New from Liberty Ammunition: .357 Magnum Lead Free Ammo

1. This is the first offering of theirs that I’m actually hopeful about.

   • My past experience with extremely lightweight HP pistol bullets in magnum cartridges point to two major problems: penetration and point-of-impact.

     Penetration will usually be very shallow. If the bullet reaches the vitals, it will be highly destructive, but it may never get there in very fat/squishy targets, or if it must pass through an intermediate barrier (hand/arm/heavy clothing/object).

     The bullet moves so fast, it gets out of the barrel before the barrel rises very far in its recoil arc, so the bullets strike very low compared to conventional-weight slugs. At bad-breath distances, this is not a problem, but at as little as 7-10 yards, most extremely light and high-speed bullets will begin to display a tendency to shoot low, and it will get worse as the distance increases (angular displacement, in relation to the sights/POA).

     It will be interesting to see if the newest offerings in this area suffer from the same shortcomings as the earlier attempts.

     • If you watch slo mo video of handguns firing, you will see that the bullet leaves the barrel before the recoil starts

       • Yeah, I’m callin’ BS on this one too.

       • The recoil impulse technically starts as soon as the bullet starts accelerating down the bore. It has to – conservation of momentum has to be obeyed.

         That said, if you watch enough slo-mo videos, you see that the shooter’s point of reference for the sights isn’t changed that much until the projectile or shot load leaves the barrel. The real change in the firearm’s position starts when the bullet is a foot or more downrange from the muzzle, typically.

       • The clearest way to show this is by using a short-barreled (4″ or less) Magnum revolver. Turn it upside down, and stand it up on its sights. The flat surface it is standing on can be considered the sighting plane.

         Find something round, smaller than the barrel diameter, preferably made of wood or some other material that won’t scratch the inside of the barrel, about 3-4 times as long as the barrel, and as straight as possible (if it isn’t straight, you’ll get a false reading). Slide it into the barrel, along with something soft like a foam earplug or wadded-up piece of paper, so the rod will be firmly pressed against the top or bottom of the barrel. This shows where the bore (barrel) itself is pointing.

         Move off to one side and look at the rod in relation to the flat surface. The rod will be pointing slightly away from the surface, with the closest point to the surface being where it comes out of the barrel, and a slightly larger distance between the rod and the surface at the far end. This means that the bore line (barrel rod) and the sight line (flat surface) NEVER CROSS at any distance.

         The only way for a bullet to cross the sight line is for the handgun to rotate slightly under initial recoil forces, just before the bullet leaves the barrel, raising the barrel enough that the bore line and sight line will cross at some farther distance. If the bullet leaves the barrel much more quickly than what the sights are regulated for, it shoots very low. Heavy bullets, which spend more time in the barrel because they cannot be safely launched nearly as fast, usually print higher on target with the same sight setting. This is usually accentuated by the heavy recoil than heavy-bullet magnum loads generate, rotating the weapon more quickly than a normal load, forcing the barrel even higher at the point the bullet leaves.

         It can also be proved easily but roughly by clamping a revolver in a vise and firing it; if the gun can’t move, it will NEVER “shoot to the sights”.

         This effect is far less noticeable with standard automatic pistol calibers, as the bullet weight range and velocities are not so far apart as some magnum revolver cartridges. It is also complicated by the barrel movement in autoloading pistols, which often tilt to lock and unlock, and therefore are not fixed in relation to the sights.

         Anyone who is a good shot, and has fired magnum revolvers with light- and heavy-bullet full-power loads, has probably seen this effect. Especially if the bullets are EXTREMELY light for the caliber, such as the old Glaser Safety Slug ammo; even in 9mm and .45 ACP, they printed significantly lower on target than more common bullet weights in those calibers.

       • I remember learning about this many years ago, I got hold of a Mauser 98 in 8X57 and started handloading. After shooting lighter weight bullets for a while, I tried some heavier ones, and was very surprised that the impact was a little higher.
         I latter found out that this was because the mass of the heavier bullet acted more on the recoil while still inside the barrel. This more than compensated for the drop of the heavier bullet being more severe.

2. J.E.D. will be pleased. Time to stock up!!

   • J.E.D.?

     • Jesus Educational Device aka Mr stainless steel S&W. 357 magnum w 3in barrel.

       If you see J.E.D. Pointed in your direction, you will get to meet my Lord and Savior promptly after the flash. Smile!

3. This should be NASTY out of my 9″ SBR! Can’t wait to see what velocities it gets out of that barrel.

4. What I’d be real interested in, is what the muzzle velocity is out of a 16″ lever carbine. Their 9mm loading gets more than usual velocity gain in longer barrels (a guy clocked it doing 2500 FPS !!! out of his 16″ Sterling).

   On the other hand, a bullet this light, and with a cavity this big, is going to have a very crappy BC, and it’s notable that they don’t publish any number for that.

   • “What I’d be real interested in, is what the muzzle velocity is out of a 16″ lever carbine.”

     Exactly.

     In a lever/bolt rifle, this could basically come close to 5.56 ballistics

     • With a big hollow point, ! wouldn’t expect 5.56 trajectory. Its going to drop off quick.

       • Yeah, I’m certainly not expecting 5.56 ballistics here at a distance. But still, it would be interesting to see what the muzzle velocity is, and how fast it decreases.

         At the very least, it would be interesting ammo to have alongside the more traditional heavy bullets, and would potentially make the carbine that much more versatile.

     • But you could get ACTUAL 5.56 ballistics for a bunch less than $1.50/rd.

