company.
My own recent encounter with Ruger (Prescott plant, SR9C and LC9, Feb of this year) was the best customer service interaction I have ever experienced.
Kudos to the folks at Ruger.
Say what you will about their pistols, but Hi-Point customer service is pretty good as well.
It’s a good thing because their QA must be non-existent. Of the 3 HiPoint rifles I’ve owned, all 3 had to go back immediately after purchase. They came back running like Swiss watches, but why not just send them out like that in the first place?
It is not an accident. I think the firearms manufacturer know how dedicated the buyers of their products are.
Bought a 96A1 from Beretta over a year ago, and every time I took it out (about once a quarter), it would experience failure to feed almost every other round. I thought maybe it needed some break-in because the springs were too new or too stiff. A little after a year, I got tired of this and contacted Beretta. They told me to send it in. I had not realized that the year period had passed, and I had failed to send in my registration card for an additional 2 years of warranty coverage. Beretta told me they needed to put a new slide in. I called a couple times after I didn’t hear anything back. Finally, a couple of weeks ago, I call their customer service line again to get an update. The friendly customer service clerk looks it up in his computer and says “we’ve had your gun for how long? That’s not right, hold on a second.” When he comes back on 20 seconds later, he informs me that they’re just going to send me a new one because it was taking too long.
The folks at Beretta just made a lifetime customer out of me. They easily could have told me “tough luck, your warranty expired.” Instead, they send me a brand spanking new 96A1 (which works like a charm) at no cost to me. Needless to say, I know what brand my next shotgun is going to be.
For what it’s worth, I compete with a 1990 Beretta 682X Super Trap. That gun is older than I am by a good 4 years, and has had untold thousands of rounds fired from it. I bought it from a competitor, and have put at least 10,000 rounds through it myself.
Still locks up like a bank vault, and the trigger feels like breaking a small carrot. I have had absolutely zero issues with it.
Canon “L” class lenses – once you own 2 of these, Canon is your buddy for life, including them paying the shipping to clean and service (for free) a camera body that I had gotten filthy.
The purchase of any appliance, no matter how state-of-the-art, is immediately followed by the strong recommendation to buy an additional warranty, lest the device fall apart on the way home.
A lot of calculation has been done as the vast majority of the time, buying an extended warranty on anything is just a waste of money. The odds are in their favor that your purchase will not need any part of the extended warranty (YMMV.) Which means they make way more off the warranties than they do the product. Yeah some products are cheap garbage and so buying one may be beneficial, but for many others, all you really get is a good feeling.
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2013/06/08/are-extended-warranties-worth-it-harvard-debates-consumer-repor/
When you look at the repair history of THESE companies mentioned here, who went and repaired or replaced at their discretion, 🙂 No extended warranty necessary.
I wouldn’t brag on the American gun industry as a whole until the guys at Remington, Marlin, Bushmaster, Kimber et. al. clean up their act. I couldn’t get Remington customer disservice to answer a simple question about a Remington branded cleaning kit. If they don’t want my business there are other people out there. I’ll say good things about Lee reloading and the great people at Henry. Most old time reloading component suppliers like Midway, Powder Valley, and Wideners are class acts. I’ll give them my business any day even if I pay a few pennies more. So there are lots of good guys and they deserve our business. As for the rest I don’t have the time or money to fool with them.
Great article. I share your sentiment. Companies that stand behind their products no matter what are the companies I will buy from always.
And it was a good heads up for me to not over-torque the scope mount screws on the 10/22 TD I just got… I guess the answer is loctite?
Yep. Blue-242-screw-glue will do!
I’ve got a two year old Mark III. I broke the recoil spring assembly by inserting the mainspring incorrectly. It was my fault and a bone head move.
Yeah, reassembly is a strange process for the Mark III, but I know that. I just wasn’t paying attention. I called Ruger’s parts dept and had planned to purchase another one to get the gun running again. They offered to send a new one to me free of charge with no hassles at all about whose fault the broken part was – or if I had assembled it properly.