       • But if 5.56 isn’t allowed for hunting and 357 is, then you have something useful here

       • Sure, you can, but then you’re missing on all the other relative advantages of a lever-action in a revolver caliber, such as interchangeability of ammo with your revolver, versatility of loads (50gr to 200gr is a very wide spectrum), how light and well-balanced your guns are compared to a typical 5.56 semi-auto, and a nice balance between speed and reliability that lever gives you compared to semi-autos and bolts.

5. For a buck seventy five apiece, they better perform as claimed. I wonder how well they will penetrate heavy layers of outerwear, such as heavy overcoats etc. and what the velocity will be after the penetration??

   • what the velocity will be after the penetration?

     I’m assuming that it will be zero. 🙂

     • OK Ralph, you got me. I meant the penetration after the bullet went through heavy outerwear, how much of the initial velocity is still available to penetrate into the meat.

       • I knew what you meant, but I just couldn’t resist!

       • See how you are!

6. The bullet itself is lead-free, but I’m having trouble finding information about the primers. Are the primers lead-free? Lead Styphnate is nasty stuff.

   • They’ve used CCI standard primers for most of the loadings I have witnessed. I don’t know about their current line but there were no particular moves towards lead-free primers from Liberty in the past.

7. $2/round?

   I don’t really see what the advantage us.

8. Awesome. Because I’ve always been worried about the stopping power of the .357 magnum.

   • ^^^Exactly what I was thinking.

9. A 50 gr. bullet that goes 2100 fps? Hey, reduce the weight to 1 gr. and maybe it will reach Ludicrous Speed.

   • My turn, A one grain bullet @.357 dia. would be a flat disc only a few thousands thick. Would probably disintegrate or burn through, before it got to the end of the barrel.

   • The muzzle flash is plaid

10. “… will give you twice the velocity…” I seriously doubt that.

    I get +1300’/sec from a 4″ 686. They claim ~2,100’/sec with a 50 grain bullet? How long is the barrel they’re using?

    • I believe the barrel length for their testing falls somewhere between “are you feeling lucky” and “it shoots through schools”.

      • Thanks, Bdub. I like that one 🙂

    • They claimed 2000 fps from 4″ barrels for their 9x19mm load – and when people chrono’d it, that was what they got.

      It’s not really hard to make it go faster by making it that much lighter. It’s kinda simple physics.

    • Yes, they seem to be comparing themselves to many of the watered down loadings popular today.

11. In the past I have seen terrible expansion using copper bullets unless they were shot clean into the media. Put clothing, drywall, plywood, sheet metal, glass, etc, in front of the media and it was total fail to expand. Big deep pockets in the bullet made it worse.
    These may be interesting to shoot out of my carbine though. At that velocity they would even set off explosive targets.

    • There ya go! If you’re going to piss away $30 on Tannerite, you may as well use a $2 projectile!

      Splitting firewood through chemistry is fun, but it ain’t cheap.

12. How would the accuracy be with rifling meant for 125 grain bullets?

    • Accuracy should be fine. Barrel rifling twist rate is typically for a maximum weight, slowest speed bullet. Anything lighter or faster will be even more stable.

    • Twist rates are actually more a function of the length of the bullet, not as much the weight. Weight does matter, of course, but since the advent of all-copper pills, research has shown that the old Greenhilll’s formula tends to under-twist barrels for the new VLD pills that are quite long for their weight.

13. My past opinions of hyper weight ammo stands. I doubt it will work as advertised, and expect it will create shallow wounds. I’m looking forward to STB documenting results. There are good reasons that calibers have operating weights and velocities required to pass the FBI tests.

    Similarly, rifle rounds have relatively standard velocities whereby they can push a bullet to velocities sufficient for expansion without breaking the bullet to pieces. In varmint rounds, explosive can be desirable. That’s how I believe these will work.

    I think the most damage this ammo will do is to the checkbook.

    • It wont hurt your checkbook too much.
      For what it is its very reasonably priced.
      As to a shallow wound………….maybe.
      But my reason for carrying Liberty is to not have much of a chance of over penetration indoors. I have found it in all calibers used light recoiling and accurate too.
      Be it my home or in my store.

    • LOL! “Most of the damage will be to the check book!” I suspect all of us POTG have experienced those devastating effects.
      I think your probably right about the bullet making a large entry wound without much penetration. But think about how big of a hole you could put in your assailants overcoat in the winter!

14. Ive been using their loading in all my carry guns for about a year now.
    In a few words.
    Jay and his guns are very happy to have it.
    I hope to never have to use it.
    Now I have yet another load to get and play with for my S&W Model 66 magna ported 2.5 inched gun.
    My 1st and favorite all time gun.
    Plus on top of it all Liberty is a Florida based company and I support them whole heartily.
    I <3 Liberty Civil Defense………………………best self defense ammo yet made for a civilians in my opinion.
    They have a dang nice T-shirt too. Which was a pleasant surprise with my last order.

15. As I’ve started hunting in CA I’m gaining experience with non lead ammo. In my .243 the copper 80 grainers behave just exactly like their leaded counterparts. I get better patterns with the steel shot in my 12 and 20 and the patterns seem to hold better at range.

    Handguns are mre difficult, mostly because of a lack of choices. That may ease up as the finale date for all CA to go non lead approaches.

    So far in my handguns I’ve used the all copper buffalo bore .38 110 grain +p load. It’s a good load but like all BB loads it’s a tad warmish. I’ve decided to pick up a .357 to ease up on the wear on my .38 smiths.

    I also got a bronze bullet for my 9mm sigma. It’s a 90 grainer and looks like a bullet shaped turd. But it works.

16. *Yawn*,,,,,, these guys again ?
    (Insert Barnum Quote)

17. I have two Ruger’s, GP100, and SP101. These rounds jammed the chambers on both, specifically the SP. Had to be punched out. Bad batch? Maybe. But, won’t go through that again.

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