The new recoil spring arrived a couple of days after the phone call – in the mail.
I’m pretty impressed with Ruger.
You really do want quality built into the product, as opposed to having a great customer service and re-work policy. Defects do occur, even in the most stringent of manufacturing environments, of course. Still, from a long term business viability standpoint, you don’t want to emphasize doing well, what shouldn’t have to be done at all. After all, how impressed would you be with a parachute manufacturer who offered a no questions asked replacement product or double your money back guarantee on all defective products?
“…saying he had personally verified this one had zero issues.”
HOEK! That can be taken two ways!! I liked the story, though.
My Surefire X300 took a siminution round right to the bezel and broke the LED. Surefire replaced it with a brand new unit, and even included new batteries – no questions asked.
I’ll never buy another brand of weapon light.
On the bad side, I sent in my model 700 recall notice to Remington on April 12th. Still have the confirmation email to prove it. And I haven’t had any return correspondence, let alone a box in the mail.
My next bolt action rifle is going to be a Savage.
Customer service is king. I’ve never had to send any gun in but have decided to NEVER do business with several local gun stores. I buy & sell antiques & fine art for a living and gotta be good to people. “Nuff said.
Nice article – stories of good customer service are just as helpful as the bad ones… definitely helps with the process of deciding who to spend money on, and who not to.
Been eyeing a 10/22 takedown for awhile too…
I recommend the following Co.
Maglite, I drop a mini-mag [3 AA] led adjustable brightness from 3′ I paid shipping to them they sent me back 2 new ones, wow awesome.
Buck, I sent them a #110 lock blade, I broke the tip off. They replaced everything ~ handles, spring, blade, rivets all FREE
T/C, sent receiver in for upgrade [hammer safety] shipping paid both ways, AND a new free pistol grip, awesome. btw great deal alert if anyone is interested in a 4 barrel T/C Contender[not G2] set-up in both pistol and carbine, 21″ .223, 10″ .45colt [only] 16 1/4″ 45/70, 14″ .35Rem, would love to trade for this MVP .223
2 words: La. Rue.
(OK, its really one word, but I was feeling clever. The feeling has passed…)
Forgot to mention McMillan Rifles.
Sent an email inquiry and received a reply from Kelly himself in less than 24 hours.
Met him 6 months later and he remembered.
Very friendly folks down there who care about their products and their customers.
Anytime a salesman tries to sell you an extended warranty, ask him, “Is your product so poorly made that I am likely to need an extended warranty?” If he says yes (they never say yes), don’t buy that product. If he says no, then he told you that the extended warranty isn’t needed. Either way, he won’t offer you the extended warranty again, because you showed him that you are not a gullible customer.
S&W treated me to great customer service. While cleaning my M&P 15, I managed to get the head of a Q-tip stuck in the hole of the gas key. After failing to extract said offending cotton, out came the tools. I removed the gas key from the bolt and pushed the cotton out. When reassembling the two hex bolts I over torqued one and sheared the head off. The body of the bolt was lodged in the body of the bolt carrier. I took the bolt carrier into an authorized S&W repair shop. The entire repair was covered under warranty including return postage. I did not pay a penny for my own dumb a$$ mistake.
Savage Arms sent me a new extractor for free for one of their bolt action .22s. Apparently there is some issue with the one from the factory. They asked for no proof of ownership or anything. Also I live in Canada so I didn’t even know if they could help me directly across the border.
While many may talk about the “inexpensiveness” i.e. cheapness of the Hi-Point firearms, they have a no questions asked, no matter the original owner or not, lifetime warranty. I broke the firing pin on my 40JCP, I have no idea how, called up their customer service line and in 2 days had a brand new firing pin waiting for me when I returned home. It’s been eating ammo like crazy since. It is always great when you have a positive encounter with customer service.
Once I lost the plug for my Mossberg 500. Lost it. Stupid. My fault. I called CS to purchase another one. CS was happy to send me a replacement plug no charge.
A part on my “GRX Medical” stethoscope broke. They sent me a whole accessory part kit no charge. Nice.
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